Full Version: "We Had Abortions" (Ms. Magazine)
Here is the story:
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Here is another strongly negative response to this situation.
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That's one way to interpret the list of names. Another way to interpret it might be that women who have had abortions are not inhuman monsters, but your mothers, sisters, and daughters. To be debated:
Will the publication of this list aid the pro-choice position, or the pro-life position?
(If anyone wishes to add her name to the list, or to show your support for the pro-choice position, here is a link.)
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. . .Ms. magazine is releasing its fall issue next week with a cover story titled “We Had Abortions,” accompanied by the names of thousands of women nationwide who signed a petition making that declaration.
. . .
Even before the issue reaches newsstands Oct. 10, anti-abortion activists have been decrying it. Judie Brown, president of the American Life League, wrote in a commentary that when she saw a Ms. announcement of the project, “the evil practically jumped right off the page.”
. . .
Even before the issue reaches newsstands Oct. 10, anti-abortion activists have been decrying it. Judie Brown, president of the American Life League, wrote in a commentary that when she saw a Ms. announcement of the project, “the evil practically jumped right off the page.”
Here is another strongly negative response to this situation.
Link
QUOTE
"I didn't feel like having another child, so I killed my baby," seems to be what signers of the Ms. list are saying.
That's one way to interpret the list of names. Another way to interpret it might be that women who have had abortions are not inhuman monsters, but your mothers, sisters, and daughters. To be debated:
Will the publication of this list aid the pro-choice position, or the pro-life position?
(If anyone wishes to add her name to the list, or to show your support for the pro-choice position, here is a link.)
Link
Will the publication of this list aid the pro-choice position, or the pro-life position?
I'll go with pro-choice as getting a bump off the article. The basic question, politically speaking, is whether women retain this option or are restricted from it by law.
I don't know of many people who will let go of an option because someone else doesn't want them to have it.
Oh, I know the arguments: We don't have the option to murder each other by law too. Yeah but we don't define abortion as murder in this society. Well, we should! No way!
Bottom line though is that women have this option, exercise the option, have diverse reasons why they take this option, and it's really nobody's dirty dang business to know the details. That is, unless the women volunteer their stories.
I think any honest dialog on this experience is valuable, both for keeping the option and for understanding what it means to take the option.
Removing the option by law will shut everyone up. I guess then we can pretend to live in a nice, orderly world as defined by someone's story books. Yet the option will still be there, just as an illegal one, and nobody's going to be talking.
Of special value are the stories that describe the trauma involved in abortion. Yep, it's really something you want to avoid if possible, and this knowledge ought to be enough to make everyone more careful about procreating. This should also encourage effective birth control, although some people believe birth control is bad too. I'm not sure what to do with these types. Mandatory parenthood by law?
I'll go with pro-choice as getting a bump off the article. The basic question, politically speaking, is whether women retain this option or are restricted from it by law.
I don't know of many people who will let go of an option because someone else doesn't want them to have it.
Oh, I know the arguments: We don't have the option to murder each other by law too. Yeah but we don't define abortion as murder in this society. Well, we should! No way!
Bottom line though is that women have this option, exercise the option, have diverse reasons why they take this option, and it's really nobody's dirty dang business to know the details. That is, unless the women volunteer their stories.
I think any honest dialog on this experience is valuable, both for keeping the option and for understanding what it means to take the option.
Removing the option by law will shut everyone up. I guess then we can pretend to live in a nice, orderly world as defined by someone's story books. Yet the option will still be there, just as an illegal one, and nobody's going to be talking.
Of special value are the stories that describe the trauma involved in abortion. Yep, it's really something you want to avoid if possible, and this knowledge ought to be enough to make everyone more careful about procreating. This should also encourage effective birth control, although some people believe birth control is bad too. I'm not sure what to do with these types. Mandatory parenthood by law?
Will the publication of this list aid the pro-choice position, or the pro-life position?
Probably the pro-choice position, which is why pro-life groups are up in arms about it.
I thought the consensus was that abortion should be available, but rare. This is basically an advertisement saying that "abortion is okay". Not a last resort, but a common, acceptable practice. These women are saying, by signing the petition, that they are unashamed of killing their baby.
Even most pro-choice advocates would say that abortion should be a last resort, not a first resort. I think any decision to have an abortion should include a reluctance and a small bit of guilt that the person had no other options. To say that you are proud to have had an abortion is just disgusting.
I understand that there are reasons to choose that option, but the choice should not be made with pride for goodness sake.
From the MSNBC article:
This kind of thing makes me sad. She saw no alternative to abortion? The selfishness of here decision stands out starkly. I understand her decision, but for God's sake have some humility. Have some remorse that you chose yourself over your unborn baby.
At least this woman acknowledges that the decision was "hard". But the fact remains she killed her baby not because she didn't want a baby or didn't have the means to provide for it, but because it wasn't perfect.
God help her if her mother develops terminal cancer or Alzheimer's.
This woman doesn't say why she had an abortion, despite the fact that she wanted to have another baby. Her attitude is the best, however, with an acknowledgement of the difficulty and the emotional burden that women who choose this path will have for the rest of their lives.
The point is that when the social stigma associated with an activity is lessened, incidence of the activity increases. Here we have women saying it's okay to have abortions. They don't talk much about the long term issues, especially emotional, that are involved.
Probably the pro-choice position, which is why pro-life groups are up in arms about it.
I thought the consensus was that abortion should be available, but rare. This is basically an advertisement saying that "abortion is okay". Not a last resort, but a common, acceptable practice. These women are saying, by signing the petition, that they are unashamed of killing their baby.
Even most pro-choice advocates would say that abortion should be a last resort, not a first resort. I think any decision to have an abortion should include a reluctance and a small bit of guilt that the person had no other options. To say that you are proud to have had an abortion is just disgusting.
I understand that there are reasons to choose that option, but the choice should not be made with pride for goodness sake.From the MSNBC article:
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Jones said she got an abortion 10 years ago — enduring harassment from protesters when she entered the clinic — in order to finish high school. She went on to become the first member of her family to graduate from college, and hopes at some point to attend law school.
“I wanted to do something bigger with myself — I didn’t want to be stopped by anything,” she said in a telephone interview.
“I wanted to do something bigger with myself — I didn’t want to be stopped by anything,” she said in a telephone interview.
This kind of thing makes me sad. She saw no alternative to abortion? The selfishness of here decision stands out starkly. I understand her decision, but for God's sake have some humility. Have some remorse that you chose yourself over your unborn baby.
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Another signatory, Debbie Findling of San Francisco, described her difficult decision last year to have an abortion after tests showed that she would bear a son with Down syndrome.
“I felt it was my right to make the decision, but having that right doesn’t make the decision any easier,” she said. “It was the hardest decision I’ve ever made.”
“I felt it was my right to make the decision, but having that right doesn’t make the decision any easier,” she said. “It was the hardest decision I’ve ever made.”
At least this woman acknowledges that the decision was "hard". But the fact remains she killed her baby not because she didn't want a baby or didn't have the means to provide for it, but because it wasn't perfect.
God help her if her mother develops terminal cancer or Alzheimer's.QUOTE
Findling, 42, is married, with a 5-year-old daughter, and has been trying to get pregnant again while pursuing her career as a philanthropic foundation executive.
She says too many of her allies in the abortion-rights movement tend to minimize, at least publicly, the psychological impact of abortion.
“It’s emotionally devastating,” she said in a phone interview. “I don’t regret my decision — but I regret having been put in the position to have to make that choice. It’s something I’ll live with for the rest of my life.”
She says too many of her allies in the abortion-rights movement tend to minimize, at least publicly, the psychological impact of abortion.
“It’s emotionally devastating,” she said in a phone interview. “I don’t regret my decision — but I regret having been put in the position to have to make that choice. It’s something I’ll live with for the rest of my life.”
This woman doesn't say why she had an abortion, despite the fact that she wanted to have another baby. Her attitude is the best, however, with an acknowledgement of the difficulty and the emotional burden that women who choose this path will have for the rest of their lives.
The point is that when the social stigma associated with an activity is lessened, incidence of the activity increases. Here we have women saying it's okay to have abortions. They don't talk much about the long term issues, especially emotional, that are involved.
Will the publication of this list aid the pro-choice position, or the pro-life position?
I think this will clearly add fuel to the fire of the pro-life movement and I would offer up Amlord's post as exhibit 'A'.
In it the full pro-life position gets to be used with anecdotal supporting examples. The strong language that effectively lays out his views includes the words or phrases "unashamed", "killing their baby', "proud to have an abortion", "unborn baby", and "killed her baby".
For many more moderate supporters of abortion rights in this country, aside from the "baby killer" aspect of the tone, AM is pointing out some inconvenient truths about the way abortion is often used in the United States. Including the IMO very disturbing trend of testing for Down's syndrome in the womb. I was astounded the first time I was given this option and asked our physician what I was supposed to do with the results of this test and received an uncomfortable silence in response.
While I see a value in showing the solidarity of a procedure used so often in America today so that many people can see that they are not alone in using that choice. I see no tremendous comfort in that fact myself having been involved in the procedure directly at least once depending on how you count. I know that this is a very prevalent choice that is made in this country, and most of the women I know well have had at least one abortion.
This report will be used by the anti-feminist and pro-life movements as proof of the moral bankruptcy of the pro-choice movement, even while those people who decry the existence of this legal choice shout out from among a population that has many people who have opted for the procedure or as a male have been directly or indirectly involved with the procedure.
I think this will clearly add fuel to the fire of the pro-life movement and I would offer up Amlord's post as exhibit 'A'.
In it the full pro-life position gets to be used with anecdotal supporting examples. The strong language that effectively lays out his views includes the words or phrases "unashamed", "killing their baby', "proud to have an abortion", "unborn baby", and "killed her baby".
For many more moderate supporters of abortion rights in this country, aside from the "baby killer" aspect of the tone, AM is pointing out some inconvenient truths about the way abortion is often used in the United States. Including the IMO very disturbing trend of testing for Down's syndrome in the womb. I was astounded the first time I was given this option and asked our physician what I was supposed to do with the results of this test and received an uncomfortable silence in response.
While I see a value in showing the solidarity of a procedure used so often in America today so that many people can see that they are not alone in using that choice. I see no tremendous comfort in that fact myself having been involved in the procedure directly at least once depending on how you count. I know that this is a very prevalent choice that is made in this country, and most of the women I know well have had at least one abortion.
This report will be used by the anti-feminist and pro-life movements as proof of the moral bankruptcy of the pro-choice movement, even while those people who decry the existence of this legal choice shout out from among a population that has many people who have opted for the procedure or as a male have been directly or indirectly involved with the procedure.
( Been off for a week, am now back in Oxford for the next year... God I hate moving...)
In the United States at the moment, 90% of the people who are pro-choice will never, ever be anything other than pro-choice, and 90% of the people who are pro-life will never ever be anything other than pro-life. Both sides will steadfastly refuse to aknowledge that the other side has some logical merit, both sides will continue to see the issue through their own personal lens.
As Eyore says, Amlord's post above is the perfect example. Even ignoring the 'baby-killing' terminology, the whole post is couched in moral condemnation and assumptions about what these women 'should feel', and 'should think'.
Mind you, though Amlord provides the perfect example of those who so easily judge others in this debate, the same is true for the other side as well.
As to the article, my opinion is that the list of people who have had abortions may provide a small boost for the pro-life movement, but it wont change the minds of the committed or the fanatic.
In the United States at the moment, 90% of the people who are pro-choice will never, ever be anything other than pro-choice, and 90% of the people who are pro-life will never ever be anything other than pro-life. Both sides will steadfastly refuse to aknowledge that the other side has some logical merit, both sides will continue to see the issue through their own personal lens.
As Eyore says, Amlord's post above is the perfect example. Even ignoring the 'baby-killing' terminology, the whole post is couched in moral condemnation and assumptions about what these women 'should feel', and 'should think'.
Mind you, though Amlord provides the perfect example of those who so easily judge others in this debate, the same is true for the other side as well.
As to the article, my opinion is that the list of people who have had abortions may provide a small boost for the pro-life movement, but it wont change the minds of the committed or the fanatic.
QUOTE(Vermillion @ Oct 4 2006, 10:39 AM) 
Mind you, though Amlord provides the perfect example of those who so easily judge others in this debate, the same is true for the other side as well.
The other side usually doesn't "judge others". All the other side wants is to be able to make decisions regarding their bodies in accordance with their own beliefs and moral principles - not somebody else's.
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Her attitude is the best, however, with an acknowledgement of the difficulty and the emotional burden that women who choose this path will have for the rest of their lives.
It is your personal opinion that her attitude is "the best". It is also your personal opinion that "women who chose this path" live with it for the rest of their lives. Some do, some don't. As far as I am concerned, it's definitely not up to me, a male, to know what thoughts or attitudes a female should have in such situations. My gender guarantees that I myself will never be in that situation - therefore I have "some humility" to refrain from offering condemnations.
QUOTE(Vermillion @ Oct 4 2006, 10:39 AM)
As Eyore says, Amlord's post above is the perfect example. Even ignoring the 'baby-killing' terminology, the whole post is couched in moral condemnation and assumptions about what these women 'should feel', and 'should think'.
Mind you, though Amlord provides the perfect example of those who so easily judge others in this debate, the same is true for the other side as well.
I had this conversation just yesterday about making assumptions about people's backgrounds. I have known girls that have had multiple abortions, starting as young as 15 years old. I know the pain they go through when they see children and wonder if their decision was the right one.
My daughter was conceived while I was in college. We could have chosen to the abortion route. I was young and poor, no job and this unborn "baby" could have ruined my life. We never considered the abortion option--it never came up until well into the pregnancy when the mother asked me my thoughts.
I know the hardships that accompany unplanned pregnancy. I know the burdens that it places not only on the parents, but on the families involved. It is not moral condemnation to assert that people make choices in their lives and they live by the consequences of those decisions. I'm thankful every day that I made the right decision twelve years ago.
I'm expressing my opinion here. I believe that sometimes decisions need to be made which are not the best path. I understand that. Some people do make the decision that for medical or personal reasons, the baby that they have conceived cannot be carried to term. Fine. But don't downplay the emotional and psychological effects that this decision will have down the road. Don't insinuate that it's an easy decision that you'd make again. What message does that send to young people not yet in that dire situation? "No worries, I can always get an abortion."
Norma McCorvey (Jane Roe, from Roe v. Wade), is now staunchly pro-life and active in "Operation Rescue" because of the emotional damage that abortion causes for women.
Sometimes in life you need to make hard decisions. We shouldn't downplay them. Likewise, we shouldn't portray to others that they were easy or that we would automatically make them again.
We need to be honest about the reasons why women have abortions. In the US, it isn't about the health of the mother. It is a matter of choice and convenience. 23% of abortions are because the mother wants to postpone childbearing. 64% are because the mother does not want to have children. [This is for 15-49 year old women who are married.] Among all US women who've had abortions, 25.5% were because the mother wanted to delay child bearing. 8% were because the woman wanted no more children. 21% for financial reasons, 11% because having a baby would disrupt eduction or job, 14% because of relationship problems, 12% because the mother was too young or the family objected. Only 6% were because of maternal or fetal health.
The point is that abortion is a choice, one not to be made lightly.
I have enough time for a quick response.
You're entitled to your opinion. However, as you just demonstrated, the flip side of your opinion is that not all women regret their abortion and you take issue with that. There is a difference between looking forward to an abortion, which I don't think any woman does regardless of her reasons for having an abortion, and not regretting having an abortion. Are those women you quoting downplaying what happened to them afterwards, or is the rub that they didn't experience what in your view is the correct response to an abortion?
Pro-life supporters can be morally consistent and others can still disagree with their positions. I think this roll call is a wonderful idea. There are plenty of websites chronicalling the post-abortion guilt of women who've undergone the procedure. Telling women who are thinking about having an abortion they don't have any other choice but to regret their decision is persuasion, not proof of an unavoidable moral reflex. It's about time positive reactions from women who've had abortions are exposed.
QUOTE(Amlord @ Oct 4 2006, 12:07 PM)
I'm expressing my opinion here. ...don't downplay the emotional and psychological effects that this decision will have down the road. Don't insinuate that it's an easy decision that you'd make again. What message does that send to young people not yet in that dire situation? "No worries, I can always get an abortion."
You're entitled to your opinion. However, as you just demonstrated, the flip side of your opinion is that not all women regret their abortion and you take issue with that. There is a difference between looking forward to an abortion, which I don't think any woman does regardless of her reasons for having an abortion, and not regretting having an abortion. Are those women you quoting downplaying what happened to them afterwards, or is the rub that they didn't experience what in your view is the correct response to an abortion?
Pro-life supporters can be morally consistent and others can still disagree with their positions. I think this roll call is a wonderful idea. There are plenty of websites chronicalling the post-abortion guilt of women who've undergone the procedure. Telling women who are thinking about having an abortion they don't have any other choice but to regret their decision is persuasion, not proof of an unavoidable moral reflex. It's about time positive reactions from women who've had abortions are exposed.
QUOTE(Amlord @ Oct 4 2006, 05:07 PM)
I know the hardships that accompany unplanned pregnancy. I know the burdens that it places not only on the parents, but on the families involved. It is not moral condemnation to assert that people make choices in their lives and they live by the consequences of those decisions. I'm thankful every day that I made the right decision twelve years ago.
Good for you, that shows you made the right decision, for you. Furthermore I applaud your decision, it cannot have been easy, nor can the consequences of it be easy. That is why pro-choice people want women to be able to make that choice, to have an abortion, or to NOT have an abortion.
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Sometimes in life you need to make hard decisions. We shouldn't downplay them. Likewise, we shouldn't portray to others that they were easy or that we would automatically make them again.
I will accept that, and go a step nfurther. We should not pretend that our decisions reflect the decisions of others. Some who make this choice may have difficulty with it afterwards. Some may not. I can speak to at least one who never looked back and for whom it has every single day since still remained the right decision to terminate. That is in NO way to deminish the validity of YOUR decision, but each person to their own.
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The point is that abortion is a choice, one not to be made lightly.
I don't think that ANY pro-choice person would have the slightest problem with that position. I suspect however a lot of pro-life people would.
QUOTE(Eeyore @ Oct 4 2006, 09:59 AM)
Will the publication of this list aid the pro-choice position, or the pro-life position?
I think this will clearly add fuel to the fire of the pro-life movement and I would offer up Amlord's post as exhibit 'A'.
In it the full pro-life position gets to be used with anecdotal supporting examples. The strong language that effectively lays out his views includes the words or phrases "unashamed", "killing their baby', "proud to have an abortion", "unborn baby", and "killed her baby".
I think Amlord had a very good point. It seems to come down to the idea that the act of abortion remain removed from the act of killing a child. I'm one of those 10% who changed my opinion concerning the aborton debate, and I did so for the simple reason that when the fetus is wanted it is a joyful little baby bundle, and when unwanted it's just a bunch of cells, and when a pregnant woman is brutally slain the call goes out to prosecute the killer for two murders, not one. Well, if it's a baby most of the time, shouldn't it be a baby all of the time? This article will only stir the flames a little more when it comes to the abortion debate in this country and provide fuel for both sides. And while the debate goes on we'll continue to practice a quiet little genocide in this country.
QUOTE(Victoria Silverwolf @ Oct 3 2006, 11:31 PM)
Will the publication of this list aid the pro-choice position, or the pro-life position?
My impression is that the pro-abortion folks think that this type of thing helps their point-of-view. I am thinking of the I Had an Abortion T-Shirt which was produced by Planned Parenthood for the 30th anniversary of Roe V Wade.
As to the cultural impact, Ms. Magazine is pretty much an echo chamber. The magazine hides its circulation numbers pretty well, which is usually a sign that it's pretty small, probably mid five-figures. According to their rate card, you can buy a full-page, color ad in Ms. for $5500. I've got a press kit here from Playboy (sweet irony - title is men living their dreams) right here and their circulation is over 3 million, while a full-page ad costs $150,000. Ad rates are generally based on circulation, with a premium for coveted niches like rich folks and such.
Given the small, niche circulation of Ms., if this story has legs at all, it is because it's the kind of story that plays well with morning TV. Rosie O'Donnell, Meridith Viera et al will no doubt be fascinated, but very few Americans will ever read or see 'the list.'
Net impact - nil for either side.
QUOTE
Will the publication of this list aid the pro-choice position, or the pro-life position?
I don't feel this campaign is meant to aid the position of the pro-choice movement in the manner most are responding to here. It is meant instead to put the debate into context, meaning how our rights as women are being served today compared to how they were in 1972, it is in protest to how we are loosing our rights. I am a little surprised no one picked up on this but in 1972 when the magazine first published a list like this one abortion was illegal and now today it is again, in South Dakota. What these women have said can't be said now for women who live in South Dakota.
Ms. Magazine is trying to encourage those of us who already respect a woman's personal right to choose to step forward and say so. It is a reminder to us that it is not about shame and secrets but instead about women's rights and how we have to protect them.
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