According to this article:

CS Gazette

the practicing membership base of evangelical Christian churches is shrinking significantly, some claim down to 4% of the population in question, as the children of the practicing membership base leaves home and the church.

It's no secret that the right wing of politics claims the evangelicals as a significant part of its base.

There's also a movement within traditional Christian religions, meaning Catholics and Protestants, to move toward the left, especially on issues dealing with the environment.

Questions for debate:

Why might the erosion of the evangelical movement's base practicing membership be a sign that the United States is moving politically leftward?

What evidence is there that this erosion might be exaggerated?

On the human needs level, what did the evangelical movement provide to fuel its rapid growth? What might it not be providing on this downward growth path?

Why might the erosion of the evangelical movement's base practicing membership be a sign that the United States is moving politically leftward?

Hey- you talkin' about my peeps again? LOL - yes this is preached about alot in the church these days, from the little I still go, basically, on my mom's B-day, my dad's b-day, easter, christmas, and sometimes when my mom has some special piano recital - I guess, in my mind, this is one area that it is good we have such a huge mindless media thang going on- TV, computers and I-pods and misogynist rap music have had the beneficial result of making the fundamentalist christian movement I was raised in very unappealing indeed, I am sure! Folks that did not come from it, hate it when I compare my sect to muslims, but it is a very, very similar society. Very oppressive, and not much fun at all, with lot's of threats of fire and brimstone and hell, with no nice thing like lots of virgins meeting you when you die, just lots of chaste and pure angels and singing hymms, no good ol' soul filled gospel, but very nice and dry and classical white poeple from the north hymms. If the evangelical movement that I came from went away forever the world would be a much better place. - you know, now that I think about it, I guess fitty cent did do some good after all!

But anyway- that is what they preach about in the churchs that are rabidly right wing social conservatives, and your main pray for GW every day can do no wrong types- the fact that they are losing the children, and it seems true from my perpective- only kids in my generation still going are forced in like me most of the time.


What evidence is there that this erosion might be exaggerated?

http://www.ancbt.org/ is our cities' Jerry Falwell clone, and is still the largest church in town, and largest christian school, and he is also the lead delegate for the Republican convention- and rabidly right wing religious whacko and chief hypocrite and slimeball in charge- and he ain't losing membership yet! So, on the other hand, maybe it is exagerted, and I am sure Jerry Falwell doesn't seem to be running out of the gullible these days, and Bob Jones University has managed to get the president to do a speech or two at that fine institution of racist and right wing education- so, it might be a tad exagerated still.

Here is Prevo's and Falwell's and thier ilk's "Cherished beliefs"

http://www.ancbt.org/Beliefs/Beliefs_Cherished.php

We believe in the literal, imminent return of Jesus Christ to earth;


We believe that the Bible is the Word of God without any error, the sole authority for life;

http://www.ancbt.org/Ministry/Soul_Winning.php

However- they do offer a class on how to do it!



“Outreach thru Evangelism”

Dear ABT Outreach Team:

If you want to learn more about sharing your faith in Christ, then you are invited to attend our six-week personal evangelism class called, “The Fundamentals of Soul Winning.”

Here’s some information about our next training sessions:

Beginning Wednesday, October 25, a six-week class called the
“Fundamentals of Soul Winning” will be available for everyone (including our newest church members) in the VIP Room from 7:00-7:30 p.m. – right before the Wednesday evening service. This class will help you share your faith more effectively! If you are interested in attending, please let Pastor Wood know at 333-6535 or dwood@ancbt.org. This class begins Wednesday evening, October 25.
Also, one of our Ladies’ Bible Studies is offering this six-week soul-winning class beginning Tuesday morning, October 24 from 10:00 a.m.-Noon in Room 110. (You can arrive a few minutes early for a light snack and some fellowship in the VIP room, if desired.) Speak with Pastor Wood or Debbie Clary at 333-6535 – or call Loretta Railing at 338-6352 for more information. This class session begins Tuesday morning, October 24.
These classes cost just $29 for all of your training materials, including four audio CD’s.
(Scholarships are available, as needed.)

May God bless you as you continue to serve Him!


Until Jesus Returns,
David Wood, Jr.
Acts 1:8



On the human needs level, what did the evangelical movement provide to fuel its rapid growth? What might it not be providing on this downward growth path?

You know, Karl Marx is not always wrong- he was certainly dead on when he called religion the opiate of the masses, and it still seems to be the atraction. Uncertainty about the future is what fuels most of the adherance to any church IMHO- I mean, just do the history of religion on this planet, and you can see that the entire judeo/christian/islamic mono-theistic religions came out of Alexanders conquests, the older part coming out of the egyption stuff as well- mystery cults and all that. It is not like God really wrote the bible or anything like that either- or that there was a world wide flood or any of that other nonsense- but doesn't stop lots and lots of poeple still believe it. Jerry Prevo from that link I provided above is all about speeding up the procces to the "rapture" and prayed for Tom Delay, while I was in church one day, because he supported Isreal and "then we can tear down that heathen dome of the rock, and rebuild Solomon's temple, and we will have the rapture, and the fulfilling of prophesy"

The same question can be asked on the thread "why the spread of islam"- it is a violent and oppressive religion, yet, poeple flock to it anyway.

I think folks my age and younger are starting to see the hypocrisy, the nastiness the overall oppression of the evangelical right wing church, and they can't be forced into it by the community like you were when I was a kid- now kids are able to leave thier parents religion behind with no real consequences.

That wouldn't really be the signal, they would just be getting more liberal in their doctrine. On environmental issues they probably are starting to realize that global warming isn't just the rethoric of wackos, there are some serious problems here.



I don't think there is a lot of alarm in the ministries reaction to this supposed trend. Not going to church won't make a person more religious anymore then going to church defines their religious persuasion. It's just an interesting statistic that is probably being used to draw some attention.



As a political movement evangelicals rallied behind Pat Robertson when he was trying to get the nomination to be the GOP Presidential canidate. He had delegates in every district in the United States and then the televangilist scandle broke and he turned the delegates over to George Bush senior. One of the main reasons that Dan Quale became Bush's running mate was because of his voting record on abortion, it was their primary issue. Religion is a curious thing, it's so much a part of a persons private world it doesn't really translate well into politics.

What usually ends up happening is a big moral issue like slavery, civil rights or more recently abortion. When that has run it's course the churches go back to what they do best, ministering to people. I was listening to an activist once on CSPAN who asked Jerry Farwell what he thought about political movements involving churches. He said, "What you have to understand about Christians is if they lose they quit and if they win they quit."

I don't think you are going to see any great shrinkage of the number of Christians that are actually converting. You may well see a shift in how they maintain their faith and express it in the general public. As far as what kind of a need they meet, have met or are failing to meet now...it could be that nothing has really changed and the statistics would have been the same 20 years ago

I agree completely, I dont really think there is a 'shift to the left', as the evangelicals remain just as dogmatic on most of their standard issues. I think the evidence of global warming is getting so overwhelming it is simply being accepted as reality, and the scientific consensus is being recognised as true. Truth does not (or at least should not) be a left or right issue.

Put it this way, a significant part of the Republican party is involved in a 'polite revolution' against Bush jr on Iraq, does that mean they are moving to the left? No, it just means they have accepted the reality of the situation in Iraq. I'm sure that does not affect most of their other commonly held right-wing beliefs.

I like to think that when faced with evidence and proof, people on either side of the political spectrum can change their belief system to incorporate this. It often does not turn out that way, in many cases the belief becomes more important than reality. But hope springs eternal...

Why might the erosion of the evangelical movement's base practicing membership be a sign that the United States is moving politically leftward?

Because the notions of God wanting us to do this or that (prayer in school, sex only in marriage and only for procreation, creationism/ID taught alongside evolution) are not important to the emerging next generation. We adults have not yet assigned a demeaning letter to this generation (X, Y, Z, A), and I don't think that's going to happen. The trend is so last century in the publishing world.

Social issues are important to this generation though. Education is very important, and not an education full of wishful thinking. Everything isn't going to turn out all right if we allow group prayer at football games. That is irrelevant. Getting a decent wage to live on down the road, that's important. Having more options than joining the military and getting shipped off to Iraq, that's important. Affordable health care and housing, important. Where the soul goes after death, eh, that issue can wait.

Simply put, evangelical religion isn't providing anything for these young people. They went through the motions because it was just one more thing they had to do, not because they wanted to do it.

Anyway, movement from the right is by necessity movement to the left, even if the goal is the center.

What evidence is there that this erosion might be exaggerated?

The most convincing argument from the article on this situation is that the guy coming out with the shrinking base idea just published a book on the subject. It could be a sales pitch without much supporting research, and that does look like the case. Only one study is cited in the book.

The book might be a call to arms for the evangelicals to get out there and recruit, recruit, recruit. How can the churches continue to exist without cashflow? But then people in general are building resistance to sales pitches, mostly because disposable income has become tighter.

On the human needs level, what did the evangelical movement provide to fuel its rapid growth? What might it not be providing on this downward growth path?

From what I saw, evangelical churches provided central social gathering places for people who became disattached to community in the suburbs. This paradigm (church for socialization) has a long history, but other organizations filled this need too: the grange for farmers, the union hall for workers, the Elk's Club and others for professionals. In the 1960s hippies tried out communes, some of which went for quite a while.

Then the 1980s came along, hippies got good-paying jobs, got married, had kids and the emptiness of being isolated in suburbia came back. There was also a movement away from the drug culture, which left another kind of spiritual emptiness as the fog cleared. People wanted answers and clear directions. Some found this in traditional religions while others looked for alternatives, and they found them in evangelical churches where dogma wasn't quite so unapproachable. Anyone could be a preacher because seminary studies were not required.

So evangelical religions met the need for social interaction and satisfied a hunger for spiritual connections.

Now the kids the hippies had have grown up. Actually, a couple generations have passed into adulthood since then, and the evangelicals enjoyed tremendous growth through this time. It looked like the social and spiritual angles had taken firm root. But this simply wasn't true for one basic reason:

Evangelical religions do not have the political depth of traditional religions. That is, there was no Holy Roman Empire. There was no Martin Luther, no Middle Ages, no migration to a New World in search of religious freedom. There was no king inventing his own religion to get a divorce.

Most importantly, there was no mystery to keep people in line, such as rituals done in an old language that nobody but the special priesthood understood. Somewhat less important is the lack of inquisitions and witch stonings/burnings.

The only things that the evangelicals have are the threats of the devil, hell, humanists and liberals. This simply isn't enough to keep people in line and paying those tithes, not when the targeted people are more concerned about making a living than saving their souls, and besides, if anyone can do it, why does anyone need a church?

Okay, so what happens when the next generation goes to college? Well, maybe the evil liberals control their minds and turn them away from church. Or, and this is more likely, doors open up to realities that are more interesting than what church has to offer. Our world has lots going on in it. It is no longer a drab place of constant toil and mind-numbing labor.

But what about the social advantage of church? I think this is becoming less of a problem for people. I'm not sure how the next generation is going to handle it, and maybe the evangelicals will get more membership once the kids get into the workplace (assuming we aren't all heading toward third-world status), but I have my doubts.

Right now social interactions are easily accessible through the Internet and cell phones. This not only involves cyber relationships and communities (like this one), but physical meet-ups for a variety of reasons. I expect this to evolve into highly effective, global social environments. Whatever it becomes, I bet it's interesting, creative and unlike anything we've seen to date. People are like that, especially young people entering the world we've created so far.

Why might the erosion of the evangelical movement's base practicing membership be a sign that the United States is moving politically leftward?

I'm not at all sure that the erosion is taking place to that degree. I am sure that evangelicals are probably feeling pretty disheartened about a number of things.

Many candidates for whom evangelicals worked very hard have proven that they talk a good game, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty these politicians are not much different than the ones who do not appeal to traditional orthodox and evangelical Christian groups in order to garner votes.

In addition, evangelicals within political movements are not immune to in-fighting, especially when some factions want their politician to take a harder line, say, against abortion, while other factions realize that requiring that candidate to take a hard line stance might ruin his/her chances to be re/elected.

On the other hand, younger people do not seem altogether convinced that believing and abiding by evangelical church doctrines holds the rewards that they desire. Doing something simply because your church teaches that it is the right thing to do, and abstaining from doing something you want to do because it is the wrong thing to do under your current circumstances seems arbitrary to those who have not been raised with church-established dogma from the get-go.

It is difficult to practice such a belief system in an atmosphere where it seems everyone is out for him/herself and doing almost anything to gain pleasure and wealth. But then, that's basic capitalism.

What evidence is there that this erosion might be exaggerated?

I have not seen evidence to support or refute an erosion of membership outside of this thread.

On the human needs level, what did the evangelical movement provide to fuel its rapid growth? What might it not be providing on this downward growth path?

It is exciting to believe in a caring deity whose imminent return to earth is to be prefaced by "wars and rumours of wars" and "earthquakes in divers [sic] places" and of people talking about "peace, peace, where there is no peace". It brings a sense to the believer that all this chaos and violence is building up to some cataclysmic event with the victory of the ultimate divine hero and his adoring followers. When it doesn't happen soon enough to suit some adherents to these beliefs, they become discouraged. It's as if a policeman is waving them by, saying, "Move along folks; there's nothing to see here," and they have to return to their mundane, challenging and sometimes bitter lives.

Some of us (including me) do believe that portion of the commonly-recited creed that states Christ is returning. It's just important to not get too caught up in the hype and just try to live our lives so that if it happens, great; if it doesn't, we won't be ashamed of the way we've been living our lives.

But then, there are churches and other organizations which place less emphasis on following dogma to the letter and focus on helping the poor and working for social justice. We might find that some of the disillusioned evangelicals have migrated to institutions such as these. They can be very rewarding.

Yes, lefties can be and are religious, too (sometimes)! It is also possible to follow the teachings of the gospels while not associating oneself with the "big names" in the conservative Christian movement.

Ummm... well... uhh... I just chose this to debate, as it's not really even true.

The environment, according to most churches, is rarely even an issue. Furthermore, I task you to find a "leftward leaning" Church. The only exception might be black churches and affirmative action. Abortion, Gay Marriage, etc. All conservative. Particularly the Catholics.

Please provide some documentation about this... as I don't see it, and most importantly don't think that those mentioned (Episcopals excluded) fit the bill at all.

That's not entirely true. Membership in Unitarian churches, part of the Unitarian/Universalist Association headquartered in Boston, tends to lean leftward on social, environmental and political issues.

Since the membership is sort of a loose confederation of individualists, there are some conservative, though not evangelical, members.

Umm - the Anglican Church (you call it Episcopalian, I think), at least in Anglo-Saxon countries, is practically socialism at prayer. They are broadly pro-gay (allowing gays in the preisthood, but not yet to be married in church - we Brits headed that one off by legalistion of "civil partnerships" but not marriages, in effect making "marriage" a purely religious ceremony, though not in name); pro-women (same); are certainly not anti- abortion, at least not openly.

There are looming split with more conservative Anglicans, most particularly in Africa, but that doesn't make Anglo-Saxon Anglicans any less left-leaning.

You asked for a link

Maybe it's because one isn't paying attention?

Green Gospel 07/06/06

Religion Wakes Up 04/2000

Back in the 1960s and 70s, the Demos and Repubs worked together to heal the environment. Then there was a movement away from this to exploitation, which I consider a sharp right turn. Religions pretty much stayed out of this thing, but there is a movement toward the environmentalism that has become a leftward issue over the decades.

So, I'll stay the course on this being a leftward movement in today's political climate. The concern seems to be that not taking care of the environment is a sin.

Well, it isn't very smart, that's my take. Keep the nest clean.

Note that some evangelicals have taken up the green mantle too. This could be an attempt to keep the youngsters in the church past high school graduation.

Though this is the common perception, it is in fact not true. In fact according to Gallup polls, those respondants who identify thmselves as Christian were 39% pro-choice, while 20% favoured completely unrestricted access to abortions. That is a minority, but a very strong one. To assert that 'Churches are anti-abortion' is simply not true. In fact, it is obviously not true, when you consider how many Americans consider themselves religious, and yet the country is and has been majority pro-choice for decades.

Gay Marriage is also not so clear. While a majority of self-identified Christians (and a majority of Americans) are against gay marriage, a strong minority of self-identified religious people (and a majority of Americans) are for civil partnerships for same sex couples. The catholics in particular tend to be far more open to civil unions than protestants.

http://www.galluppoll.com/content/?CI=11689 (Requires subscription)

Religion is not a simple left-or-right equation in the US anymore, and among younger religious people they tend to be even more liberal.