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carlitoswhey
Here you can see video of John Kerry at a campaign appearance for Phil Angelides' gubernatorial run in California. To the students and others present, he said:

QUOTE
You know, education--if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework, and you make an effort to be smart, uh, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq


Lots of soldiers and others found this to be insulting to the troops in Iraq. White House spokesman Tony Snow, John McCain and others demanded an apology. Today, Kerry is claiming that he was criticizing George Bush, and issued this remarkable statement (I'm assuming a political statement can be quoted in full).

QUOTE
Statement of John Kerry Responding to Republican Distortions, Pathetic Tony Snow Diversions and Distractions

Washington – Senator John Kerry issued the following statement in response to White House Press Secretary Tony Snow, assorted right wing nut-jobs, and right wing talk show hosts desperately distorting Kerry’s comments about President Bush to divert attention from their disastrous record:

“If anyone thinks a veteran would criticize the more than 140,000 heroes serving in Iraq and not the president who got us stuck there, they're crazy. This is the classic G.O.P. playbook. I’m sick and tired of these despicable Republican attacks that always seem to come from those who never can be found to serve in war, but love to attack those who did.

I’m not going to be lectured by a stuffed suit White House mouthpiece standing behind a podium, or doughy Rush Limbaugh, who no doubt today will take a break from belittling Michael J. Fox’s Parkinson’s disease to start lying about me just as they have lied about Iraq. It disgusts me that these Republican hacks, who have never worn the uniform of our country lie and distort so blatantly and carelessly about those who have.

The people who owe our troops an apology are George W. Bush and Dick Cheney who misled America into war and have given us a Katrina foreign policy that has betrayed our ideals, killed and maimed our soldiers, and widened the terrorist threat instead of defeating it. These Republicans are afraid to debate veterans who live and breathe the concerns of our troops, not the empty slogans of an Administration that sent our brave troops to war without body armor.

Bottom line, these Republicans want to debate straw men because they’re afraid to debate real men. And this time it won’t work because we’re going to stay in their face with the truth and deny them even a sliver of light for their distortions. No Democrat will be bullied by an administration that has a cut and run policy in Afghanistan and a stand still and lose strategy in Iraq.”


Despite (or perhaps because of) being a veteran, Kerry has previously criticized US troops.

Back in the 70's he testified that troops in Vietnam raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, razed villages and rampaged "in a manner reminiscent of Genghis Khan." Last year, he stated that our troops shouldn't be in Iraq "going into the homes of Iraqis in the dead of night, terrorizing kids and children,

After seeing the video, do you believe Senator Kerry meant to refer to George Bush?

Or, was he refering to our troops as uneducated?

As for his response, given that the country is largely against the Iraq War, will this tough talk help Democratic candidates in next week's elections?

Bonus - Bush and Kerry both had mediocre grades at Yale. Discuss.

--------

Fife and Drum adds this quote and these other questions:

Reply from the White House:

QUOTE(Tony Snow)
“Senator Kerry not only owes an apology to those who are serving, but also to the families of those who’ve given their lives in this,” White House press secretary Tony Snow said. “This is an absolute insult.”


As Tony Snow stated, does John Kerry owe an apology to those who are serving and their families?

Or is their an element of truth in Kerry's statement?

Considering the “flap” over Kerry’s swift boat service and his comments that he's considering running for president again, was this a wise statement?

Considering the service record of George Bush and deferment specialist first class Cheney, is it prudent for the White House to bring military service up as a subject this close to the election?
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Tim (M)
QUOTE

After seeing the video, do you believe Senator Kerry meant to refer to George Bush?


Or, was he refering to our troops as uneducated?


I have a political bias so my opinion to what Kerry meant may be tainted. First impression, he was saying under educated individuals go to Iraq. I didn't have any feeling that he meant anything to do with Bush. Granted, that was only an small piece of his speech, so there could be some missing pieces key to the discussion.

QUOTE
As for his response, given that the country is largely against the Iraq War, will this tough talk help Democratic candidates in next week's elections?


I know the polls state the war is not supported, but I still find that to not to be an absolute truth. Only 26% of our military personal show that we should have not gone to war and most of the advocates against the war are more vocal than pro-war advocates. I think and larger sampling in more random areas would generate a very surprising support for the war.

Regarding helping the democratic candidates, I suppose it depends on the state. Large military states might take another look at supporting their Democratic candidate, but that is only speculation.


Sweet Caroline
QUOTE
Lots of soldiers and others found this to be insulting to the troops in Iraq.

I haven't seen any reports of lots of soldiers finding this insulting, but I think that will be the case. I hope that many soldiers will take the remark in the spirit in which it was meant. I hope that Kerry's finally having the courage to speak out and unequivocally challenge the spin from the White House will have the effect of encouraging soldiers to speak out as well.

Kerry should not apologize at all. Neither should he get into the trap of explaining or trying to rephrase his remarks. That is a sign of weakness and backing down. I think the troops and everyone will respect him more if he stands firm. Too much is at stake for him to back away from his tough remarks.

As for his testimony in the 70s, I think he testified that others had made those claims. Kerry was not making those claims himself. Here is the passage from the article to which you linked that supports my statement.

QUOTE
They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.


I think those who want to believe Kerry was saying our troops are uneducated will believe that. But the fact that the uneducated can end up in Iraq does not mean that all uneducated end up there nor that only uneducated end up there.
carlitoswhey
QUOTE(Sweet Caroline @ Oct 31 2006, 03:57 PM) *

QUOTE
Lots of soldiers and others found this to be insulting to the troops in Iraq.

I haven't seen any reports of lots of soldiers finding this insulting, but I think that will be the case.

Besides ex-soldier John McCain, The American Legion has asked for an apology. I heard several indignant military men on the radio this morning.

QUOTE
I hope that many soldiers will take the remark in the spirit in which it was meant.

<snip>

But the fact that the uneducated can end up in Iraq does not mean that all uneducated end up there nor that only uneducated end up there.

Can you clarify what you think he meant? Because our military is better educated than the general public by any conceivable measure.
DaytonRocker
If he were talking about someone like me and almost every enlisted (as opposed to officers) person I served with, I say he called it exactly like it is.

I joined the Marines because I didn't apply myself in school and without the financial resources to pay for college, I had to enter the service to get out of the projects in Baltimore City and have a life.

Only a very few I served with were in the service for love of country alone and they were deemed to be "lifers". Nothing wrong with it, but they were the exception - not the rule. And generally, they never shared in the camaraderie as the rest of us because we did things that ran the risk of getting us into a little trouble.

However, any conflicts that would have come up, I would have went. I knew that when I joined and would have never complained.

What Kerry said is simple common sense - if you joined the service to get the benefits that include higher education, Bush is sending you to fight a war of choice and you may die.

But the talking heads will be thinking like 40 year olds while telling you what 20 year olds are thinking. The only thing my and my friends cared about were getting hammered and getting laid. We paid very little difference to the civic discussions that consume people like us. We only cared about serving our time, staying safe, and making sure our bunkmate's back was covered.

The reality of what Kerry said will be lost on those who never served or somehow can believe Kerry hates our troops and/or means to disrespect them. His statement reflects the complete waste of life that continues for this sorry excuse for a war that has yielded no tangible results and has no strategic goals.

Kerry's mistake is allowing the right wing fear mongers an opening to exploit more hyperbole.

Who hates the troops more? The guy trying to bring them home from a pointless war, or the guy waiting for the elections to be over before rejecting his own "stay the course" failed policy?
Sweet Caroline
QUOTE
Besides ex-soldier John McCain, The American Legion has asked for an apology. I heard several indignant military men on the radio this morning.


I consider that to be political talk and not the views of the troops. Anyone can call in and claim to be a military person, and many probably do. I think what you witnessed is the spin machine cranking up.

DaytonRocker's post sounds reasonable to me.

Blackstone
QUOTE(Sweet Caroline @ Oct 31 2006, 05:37 PM) *
DaytonRocker's post sounds reasonable to me.

So does that mean you don't buy Kerry's pathetic attempt to claim he wasn't talking about the troops at all, but instead was somehow referring to Bush?

As for his response, given that the country is largely against the Iraq War, will this tough talk help Democratic candidates in next week's elections?

It's not "tough talk". It's run-as-fast-as-I-can-from-what-I-said-and-pretend-I-really-said-something-else-even-though-a-5-year-
old-can-see-how-pitifully-transparent-such-weaseling-is talk. Classic Kerry, all the way. And it definitely won't help the Democrats, unless they repudiate it without mercy.


Edited to fix link and therefore formatting -J
Sweet Caroline
QUOTE
So does that mean you don't buy Kerry's pathetic attempt to claim he wasn't talking about the troops at all, but instead was somehow referring to Bush?

I don't think he said he was referring to Bush. After all, he was talking about going to Iraq. I don't think he meant going to Iraq for a photo op, so he was talking about the troops.

I do buy what you describe as a pathetic attempt. Here's why. There is no reason (except political) to think that Kerry has disdain for the troops. I think he was saying that Bush's policy has caused the situation he described.

I also think he should not dignify complaints about his remarks with explanations. He was right. He should stand firm against Bush and the failed policies.

And I think that right wingers will make a bigger and bigger issue of this because that's what they do and that's all they've got and it takes attention from their failures and places the attention on parsing Kerry's statement. He was riled, as he should have been. And when riled, people don't always state things as well as they might otherwise. Attempts to make an issue of this are not done out of concern for the troops. It is for purely political reasons. But some folks prefer to make the troops think that the people back home, especially Democrats, are disparaging them.

The right has suggested that liberals should watch what they say to avoid demoralizing the troops. The same could be said of the right making more of Kerry’s statement than he intended. No one using a dab of logic would think that Kerry was insulting the troops.

QUOTE
It's run-as-fast-as-I-can-from-what-I-said-and-pretend-I-really-said-something-else-even-though-a-5-year-
old-can-see-how-pitifully-transparent-such-weaseling-is talk

No, a five-year-old would not think of it as weaseling, and it isn't weaseling. There was nothing wrong with his remark. He found the courage to speak out and should neither apologize nor explain. But I expect he will. Too bad.
DaytonRocker
Actually, upon further review, I wish to amend my remarks...

I hadn't thought about Kerry talking about Bush and it sounds far more plausible that was what he was talking about. Face it, Bush is not held as exactly "smart". In fact, far from it.

Bush graduated from Yale and didn't exactly fly through with honors (although he did slightly better than Kerry). And since then, he's showed no signs of brilliance. Now he has us stuck in Iraq with no easy way out. Not a stroke of genius by any measure.

But if you wanted to believe the worst, his statement could have meant that the troops were too stupid to go to school and and have no other choice then to go to Iraq to get themselves killed. Uh-huh....Kerry is dumb enough to say something like that a week before an election even if he believed it. Gee whiz...next thing you know, Kerry will admit to tearing the tags of his matress A WEEK BEFORE AN ELECTION!!!111ELEVENTY!!!111!!!

Seriously, I don't think it's plausible that Kerry would purposely talk bad about our troops ever, but especially a week before an election. I think it's far more likely that Kerry would be talking smack about Bush in the hopes of highlighting all his failed policies (of course, except for tax cuts, I can't think of one that hasn't failed) would get people's attention.

Since I hope every republican running in this election gets voted out until republicans with conservative principles get themselves elected, I'm praying for a backlash on this. After watching Kerry's response (which I viewed after my last post), I don't think he even considered someone would think he'd be trashing the troops (which even in the other context, wouldn't be as he's only telling the truth). If he stands on his statement -as I think he should - Kerry will have a huge limelight to show how utterly moronic Bush is. This may backfire on the republicans.
Lesly
After seeing the video, do you believe Senator Kerry meant to refer to George Bush?
Well, I wish there was more to the YouTube video. From the short clip I would say in a manner of speaking, yes, he’s talking about Bush. More precisely, he’s talking about Bush’s failed Iraq policy.

Or, was he referring to our troops as uneducated?
Nope. He was referring to a hypothetical draft. I guess one could argue that this speaks to the troops’ intelligence in a roundabout way. But if this is the conclusion we should reach, then the objective of those accusing Kerry of criticizing the troops is censure.

Carlito duly noted McCain’s outrage. McCain has argued we need to send more troops to Iraq (two years ago, one year ago) and he’s saying we need to increase the Army and Marines by 20,000 (a division) now. McCain is a presidential hopeful. With the Marine Corps missing recruiting quotas and Iraq further destabilizing in no small part to Parliament taking advantage of sectarian divides for political grandstanding, if McCain and others are right that sending thousands more troops to Iraq will stop the violence I don’t think this option is viable without the draft. In 2005 the Marine Corps said it could meet recruiting quotas but was worried about 2006. They failed to meet 2005 and may not meet 2006 quotas.

Interesting side note: During Clinton’s administration every branch missed recruitment quotas, perhaps because of the economic boom... except the Marines.

As for his response, given that the country is largely against the Iraq War, will this tough talk help Democratic candidates in next week's elections?
I think his tough talk will motivate the base. It motivated me. It seems far fetched to think Kerry released that blunt statement with a presidential bid in mind.

What he meant in the YouTube video is beside the point when it comes to his response, although I hope my interpretation of his comment is the correct one.

I decided today I had enough of the conservative “liberal media conspiracy/persecution” meme. After almost eight years in control of both branches and the media’s willingness to sell the administration’s war to the public conservatives are still bitching. Liberals have allowed themselves to get talked into a corner and apologize for the bloody media. I’ve noticed the media is sucking up to the Left lately. Why? Because the media is a de facto lapdog allowing whichever party it perceives to be riding the tide of public support to take it by the leash.

Kerry is a politician and as a politician he can’t afford to make “controversial” statements like I can on ad.gif, but maybe he’s had enough too and thought he could preempt a second Swift Boating job.

As Tony Snow stated, does John Kerry owe an apology to those who are serving and their families?
There is no basis to demand or give an apology.
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CruisingRam
Hey, where was this guy in the election? He should have brought this kind of stuff on back when he was running instead of being all dignified and smart all the time! Too bad we elected the idiot we have now instead of this statesman, sad comment on the electorate indeed. thumbsup.gif

As Tony Snow stated, does John Kerry owe an apology to those who are serving and their families?

NO way, no how. It is as is obvious as his written statement. I wish he would say this on TV as well, make the talk show circuit, while playing a good collection of GW flip flops, and words "Chickhawk" over every GW admin face that didn't serve, or, like GW, had a plan to get out of vietnam, but NOT Iraq. laugh.gif

Or is their an element of truth in Kerry's statement?

He nailed it dead on the head. GW is a nincompoop and his handlers only know sound bites, and know nothing about running the nation.

Considering the “flap” over Kerry’s swift boat service and his comments that he's considering running for president again, was this a wise statement?

Very- the swift boat liars were just that- scoundrells and liars, every one of them. He tried to stay above the mud slinging too long in the presidential race, and should have called them a bunch of lying scumbags, an "in your face" style fight against them. If John Kerry is serious about going for a run again- he needs to do things like the statement he issued, and do it alot, do it enough to get himself heard and putting his vision out there instead of leaving the Rovians to define Kerry. He should hire James Carivel (sp) and Bill Clinton as his campaign manager and speech writer/charisma coach. How to frame a debate 101 and get all up into the Rovian mix. Fight fire with fire. This kind of plain talk would have got him elected- folks will eat that kind of stuff up right now- the more he slams Limbaugh, connects failure to the administration, and the louder he does it, the more viable a candidate he becomes, as long as he comes off as genuinely angry at the incompetance of the admin, NOT a Howard Dean scream either.

Considering the service record of George Bush and deferment specialist first class Cheney, is it prudent for the White House to bring military service up as a subject this close to the election?

You have to be a complete idiot to still be believing that GW has handled this war like a soldier, that is for sure LOL

I am wondering how much punch the Rovian dirty tricks have these days, as the electorate becomes a little more sophisticated, even the red staters laugh.gif - I mean, south carolina bought the Rove push poll against McCain, and the "Kerry will take your bibles away" in Arkansas, it is hard to say- at some point, and it seems the polls are holding true, most folks will start to see through the idiotic sloganeering of this admin, no matter how much Americans like to beat thier chest and yell "were number one" , when our prez is leading us right to stepping in number two! laugh.gif
Blackstone
QUOTE(Sweet Caroline @ Oct 31 2006, 06:11 PM) *
I don't think he said he was referring to Bush. After all, he was talking about going to Iraq. I don't think he meant going to Iraq for a photo op, so he was talking about the troops.

Well, I don't know how to reconcile that interpretation with this actual quote from him in the article I linked to:

QUOTE(Kerry)
My statement yesterday, and the White House knows this full-well, was a botched joke about the president and the president's people and not about the troops.

So yes, he was weaseling, as per his usual procedure.

QUOTE(Sweet Caroline)
He was riled, as he should have been. And when riled, people don't always state things as well as they might otherwise.

He was riled when he was talking to the students about the importance of pursuing a good education? I don't think he was riled. I think he thought he was being cute. Too bad for him it betrayed his true attitude toward the troops, which he then felt the need to squirm out of.

QUOTE
Attempts to make an issue of this are not done out of concern for the troops.

I'm not arguing that his comments have hurt the troops, because they're big enough to brush it off. But it does show his disdainful attitude towards them. Any time you say, "Get yourself a good education or you'll end up like (fill-in-the-blank),", you're not speaking very highly of "(fill-in-the-blank)". It's just not a very polite thing to say about anyone. I know I wouldn't feel terrribly flattered if someone said, "Get yourself a good education, or you'll wind up like Blackstone over there."

And by Kerry's own admission, he agrees that it wasn't a polite thing to say, since he implausibly claims that he was saying it about Bush & Co.


QUOTE(DaytonRocker @ Oct 31 2006, 06:36 PM) *
I hadn't thought about Kerry talking about Bush and it sounds far more plausible that was what he was talking about. Face it, Bush is not held as exactly "smart". In fact, far from it.

Bush graduated from Yale and didn't exactly fly through with honors (although he did slightly better than Kerry). And since then, he's showed no signs of brilliance. Now he has us stuck in Iraq with no easy way out. Not a stroke of genius by any measure.

All very interesting, but it's not plausible. If he was making a federal campaign speech, you'd have a point. But he was talking to a group of students about the importance of getting an education, and his comments therefore could only have referred to what might happen to the students themselves. If he has the intelligence you give him credit for, he'd know that that's exactly how the students would have understood it. He probably thought that his comments wouldn't have been picked up on by the world outside. He probably figured he was in "friendly territory".


QUOTE(Lesly @ Oct 31 2006, 06:47 PM) *
Or, was he referring to our troops as uneducated?
Nope. He was referring to a hypothetical draft. I guess one could argue that this speaks to the troops’ intelligence in a roundabout way. But then if this is the conclusion we should reach, then the objective of those accusing Kerry of criticizing the troops is censure.

So just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, when he said, "you get stuck in Iraq," you're saying he meant, stuck in Iraq as a soldier?
Sweet Caroline
QUOTE
Too bad for him it betrayed his true attitude toward the troops, which he then felt the need to squirm out of.

QUOTE
But it does show his disdainful attitude towards them.

Anyone who believes that Kerry has disdain for the troops wants to believe that and nothing could convince him otherwise. I don't even think George Bush who lied to get those troops in harm's way has disdain for the troops. I don't think he sees them as anything except something for him to use to further his goals. But then, Kerry was a decorated warrior and Bush was a draft dodger who felt entitled to his cushy job that kept him safe from the war.
Lesly
QUOTE(Blackstone @ Oct 31 2006, 07:10 PM) *
QUOTE(Lesly @ Oct 31 2006, 06:47 PM) *
Or, was he referring to our troops as uneducated?
Nope. He was referring to a hypothetical draft. I guess one could argue that this speaks to the troops’ intelligence in a roundabout way. But then if this is the conclusion we should reach, then the objective of those accusing Kerry of criticizing the troops is censure.

So just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, when he said, "you get stuck in Iraq," you're saying he meant, stuck in Iraq as a soldier?

That's the way I took his comment. Stuck in Iraq as a drafted soldier. Although he made a campaign appearance for someone, the blurb casts his statement in an educational context.
CruisingRam
Oh lord, that answer is so easy-

You don't have rich parents, you graduate from school with medicore grades- you have some opportunities for supporting yourself through college if you want to do something other than saying "hey, you want fries with that" or "I am here to mow your lawn"- so what is the best way to college for someone that can't get a scholarship and has to deal with an "entry level" job? You end up going to Iraq for an extended stay in a sand box. There is no delusions that the president gives a rat's fanny about your life, just about his political need to "stay the course" whistling.gif - and no way to say when you get to return, because the GW group has instituted the backdoor draft. So a couple years of awful duty to pay for not applyying yourself in college or highschool.

Seems pretty much what he was saying to most, except, as he pointed out "to right wing whackos, Republican stuffed suits in the white house"- but I think it is pretty plain. laugh.gif
lordhelmet
QUOTE(carlitoswhey @ Oct 31 2006, 05:13 PM) *


QUOTE(Tony Snow)
“Senator Kerry not only owes an apology to those who are serving, but also to the families of those who’ve given their lives in this,” White House press secretary Tony Snow said. “This is an absolute insult.”


As Tony Snow stated, does John Kerry owe an apology to those who are serving and their families?

Or is their an element of truth in Kerry's statement?

Considering the “flap” over Kerry’s swift boat service and his comments that he's considering running for president again, was this a wise statement?

Considering the service record of George Bush and deferment specialist first class Cheney, is it prudent for the White House to bring military service up as a subject this close to the election?


Mr. Rove is indeed a happy camper tonight. John F. Kerry once again found a way to blow the democrat's advantage via his big mouth. He is, as Rove once said, the "gift that keeps on giving".

The noise around the last days of the election were dominated by Limbaugh's insensitive treatment of M. J. Fox. But Kerry (and Mr. Webb's porno novels) put an end to that.

I have a mental image of James Carville breaking dishes right now and pulling off his socks while his wife, and GOP strategist, physically restrains him from shoving them in Kerry's mouth!

The democrats managed to hide Pelosi somewhere in an undisclosed bunker. Reid? AWOL. Dean? Pretty quiet. Kennedy? They must have locked him in a room full of Dewers or something. But Kerry? Leave it to Mighty Mouse to pull a political Leon Lett and fumble the ball just before the democrats run into the proverbial end zone.

I have a feeling that my prediction (in another thread) will be exactly right. This will not change anti-republican minds at all. But it WILL motivate the GOP base to get out and actually VOTE. People on the fence may be put off by Kerry's remarks and that will cost a few percent in close races.

This is a close election hinging on turnout. Rove and Mehlman are sending thank-you cards to all of Kerry's luxury mansions tonight.

As a democrat said tonight (per ABC News)....

QUOTE
A Democratic congressman told ABC News, Tuesday, "I guess Kerry wasn't content blowing 2004, now he wants to blow 2006, too.


The real debate is the stages that democrats will go through when they lose.

1. Denial.
2. Depression.
3. Anger.

Who will be the target for their anger? Kerry? Diebold? Bush?
Sweet Caroline
QUOTE
Mr. Rove is indeed a happy camper tonight. John F. Kerry once again found a way to blow the democrat's advantage via his big mouth. He is, as Rove once said, the "gift that keeps on giving".

It might work out that way. But it is also possible that the troops and the general public have wised up and are sick of the ugly spin and will start thinking for themselves. When that happens, the Republican Party is in trouble. And I guess one of us can come back and gloat next week.

What I don’t understand is why anyone would want his party to win on based disingenuous and dishonest spin instead of on the real issues.

Kerry made a lame joke. Period. Bush has done worse.
DaytonRocker
QUOTE(lordhelmet @ Oct 31 2006, 07:34 PM) *

I have a feeling that my prediction (in another thread) will be exactly right. This will not change anti-republican minds at all. But it WILL motivate the GOP base to get out and actually VOTE. People on the fence may be put off by Kerry's remarks and that will cost a few percent in close races.

I think you are correct. Kerry - right or wrong - energized the base. So, many republicans will vote for a party that has expanded government larger than any democratic government ever has, has used the government to meddle in the private affairs of it's citizens (Shiavo), won't close the borders after a major attack, allow thousand of Americans to be slaughtered in Iraq for political reasons, has ran up a deficit larger than all the previous administrations combined, spend like drunken sailors on shore leave, spy on it's own citizens, and suspend habeas corpus at will, because they are too afraid to vote for a democrat instead of rewarding poor performance.

Here's how bad the GOP has bastardized the English language for political purposes. Kerry stated long ago that troops going door to door (which they never, EVER should have had to do) was terrorizing women and children. If someone broke into my house with guns and ransacked the house, I would say me and my family were terrorized. Does this mean they fly airplanes into buildings? Of course not. But Brit Hume is using that statement as a basis to conclude Kerry was purposely trashing our troops. Brit Hume and people of his ilk make the "terrorizing" reference that existed long before 9/11 to mean a link with Osama Bin Laden.

Now Kerry is at a university telling students to basically, try hard at college. Don't just show up and go through the motions like Bush did (at least according to Kerry) or you could end up with a mess of biblical proportions (which republicans like to call "a winning strategy") like Iraq. The initial instinct is to find fault with his statement and the instant assumption (which I admit I made and believe I was wrong) is he was talking about our troops. Kerry has never criticized our troops. He has criticized the actions of our troops that resulted because of the stupidity of our leadership.

One thing's for certain, nobody could count on the current crop of republicans to change our government's bad behavior. If you're not brave enough to vote for the opposing party to make your vote mean something, you're certainly not brave enough to revolt against a tyrannical government that happens to be republican. When you don't have a record to run on, you're reduced to running on opponents fictional books and public statements. Kerry fed this strategy no matter what he meant.
gordo
As Tony Snow stated, does John Kerry owe an apology to those who are serving and their families?

No, John Kerry is probably just being crushed under the idea of a draft, for I am sure that if a republican controlled government wants that its not going to spring it our right now.

Or is their an element of truth in Kerry's statement?

Yes, simple point being Bush.

Considering the “flap” over Kerry’s swift boat service and his comments that he's considering running for president again, was this a wise statement?

Well, being that our current heroes in office themselves never even carried a rifle or shot one in service, except for NRA poster boy Cheney, I did not find it to surprising that his actual service for our country would have to be a center piece to destroy. On to the statement, I don’t think Kerry could hurt the dems right now even if he came on stage and burnt a flag.

Considering the service record of George Bush and deferment specialist first class Cheney, is it prudent for the White House to bring military service up as a subject this close to the election?

No, what will come from the white house will be the usual, everything is fine, terrorists are going to nuke us, and I am from Texas and here I am. Its going to be that simply because those great minds really have trouble discerning light and sound actually, so writers have to be in place simply because if they do happen to get to speak its usually hilarious as much as its damaging..
BaphometsAdvocate
Kerry is a total liability.

He basically said stupid people with poor work ethics go to Iraq. Don't try and spin this as some slight on Bush. He didn't even have Bush on the brain when he said it.

He's probably cost the Dems some but worse he's energized the Right.

Despite my political leanings I do NOT want an RRR government. I want REAL balance.

Kerry really screwed up.
English Horn
QUOTE(lordhelmet @ Oct 31 2006, 08:34 PM) *

The real debate is the stages that democrats will go through when they lose.

1. Denial.
2. Depression.
3. Anger.

Who will be the target for their anger? Kerry? Diebold? Bush?


Just for kicks I talked to a tableful of my coworkers about this. Out of 14 people, one (!) heard about this story. Of course, this was a table full of people who probably never watch Fox News, but nevertheless... There's NO STORY here, and if anybody would bother to read the transcript or listen to the entire speech and not jsut the line taken out of the context it will be clear that Kerry was talking about Bush, not military in general.

Kerry owes apology to noone. This is just another desperate attack of Republicans who finally have something - something! - to hang their sorry election hopes on. If you, lordhelmet, believe that Senator Santorum will be re-elected, or Katherine Harris somehow will get over her 25-point deficit, or the majority of other races leaning solidly Democratic will all of a sudden turn Republican, I'd like to try the weed you're smoking, because it must be some potent stuff. Republican party run of the dirtiest campaigns on record; here in Connecticut the rate of negative ads by Republicans compared to negative ads by Democrats is somewhere around 3:1 ratio. The fish rots from the head; this fully applies to the Republican party and its leaders. People are tired of bums, and they will throw the bums out. Anger? Denial? I don't think so. I am very looking forward to my celebratory cigar which I will lit up next Tuesday. smoke.gif
Blackstone
QUOTE(Lesly @ Oct 31 2006, 07:22 PM) *

QUOTE(Blackstone @ Oct 31 2006, 07:10 PM) *
QUOTE(Lesly @ Oct 31 2006, 06:47 PM) *
Or, was he referring to our troops as uneducated?
Nope. He was referring to a hypothetical draft. I guess one could argue that this speaks to the troops’ intelligence in a roundabout way. But then if this is the conclusion we should reach, then the objective of those accusing Kerry of criticizing the troops is censure.

So just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, when he said, "you get stuck in Iraq," you're saying he meant, stuck in Iraq as a soldier?

That's the way I took his comment. Stuck in Iraq as a drafted soldier. Although he made a campaign appearance for someone, the blurb casts his statement in an educational context.

The only reason I asked is that that's not how Kerry himself later explained his own statement. As my link at #7 showed, Kerry insisted that it was a "joke" at Bush's expense. In other words, "stuck in Iraq", according to this explanation he's asking us to believe, referred to the President allegedly getting himself stuck there.
BoF
QUOTE(Blackstone @ Oct 31 2006, 04:52 PM) *

QUOTE(Sweet Caroline @ Oct 31 2006, 05:37 PM) *
DaytonRocker's post sounds reasonable to me.

So does that mean you don't buy Kerry's pathetic attempt to claim he wasn't talking about the troops at all, but instead was somehow referring to Bush?

As for his response, given that the country is largely against the Iraq War, will this tough talk help Democratic candidates in next week's elections?

It's not "tough talk". It's run-as-fast-as-I-can-from-what-I-said-and-pretend-I-really-said-something-else-even-though-a-5-year-
old-can-see-how-pitifully-transparent-such-weaseling-is talk. Classic Kerry, all the way. And it definitely won't help the Democrats, unless they repudiate it without mercy.


Nice job of editorializing your FNC link title. "Pathetic attempt?" Although we don't know it's a FNC link, we know where Blackstone is coming from before we even click.

Kerry was talking about Bush immediately before the statement. In context his explanation about referring to Bush is as credible as Blackstone's link or the rantings I heard from Sean Hannity this afternoon.

This is a nothing issue and a pathetic attempt by the right to salvage next week's election.
Lesly
QUOTE(Blackstone @ Oct 31 2006, 08:47 PM) *
QUOTE(Lesly @ Oct 31 2006, 07:22 PM) *
QUOTE(Blackstone @ Oct 31 2006, 07:10 PM) *
QUOTE(Lesly @ Oct 31 2006, 06:47 PM) *
Or, was he referring to our troops as uneducated?
Nope. He was referring to a hypothetical draft. I guess one could argue that this speaks to the troops’ intelligence in a roundabout way. But then if this is the conclusion we should reach, then the objective of those accusing Kerry of criticizing the troops is censure.

So just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, when he said, "you get stuck in Iraq," you're saying he meant, stuck in Iraq as a soldier?

That's the way I took his comment. Stuck in Iraq as a drafted soldier. Although he made a campaign appearance for someone, the blurb casts his statement in an educational context.

The only reason I asked is that that's not how Kerry himself later explained his own statement. As my link at #7 showed, Kerry insisted that it was a "joke" at Bush's expense. In other words, "stuck in Iraq", according to this explanation he's asking us to believe, referred to the President allegedly getting himself stuck there.

Okay. I didn’t pay much attention to anyone’s post except for Carlito’s when I responded. I didn’t want to rethink my impression based on the opinion of people who posted before me. I read about Kerry’s statement when I got home.

If you’re referring to Kerry’s AUMF vote I never in my wildest, perhaps naïve dreams, thought passage of the resolution would result in Iraq’s invasion. I believed no matter how partisan the new administration could be it would not abuse the public’s trust. I don’t think I’m going soft on Democratic politicians when I say I think they felt the same way I did. However, that trust has been breached, and since then Democrats voting yea for legislation I disagree with won’t get my support.

If Kerry calls that a joke I don’t think it’s worse than Bush’s “those weapons of mass destruction have to be here somewhere” joke. Kerry shouldn’t crack a joke though. I get an image of Ed Munster's face splitting into a grin.
overlandsailor
Having served in the Military both in Desert Shield / Storm, and Enduring / Iraqi Freedom my initial reaction was to be offended by this comment. Not severely, but I do take issue with them (that is assuming of course that the statement quoted is not taken out of context in regard to the rest of the speech he was giving at the time).

Officers in the US Military, have to be college educated (as well as have some officer training along the way). Generally speaking fewer enlisted service members were good in school (high school) then were not. However, there is far less of a divide then people think (and I've known a handful of college educated enlisted personnel). There are a number of people I served with who were good students in high school, but we not financially able to go to college. They chose the military as a way to fund that. There are a host of reasons people join the military. Generally, those who do well in school have more opportunities then those that do not, but other factors are at work as well.

For review:
QUOTE
You know, education--if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework, and you make an effort to be smart, uh, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq


"you make an effort to be smart" bothers me on multiple levels. Though, at 37 that is finally starting to change (I am starting college with my first class this semester), I am not an "educated" person. I did not apply myself in High School because I didn't care to at the time, and I did join the US Navy at 18 years old.

However, my choice to join the Navy was not the only one before me. I could have gone to college (just not the best colleges), trade school, or even gone to work. I choose the Navy because of the combination of career training, money for college, and the adventure / thrill of it.

I did not apply myself in school, and I never worked on officially expanding my education. However, I read all the time, and though I am no genius, I don't know many who would describe me as dumb (though the 4 letter words used to describe me are quite numerous and diverse cool.gif ).

So, as a Veteran I take offense at the implication that I am not "smart".

Secondly, I had an issue with "you get stuck in Iraq". I know service members who feel they were stuck in Iraq (some even felt forgotten). I also know personnel who specifically volunteered to go to Iraq. I myself (as well a several people in my age group) returned to the Military through the reserves just before Iraq specifically to serve there. I and others did this for various reasons. My reason was a sense of obligation. I served there in 90-91 and I felt we left the job undone. When things started to really heat up again, I felt a sense of duty to return and see it though. I was far from the only one.

There are a lot of reasons people join the military:
  • They join because their parent or mentor was in the service before them.
  • They join for the adventure.
  • They join for job training.
  • They join for college money.
  • They join to get away from their family.
  • They join because a judge gave them the choice of the service or prison.
  • They even join because they want to "find themselves".
The reasons people join the service are numerous. Not applying oneself in school is one, but it is far from the only one. Also, there are people in the US military who have never set foot in Iraq because of job description, unit, or dumb luck.

Senator Kerry's comments are offensive because they are so generalized as to be a stereotype. Think of all the various race, culture, religious, sexual persuasion stereotypes out there. Also, consider all of the stereotypes for various careers. There are those out there who say teachers teach because they cannot do. There are those out there who say that people are police officers because they like to hurt people. There are people who say others work in retail because they could not get a "real" job, and the list goes on and on. We as a society do not accept stereotypes an blanket statements about classes of people. I see no reason why we should accept this one.
lordhelmet
QUOTE(Sweet Caroline @ Oct 31 2006, 08:54 PM) *

QUOTE
Mr. Rove is indeed a happy camper tonight. John F. Kerry once again found a way to blow the democrat's advantage via his big mouth. He is, as Rove once said, the "gift that keeps on giving".

It might work out that way. But it is also possible that the troops and the general public have wised up and are sick of the ugly spin and will start thinking for themselves. When that happens, the Republican Party is in trouble. And I guess one of us can come back and gloat next week.

What I don’t understand is why anyone would want his party to win on based disingenuous and dishonest spin instead of on the real issues.

Kerry made a lame joke. Period. Bush has done worse.



What "ugly spin"? Kerry said what Kerry said. I watched the video and read the transcript. His implication was clear and concise. If he meant that "Bush" was stuck in Iraq (his words don't support that), then why didn't he come out immediately and correct the record? His first reaction was to attack Bush, attack "the right wing" and people like Cheney. Kerry "out-Limbaughed Limbaugh" if that was possible. He replicated, and then exceeded Limbaugh's defensive first reaction to the criticism of his ridicule of Michael J. Fox.

The problem is that Kerry is basing his illogic on a premise that is almost 40 years old back to the days of the draft military when the poor, uneducated, and disadvantaged filled the ranks of the military. To John Kerry (and MANY) in the democrat party, we're still in 1968. Why? Well, one would have to do a psycho-analysis to understand the mentality but I suspect it's the last time they were considered "relevant".

The campaign should discuss "real issues"? Since when are democrats concerned with "real issues" in this election? Their entire position is "Iraq is going badly". There entire position is an INCOMPLETE SENTENCE. Iraq is going badly therefore..... (someone from the democrat party fill in the blank please..... for once....).

It's like they should win because they find fault, point out mistakes and then sit back all smug as if they deserve a vote for pointing out the obvious?

This evening, the democrats are in attack mode going after Bush and Cheney as "never having served". Well, George W. Bush flew supersonic F102 aircraft back in the day prior to "fly by wire" and computer controlled flight surfaces. Those "century series" jet had some of the highest accident rates of any American military aircraft flown before or since. Cheney never served in the military, that is true. But his long service in government is as distinguished as anyone alive today. And the sudden infatuation for presidents and VP's who served within the democrat party?? Are you kidding? What military unit did draft-dodger Bill Clinton serve in again? Who did the democrats vote for in 1992? War hero George H.W. Bush? No? What about 1996? War hero Bob Dole? And you're referring to "ugly spin"? Yeah, ugly spin is a basic part of the democrat party arsenal as is situational honesty, situational ethics, and highly selective outrage.

Bush has done worse than Kerry in what? Kerry voted to give Bush the authorization to go to war in Iraq. He said the following, and I quote:

QUOTE
"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." -- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002


and then after the fact when Dean was the early front-runner for the DNC nomination....

QUOTE

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..." -- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003


The Bush administration have made mistakes, in some cases serious mistakes. I think that they severely underestimated the effort required in Iraq and did not understand the underlying force dynamics that would remain when Saddam's oppressive government was removed. But it is a FACT that Saddam's government violated the terms of the first gulf war surrender, were attempting to reestablish their WMD program, had ties with terrorist groups and were committed to helping them attack our country and our interests. The question was what to do about it. Bush pushed for an invasion to cure the problem once and for all and people like Kerry (and Edwards and Reid and Clinton and Edwards) were on board when it was politically convenient to be on board.

And now Kerry, yet again, throws our troops under the bus when it suits him politically. It's part of a "pattern" with him. He did the same thing to those serving in Nam when he had his change of heart. He did it recently when he accused the troops of "terrorizing Iraqi citizens in the dark of night". His idiotic statement in California just confirmed what people already thought of him JUST LIKE Limbaugh's mocking of Michael J. Fox confirmed people's impressions that he's mean spirited and insensitive to those less fortunate.

It does work both ways after all.

Like I said, Kerry botched it for the dems. This story has legs and his "fighting back" just ticks off the supporters of the military even more and makes HIM the focus of this election.

This is not good for the demos. His push back will just carry this story to the weekend and right to the election.

Like I said, I picture Carville and Co. breaking dishes and pounding Wild Turkey tonight. As the Ted Knight character said in the masterpiece motion picture "Caddyshack".... "The Man's a Menace!!".
Sweet Caroline
QUOTE
Like I said, I picture Carville and Co. breaking dishes and pounding Wild Turkey tonight. As the Ted Knight character said in the masterpiece motion picture "Caddyshack".... "The Man's a Menace!!".

I think that right wingers who are disgusted and worried about the polls would agree with you on that point. They are desperate for something, anything to cling to to convince themselves they will not lose control of Congress.

There is NO way that Kerry was insulting troops because there is NO way that Kerry has disdain for the troops. You are grasping at straws and straw men.

Is there a link to the transcript of the entire speech? I can't find it.
lordhelmet
QUOTE(Sweet Caroline @ Oct 31 2006, 11:26 PM) *

QUOTE
Like I said, I picture Carville and Co. breaking dishes and pounding Wild Turkey tonight. As the Ted Knight character said in the masterpiece motion picture "Caddyshack".... "The Man's a Menace!!".

I think that right wingers who are disgusted and worried about the polls would agree with you on that point. They are desperate for something, anything to cling to to convince themselves they will not lose control of Congress.

There is NO way that Kerry was insulting troops because there is NO way that Kerry has disdain for the troops. You are grasping at straws and straw men.

Is there a link to the transcript of the entire speech? I can't find it.


So you haven't read his speech? But you're claim there is "NO way" Kerry was insulting the troops?

How about these doozies?

QUOTE
"I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command...."

"They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country."

"We are also here to ask, and we are here to ask vehemently, where are the leaders of our country? Where is the leadership? We are here to ask where are McNamara, Rostow, Bundy, Gilpatric, and so many others. Where are they now that we, the men whom they sent off to war, have returned? These are commanders who have deserted their troops, and there is no more serious crime in the law of war. The Army says they never leave their wounded. The Marines say they never leave even their dead. These men have left all the casualties and retreated behind a pious shield of public rectitude. They have left the real stuff of their reputations bleaching begin them in the sun in this country...."

JOHN KERRY'S TESTIMONY BEFORE THE SENATE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE, APRIL 22, 1971


And from CBS "Face the Nation"....
Kerry slams the troops again

QUOTE
And there is no reason, Bob, that young American soldiers need to be going into the homes of Iraqis in the dead of night, terrorizing kids and children, you know, women, breaking sort of the customs of the--of--the historical customs, religious customs. Whether you like it or not...

SCHIEFFER: Yeah.

Sen. KERRY: ...Iraqis should be doing that. And after all of these two and a half years, with all of the talk of 210,000 people trained, there just is no excuse for not transferring more of that authority.


Kerry's statements are just another chapter in his long sordid story of throwing our troops, our military, and our defense establishment under the bus when it suits him politically.

John Kerry is not a war hero. He was deemed "unfit for command" by EVERY member of his Vietnam senior chain of command.

That is telling.

And on top of it, he's a foolish politician and a terrible tactician. When he should shut up, he speaks. When he should speak, he shuts up.

He just helped the GOP in a massive way. I predict that the GOP will hold congress and this will be a factor. If they don't, he just made the election WAY closer than it would have been otherwise.

Facts are stubborn things. Kerry is the democrat's problem and the GOP's opportunity. I can't say that I am saddened by this stubborn fact.
gordo
So he is slamming the troops by talking about negative events in Vietnam. I had family in Vietnam, and they happen to agree with Kerry on those issues, its also funny that they hate bush over Iraq for it being basically a Vietnam. Actually I am just I think the third of fourth generation of my family to be cursed with being a veteran of foreign wars.

Just because you where a uniform does not then give you the right to take power from people, to dehumanize them, to do what we hate on criminals for. I though have never bought to much into social status making you more or less human, save for what it comes to severe drug attics, then you have something of a problem in my opinion. The point being, I don’t care if you bag groceries or happen to be a cop or some soldier overseas, none of these titles should free you from responsibility, and as Kerry was talking about, it seems he felt rather burdened by that personal responsibility, yes, lets slam him for that one, great views from the right.

As for anything else, at least Kerry did offer his neck for his country, as much as some people would want to call him other, he never had to come home from that war alive, couch patriots are cowards in my book and always will be, so quick to be patriotic as long as someone else pays the bill in blood and killing. The closest they come to war is probably watching the history channel, I say deploy them for a change.

I take no offense to what Kerry said, someone should say it as it is. If you take the money and benefits out of the army, how many people would "volunteer" I could simply ask, his point on it was to simply use shock tactics as bush used to get elected basically, do good in college or the terrorists will get you, or bushes version, vote for me or the terrorists will get you.





Paladin Elspeth
Kerry could have phrased it better, that I'll agree to in the preceding posts. However, in light of the military adjusting down the academic requirements of its recruits in order to meet its recruitment goals, I would say that what John Kerry was saying had a basis in truth.

Add to that the fact that with the exception of John McCain's son and a few other notable exceptions, the military is made up of a vast majority of lower- and middle class Americans who have not had the benefit, for whatever reason, of a college education, with the exception of maybe some community college studies. The military remains a viable (until you die or are injured) place to have a job, housing, medical and dental care when you don't know what else to do with your life. Of course there are those dedicated soldiers, sailors, Marines, etc. who are serving because they view it as a sacred (albeit poorly-compensated) duty. But it is not true for all of the troops.

Above all else, these troops, whether well-educated or not, have laid it on the line while their "fearless" leaders (who didn't serve or spent a few months safely out of harm's way because Daddy was a Congressman) talk the walk. Of course, the leaders don't as much as get their hands dirty over the conflict. They might break into a sweat (as Rumsfeld might if he were human) when confronted with the consequences of their obfuscations, screw-ups, and attempts to justify the quagmire that is Iraq and the continuing violence in Afghanistan, but their lives are not on the line the way the lives of the troops are.

Tony Snow's attempt at a self-righteous rebuke of Kerry's remark is part of Snow's job (snow job, that is). Does that mean that he made this incompetent administration look any better than Kerry by contrast? That's highly doubtful.

Kerry was politicizing what Republicans consider to be their gig, and that's one reason they're so put out by it. So what better to do with it than to try to twist it into a criticism of the troops? This election season, the GOP has already amply proven that they will stop at nothing to make the opposition look and sound like horse hockey even while they try to climb their backs to get (or stay) on top.
Dingo
The lead up in the series of one liners Kerry was throwing out clearly show he was talking about Bush, not the troops. As he said, he "botched" the controversial line but even in its imperfectly delivered form it isn't hard to get his meaning when placed in context.
Chris Mathews discusses the Kerry quip with Dick Armey

QUOTE

MATHEWS: Just to remind you who are watching, this is the Associated Press account of what John Kerry said yesterday at Pasadena College. "Kerry opened his speech at Pasadena City College with several one-liners, saying at one point that President Bush had lived in Texas but now, quote, 'lives in a state of denial.' He then said, 'Education, you know, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework, and make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq.'

That, Kerry said, was a reference to the president, and if you listen to the transition of words there, it clearly looks like he was talking about President Bush being in a state of denial, not realizing when he took us into Iraq what he was going to face because he didn't study hard in school.
------------------------------
ARMEY: Look, I think John Kerry's right. He's making a defense of himself. He's saying, "Look, I was not maligning the troops. I was maligning the president of the United States.



FargoUT
This comment was in a string of (probably bad) Bush-bashing one-liners. John Kerry, for all he tries, is just plain horrible at comedy. I watched him on Bill Maher recently and I literally had to change the channel due to his attempts at humor. He really needs to stop. It's almost painful to listen to him speak sometimes. Then again, same goes for President Bush. I guess there isn't much of a difference. It all depends on your political viewpoint.

The right wing pundits are extremely successful at paraphrasing and taking statements out of context. I remember listening to Sean Hannity during the 2004 election and, even after a statement by Kerry had been disproven as being taken out of context, continued to play it by itself up until the election. Hannity was well aware of this--he gets a big paycheck for doing such things.

So yeah, this is ridiculous and absurd. It was taken out of context and was meant to be a humorous comment (since Kerry is extremely monotonous, it came off sounding like a serious attack).

Was Kerry's mind AWOL?
Artemise
I see it like this: Get an education so you know what is going on, if not YOU and the whole country end up in Iraq.
It was actually a subtle and deeply intelligent remark, and thats from someone who usually cannot stand
Kerry. It could mean many things on many levels.
Certainly it meant, get an education so you dont have to go into the army like so many desperate poor. Know you are the lucky ones and dont waste it!
The other is 'get educated' so we can avoid the type of wars and atrocities and government robbery, propaganda and corruption which have occurred lately with so much US citizen ignorance.
The message was, take your education seriously! Something which the US is severely lacking with a trend towards dumbing down of the population, defying science, evolution and logic -towards a dependancy on Faith, The Rapture and End Days, blind faith in the government as 'good' and WE as the only Superpower.
This is patently false as we are falling behind every first world nation in technology, infrastructure and care of our own.
Its time someone advocated education in this country.
In the 21st century WAR is not the answer to our problems, and the youth is our only promise towards a better way since the old Dynasties will continue to make profit from an endless supply of cannon fodder.
In this I think Kerry was correct in encouraging college students to 'stay the course' and not supply the war machine, in all too subtle terms.

AuthorMusician
After seeing the video, do you believe Senator Kerry meant to refer to George Bush?

He meant and did refer to the Bush administration's policies and how they will impact a voting segment that seldom votes.

Or, was he refering to our troops as uneducated?

That's a tad warped. Uneducated also means illiterate, and I don't think the armed forces accepts such candidates. If by uneducated it is meant little or no college education, then this question makes a little sense. Otherwise it is hyperbole and an illogical interpretation of what was actually said.

Yep, typical for the last week running up to an election. Republican candidates and the Republican base are very nervous about losing power.

As for his response, given that the country is largely against the Iraq War, will this tough talk help Democratic candidates in next week's elections?

More young voters might actually vote, and I think that will help the Democratic candidates.

Bonus - Bush and Kerry both had mediocre grades at Yale. Discuss.

Poor study habits? Not enough kissing up to the professors? Unconcerned about letter grades? Looks to me that both have done pretty well in the real world despite lackluster GPAs.

This is often the case, as GPA doesn't measure learning so much as playing the game correctly. Nobody hires me for having kept a 3.4 GPA in college, although in an early job interview the issue did come up briefly.

High GPA does seem to be having a comeback among hiring managers. This might be connected to teaching to the test in high school (no child left behind), which looks to me to be a huge step backwards in American education. It also could be connected to lazy thinking, which has certainly made a big comeback in politics.

In any case, GPA is a poor measure of a person. Sill, poor measures are sometimes used in the real world.
Tim (M)
QUOTE(Artemise @ Nov 1 2006, 08:45 AM) *

I see it like this: Get an education so you know what is going on, if not YOU and the whole country end up in Iraq.
It was actually a subtle and deeply intelligent remark, and thats from someone who usually cannot stand
Kerry.


Intelligent remark? I can't even fathom how you can justify this remark as intelligent.

If this was such an intelligent remark, why are many democrats doing damage control as we speak? Braley asks Kerry not to campaign
The Founders Intent
After seeing the video, do you believe Senator Kerry meant to refer to George Bush?
I didn't hear Bush's name spoken once. He stated he was there to speak about education. He didn't say he was there to talk about the war. No, I don't believe it. He once claimed our troops were terrorizing woman and children in the dead of night.
Or, was he refering to our troops as uneducated?
Listen to his words. Who is in Iraq right now, oh yeah maybe he was talking about how stupid Iraqis are.
As for his response, given that the country is largely against the Iraq War, will this tough talk help Democratic candidates in next week's elections?
Kerry is a moron. He did worse in school than Bush. He screwed the Democrats big time with those remarks. He should resign from politics forever, and take that other fathead from Massachusetts with him. The payment for those remarks isn't over yet. More to come....
English Horn
QUOTE(The Founders Intent @ Nov 1 2006, 09:37 AM) *

After seeing the video, do you believe Senator Kerry meant to refer to George Bush?
I didn't hear Bush's name spoken once. He stated he was there to speak about education. He didn't say he was there to talk about the war. No, I don't believe it. He once claimed our troops were terrorizing woman and children in the dead of night.


Which exactly part of Kerry's statement you, and other über-patriotic types, dispute? Do you dispute that our troops conduct searches of Iraqi homes in the dead of the night? Because they did. Or maybe you claim that women and children are not terrorized when their homes are searched and instead greet our troops with bread, salt, and fermented mare's milk? hmmm.gif
Remember the infamous picture with the face of Elian Gonzalez when Special Forces stormed the house he was in? And he was in much better situation...
All Kerry was saying that it should be Iraqis conducting those operations, if they're necessary, not our troops.
bucket
I hate comments like this because I feel like they really play on classism, altho not surprising to see come from the Dems.
I feel like this helps propagate the view that only the needy, undesirables fill the ranks of our military while the intelligentsia is separated and apart from this group, because they deserve to be.

After seeing the video, do you believe Senator Kerry meant to refer to George Bush?


So obviously no I don't think the joke appeared to be in reference to GWB. Perhaps it was, but it didn't come out that way and I really have no clue what his true intentions were, I can only speculate.

Or, was he refereing to our troops as uneducated?
As the comment stands it does appear to be in reference to the troops, but as I noted above more importantly in reference to classism, and where our military fits in in regards to the "ruling" class.
As we have seen from other's comments here the idea that military is of a lesser class than the intelligentsia is not all too uncommon of a view amongst our population. So I don't think it is all that much of a crazy, wild interpretation to take the comments meaning as such.


As Tony Snow stated, does John Kerry owe an apology to those who are serving and their families?


When in politics and when speaking to the nation and sharing your political views you must choose your words well and make sure to clearly impart your views, or else you fail. I don't feel it is the least bit unreasonable to ask Mr. Kerry to take responsibility for his own failures. Accountability is a big talking point in politics these days ...be nice to see some in action. This nation is not a dictatorship and GWB did not get us "stuck" in Iraq alone.

EDITED TO ADD
a response to this...
Which exactly part of Kerry's statement you, and other über-patriotic types, dispute? Do you dispute that our troops conduct searches of Iraqi homes in the dead of the night? Because they did. Or maybe you claim that women and children are not terrorized when their homes are searched and instead greet our troops with bread, salt, and fermented mare's milk?

Need I remind you what the Iraqi military used to do when they were conducting military searches in the "dead of the night"
Babies found in Iraqi mass grave
A mass grave being excavated in a north Iraqi village has yielded evidence that Iraqi forces executed women and children under Saddam Hussein.

Mr. Kerry did not acknowledge that the US military's role in Iraq was to bring democracy, which means more than just voting machines, but accountability to the armed forces and the recognition of human rights.
English Horn
QUOTE(bucket @ Nov 1 2006, 10:17 AM) *

Need I remind you what the Iraqi military used to do when they were conducting military searches in the "dead of the night"
Babies found in Iraqi mass grave
A mass grave being excavated in a north Iraqi village has yielded evidence that Iraqi forces executed women and children under Saddam Hussein.

Mr. Kerry did not acknowledge that the US military's role in Iraq was to bring democracy, which means more than just voting machines, but accountability to the armed forces and the recognition of human rights.


I always thought that the role of US military is to uphold the Constitution and to protect our homeland. "Bring democracy to middle eastern backwaters" is something new... a very non-traditional role for U.S. troops. This role, by the way, came along only after their previous role, "Find WMD which threaten United States" turned out to be a bogus.. but I digress.
What does the mass grave from Saddam's times has to do with anything? Iraq now has a brand spanking new military - as Kerry said, we trained tens of thousands of Iraqi troops - hopefully we taught them about recognition of human rights.
The question is, what is better PR for anti-american forces in Iraq - a picture of Americans doing the nighttime raids, or a picture of Iraqis doing the same thing? It is better for Americans if Iraqis will do that kind of work.
carlitoswhey
After seeing the video, do you believe Senator Kerry meant to refer to George Bush?
Kerry has apparently insulted the intelligence of George Bush several times before, so I actually do believe that he meant to refer to Bush. Which is yet another illustration of how politically tone-deaf this man is.

Let's try to analyze Kerry's logic - using Kerry's actual words to guess his intent.

(George Bush doesn't have) You know, education--(George Bush didn't ) make the most of it or study hard, didn't do his homework,(George Bush makes no) effort to be smart, uh, (George Bush) didn't do well. (George Bush has us) stuck in Iraq.

This is truly the most idiotic logical leap ever. George Bush graduated from Yale, just like Kerry. George Bush flew freaking jet planes, back when you had to press buttons and pull levers to do so. George Bush has an MBA from Harvard. And, hate to say it, he beat John Kerry in an election that we all agree should have gone Democrat 60-40.

Kerry is speaking to college students at Pasadena college. He tells them "study hard and be smart. otherwise, you might be so dumb that you are twice elected President of the United States and mis-manage our foreign policy."

At the least, politically tone deaf, at the worst, just breathtakingly stupid. Either way, the man cannot and should not speak extemporaneously, ever.

Or, was he refering to our troops as uneducated?
I doubt that's what he meant.

As for his response, given that the country is largely against the Iraq War, will this tough talk help Democratic candidates in next week's elections?
I think that Kerry fired up the wrong base in the wrong year. He now has Josh Marshall and Daily Kos defending him.

Bonus - Bush and Kerry both had mediocre grades at Yale. Discuss.
John Kerry got some D's his freshman year at Yale, and ended up in a wrongheaded war. Pehaps he was projecting here.

As Tony Snow stated, does John Kerry owe an apology to those who are serving and their families?
He doesn't owe them one, but it would be smart to do so. He appears not to be headed that way, however.

Or is their an element of truth in Kerry's statement?
DaytonRocker thinks so. Most of the soldiers that I have met are quite smart, but they did volunteer due to lacking either direction or money for college.

Considering the “flap” over Kerry’s swift boat service and his comments that he's considering running for president again, was this a wise statement?
Nope. He really should just forget about his months of military service and try to defend his Senate record. When he goes off about chickenhawks or whatever, he opens himself up to John McCain slapping him down again and again. Stupid.

Considering the service record of George Bush and deferment specialist first class Cheney, is it prudent for the White House to bring military service up as a subject this close to the election?
Considering their record for winning elections at the expense of well-educated Senators from Massachussets, I'd say no.


QUOTE(English Horn)
I always thought that the role of US military is to uphold the Constitution and to protect our homeland. "Bring democracy to middle eastern backwaters" is something new...


Really? That guy who got us stuck in a South Asian backwater once said this:
Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.

Interestingly, the real JFK also said this -
A young man who does not have what it takes to perform military service is not likely to have what it takes to make a living. Today's military rejects include tomorrow's hard-core unemployed.
FargoUT
QUOTE(Tim (M) @ Nov 1 2006, 07:26 AM) *
Intelligent remark? I can't even fathom how you can justify this remark as intelligent.

If this was such an intelligent remark, why are many democrats doing damage control as we speak? Braley asks Kerry not to campaign
It was not intelligently worded (Democrats criticize President Bush for his poor vocabulary, so it goes that they are up for criticism as well). The original verbage for this joke makes the Bush connection far more clear. Kerry, relying on memory, botched the delivery of this joke. As far as damage control, John Kerry has said he doesn't want the Bush administration or the Republican party using a goofed-up joke to sideline the actual issues. Which is an excellent point to make. He argued, correctly I might add, that over 100 soldiers died in Iraq this past month and yet Kerry's botched attempt at humor is the topic of debate. This isn't about damage control--it's about getting back to the real issues. And since the GOP--let's face the truth--is excellent at spinning everything their way, it would make perfect sense to have Kerry just fall off the radar for a bit while things cool down. (Kerry nixes appearance after remark - MSNBC.com)

blink.gif This is absolutely insane and the GOP should be ashamed of themselves. In the context of John Kerry's speech, it is perfectly clear that he meant that President Bush, not doing well in school, got us stuck in Iraq. You wouldn't know it just from listening to the sound byte of Kerry though because it excludes everything he'd said before. The only real criticism to make of Kerry's comments, aside from his exceptionally bad sense of humor, is that Kerry didn't do well in school either. But his comment does contain elements of truth which are hidden. Michael Moore (I know, I know, not exactly the most honest of people) documented how the military targets those young men and women who probably will not be able to afford college. They use the military service as a way to finance their education.

That said, this is not what John Kerry was referring to. He meant solely that President Bush has got us stuck in Iraq with no clear policy as to how we are to get out. I keep hearing from Republicans that the Democrats don't have a clear strategy. When was the last time you heard a clear strategy come from this White House? "Stay the course" is not a clear strategy. Bush just recently seems to acknowledge this. It is time to face facts and stop spinning everything for political gain. We are facing serious problems with this war, the country of Iraq is on the verge of civil war.

*edited to add link*
Fife and Drum
After seeing the video, do you believe Senator Kerry meant to refer to George Bush?

I first read about this (and didn’t see your thread carlitoswhey, apologies for starting another one) and then viewed the video. Reading it I thought the message was apply yourself, do well in school and you might avoid having to join the military as a means to further your education which could land you in Iraq for who knows how long. And in turn was being interpreted/spun as a knock on the troops (reflected in my first two questions).

Even if this was his interpretation I still don’t see how stating the truth, that many enlistees utilize service for college educations (I’ve taught many of them), can be considered a knock.

But after watching the video and understanding the context of his comments, I think it takes on Kerry’s intended message as a clever knock on our simple president.

Or, was he refering to our troops as uneducated?

Since Kerry enlisted after earning his college degree and actually served as an officer I’d say he’s very familiar with the educational level of our troops. And like any large institution, individual educational levels in the armed forces covers the spectrum.

Considering the “flap” over Kerry’s swift boat service and his comments that he's considering running for president again, was this a wise statement?

Considering the service record of George Bush and deferment specialist first class Cheney, is it prudent for the White House to bring military service up as a subject this close to the election?


The reason I asked both of these questions is I don’t think it’s a wise idea for the GOP to try and make hay out of this. As witnessed in this thread, when you bring up Bush/Kerry/troops it will invariably lead to the military service of those involved and quite possibly as Lesly pointed out, that the draft maybe imminent (my interpretation of his comments after I read them the second time around). Let’s get that public discussion going a week before the elections.

QUOTE(lordhelmet)
John Kerry is not a war hero. He was deemed "unfit for command" by EVERY member of his Vietnam senior chain of command.

I understand you have a hard time with the truth at times and as usual this statement is being taken out of context. How does one who is “unfit for command” receive SEVERAL promotions? Kind of frames the hypocrisy of his senior command and how Vietnam was just a screwed up mess from the get go. I guess you must believe those unfit for command are moved right up the officer ranks. And I think it’s odd that those who weren’t on his boat were the ones attacking his service but those who actually served on his boat describe him as a selfless hero.

To use your quote:

QUOTE(John Kerry)
"They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country."

If you think it’s ok for our troops to act as barbarians and if you think it’s ok for those who witnessed these acts to just sit back than I can see why you have a beef with Kerry. But in my book, actually serving in combat and having the fortitude to complain about the audacious behavior of our troops makes Kerry more of an American than Bush/Cheeney and the political hacks trying to twist his words.

QUOTE(John Kerry)
And there is no reason, Bob, that young American soldiers need to be going into the homes of Iraqis in the dead of night, terrorizing kids and children, you know, women, breaking sort of the customs of the--of--the historical customs, religious customs. Whether you like it or not...

This underscores the administrations lack of planning and understanding of how to win in Iraq. Kerry apparently learned a lesson in Vietnam: you don’t show up as liberators and terrorize those you’re liberating. Have you ever thought for a second one of the reasons we’re struggling in Iraq is the Iraqi’s see us as barbaric and no better than the thugs we removed and the terrorist who filled the vacuum?

John McCain was a republican that I might have actually voted for, but after his poor acting on FOX last night as he tried to rally the electorate he just lost a lot of respect in my book. I wonder if he was on his meds?

Let the right try and spin this, but they might as well be whizzing in the wind.
lordhelmet
QUOTE(FargoUT @ Nov 1 2006, 12:03 PM) *


blink.gif This is absolutely insane and the GOP should be ashamed of themselves. In the context of John Kerry's speech, it is perfectly clear that he meant that President Bush, not doing well in school, got us stuck in Iraq. You wouldn't know it just from listening to the sound byte of Kerry though because it excludes everything he'd said before. The only real criticism to make of Kerry's comments, aside from his exceptionally bad sense of humor, is that Kerry didn't do well in school either. But his comment does contain elements of truth which are hidden. Michael Moore (I know, I know, not exactly the most honest of people) documented how the military targets those young men and women who probably will not be able to afford college. They use the military service as a way to finance their education.



First, Bush did BETTER than Kerry in school. That's a historical fact. Second, the words that Kerry used were not an attack against Bush but an attack against the troops. THAT is what came out of his mouth.

But, let's give Kerry the benefit of the doubt and assume he messed up his lines. Then WHY didn't he come out immediately and say "what I meant to say was...." and "I apologize to the troops for how that came out, that's not what I meant!". ???

But NOOOOO!

Kerry said "I apologize to NO ONE!".

Instead, he lashed out at the President, Tony Snow, the VP, and a radio talk show host. Characterizing Kerry's reaction as immature is generous at this point. He made his statement on Monday and it's Wednesday. Carville must have managed to evade his wife Mary and manage to tackle Kerry, shove his socks in his mouth, and SILENCE him today (all of his democrat campaign appearances today in Iowa, Minnesota, and Pennsylvania have been cancelled).

I guarantee the democrat strategists know EXACTLY how damaging Kerry's words for but what I don't understand is why they haven't dragged him out there to grovel and apologize for what came out of his mouth.

It makes no sense. It betrays the DNC's incompetence, utter tone deafness with respect to non-elite Americans, and their lack of sensitivity to those serving in the military.

The fraudulent position that "democrats like Kerry support the troops" while they denigrate them, undermine them, and emboldened their battlefield enemies has been exposed as a poor Halloween costume.

And I must thank Kerry for being the gift that just keeps on giving. It'll take him a day or two to get Carvilles socks and the duct tape off his mouth, get the plastic cuffs off, and get to a microphone to apologize.... even if he decides to be "for apology" after he was "against it". Any Kerry flip-flop on apologizing to "no one" will likely come too late and just keep the story alive up to election day.

As Bugs would say... "what a maroon!".
nighttimer
QUOTE(carlitoswhey @ Oct 31 2006, 05:13 PM) *


As Tony Snow stated, does John Kerry owe an apology to those who are serving and their families?

Or is their an element of truth in Kerry's statement?

Considering the “flap” over Kerry’s swift boat service and his comments that he's considering running for president again, was this a wise statement?


John Kerry should man up and apologize to the troops, their families and President Bush. Kerry has never been known for his wit and sense of humor and now we know why. I am willing to bet he will issue an formal apology within the next 24 hours.

Certainly there was an element of truth to Kerry's statement. It's the working classes for make up the majority of troops in the military. Most blue bloods and armchair generals find ways to avoid military service while they wave the flag as some other mother's son march off to war.

Kerry was already damaged goods. His tough talk about fighting Republican smear jobs comes two years too late to make a difference. He can consider running for president again, but his window of opportunity has slammed shut. There are other more vibrant, passionate and electable Democrats than Kerry.

Whether Kerry was right isn't the point. He screwed up the joke and now he looks like the dope. He should take John McCain's advice and apologize. If he's really smart he should go on Fox News to deliver the apology.

That, and fire whomever wrote the "joke" in the first place. dry.gif
FargoUT
QUOTE(lordhelmet @ Nov 1 2006, 10:34 AM) *
First, Bush did BETTER than Kerry in school. That's a historical fact. Second, the words that Kerry used were not an attack against Bush but an attack against the troops. THAT is what came out of his mouth.

But, let's give Kerry the benefit of the doubt and assume he messed up his lines. Then WHY didn't he come out immediately and say "what I meant to say was...." and "I apologize to the troops for how that came out, that's not what I meant!". ???

But NOOOOO!

Kerry said "I apologize to NO ONE!".

Instead, he lashed out at the President, Tony Snow, the VP, and a radio talk show host. Characterizing Kerry's reaction as immature is generous at this point. He made his statement on Monday and it's Wednesday. Carville must have managed to evade his wife Mary and manage to tackle Kerry, shove his socks in his mouth, and SILENCE him today (all of his democrat campaign appearances today in Iowa, Minnesota, and Pennsylvania have been cancelled).

... (excised for quote)
If you are just going to read the talking points of the RNC, then this discussion is going to go nowhere. It's quite funny that you word things exactly the same way as Sean Hannity does. Why is that?
QUOTE
John Kerry should man up and apologize to the troops, their families and President Bush. Kerry has never been known for his wit and sense of humor and now we know why. I am willing to bet he will issue an formal apology within the next 24 hours.

I disagree. I don't think he should apologize. If President Bush can't apologize to the American public for invading a sovereign country based on information that turned out to be false, why should Kerry apologize for a failed attempt at humor?
lordhelmet
QUOTE(nighttimer @ Nov 1 2006, 01:28 PM) *

QUOTE(carlitoswhey @ Oct 31 2006, 05:13 PM) *


As Tony Snow stated, does John Kerry owe an apology to those who are serving and their families?

Or is their an element of truth in Kerry's statement?

Considering the “flap” over Kerry’s swift boat service and his comments that he's considering running for president again, was this a wise statement?


John Kerry should man up and apologize to the troops, their families and President Bush. Kerry has never been known for his wit and sense of humor and now we know why. I am willing to bet he will issue an formal apology within the next 24 hours.

Certainly there was an element of truth to Kerry's statement. It's the working classes for make up the majority of troops in the military. Most blue bloods and armchair generals find ways to avoid military service while they wave the flag as some other mother's son march off to war.

Kerry was already damaged goods. His tough talk about fighting Republican smear jobs comes two years too late to make a difference. He can consider running for president again, but his window of opportunity has slammed shut. There are other more vibrant, passionate and electable Democrats than Kerry.

Whether Kerry was right isn't the point. He screwed up the joke and now he looks like the dope. He should take John McCain's advice and apologize. If he's really smart he should go on Fox News to deliver the apology.

That, and fire whomever wrote the "joke" in the first place. dry.gif



Wow, I feel the earth moving. I agree with a nighttimer post. Not only that, I agree with it 100%.

I think that Kerry will not take your excellent advice. He's too arrogant and too stubborn. He'll drag this out until Thursday or Friday and the feeding frenzy will continue. The news cycle will be dominated by his statement, and the weekend of his "apology" if he gives it and the associated "flip flop" charges of his change of heart (to apologize).

The democrats are already piling on and demanding an apology.

Democrats pile on Kerry

The spin started last night that "The GOP are lying about what Kerry said" has fallen on deaf ears among politicians who know full well what he said and how it was taken. I heard the cheerleaders on CNN, MSNBC, and ABC trying to act as apologists for Kerry but he said what he said.

DaytonRocker
QUOTE(lordhelmet @ Nov 1 2006, 11:34 AM) *

But, let's give Kerry the benefit of the doubt and assume he messed up his lines. Then WHY didn't he come out immediately and say "what I meant to say was...." and "I apologize to the troops for how that came out, that's not what I meant!". ???

OMG...a non-partisan response from lh. Be still my beating heart.

That is the most honest thing I've read on this topic thus far. And regardless if Kerry is right or wrong (and I believe he was absolutely correct either way one decides to interpret it), he should have clarified immediately.

This is why he lost the 2004 election. He can't manage himself. When he should have taken this type of stand against the Swift Boat Liars, he didn't. He let people who were discounted by both the people on Kerry's boat (as stated before, none were on his boat) AND the people in the original village (Nightline interviewed people in the Vietnamese village and validated Kerry's story. The Swift Boat Liars were there a week before and had no luck substantiating their story) dominate the message because Kerry decided to take the high road. Unfortunately, that doesn't work in today's political climate. So, NOW he decides to fight back. Not a good time when he's not exactly relevant this election.

He should have undone the damage the right with their fake outrage caused by blowing this up because they weren't smart enough (and I was one of those at first - I'm man enough to admit it) to comprehend what he was actually saying in context. His lack of apology allowed the right to own the message. Bad, bad idea.
Tim (M)
QUOTE(FargoUT @ Nov 1 2006, 04:03 PM) *

QUOTE(Tim (M) @ Nov 1 2006, 07:26 AM) *
Intelligent remark? I can't even fathom how you can justify this remark as intelligent.

If this was such an intelligent remark, why are many democrats doing damage control as we speak? Braley asks Kerry not to campaign
It was not intelligently worded (Democrats criticize President Bush for his poor vocabulary, so it goes that they are up for criticism as well). The original verbage for this joke makes the Bush connection far more clear. Kerry, relying on memory, botched the delivery of this joke. As far as damage control, John Kerry has said he doesn't want the Bush administration or the Republican party using a goofed-up joke to sideline the actual issues. Which is an excellent point to make. He argued, correctly I might add, that over 100 soldiers died in Iraq this past month and yet Kerry's botched attempt at humor is the topic of debate. This isn't about damage control--it's about getting back to the real issues. And since the GOP--let's face the truth--is excellent at spinning everything their way, it would make perfect sense to have Kerry just fall off the radar for a bit while things cool down. (Kerry nixes appearance after remark - MSNBC.com)

blink.gif This is absolutely insane and the GOP should be ashamed of themselves. In the context of John Kerry's speech, it is perfectly clear that he meant that President Bush, not doing well in school, got us stuck in Iraq. You wouldn't know it just from listening to the sound byte of Kerry though because it excludes everything he'd said before. The only real criticism to make of Kerry's comments, aside from his exceptionally bad sense of humor, is that Kerry didn't do well in school either. But his comment does contain elements of truth which are hidden. Michael Moore (I know, I know, not exactly the most honest of people) documented how the military targets those young men and women who probably will not be able to afford college. They use the military service as a way to finance their education.

That said, this is not what John Kerry was referring to. He meant solely that President Bush has got us stuck in Iraq with no clear policy as to how we are to get out. I keep hearing from Republicans that the Democrats don't have a clear strategy. When was the last time you heard a clear strategy come from this White House? "Stay the course" is not a clear strategy. Bush just recently seems to acknowledge this. It is time to face facts and stop spinning everything for political gain. We are facing serious problems with this war, the country of Iraq is on the verge of civil war.

*edited to add link*


It could have curved this whole issue with a single apology and explination to the men and women serving this country.
nighttimer
QUOTE(lordhelmet @ Nov 1 2006, 01:37 PM) *

Wow, I feel the earth moving. I agree with a nighttimer post. Not only that, I agree with it 100%.


It's been a loooong election season. A lot of bad craziness as Hunter S. Thompson would put it. This time next week it'll all be over except the spinning. wacko.gif

QUOTE
The spin started last night that "The GOP are lying about what Kerry said" has fallen on deaf ears among politicians who know full well what he said and how it was taken. I heard the cheerleaders on CNN, MSNBC, and ABC trying to act as apologists for Kerry but he said what he said.


Well, with all due respect, Fox News has been blasting the story as if Kerry admitted he likes to slip on Teresa's lacy underthings. It's a gaffe. A brain-fart. Just as the Mark Foley drama ran its course and has faded off the front page and on this board, this story will crest and peak even sooner.

Kerry's dumb quip won't change the results of next week's elections that dramatically. Most people don't even know what he said. They just know he said something he shouldn't have.

More than likely most people will consider the source and move on to something more entertaining. dry.gif
carlitoswhey
Ouch. Take a look at this picture. Looks like at least a few soldiers heard the remark and understood what he was saying.

QUOTE(Fife and Drum)
QUOTE(John Kerry)

"They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country."


If you think it’s ok for our troops to act as barbarians and if you think it’s ok for those who witnessed these acts to just sit back than I can see why you have a beef with Kerry. But in my book, actually serving in combat and having the fortitude to complain about the audacious behavior of our troops makes Kerry more of an American than Bush/Cheeney and the political hacks trying to twist his words.

Despite the movies made to the contrary, Kerry was slandering the troops with false testimony. The whole Winter Soldier thing was a scam. Many of those interviewed by VVAW were just lying, and hadn't even been in Vietnam, and even those who had were pressured into false testimony.** No doubt there were atrocities, but for Kerry to buy into the noise that VVAW were selling doesn't speak well of his honor for his fellow soldiers. And even this instance exemplified the Senator's inability to speak, which is so odd, given his background. He said in his testimony "in a manner reminiscent of Jhenjis Khan" Yeesh.

** - just on edit, I think I was a bit too strong here. I should say that "some" and not "many" of the soldiers interviewed were lying and exaggerating. My point on Kerry's dishonor stands, given his gullibility in seeking and repeating such testimony, coupled with his throwing his medals over the white house wall and meeting with the North Vietnamese, as part of his association with VVAW.

Similarly, on Face the Nation - Our troops shouldn't terrorize "kids and children" (seriously - he couldn't even say "women and children" )... and as bucket noted, when the Iraqis terrorized kids and children the results were just a little more, um, terrorizing.

QUOTE(CruisingRam,)
You don't have rich parents, you graduate from school with medicore grades- you have some opportunities for supporting yourself through college if you want to do something other than saying "hey, you want fries with that" or "I am here to mow your lawn"- so what is the best way to college for someone that can't get a scholarship and has to deal with an "entry level" job? You end up going to Iraq for an extended stay in a sand box. There is no delusions that the president gives a rat's fanny about your life, just about his political need to "stay the course" - and no way to say when you get to return, because the GW group has instituted the backdoor draft. So a couple years of awful duty to pay for not applyying yourself in college or highschool.

Let's say that every word you just typed is true. Is John Forbes Kerry in a position to lecture junior college students on the benefits of hard work? Leaving aside George Bush, is there a more pampered, self-obsessed group of individuals on the planet than the US Senate? Kerry's fortune was built by marrying into two other men's fortunes. As a junior college grad, I would roll my eyes if this stuffed suit told me to work hard and apply myself. Not all of us can fall back on law school when we aren't elected to Congress, ya know.
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