From Trevor Bothwell:


These types of comments could be reiterated about people like Colin Powell, etc... but doubt that's necessary to quote.


Questions for Debate:

1. Can a black American have good reason to be a Republican?

2. Is it ok to call Black Republicans ephitets such as "uncle Tom" or "oreo"? Are these accurate and deserved remarks?

1. Of course. If an individual (in this specific case a Afro-American) agrees with the ideology and the political program of the Republicans he is of course free to become an active member of the party.

2. No of course it is not ok to call Republicans of Afro-American descent "uncle Tom" or "oreo". People who say these things show a lack of respect and decency.

I agree with Renger.

It is as if these questions almost answer themselves.

To those who have made some of the above comments about Michael Steele in Aevans176's opening post these questions don't seem to answer themselves do they?

Answering the debate questions:

1. Of course..

2. It seems those who are using these names seem to be political opponents from the opposite side as Michael Steele, and they feel they are justified in using them. So would those who say it's not appropriate to use these terms still support them as candidates?

If this were the only issue, probably not, but it's not the only issue.

Unless someone lives and votes in Maryland, this is a moot point.

Three weeks from the election, it looks as if the Democrat is ahead.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/20...e_race-114.html

BTW: aevans176 you did not provide a link to your source.

Questions for Debate:

1. Can a black American have good reason to be a Republican?

2. Is it ok to call Black Republicans ephitets such as "uncle Tom" or "oreo"? Are these accurate and deserved remarks?

[/quote]

I think the more appropriate question is--what reason would a black American have to be Republican. Given this idea that the Democrats have the persona of trying to help the 'common man,' that they are the progressive, integrate-everyone party, is it ok for a black American to side with the party that has the slave-master persona (or had it in its past) even if the person has conservative values on most other issues.

And while I'm not a fan of name-calling, there is somoething to be said about the truth behind terms such as Oreo. As an Indian American, I feel more "oreo-esque" than some of the other people in my ethnic community. It's an apt phrase that doesn't have a polite counterpart.

Ok I don't understand.. Are you saying somebody cannot support an individual unless they live in their state? I said supporters not constituents, there is a difference.

The link you wanted



Geez BoF, I thought you were more politically savvy and wouldn't need somebody to link such a story that is easily found.

Sure, you can send him money if you like, but I’m not sure any other type of support means very much.

Steele’s webpage has a “platform” that seems progressive on some issues. I agree with him, when he criticizes No Child Left Behind for teaching to the test.

http://www.steeleformaryland.com/Booklet2.pdf

PDF File

Steele would not be the worst thing that ever happened to the Senate. On the cuirrent scene, Kansas Senator Sam Brownback has a lock on that. Only my opinion, of course.

I do, however, have some issues. Just the name Karl Rove turns me off. Tactically, his winning in Maryland would decrease the chances for Democrats to capture the Senate. TomDeLay talked about a “permanent” Republican majority. What an egotistical fool. Nothing is permanent. I would probably not vote for Steele if I lived in Maryland. At this juncture I think it imperative to eradicate what I consider an excess of Republican power. Steel doesn’t fit into that game plan.

If the speech is any indication, Steele's campaign will avoid highlighting his social conservatism and his longtime ties to national Republican politics and politicians -- he is antiabortion, has served on the Republican National Committee's executive committee, and his first fundraiser was headlined by White House adviser Karl Rove.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...5102500543.html

Oh, BTW, I provided my own links.




It is not a matter of political savvy Sleeper.

Sure, I could have found the link, but I didn't look. Why should I search when, in my opinion, it was aevans176's responsibility to corroborate the information he posted? I taught school for more than thirty years and made a practice of encouraging students to do their own work. Aren't Republicans all about personal responsibility? To hear some of them tell it, the answer has to be "yes."

If you want to do his homework, that's your decision, but I refuse.

Of course he/she can... else why would he/she be a Republican. However, I don't think a Black American can be concerned with general African American (and other minorities) welfare and be a Republican. But if their first interest is themselves, then that seems a very good reason to be a Republican, that or they are really scared gays will get married under Democrats.

2. Is it ok to call Black Republicans ephitets such as "uncle Tom" or "oreo"? Are these accurate and deserved remarks?
If the person is Black... I say yes. Especially if it is true...

Look, in general(hate to generalize, but I will)... Republicans don't care about Black people... they don't believe in the "struggle"... to most Republicans the only things stopping Blacks from being successful is Blacks. To many Republicans, there is an assumed, but never said, inferiority inherit in Blacks. They'll throw out some statistic or another.... like say out of marriage childbearing to explain the problems that the Black community is facing... but they'll never explain what it is about Blacks that makes us so unagreeable to marriage.

I'm not saying Republicans ar anti-Black.. they just apathetic to any concerns that Black communities deal with. Which brings us to the issue... why would a Black person become one?? Maybe that person doesn't identify well with his/her ethnicity.

You know the kind that doesn't just say "I'm American, before I'm Black"...lol... but actually believes it!! Well you know what... people like that are "Oreos" trying so hard to assimilate... and if they believe this way just so they can become more successful... that makes them a sell out.

I don't buy this for second. Just because a Republican black guy doesn't agree with YOUR definition [or more specifically, liberals' definition] of "helping" the African-American community doesn't mean he's sold out and is only concerned about himself. In a "tolerant" society, a person of any color should be able to associate with any political party without automatically being labled a sell out, or being told that he doesn't care about his race. I'm sure every [and if not every, most] black conservatives care about their race, they just disagree with black liberals' proposed solutions.

Can a white person have a good reason to be a Democrat?

Insulting someone because you disagree with their political leanings is just stupid. Stupid.

CP

1. Can a black American have good reason to be a Republican?


That is a tough question, because I am white and all LOL- So, we only can really ask this from our own anecdotal experiance, and how the republican party is certainly considered "anti-black" by a very large majority of blacks, vs, from what I can tell "black apathetic" of the democratic party.

But boy, how do you back this up? I guess by recent campaigns that are EXTREMELY racist by thier very nature, and very, very anti-black in nature- Jesse Helms's campaign commercials aren't that far out of the average black voters mind, nor is the "push poll" about John McCain's having a "brown baby" campaign, or the "Willie Horton" of GH Bush. I am not sure if the voting record of republicans is all that much worse than Dems- in all honesty, I am not sure any political party has done all that much by issues that are truly helpful or really a good faith effort to take a real assesment and problem solving of issues that are unique to the black community. So, I would think that recent totally racist republican themes by recent campaigns would be the real turn off to many blacks- heck, it turns me off too LOL-

So I will follow up with the next question


2. Is it ok to call Black Republicans ephitets such as "uncle Tom" or "oreo"? Are these accurate and deserved remarks?


Another tough question. Everyone should be given some respect for thier choices in politics, no matter how wing-nutty they are (remember, as a libertarian, I am a real tilter-at-windmills ) - however- I think a black republican is really seen as a sell out in most circles I hang out in, and thier character really called into question, and other blacks really shun them when they are activists in that direction. Maybe your life experiances are different- but, you know, when there are no written records or recording devices on, and friends are free to speak as friends do, not much nice is said about black republicans by blacks in social circles. Of course- rich black poeple may very well run in different circles than myself.

So, all that I can speak from is personal experiance- and in my experiance, blacks regularly refer to black republicans (those that are pretty outspoken about being members) as "uncle tom" - as the nicest term actually. I have had this conversation, or near to it- describing "conservative blacks"- and they make some clear distinctions between thier versions of conservatives and the "white mainstream" conservatives.

Is it okay though? Probably not my place to say- won't do it myself, with a couple exceptions (Clarence Thomas comes to mind - in humor, he is definately considered the archetype of the self hating black that plays the "uncle tom"- I mean, the lexicon of the word "uncle tom" is often changed in slang to describe that now as "uncle clarence" or a "condi" as well) Colin Powell doesn't seem to get any of this criticism, and Bill Cosby's recent speech doesn't seem to bother the folks I hang out with-

I don't know- this is a slippery and awful label- but, I don't think it does much good to call poeple that publically, as far as issues that are important to the majority of blacks- but, in normal conversation, I guess it happens to be a label that is easily thrown to the black republican.

There was an SNL script clear back in 1980, after the election of Reagan, with the mutual of Omaha's "wild kingdom" searching for the rare "black republican" and darting and tagging him- but, regardless if we think this is a good or bad thing, it is pretty common in speech among most blacks I hang out with.

Edited to add- CP beat me to it- but his comment on the second question is relevant- and in real debate- name calling doesn't make your point too well for you- but the reality is that a great deal many blacks feel just this way.

Fair enough... how do Republicans want to help out the Black community. What programs do republicans support that address problems faced by African American community??

Exactly- ask most republicans this question, and they put it back on blacks as though the ENTIRE problem is for the blacks to solve, and that it is thier own fault as a community at large, and that racism, for the most part, in day to day life, just doesn't exist. I ran into this when reporting RECENT articles of very valid and recent studies and sting operations confronting racism against blacks- posters simply did not want to believe it exists.

Republicans have 0 plans, and claim it is the blacks fault, for the most part. Democrats have some ideas, but don't follow through, but at least they recognize it is a societal problem for all Americans, not just blacks.

Droop, this is exactly what I mean. You see "helping" the African American community as providing them with programs, conservatives [real conservatives] don't believe that government programs "helps" anyone, white people included. In a conservative world [okay, conservative libertarian, ConservPatocracy] the government wouldn't support anyone, white or black. That doesn't mean that conservatives like me [I'm a quarter black if that counts, and my Dad is half, and certainly not an "oreo"...and try calling him an Uncle Tom] don't care about black people, we just don't see attaching them to the teat of the government as helping them. It's a difference in ideology, not in caring vs. not caring. How weird is this, me the conservatives dealing in shades of grey, and you the liberal making it a black and white, caring vs. not caring issue.

This is an unsupported blanket statement CR.

CP

Amazing!!!! You just couldn't be more wrong about everything you just said. You can give that thumbs up all you want but you couldn't be more clueless about Republicans and Conservatism. I'll assume you are black based on the "makes us so unagreeable" phrase. White men run both parties yet you believe that somehow the white Democrats are genetically different than the white Republicans in such as way that the Republicans can't believe what they see with their own eyes? The reason you're still "struggling" is because you keep buying the liberal Democrat bullshot just like you have for the last 60 years. If $7,000,000,000,000,000 in Great Society spending didn't fix your struggle, do you think any other liberal hair-brained ideas will? Generally speaking (hate to generalize) you and/or your people have not tried conservative principles yet. You vote Democrat in droves railing against the Conservatives year after year like Lemmings, and haven't even tried living by our ideology. I'll tell you something, Dr King had more in common with Conservatives in the areas important to your people than any lib of today. He didn't advocate welfare, free handouts and a free ride that would go on indefinitely. You know why he didn't, because it doesn't work if you don't eventually get off your posterior and act like a man. Hey, and if your African before your American , then go back to Africa...you underdig? Maybe that's the whole problem. People who don't want to become Americans will always have problems. No where in the Constitution does it say Americans have to treat you special because you are African. Nobody else that came here ever got treated special. I know this personally. The only man who talks like Dr King these days is Bill Cosby. Your blackness doesn't impress anyone, it's your character that matters. You can't wish your way to liberty, nor can you expect the white man to hold you up in the palm of his hand and set you free. If you're not man enough to act free, then you are lost. No doo, baggy clothes, crooked hat, hand gesture, cool stut, or jive talk will make you free. You have to believe in the basic principle of liberty spelled in the Dec of Ind and the US Constitution. Just because you didn't get your share when they were written, doesn't mean their founding statements aren't true. The actions of men cannot turn real truth into lies.

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. "

"I want to be the white man's brother, not his brother-in-law."

"Love is the only force capable of transforming an enemy into friend."

"Nonviolence means avoiding not only external physical violence but also internal violence of spirit. You not only refuse to shoot a man, but you refuse to hate him."

"The limitation of riots, moral questions aside, is that they cannot win and their participants know it. Hence, rioting is not revolutionary but reactionary because it invites defeat. It involves an emotional catharsis, but it must be followed by a sense of futility." Rev Jackson condoned the LA Riots.

"Whatever your life's work is, do it well. A man should do his job so well that the living, the dead, and the unborn could do it no better."

My family had nothing to do with slavery in this country. My parents immigrated here in 1955 and knew no English, got no Govt handouts, no bilingual assistance, no welfare, no free jobs, no affirmative action, no nothing. They had to make it by going out and getting a job and working hard. Both of them are almost 80 years old now and comfortably retired. Neither had a college education. So aside from my sympathy for blacks over slavery, that's where is begins to end. All the actions on the part of other people are not going to make you a person of character, if you won't admit the truth. Bill Cosby has been talking to you, how about listening?

[font="Verdana"][/font]

Yes CP - it is a difficult question for a libertarian- and when put in libertarian definitions- you are absolutely correct- but when talking about republicans, there is a definate difference- conservative republicans today have no problem giving out HUGE goverment programs to rich constituents, spending large amounts of money on poeple not even in America ( for instance, spending billions and billions building schools in Iraq, and hospitals, but acting like providing the same service for a black community is socialism) -

You see, in libertarian thought- EVERY man for himself, and you are free to starve etc- some of those very ideals is why libertarians can't get elected, we are, at least, crazy to a fault, and apply, usually, or ideals equally to every race- when that is clearly not the case in the republican circles- you feelin' me here bro?

Remember the Schiavo scandal? That is one issue that will come up when this discussion comes up- the phrase is "you know (expletive) well that the only reason they are trying to save her is because she is a pretty white girl"- republicans refuse to even visit the issue of being "stopped for driving while black"- a very, very valid comment, as I was in the car once when it happened. These are valid issues, and in a libertarian ideology, I believe these kind of anti-liberty issues would ALWAYS be in the forefront- because the libertarian party is all about limiting goverment- and it offends libertarian's to think that the police are overstepping thier mission because of this behavior- do you understand where I am coming from?

I do understand where you're coming from, however, I believe that in theory a Republican PERSON not necessarily a politician is a conservative. They're representatives are another story. But if we're talking about John Q. Black-Republican, then I really believe that he cares about his race, but as I said, doesn't see the government as the vehicle to fix the African American communities problems. As for Republican politicians, I agree that they are certainly not conservatives, but if we're talking about citizens, I don't believe characterizing a black Republican as an Uncle Tom is appropriate at all.

CP

First... this isn't about liberal vs conservative... more about being a Black Republican.

My father is highly religious.. He's very conservative in his values... but he's no republican...

He'll vote republican, but he's no republican... why?? Because while he may see the extreme problems with Democrats... he know there is NO platform for Blacks, as a people, withthe Republican party.

It's simple as that...



Well, not to get personal.. but how well do you identify with Blacks... Do you feel that unity with other Blacks... the brotherhood?? That common sense of struggle??

And allow me to ask... what do you see will help Blacks?? And if it is self-help... why aren't we doing it?? Are we inferior??



Maybe you just aren't getting what I am saying.... I'm asking you... how does the Republican party connect to you or your Father as Black men?? Does it at all?? TEll me how Republicans care about minorities, through policy??

And what I'm saying is that you're typical conservative Black man is a Republican. You're father, I would be willing to bet, is an outlier.


Identify? I don't see race. I have black friends, I have white friends, I'm comfortable around both races...That should be enough.

I believe that there are number of things that can be done to help black people. You won't agree with one of them [school vouchers and partial if not complete privatization of education for one],...Again, it's a difference in ideology, not the lack of care.

Well, it doesn't connect to me, I'm a registered Libertarian. My father is a Republican because he agrees with their stance on economic issues and some social issues, including their stance on Affirmative Action [which he, as a black man, sees as an insult] among other things. But most importantly, my Dad doesn't think "how do the Republicans appeal to me as a black man", he thinks, "how do the Republicans appeal to me as a HUMAN BEING". That doesn't mean he rejects his race [he doesn't, believe me], he just disagrees with you're philosophy about it.

CP

Whoa- a lot to say and rebut in just one post- you do know that Martin Luthor King Junior was a big supporter of Affirmative Action? And equallizing the economic power for blacks? You entire post is pretty much why blacks distrust the republican party so thoroughly - just your post alone, if shown to your average middle class black- would make my point better than any other thing I could say.

In fact, your quote about all the money spent on programs and such- has been debated and debunked quite nicely in other threads- as is much of your post.

I look at it this way when it comes to goverment intervention in racial issues- the blacks in our country have a pretty unique to the world relationship with the country of thier birth. I am 42 years old. When I was five, there is no way I could have lived next door to the nieghbor I do now, and, in fact, my nieghborhood today, here in lilly white Anchorage Alaska- is predominantly races other than whites, because "steerage" was not made illegal here until, I believe, the late 70s or early 80s- bro- I am here to tell you, the return social exclusion of blacks is quite recent in my memory- it is not just slavery, it is since YOUR parents immigrated in 1955- one could say some of the most egregious crimes against black citizens happened during that very time your parents immigrated- so we are not talking just about the effect of slavery upon modern black citizens, we are talking about a cultural awareness that blacks are lessor citizens, and less worthy of justice, than whites, in very, very recent history. I started dating about the early 80s as a full grown man, and since Alaska is pretty loose when it comes to racial tension, darn near non-existant, I thought nothing of dating a black girl, because, you know, I was 18, and she was pretty, and I was a niave hick from Alaska- she was nice, no big deal to me- but, even in the early 80s, it WAS a big deal to a great deal many southerners, and elements of my own family- today, it doesn't seem to be much of a big deal anymore to anyone- but even 20 years ago- it was.

So, many of the problems that blacks in America face, are still the outgrowth of policies and cultural norms that I have seen even in my own lifetime.

Also- think of things in these terms as well- who votes when it comes to voting trends among blacks, and who do they vote for? Of course, poeple that vote tend to be: Homeowners, middle class, tax payers etc. So- I am going out on a limb here without a link to back it up- perhaps someone will prove this thought wrong, if so, be my guest- but I am betting that the largest block of voters that identify themselves as black are pretty much the same eco-social status as white voters- home owners, job holders, tax payers, middle class. So why are thier voting habits so much different than white voters? If you belong to a party that says "because they just don't get it, those black voters"- well, can you see how they would be a bit turned off by your party?




I think this MSNBC article explains it better than I"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6065770/

Take the Republican convention in August, for example. Conservatives have pointed to the number of black delegates who attended as a sign of progress, but the total was only 6.7 percent of all delegates. The previous record, 6 percent, was set at the GOP convention in 1912.

By comparison, black delegates comprised more than 20 percent of all delegates at the Democratic convention, according to the Joint Center

"For black Democrats and white Democrats, their calculus is pretty much the same: They want to get rid of George W. Bush," said David A. Bositis, senior political analyst at the Joint Center. "George W. Bush represents everything -- war, violation of civil rights, tax cuts for the rich and program cuts for everybody else. There's not one issue that really much matters; it's the whole package."

You father would be a minority within a minority- a very , very , very tiny minority actually.

Even the issues themselves are not neccesarily "civil rights" stuff- but the appearance that Republicans are anti-poor, and anti-black- jobs, healthcare etc.

I do not recall the exact ratio of blacks that vote dem vs blacks that vote repub- but it is so one sided, it is as if the black repub vote is insignificant in contrast.

A what?!?!?!? That's my father you're talking about. Seriously, I have no idea what a outlier is... but he's a democrat... and a bigot. He doesn't want Gays to get married... so he voted for Bush... the second time around... lol



You don't see race?? Welll it's enough for me... Enough said, case closed. I too have good freinds of many different races... but I still see race. Maybe you have another pair of those rose tinted shades and I can see everithing in shades of pink too.



I agree school vouchers can help individual Black Kids... but not Blacks , in general... the program isn't set up to do that. I'd love to hear your views on how vouchers help Blacks or any other minority group, in general.



Well, then ask your dad, when you get the chance which "economic" or "social" issues connect with him as a Black man in America that Republicans support, since he feels so offended by Affirmative Action

I'm one of the most cynical people of my age on the planet, this is the first time I've ever been accused of wearing rose tinted glasses. What exactly do you mean by this? Half of my family is black, do you really think race is an issue with me?

We're getting into policy debate now, which is off topic. But that's kind of my point, you may [and you probably do] disagree with my ideology when it comes to philosophy, but that does not mean I don't care about black people, can we agree on that?

I'll say it again, he doesn't look at things like that. He doesn't say "how do Republicans appeal to me as a black man" he says "how do Republicans appeal to me as a human", you can dismiss that by saying that that is naive, but I'm telling you that that is how my dad views the world, and there's nothing anyone can say to convince me that MY dad views the world differently.

CP

Man i totally missed this post... so I don't want to repeat cruisingram so I will say this....

Founders Intent... TFI you get a round of applause from me, please show Conservpat why Blacks don't belong with Republicans.... Hey TFI what were the founders intent for Blacks in America.

Case and point...

I make a comment about people thinking they are American before they are Black and TFI says

Hey, and if your African before your American , then go back to Africa...you underdig?


He couldn't wait to tell my Black , you know what, to go back to Africa... No one even brought up Africa... This is how the general republican party sees Blacks...

If you saw a neo-nazi go into the election booth to vote... honestly, which party do you think he'd vote for.... seriously??

ConservPat


We can agree you care about the Black people you know.



Great... cool... but what I am asking is there any way you can think of that Republican connect with your father as a Black man??

If I were to ask him he would say that that's not the way he thinks...The more times you ask me this the more times you'll hear this. If I asked my Dad that question he'd say that they don't connect to him as a black man and neither does any political party because he doesn't look for them to appeal to him as a black man. I know what you're trying to get me to say, but believe me when I tell you that that would be the answer to you're question. My dad's black [half], he cares about people in general, he doesn't really distinguish between the races [and that makes a lot of sense, he's biracial, he sees people, not black or white] so he doesn't see the need to evaluate what the Republicans do to appeal to him as a black man. Bottom line, he's a Republican and a black guy who cares about his race, because he cares about people, black, white, whatever. That may sound corny but I don't care, that's just the way it is.

CP

This has to be one of the most insensitive and inflammatory things I have read on this board. What in hell does “underdig” mean?

African American puts African first because of English language constructs. In English, the modifier (adjective) “African” comes before the (noun) “American” that it modifies.

Although I have lived in the Southwest most of my life, I don’t know much Spanish. I do know, however, that the noun comes first followed by the adjective in Spanish. In Spanish it would be Americano Africano.

I don’t, however, see your ignorance as steming from language constructs. I think they still taught parts of speech when you went to school. It’s rather the old mean spirited dig with eagles claws to blacks about going back to Africa. This is really funny. I have personally known a few Nigerians in my lifetime. They came here to study at universities, seminaries and military bases and, upon completion, did, in fact, go back. Otherwise, most blacks come from the U. S. (as today’s 80th birthday child, Chuck Berry, himself an astute black observer of everything Americana, put it in 1958) – “They’ll be rocking in Boston, Pittsburgh Pa., deep in the heat of Texas and around the Frisco Bay, all over St. Louie and down in New Orleans…” He could have mentioned Richmond or Norfolk, (which he did in another song) but he didn’t. Blacks come from everywhere that’s here. How does one go back to someplace they’ve never been?

To lighten this up a bit, I’ll tell a little story. I was once eating on a restaurant where a hispanic (edited to conform to current preferred usage) man was cleaning the windows. Somebody had told him that if the didn’t like Ronald Reagan he could go back where he came from. He replied, "but I don’t want to go back to Waxahachie."

BTW: If my Spanish is off, carlitoswhey or Lesly may correct it.

Questions for Debate:

1. Can a black American have good reason to be a Republican?

2. Is it ok to call Black Republicans ephitets such as "uncle Tom" or "oreo"? Are these accurate and deserved remarks?



As someone who lives in Maryland I think I should point out that the Democrats in MD have before experienced the same sort of "insensitivity" as Mr Ben Cardin is being quoted for here. This is the state that keeps people like William Donald Schaefer in office proving that democrat often has nothing to do with liberal and progressive ideals.


I frequently listen to this radio show called News and Notes on NPR it focuses on issues and discussions from an African American perspective. They usually have a roundtable discussion on the day's topic and Glenn Loury is often a guest, he is a conservative black American and even though the host and other regular guests give him a hard time as he is often the one dissenting voice or conservative view at the table I have never heard them disown him as a black man and in fact I think his contribution is obviously desired, as he is an invited guest, but that it is also needed. The discussions or debates just would not be whole without him and I would imagine many black Americans know this.

These are pretty strong statements. Inhereit inferiority? I don't know about that. I think that most republicans believe that blacks AREN'T inferior, which is why we believe that all Americans (within reason) at least have a similar ability (genetically at least) to succeed in America. It's not about distaste, not caring, or any other moniker, but moreover that most republicans really would like to stop talking about it... we often times feel as if it's a perpetuated issue that's self-fulfilling.

When it comes to politics, I believe that the "Republicans don't care about black people" myth is a perpetuated by people who have an interest in doing so. Truth be told, Republicans and the black community have both similarities and ideals that are at times contrary, but it's never cut and dry (*as some would like to think). Republicans are more likely to be religious, less likely to vote for gay marriage, less interested in open-immigration, etc. Of course on issues such as affirmative action and/or welfare reform, we might have differing opinions.

The issue comes for me in that if a man decides that his values are more aligned with a conservative platform (and truth be told, many Black Americans are moderates), he's labeled as a "lap dog" so to speak.

I find it funny that you say "[i]maybe that person doesn't identify well with his/her ethnicity[i]". You act as if black people in Shreveport Louisiana are culturally the same as those in NYC, or that those in Pheonix are the same as those in Washington DC. It's ridiculous. You infer that this is true across races, as if white people are the same or hispanics, asians, etc.

I think people find more reason to increase division than to find similarity. This is where the "oreo" comments come in. I find it abhorrid that a public servant with a spotless record takes this kind of abuse. Just like many life choices, I'd be fine with other black people saying "well, I don't agree...but he's done well for himself, etc". Guess that's out of the question, because he (and other black republicans) are sleeping with the "enemy"...



I agree with what you're saying, but most Mexican-Americans who aren't really from Mexico, don't want to be called "Mexican Americans", and you know it sir.
The truth be told, the only group that wants to be identified with a continent that they've never lived on or been to are "African Americans", who's African roots are neither apparent nor warranted.

I DO speak Spanish, nearly fluently. Mexicans from Mexico are VERY proud of their heritage, and often very reticent to relinquish citizenship, even in the face of dual citizenship now being available. However- American born Hispanics, as a group, don't want to be called anything other than American (if not hispanic or latino at times). More ironically, Puerto Ricans and Cubans don't want to be associated with each other, particularly Mexicans.

To tie this to the thread... it begs me to question, who in America (other than immigrants or recent children of immigrants) isn't some how a "mixed bag"? Most families, mine included, aren't from one heritage. So, in essence, most black people are "Oreo's" (or whatever..). Mr. Steele, or any other black American, might just have a few bits/pieces of other heritages... and so most of us I'm sure...

This is the exact reasoning that leads to situations like the one in the gaza strip. It's the same story different scenerio.

Let me ask you, what programs do Republicans support that address problems faced by the white "community"?

1. Yes. Why not? Many African-Americans feel great admiration and support for the economical and social agenda of the GOP. The Republican Party was the primary political party most African-Americans were loyal to before Franklin Rooselvelt wooed them away. This courtship continued through the presidency of Lyndon B. Johnson, despite most of the opposition to civil rights coming from Democrats such as John Stennis, James O. Eastland, Strom Thurmond, Robert Byrd, George Wallace, and Lester Maddox.

Following the presidencies of Nixon, Ford, Reagan and Bush41, the Republican Party began to be seen as either indifferent or openly hostile to rights of Black Americans. This only served to drive them deeper into the arms of the Democrats. The near-exclusive relationship between Blacks and Democrats has remained strong, if not occasionally shaky.

Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice rank high in the "Most Admired" status and many Black parents hold them up as role models as two prominent non-entertainment African Americans. They are frequently mentioned as having the qualities many citizens would want to see in a future president. They are both proud Black Republicans and just as Tiger Woods aroused interest in golf, so has the presence of Powell and Rice in the GOP made the party more attractive to Blacks.

I interviewed some senior staffers in the Ken Blackwell gubernatorical campaign and one young brother arrived at our meeting with shoulder length dreadlocks, a nice business suit and shoes and a lot of passion for making Blackwell Ohio's first Black governor.

There are many White Republicans who are committed to protecting civil rights such as former Missouri Senator John Danfourth and former Congressman Jack Kemp. Kemp earlier this year wrote a passionate defense of extending the Voting Rights Act, criticizing members of his own party for their opposition:

Far from dividing America, the Voting Rights Act assures that racial and ethnic minorities have an equal opportunity to elect candidates who reflect their views and values, ensuring the nation's continued progress toward a society where race ultimately will no longer matter.

Our nation is a far different place today from what it was in 1965. Discriminatory practices such as poll taxes, literacy tests, violence and intimidation to keep minorities from voting no longer pervade communities as they once did. But the continuing well-documented efforts of elected officials to dilute minority voting strength and deter minority political participation strongly supports renewal of the Voting Rights Act.

The Party of Lincoln should not allow itself to be captured by regressive forces. Nor should it bog itself down in a debate about which political party is advantaged by ending voter discrimination. Rather, we should all join to ensure that every American citizen have an equal opportunity to vote and that every vote be counted.
Kemp's column

Recognizing that many African Americans oppose same-sex marriage, abortion on demand and support faith-based initiatives, the Republicans have found some surprising allies and receptive audiences within the Black church. The difficulty for the GOP in these newly found "values voters" is many in the Black church still believe the Democrats have a greater commitment to social justice programs.

The emergence of formidable Black candidates such as Blackwell in Ohio, Steele in Maryland and Lynn Swann in Pennsylvania may not translate into victories for all three in November, but their presence indicates the GOP is grooming a new stock of Black candiates.

2. No. The only time it is acceptable to call any Black person a "Uncle Tom" is when they are purposedly engaged in behaviors that embarass, harm or hold Blacks up to ridicule. To that aspect, 50 Cent does more damage to the image of Black people than Michael Steele.

There are a lot of clowns shuffling and eye-rolling who are "cooning it up" far worse than a Steele, Swann or Blackwell, but that's a different discussion. There are very thoughtful (and proudly Black) conservatives such as the aforementioned Glenn Loury, Joseph C. Phillips and John McWhorter.

That doesn't mean there aren't Black Republicans whom don't deserve the term, "Uncle Tom." Ward Connerly is among the worst of the worst offenders. I have no problem calling him a punk, sell-out, wanna be White, shufflin', eye-rollin', handkerchief head, skinnin' and grinnin', watermelon chomping, chicken and biscuit eatin' house Negro Uncle Tom because that is exactly what he is.

But simply because a Black woman or man finds their political interests more at home in the Republican Party than the Democrats in no way makes them an automatic "Uncle Tom."

While I agree with the majority of your post, I find this description of Ward Connerly as disturbing.

You don't agree with his stand (as some black Americans don't) on Affirmative action, but he's a very successful businessman, and believes in this intiative passionately. From what I can gather from reading statements, he believes that your children and any others of color should be judged based upon their ambition, intelligence, and hard work. They have the mental capacity and ability, that shouldn't be tarnished by policy that causes peers to infer that their accomplishments were due to policy as opposed to capability. I actually have heard similar arguments from people in my career and/or during my education.

Uncle Tom? I'd be interested in hearing why you believe this is an acceptable moniker...

School Choice and / or vouchers come to mind immediately. Welfare reform. Values issues in general, like faith and family. Much as you don't want to hear it, opposing the minimum wage is probably the best thing for the black community, if you want kids to actually get jobs and learn how to work.

I've never understood why black social conservatives don't accept the social conservatism of the Republican party. I was discussing this with a black woman in my church and she said "it's like Republicans want a monopoly on God." I asked who else was fighting to keep godly values in schools or government and she just went blank. I don't get it. Drugs, crime and promiscuity are killing the black community, so let's hate the one political party brave enough to talk about values. Seems self-destructive to me.

Being from Louisiana, I think I've lived in some very high minority concentration areas where this issue has been discussed to no end. From a personal anecdotal perspective, my feeling is that Black Americans often times vote Republican as the media and pop culture portrays the Republican party in a negative light (i.e. "George Bush don't like Black people", etc). It's somewhat of a popular feeling, based not in truth but moreover seemingly misunderstanding. I've heard time and time again "Republicans are rich white people", ironically even from people that worked on my team as I worked my way through college! (Sure... I was rich workin' that $8-9/hr job to pay for tuition and somethin' in my belly...! )

To me it's that most American's don't really know what they're voting for (of course excluding most of us), but moreover fall to media or social pressure in one direction or the other. This transcends all demographics as far as I'm concerned. Many (or at least some)black people in America have somehow got it in their heads that there's something inappropriate with being black and republican (i.e. Droop's post).

Wrong question. Are black Americans not Americans? So the question becomes how Republican policies work better for Americans. That of course depends on what your ideology is, but if your ideology happens to be, by and large, the Republican ideology, and if you happen to be black, then there's your answer. If not, then I imagine you'd be voting Democratic whether you're white or black.


I don't know, would Robert Byrd be on the ballot?

Seriously, if this hypothetical person was going into a voting booth, I imagine it would either be to vote for some wacko fringe candidate, or if that option wasn't available, to deface the ballot with swastikas. And it's not like there aren't plenty of socialist racists out there either. Nazism was itself a socialist movement.

But if you still want to play this game, if you saw a black racist going into a voting booth, which party do you think he'd vote for?

Black community values do line up with the GOP’s values more often than the Democratic Party’s values, but it’s a non sequitur. When black families started climbing the economic ladder 50 – 70 years ago white neighborhoods signed restrictive covenants to keep black families out. When restrictive covenants started falling apart white families moved out of their previously all-white neighborhoods, taking white capital and jobs with them. The process leading to economic disenfranchisement of black families began long before Tupac Shakur hit the crime scene.

The coup de grâce was delivered after the 1967 Civil Rights Act—this one with teeth. After putting off voter disenfranchisement and private discrimination to pursue Reconstruction and Industrialization, Congress finally got serious about equality for minorities and blacks in particular. In the process liberal justices were appointed to the Supreme Court who shared Congress’ policy preferences and were willing to overlook expanding federal powers for the common good that was long overdue. Maybe I presume too much, I certainly don’t speak for a black person when I suggest this, let alone black communities, but perhaps they feel there is something to be said for a political party willing to put itself in a position that alienates white and federalist voters and the other party exploit opportunities that opened up after a complete shift in the Democratic platform?

I won’t delve into what the GOP can offer blacks economically since their economic and social policy initiatives are neither intuitive nor cogent to me and therefore don't help Americans, or not many Americans. I don’t have anything to add to Nighttimer’s post. I know what it’s like to be on the wrong side of the tracks according to your race/culture. Ironically three weeks ago I started (gently) needling Babalú Blog on and off.

Oh, and BoF, you're fine.

Preferred usage has changed wildly over the apst 50 years. 'Mexican American" or Chicano were used when that story happened back in the 80s - the Reagan era. You mentioned "latino." In the 50s the phrase "Latin American" was used. That was later considered offensive. Just to make you happy, sir I edited the term to "hispanic."

Y'know, somehow I knew that you'd zero on the 60 words about Ward Connerly that you disagree with instead of the rest of my post that you actually did agree with.

That says something about how you focus on the points of contention over the points of agreement, but I'll explain it like this. If this is served up a bit raw that's because I'm going to keep it real.

Hate is a wasteful emotion and it harms the person who hates more than it does the object of that hatred. So I don't hate Ward Connerly. I just wouldn't spit on him if he were on fire. If he dropped dead tomorrow I wouldn't squirt a tear. I'd just turn the page to the comics and keep eating my Cheerios.

Connerly is a Uncle Tom because he loves White people to such a insane extent that he deliberately goes out on his way to harm Black people. Case in point was how he successfully fought in California to restrict affirmative action with the passage of Proposition 209.

The result? (CBS) SANTA ANA, Calif. U.C. Irvine's freshman class is about 2.3 percent black, reflecting a trend in which the number of African Americans at public universities in Southern California is dropping, according to media reports.

Out of nearly 5,000 freshmen at UCLA this fall, only about 95 are black, the lowest number reported in decades. U.C. San Diego is projected to enroll only 52 black freshmen, or 1.1 percent of the class; UCI, only 122, or 2.3 percent of its freshman class.

The numbers reflect a widening margin between the percentages of Latino and black students graduating from high schools and the percentage of those who ultimately enroll and are admitted to a U.C. school.

The student body is becoming more white and Asian-American despite the state's continuing trend for diversity. http://cbs2.com/local/local_story_281105724.html

Ward Connerly is a Uncle Tom because while he tap dances around the nation trying to spread his Prop 209 crap to other states (Michigan is next) he calls his organization the American Civil Rights Coalition and protests he's carrying on the legacy of Dr. Martin Luther King

After affirmative action foe Ward Connerly repeatedly asserted that he was acting in the spirit of Dr. King, the King family publicly disputed that notion and demanded that Connerly stop misrepresenting Dr.King's views. http://www.louisianaweekly.com/weekly/news...te.pl?20061009p

Ward Connerly is a Uncle Tom because he said in a CNN interview in 2002, "Supporting segregation need not be racist. One can believe in segregation and believe in equality of the races."

Ward Connerly is a Uncle Tom because of his house slave mentality. So he's a successful businessman. SO WHAT? I have nothing but contempt for successful businessmen who instead of making it to the top and throw a rope back so others can climb up to, self-hating house Negroes like Connerly cut the rope because they jealously guard their prominence as the pets protecting the interest of their White patrons.

I am hopeful that the good people of Michigan will see through this farce he is perpetuating and reject his anti-affirmative action initiative.



Seems like good common sense to me if the percepetion is Republicans don't care about those things.

As I said before the economic and social conservatism of the Republican Party does attract Black conservatives. But it's the lack of interest in programs of social justice, economic equity and a progressive attitude toward crime, rehabilition and drug policy among the issues that keep even some Black conservatives at arm's length from the GOP.

Talking about values is easy. Talk is cheap.

Drugs are killing the Black community? Yep, they sure are. And who's bringing all those drugs into the country and laundering the money and buying off the cops and judges? Not the homey on the corner slingin' rock.

Crime is killing the Black community? Sho' nuff. And locking up Black first-time offenders due to mandatory drug laws is filling up the prisons and clogging the courts with a punitive approach to a social and addiction problem. Build all the prisons you like, but the majority of Black men and women whom are being locked down by the State will eventually get back out on the street. The problem is are they coming out as rehabilitated citizens or predators whom have learned from experts how to become super-predators.

Promiscuity is killing the Black community? Dang straight. And the music industry and television networks and movie companies contaminate impressionable youths with images of casual, responsibility-free sex, misogyony and distortions of beauty.

Oh, and drugs, crime and promiscuity harm White communities too. Blacks don't hold a monopoly on self-destructive behavior. Whites though are better able to conceal their pathological and dysfunctional behavior by controlling the images the world sees through the ownership and control of the mass media.

None of which seems to be a pressing interest to the current leadership of the Republican Party.