A few days ago, Michael Richards effectively "lost it" and screamed racial epithets at two black audience members whom had been heckling him.

Link

Personally, I was shocked by the incident. I considered myself a fan, and quite enjoyed his performances in the "Seinfeld" series. I can't see myself liking the guy anymore. He will always be known for Kramer. And now this incident.

After the incident, Richards issued an apology. He said, amongst other things, that he is "not a racist."

I don't quite know about how to best frame this for debate, as I can't imagine anyone defending Richards' actions. But...

[questions for debate]

Are these kinds of celebrity comments newsworthy?

Do you forgive Richards?

Is his career completely over?

Are these kinds of celebrity comments newsworthy?
I think they are. Not that they influence policy or that they should influence other's behavior, but they give us an insight into the national psyche.

Do you forgive Richards?
No. I don't believe he is "not a racist." Yelling the n-word in anger at people, that's what racists do. He might as well claim to be a vegetarian while eating a rare steak.

Is his career completely over?
It looks like a new outlet for his brand of comedy just opened up...

Are these kinds of celebrity comments newsworthy?

Richards claims he spoke out of anger, not racism. I don't believe that at all. The words that came out under pressure were what was in his inner psychic/heart/being. The question I have - and why I think this is newsworthy is this - is Richards outburst an isolated incident or an expression of latent emotions found in more Americans than we would care to admit? Can racists change their attitudes? Do we need an RA equivalent of AA - perhaps a 12 step recovery program?

Do you forgive Richards?

Forgiveness is an individual thing. Some people hold grudges longer than others. I don't think it's easy to forgive someone when you don't think they are telling the truth.

Is his career completely over?

Celebrities have done all sorts of nutty things and recovered. I would guess that he will eventually recover to some extent.

Of course he is a racist because he called a group of people something they called themselves.

Obviously, the guy is out of control and went beyond a line that could have been 40,000 miles wide. But because he was trying to use words as a weapon to hurt someone hurtling insults at him (which incidentally, they responded in kind), does that mean he thinks blacks are inferior to him? What is racism nowadays? Being a white guy and thinking the n-word?

I don't think anybody knows, but since racism is so easy to find when you're looking for it, it won't matter. We need demons and he went straight to the top of the list.

The guy is an unfunny idiot. Not much to debate there. But if he instead yelled that he hoped the hecklers died in a fire, does that mean he's really a murderer?

Nobody knows except him and the God Almighty. And until I see evidence he owns a Klan robe and supports lynching blacks, I'll just keep it simple and assume he's a world-class idiot. Nothing more - nothing less.

Are these kinds of celebrity comments newsworthy?

If a person is a public figure and makes a donkey out of himself in public, then certainly it’s news. Mel Gibson’s little tirade against Jews was news, too. It also reveals a lot about the man when he tries to make excuses like a whiny little baby. "I was angry." Uh-huh. And the N word comes spilling out of your mouth every time you are angry? Suuuuure.

Comedians are supposed to eat hecklers for lunch and come back for more. Yelling racial epithets at a couple of hecklers and then stomping offstage in a huff sounds pretty darned pathetic to me.

Do you forgive Richards?

It’s not my place to forgive Richards.

Is his career completely over?

I never believed he was all that talented or funny in the first place. One of the hecklers called him a “has-been” and that was probably pretty accurate at the time, but is even more so now. His one claim to fame is his role on Seinfeld. Even his half-baked public apology was at Jerry Seinfeld’s expense (from what I gather, Seinfeld was scheduled to appear as a guest, and asked that Richards get some of this air time).

Are these kinds of celebrity comments newsworthy?
If "Nicole Richie plans to start eating food" is newsworthy, I suppose a beloved-sitcom-character yelling the N word is news.

Do you forgive Richards?
No. Stealing Lenny Bruce's act 40 years too late is unforgivable. Also the bad hair.

Is his career completely over?
As I see billboards for Mel Gibson's "Apocolypto" on my commute, I'd say no. At least, not due to this, perhaps due to lack of talent / bad material selection. If Hollywood Squares is still on, he should get a square. Not a corner, mind you, but a square.

Today's comedian has a cross to bear that he built himself. A comedian of the older generation did an "act" and he told the audience, "This is my act." Today's comic is not doing an act. The audience assumes he's telling the truth. What is truth today may be a damn lie next week.
--Lenny Bruce

Yes. Referencing lynching when responding to hecklers is a pretty strong clue as well.
As for responding in kind, first of all "cracker" simply does not have the history to it the n-word does. Secondly when someone is punched and they respond by punching the person who hit them we should all be a lot more concerned with the motives of the first person more than with the motives of someone who was obviously provoked.

"Are these kinds of celebrity comments newsworthy?"

Not in an ideal world but certainly in this given culture. Given the amount of attention given to star weddings and the like, I figure a beloved character dropping the N-bomb several times is worthy of some media coverage.

Do you forgive Richards? No. He was reckless and offensive with those words and hurt a great many people. However, do I think this reflects the way he feels inside about blacks? Not exactly. I watched the footage and it seemed like the reaction of a thin skinned man desperately trying to get back at two people who were bullying and taunting him. Those two idiots were heckling him (ruining the show for everyone else) he looked up, noticed they were black and said the only thing he could think to say that he knew would turn the tables in that situation. He was speaking from rage. I do not think he meant a word he said....but he said them and should live up to and suffer the consequences of them.

By the way... I do not feel sorry for the hecklers. They invited harsh response (the N word maybe is always off limit) but they were being jerks and I do not care for their feelings. If the set was bad they could have respectfully left and stop ruining the show for people who may have liked it. I feel very sorry for other black people (all other people as well White, Asian whatever) who were in attendence and had to sit through such filth and for blacks who have to feel the pain of those words but I do not feel sorry for those two clowns who were heckling.

Is his career completely over?

What career? He has been washed up for a while.

Are these kinds of celebrity comments newsworthy?

Sure they are. We live in a celebrity society where the words and actions of the rich and famous are seen as guidelines for the rest of us. Actors testify before congress, singers remark on the suitability of serving Presidents and comedians lecture on the state of the black community. If the American public insists on giving these sorts of things serious listenings, then the utterances are indeed newsworthy.

Do you forgive Richards?

Luckily he didn't call me one, so there's nothing for me to forgive.

Is his career completely over?

No. He'll go through a time of contrition, say he's done some soul searching and the ever faithful public will forgive him his transgressions. Not because the public as a whole believes he'll have changed, but because racism and bigotry are such an inherent part of American society we expect little outbreaks like these. There will be those who claim that because blacks use the word it's lost its negative meaning, others will say that its reverse racism to chide him for saying what others say without censure, still others will shout about free speech and that he shouldn't be punished for a single incident which probably doesn't reflect his true feelings anyway. But for those minority members of the public it will likely be seen as just another rich white guy showing his true colors and proving once again that bigotry is alive and well in America, and barely hiding below the surface waiting for a chance to pop up and start the lynchings.

Between 1865 and 1965, more than 6000 blacks died of racial violence in this country, over 2400 were lynched....not that funny without the hecklers I guess.

Is this newsworthy?
I suppose it is since they are "Movie Stars".
Should he be forgiven?
No one is perfect. Did he do and say something stupid of course.
He didn't physical hurt or kill anyone so I guess maybe he should be.
Is his career over?
Who knows. Gibson seems to have been forgiven.
But I have a couple of questions.
Why is it not considered racial slurs when blacks called us honkeys?
And why is it okay for Blacks to use the N word on each other. I find that very offensive, to degrade your own race.
Just wondering!

This is the second time somebody has brought up there being some moral question because some blacks call each other 'Niggers'. Well, I just wanted to set that straight.

It's called appropriation of voice, and it occurrs when a socially disadvantaged group takes over the names they are called by those who dislike them, and makes it their own. Some blacks have been trying for a decade now to take over this term, with limited success. It is used interchanagbly with 'brother' or 'friend' in certain circles. It is used in what is colloquially known as 'ghetto speak', in many, if not most social circles, it is not acceptable regardless of who is saying it. If one of my black collegues called another one a 'nigger' at a symposium here, it would be taken as an insult.

This is not the first example of appropriation of voice, its just a process that has not been completed yet. Other well known examples include the gay community appropriating the term 'Queer', which used to be a terrible insult, and now after several decades of appropriation by the community, has almost become an cceptable term. The other one is 'Quaker', which actually used to be a terribly insulting diminuative for members of the 'Society of Friends', in that they were all pacifists. The community took the name to heart and it has not become their official title, nobody even considers it an isult any more. Mind you, that took bout 3 generations to work....


So the fact that some blacks may in some situations refer to themselves as Nigger, or 'my nigga' in no way alters the insult caused when a white person calls them that. They are not 'demeaning themselves', they are in fact trying to take away one of the more powerful verbal weapons which has been levelled gainst them for about 200 years.


Onstage, was Michael Richards using the term to mean his 'fellow brothers', who apparently "50 years ago would be uside down with a fork in their head" for heckling him?

I think not...

Are these kinds of celebrity comments newsworthy?

Only because the N word was used. It has a tremendous social impact when it comes from a white guy.

Do you forgive Richards?

Sure. I don't really care.

Is his career completely over?

He performed the next night, didn't he? Performance is his career. Sometimes it pays well, other times not.

All great comedians have given society a pile of S word and used the F word liberally. Maybe it's time to shake it up again with the N word.

But, from the article, I figure Richards got caught up and blew his chances to make the hecklers look like fools. The great Carlin often just ignores the jerks, but sometimes comes out with clever zingers. It's part of the art.

Just a few comebacks that might have worked:

"So, I'm not funny, huh? You're not smart. You are ugly though, I'll give you that."

Take comic fall. Get audience laughing. Stare at the hecklers with a laser-locked look, "Yeah, and you were saying?"

"It's so sad when people with small pricks have to compensate somehow. Must be especially bad for you guys."

"Security, would you be so kind as to escort these gentlemen to the funny farm?" Do it in the Kramer voice (upset).

Slap hands to face. Make Kramer squeal. Run from stage waving arms. Run back onto stage waving arms, do the Kramer slide. Carry on.

Or just do what he did. No big whoop. Using the N word is not in itself racist, and besides, you can be one without being black. All you have to do is heckle a hard-working comedian, thus ticking off all around who came for the show. When Carlin came to town, there were several in the all-white audience.

Maybe because blacks didn't own white people as slaves and called them honkeys? I don't think any word carries the hate that the N word does. Honkey, cracker, white trash; none of them convey the painful history of the N word.

As for your second question, many African-Americans feel the same way.

I think it was uncalled-for, and over the line. Hecklers are a fact of life for comedians; the good comedians can shut them up in a heartbeat with a snappy comeback and carry on. The bad ones...well, I guess we've seen what one of bad ones did.

This is ever so true.

I saw Chuck Berry in 1965, (one of about 40 times total) a couple of years after he got out of jail.

Some hecklers in the rear of the old Dallas Memorial Auditorium were giving him a hard time. He stopped and said, "don't take the mike out of my hand and I won't take the mop out of yours." The audience cheered and the hecklers made a hasty retreat out of the auditorium. B-E-A-U-T-I-F-U-L!

What is a honkey?
Maybe because white people feel no shame about their ethnicity, because (until now) they've never had to?




I've never really understood any of this either. I used to listen to a lot of Ice Cube and Cypress Hill back in the 90's as did my brother and several friends. We all took to immitating the way rappers spoke and my brother still calls me 'nigga' when ever I pick up the phone. Is this racist? How are you supposed to 'sing along' to an Ice Cube track without using this word?

Is Ice Cube verboten to white people? If so, why does he sell his records in Europe?



So what does it mean when a black man refers to his white friend as 'my nigga'? How is that 'removing a powerful verbal weapon'? if anything it is an open invitation for the white man to reply in kind.

And it seems to me that if this word still carries so much stigma in the USA that white people are not allowed to use it, then the argument that black people are taking away its sting is simply not true. Quite the contrary in fact. It would be more to the point if people simply stopped using the word, no matter who they were, because it had no releveance.

For as long as the word its self is still in common usage, and actually kept alive and with meaning, by the very people it demeans then it will continue to be used and continue to be a 'powerful verbal weapon'.

So a "disadvantaged" group, by your own definition can't be judged by the same rules as everyone else?

Who is to decide who is "disadvantaged"? Some self appointed elite? Some self appointed "advantaged"?

I find that attitude to be both patronizing and racist at the same time.

If "blacks" call each other "niggahs" then they should be judged the same as a "white" person who uses that word.

If it's "ghetto speak", then a "white" person who uses it is just using "ghetto vernacular". Period. If it's ok for some, then it should be ok for all. And vice versa.

Why should Richards (a liberal democrat) be skewered for using a word that is used more frequently than the "f" word in so-called "rap" music, and for using a word that is ultra-popular in "black stand-up comedy", and in anything that Quentin Tarentino directed?

One can't be "equal" and either be considered a "victim" or patronized as "disadvantaged" and held to a lower standard.

Do you think that "black" people are not equal? If so, please explain. Thanks.

Are these kinds of celebrity comments newsworthy?

If poeple want to watch it- it becomes newsworthy- I think folks miss the point that news is commercial- they say and print what poeple are most interested in - poeple don't want to hear about a tragedy in Darfur- they want to hear about Mel Gibson, or Micheal Richards- kinda silly really. Probably the best thing that has happened to Micheal Richards- quite frankly, he sucks- had he not had a TV show, he would be a feature act at best.

The real deal here is he didn't have his material straight- I do stand up, and I have 45 minutes of "yo mama" jokes to unload on a heckler if they get too stupid. A good stand up PRAYS for a good heckler on a slow night - Man, I get amped up just THINKING about a heckler- how I can unleash 41 years of anger and vitriol and verbally slice them to shreds, forcing them into therapy for the next few years, while others laugh at thier shortcomings- not that I am bitter or anything -

Seriously- a good comic is prepared for this- folks who think "improv" is "improv" don't know comedy- you practice a BIG series of lines "just in case".

It is all in the timing- of course. You wait for the show to be disrupted enough that thier fellow audience members start to get P'O'd because they are interupting the show that they paid good money for. Then you make them part of your act- and I will tell you right now- that person WILL NEVER speak up again at another show LOL

Do you forgive Richards?

No- not because of what he said- but because he is not funny. That was the real problem- the dude's act simply sucks, and somebody called him on it- it was only a matter of time. Dude's been living on his Sienfeld fame as an act too long already- if he had talent as a stand up, this would have never happened.

Is his career completely over?

IF he had an act in the first place- no way- it would only make his noteriety grow and he would have bigger audiences . As it is, he has nothing to fall back on.

Except, of course, the new right wing "daily show" that the link was shown here. That is going to be a nice little KKK fest for sure.

Context. Ice Cube doesn't use the word in angry tirades about how wonderful lynching was.
Hell, Jello Biafra is white and I have never heard anyone complain about the lyrics to Holiday in Cambodia using the n word because it is not used as an insult towards black people.

Not familiar with Jello Biafra I'm afraid since I don't listen to rap much any more. Got too old to keep up with the changing styles.

Actually, I'd say Ice Cube does in fact use the word in angry tirades about how wonderful lynching is*... or would be, its just that instead of talking about the bad old days, he's dreaming of a brave new world where he wants to 'kill Sam' or serve up a 'kentucky fried cracker', etc, etc. There is nothing high and moral about Ice Cube or his lyrics, which is probably why they were so successful in Europe. He is, was, just an angry young man shouting his rage at his audience. Much like the guy who played Kramer.

The only differences betweeen them is Ice Cube took his time to do it with style and a great sound, where as the Kramer guy exploded all over the stage and made himself look stupid

...that and the colour of their skins of course.

So which is more important? 'Context', or the colour of your skin?



*Ice Cube even collaborated in his early works with a crew called 'Da Lynch Mob'.

That's a hoot CR -- now I know why Carlin ignores some hecklers. They just suck too much to have fun with them. I bet the hecklers know that too, and silence is a big putdown.

Comedians actually want hecklers in order to throw out vitriol at them? Huh. Might the hecklers themselves be standup wannabees? I got that impression, as if it's all part of the show. Even suspected shilling going on.

Don't know about Richards' act, never experienced it. I do agree that he hit a career high with Seinfeld. Is it significant that he was playing a club and not an auditorium? Is this like meeting the same people on the way down whom you met on the way up? It's fascinating from a dramatic viewpoint, trying to pinpoint the movie that did this. I'm sure there were many, plus novels and maybe short stories.

Another part of this has to be the Kramer ghost following him around. If this is his most popular act, then he probably hates it. That's gotta hurt.

Are these kinds of celebrity comments newsworthy?

Sure they are. These people are entertainers which people can choose to like or dislike and identifying where a person stands before they sit, can make or break them in the industry i.e. Tom Cruse.

Do you forgive Richards?

Not one bit. If he had addressed his apology better, there might be a slight sway towards forgiveness

Is his career completely over?

I would have to say Yes. I don't see how he can recover from his tirade. He was crazy with hate and there is no way to ever get that image out of peoples heads.

Hecklers are a tough thing AM- first off, they don't have a mike- and lot's of time, the audience only hears some gibberish and bits and pieces of the heckler's comments might not be heard- so if you address them specifically, it may be funny to whoever heard the heckler- but those that did not won't get what is so funny- so you have to NOT adrdress the heckler- but his/her behavior. Drunk pretty blondes are the most often the most obnoxious hecklers. They are so used to every one putting up with thier behavior, that they are shocked- SHOCKED I tell you- when someone DOESN'T kiss thier booties to get into thier pants. So I am most prepared for the pretty blonde on a date LOL- black crowds can be really, really tough, they have a tradition of telling comics when they are on stage when they suck. I opened for Def comedy jam, and believe me- I went in there, as the only white guy, with my A game! In fact- if you approach it right- black audiences are MORE open to jokes on race, any race, if presented in a funny manner- something that Micheal Richards can't really do. I have watched his act several times to see if it has changed- it still sucks, every time. He is a stage actor, NOT a comic. His material is lame, because he really has to stretch boundries to get a laugh.

Goerge Carlin, and Rodney Dangerfield, well, I met both of them while performing at Catch a rising star in Vegas - they both critiqued my act, and were very pleasant and very direct on thier comments. My act is "observational comedy"- meaning, I talk about what I see in life- and guess what- life that you see is not very dirty- so my act is pretty clean- and the "positve" they both gave me was this- they told me that I have an act i could tell in front of my grandmother or at the Appolo- and that is a good thing- I can "drop the F bomb" when I need to in a smokey bar that is a secondary comedy club that way.

Live stand up comedy is probably the hardest form of performance you can participate in- because it REQUIRES feedback from the audience- that is why most folks don't understand when I say " I would rather perform in front of an audience of 6 million than a small one of thirty"- because laughter is infectious, and with big crowds, you get the laugh rolling, it doesn't stop for the entire hour of your act!

Comedy is possibly one of the greatest rushes of my life, pure adrenlin for an adrenilin junky, I don't get a bigger rush going 190mph on the back stretch on my motorcycle like I do when I am "on" and in front of a big audience. Makes you feel like you are flying! It is one of the greatest experiances on earth- and very addicting when done right. Micheal Richards should know better, and have more and better material prepared!

Let me be perfectly clear here- he sinned alright- for not bringing his A game and getting caught for it!

Not rap, punk. Biafra was the lead singer of the Dead Kennedys in the 80s.Admittedly I'm not a huge follower of Cube's, but his music I remember was angry but spelled out why. I can tell you that I was not offended as a gay man by the line in "F___ tha Police" where he calls abusive cops "fags." It wasn't just a blind rant, it was some politically incorrect phrasing in a larger context.

White people are not forbidden from using the n word. It's just something you want to be careful with. When Ali G uses that word he doesn't get the outcry Richards has. It really is all about context.

I listen to every form of music except country, twang drives me mad but that’s besides the point. I don’t think you could easily put the use of the n word in rap into some sentence for digesting, personally while listening to rap music the variance of what that word is connected to at various times seems well rather arbitrary. Moreover I think the best point you could make towards why the word gets used is simply because of Americas past and I guess present when it comes to race relations. For me that’s the closest I have come at anyways towards its understanding. As a person that has lived in various places in America I have had the ability to have friends from various different backgrounds in America. Black friends I have had basically told me the word basically stands for ignorant, I don’t know if it does but being I am white I basically ran with it and still do.

To the topic at hand.

I have no idea why the person did what they did, save maybe just to get some attention, after all that’s what stars happen to be for.

Exactly Grendal - I dropped the N bomb probably 30 times in my act in Def Comedy jam, and got nothing BUT laughs- had one dude up front have a rum and coke come through his nose he laughed so hard- high complement in comedy- getting spit on -

Comics, when in a group with no audience members, just comics, say the nastiest and most un-politically correct stuff you can imagine- because we WANT to say it on stage, but we can't because it won't get a laugh. Dead baby jokes, racial jokes, women's periods and abortion jokes- you name it- but a real comic knows what gets a laugh and what doesn't- it is all about timing and context- I would have had a field day with something like that! Just the fact that I finally get to use my "yo mama" dozen's jokes would have made me thank them as they left

Audiences LIKE politically-incorrect, hard hitting humour IN CONTEXT- they eat it up and come back for more- my style was to switch the roles- and make fun of the "whiggers" , and explore racial stereotypes, gender and sexual stereotypes, in a completely oblique manner. For instance, I list all the bad stereotype comments- then say "it is like a chinese new year calender- you have some good traits, and some bad traits," then list the good things the stereotype lists, until I get to white poeple- well, you have to be there for that one - but, I could do it on Leno or at the Apollo- it is all in context, knowing your audience- and most importantly FUNNY

Micheal Richards has NEVER been funny as a stand up act- I have seen Jerry Sienfeld in person- the dude is straight up one of the best comics on stage- EVER- Micheal Richards is NOT

There is nothing you won't spin is there? This has nothing to do with people being judged by 'rules', this is not about the law or the government, this is about terms that groups find offensive.

'Nigger' is a term which was used for, I don't know, about 2-300 years to insult blacks. So some elements of the black community have tried to ppropriate the term, as has happened a dozen times before in history. Its still a new effort, and obviously is a work in progress. If you call a black person a 'nigger' then the odds are good that they will take offense at this offensive term. Contextually, the same applies for blacks using the term on each other. I swear, sometimes I think you believe Black culture of ALL blakcs in the US is just what you see in bad gangsta-rap videos on MTV. Most blacks don't call each other such terms, and when they do it is contextual.

What was the contaxt of Richards calling these hecklers 'niggers' repeatedly at the top of his lungs? You can infer the context by his statement a sentence earlier that 50 years ago these same blacks would have been killed by lynch mob. You think he was being brotherly? Do you think the blacks (and whites by the way) in the audience had "No Right" to be offended? If not, then you just shot your own point in the foot.

Does context mean nothing to you? If not then I'll tell you what. As a hypothetical experiment, I will start calling you a queer for a post or two. You can't complain of course, because SOME people call ach other queer in SOME contexts and its not offensive, so therefore everyone SHOULD be able to use it in all situations, right?



That's right, I fogot that you insist there is no racism in the US, and ALL the problems the blacks have are their own fault.



"If gay people call each other queer, then they should be judged the same way as a straight person who uses that word". Right queer?




That argument doesn't even make any sense. If there is NO such thing on planet earth as context, you might be right. sadly, there is, and you aren't.




Now you are just ranting, using this argument about Michal Richards screaming 'nigger' and making lynching comments at some blacks as a way to try and weasel in your old arguments about Affirmative Action, and how you think all racism is the fault of Blacks. Well, keep it to those threads, and try and discuss whats on topic in this one.

Are these kinds of celebrity comments newsworthy?
Compared to what? By a strict definition of what news should be (useful), no; by a strict definition of what news is, yes.


Do you forgive Richards?
I'm not black.


Is his career completely over?
Does my opinion matter. If so, no it's not over because I've seen worse.

Okay. Know the name but not the music. Point taken though.


I dunno, it sounds like splitting hairs to me. 'Politically incorrect phrasing in a larger context' doesn't change the fact that Ice Cube's lyrics are filled to the brim with racial slurs and insults, not least against white people, and the only difference I see between Michael Richards ranting about blacks being lynched and Ice Cube rapping about decapitating white people, is Ice Cube got away with it, maybe because he did it with style or maybe because he isn't white... which ever.

I don't know about the states, but some how I doubt a white rapper with lyrics about cutting the heads off black people would be very popular in Europe.

Or he could have said, "I'm obviously the best entertainment you could pay for tonight. " ~or~ (if it was two guys who were the hecklers) "It looks like your boyfriend is diggin' me."

I'm no comedian but, I'll tell you one thing, you never let the heckler know he got you riled. It's a sign of Richards' immaturity as a comdedian. Besides, the hecklers were right. I've never seen his comedy but if he's anything like his character was on Seinfeld, he's awful.

Are these kinds of celebrity comments newsworthy?
I have mixed feelings about it. Maybe its good to see someone be so blatant in their hateful anger if it will help some of us, who might be prone to similar outbursts, see just how bad it looks. It's kind of like seeing road rage occur between two drivers, it makes a person objectively see how absurd it is to get so upset over something so meaningless.

Do you forgive Richards

That's a ridiculous question. He didn't physically harm me or anyone else. He used demeaning language.
He obviously has "anger issues." He needs to work that out for himself and forgive HIMSELF.

Is his career completely over?
I would say yes, for two reasons. #1 - Who would pay to see him now? #2 - He's not talented to begin with, IMO.

You didn't answer my question. Who is to decide who is disadvantaged? You? Some self appointed "advantaged?



You ignored my question again. I think you asked me a question in response so I'll try to answer it. If a gay person calls someone a "queer" then yes, they should be judged the same as a straight person who uses that word. Why wouldn't they?

I take it you believe I'm gay. I'm not. But, I sense that you believe that calling me a queer is some sort of an attack on your part. Why would you attack someone by insinuating that they are gay? That betrays a deep homophobia and a deep seated dislike for gay people if you ask me. Personally, I'm not offended by anyone calling me a "queer" since I know it's not true. Personally, I find it childish on your part. It's just a word and your words mean nothing to me so they could not possibly "hurt" me in any way. So fire away.



No such thing as context in what context? Explain what you MEAN. You've avoided my point and just resorted to belittling my logic and my argument. That's no substitute for debate. If it's ok for the goose, then it should be ok for the gander. Or, does "context" mean having double standards? Having it both ways? Please explain, vermillion.



My statement was simple (and elegant if you ask me). Please explain how it is a "rant". I didn't bring up lynching, affirmative action, and the rest. And furthermore, I've never stated that "all racism" is the "fault of blacks". That's just a misstatement of what I've posted in the past.

I'll restate what I said and please try to address it rather than going off on another tangent.

"One can't be "equal" and either be considered a "victim" or patronized as "disadvantaged" and held to a lower standard".

Now tell me what is wrong with that sentence. Anything?

...which was your first mistake. My 'rant' as you call it was an explanation of appropriation of voice, something at the very heart of the topic, and an explanation of what is going on here. The fact you chose to ignore it is... well, unsurprising.




No I didn't, as it is an asinine question. Nobody decides who is 'disadvantaged', but back when whites started calling Blacks 'niggers' a few hundred years ago, I think not even YOU would argue that Blacks were 'disadvantaged' in the US. Mind you, you consistently deny that any racism exists at all, so maybe your denil does stretch back into US history, I don't know.



No, I didn't, you just ignored the answer. In fact I provided quite a length response as to the significance of context, and how not all terms and comments are equal in all situations, something by the way, a 6-year old can understand.



Now that’s just silly. No, I don’t think you are gay at all. Nor is it meant as an attack, as I explained in GREAT DETAIL. Do you even read posts before responding? YOU are the one saying that is somebody in some situation can use the word 'nigger', then it MUST be appropriate for all people in all situations, a concept which is so utterly inane it defies conceptualisation.

I used' queer' as an example of that. Some people, in SOME contexts can call other 'queer'. Thus according to your logic, it is perfectly appropriate for me to use the same term here, as according to you there is NO SUCH THING as context.

Your attempt to turn a carefully explained and detailed parable into some kind of homophobic attack is just sad.





Dude... that doesn't even make any sense.

Are you SERIOUSLY and HONESTLY (real, honest question here) telling me you see NO difference at ALL between two longtime black friends calling each other 'my niggah' in private, and Michal Richards screaming the term at the top of his lungs on stage? Is that really what you are saying?

I have explained what I MEAN in great detail. If you then choose to ignore it, thats not my problem. Context is everything, not just with this word, but with most of them. Can you honestly not see that?

I mean, step back here. What are you actually arguing? Because some blacks, in some context can call each other 'nigger', therefore ALL people should be able to call all blacks 'niggers' at any time, and those people are not allowed to be offended?

I mean... wow. Thats out there, even for you.



Oh, thats some high class wiggling my dear lordhelmet, but you do yourself a disservice witha all that backpedaling. In fact you have stated several times in very explicit terms that any anti-black racism in the US is the fault of blacks…

Seriously friend, I can quote you saying that five times just by looking at the first two pages of your posting history, and I will HAPPILY quote them all if you insist with this absurd denial.



Well, firstly the sentence structure is so garbled the sentence doesn’t actually mean anything. But I’m guessing that’s not what you meant. Still, kindof amusing though.

However, if you infer what you meant to say from the sentence, then of course it is wrong, it is wrong on basic logic.

Women were first considered ‘equal’ under the law in the US in 1923. t that point, they were legally ‘equals’. Is it correct to say that the status of women in 1924 US was ‘disadvantaged’, or that they were victimised by society? Of course it is. It is entirely possible to be legally considered equals, and yet still be disadvantaged.

The status of women in the US changed only very, very slowly until the advent of Affirmative action, which placed them for the first time on near equal footing with men. In your various attacks on AA, you always seem to forget the vast, clear and measurable change it made in just a few years in the status of women in the US.



NOW THEN,as I said before, you have carried this WAY off topic. This is about Michal Richards foolish use of a term in a derogatory manner, and you have (again) tried to turn it into a thread about general racism and AA. Please confine such discussions to the already active threads on those topics.

So "nobody" decides who is disadvantaged? But you just did a few posts ago. Why? What gives you the right to patronizingly determine who is "disadvantaged"? Did you assume that the target of Richard's slurs were disadvantaged? I saw those guys on TV and they looked middle to upper middle class to me. They may make more money than YOU do, Vermillion. Do you ASSUME because YOU are white and THEY are "black" that they are "disadvantaged"?



Detailed parable, lol. You tried to get a cheap shot in at me by calling me a "queer". Sorry, but your attempts at such putdowns are "Kerry-esque" in how flat they fall and how they have unintended consequences.

Your lame putdown attempt just exposed YOUR homophobia, not mine.



Sorry, I don't buy that. If the "n" word is so bad, then it's bad when it's used between "friends". Why in the world would anyone use that word to someone that they "liked"? I don't call my friends profanities. Such a practice is sick. It's not cute, it's not funny, and it's not "hip". Again, if one wants to be TREATED equally, one must ACT equally.



Have at it. Back up your "any" and "all" assertions. Good luck!



First off, you aren't a moderator and it's not your job to lecture me on who's on topic and who's not. If you want to file a complaint, then do so.

Second, women are not the equal of men. They are women. And you must have very little practical contact and/or experience with women if you believe they are "disadvantaged". That's a naive statement beyond belief.

Third, with respect to the grammatical structure of my sentence, I'll try again to make it clear for you (I thought you were at Oxford. Don't they teach you to READ over there???).

"One cannot be simultaneously be a victim and equal".

Which way do you want to have it. Do you want to profess that "disadvantaged" people are "equal" or that they are "victims"?

You are WAY off the rails here. Thats not even close to anything like I was saying. Apparopriation of voice is traditionally used when disadvantaged groups take upon themselves terms used to insult them. It always has been. That is the source of my use of the term and it is backed up unanimously by history. Its simply a fact. There was NO reference at all to the people in the club. Please try and argue actual points.




Oh please. That doesn't even pass the laugh test. My words and their intent were dead clear, and clearly explained. I'm more than happy to let them speak for themselves, your little attempt to turn this into homophobia demeans you.




Sorry, doesn't make any sense at all. None. Like I said clearly, in the part you quoted and yet never responded to, you reassert here that words and terms have NO context, that is ANYONE can call SOMEBODY a term in a specific context, then it MUST be acceptable in all cases. I have a friend who calls his brother a 'jackass' as almost a pet name, THEREFORE, anyone can at any time call anyone a jackass?

Like I said, your argument doesn't even make basic sense.

I demonstrated that with simple question, can you not see ANY difference between two brothers calling each other 'nigger' and Richards screaming it on stage? If you CAN see a difference, then you accept the existence of contextual reference, and thus your argument is invalid. If you seriously CANNOT see any difference... well... then we know where the problem is.




Not my job, but just a hobby. You wander so far off topic like that, you are in danger of getting the thread closed.



Lordhelmet, you are not even trying anymore. Are you literally TRYING to make yourself look silly? I asked if women in 1924 could be considered disadvantaged. I asked it very clearly and in small words, and this (above) is the response you came up with?

If you are not even going to put the effort in to make sense, why even post?



My reading wasn't the problem, the writing was. Oh I know its silly to make fun of spelling and grammar, lord knows I make enough typos in my posts, I just thought it was amusing you begged me to point out 'anything wrong with the entence' where the sentence structure was completely wrong. A total aside, I admit.





I answered that questions DIRECTLY and CLEARLY with regards to women above. Of course it is posible to be legally equal and yet disadvantaged. Answer that, and please pay more attention.



As to the rest of my previous post (ignored as usual) I'm happy as it stands. You insisting that there is no such thing as anti-black racism in the US, and then calling others in denial. Right. Makes my case for me.

One reason I brought up the example I did is simply because I don't think "honky" or "cracker" have anything approaching the power the n word does, but when Cube called crooked cops "fags" in "F___ tha Police" he was using a word that does have that power. I don't know that non-minorities can really relate to the bone deep shock some words carry. I know that I have never felt the stomach-lurch, fight-or-flight panic that having someone yell "faggot!" dredges up at being called "cracker" or "whitey." Frankly I think anyone who tries to claim the words are equivalent is being disingenuous.
There is also the fact that the whole "kill whitey" thing seems pretty bogus to me. I don't listen to a whole lot of gangsta rap but what I do listen to isn't "kill that cracker because he's white!" it's about anger over larger issues. The only Ice Cube disc I actually own is the first NWA album and there isn't a track on there that could be reasonably interpreted to be about hating white people because they're white. Whereas Richards brought up lynching, and screamed the n word at these guys with no context other than their race. He doesn't even mention heckling, which is what supposedly upset him so much.

Well, comedy is all about context- consider the phrase "would you like a punch in the nose?" It can be a joke, or a statement that I am going to punch you in the nose. Same with comedy.

There is very, very little you CAN'T say on stage anymore, well, in a comedy club venue = there isn't ANYTHING you can't say on stage. You just have to put it in the proper context.

Going on a tirade is just fine - as long as the tirade is framed in the CONTEXT of the act- I have gone on rants that lasted 5 full minutes without hardly taking a breath- and it killed!

He could have dropped the N-bomb a hundred times if it was funny, and delivered correctly- but what we had here is a peformer lose it on stage- also okay- if you are good, and can pull it off. As DP alluded- there are about 10,000 "stock joke comebacks"- from clean to dirty, that would work out great. He didn't even have the old stock stuff prepared! Inexcusable IMHO

At my workplace- we are probably around 50% black in employment at my position- with only about 10% of the employees male and white. NO big deal- race is not an issue there- we form close relationships, we know our boundries- last week, I bought a new pair of boots on sale- they were FUBU shoes. One of my best friends at work, that I have worked with, hung out with, partied with, hell, I even bailed his boy out of jail once- he comes up to me and says (in thickest "thug" accent he can provide- which is quite good) "Yo bro- they's some nigga shoes you got on there"- now context is everything here- had someone I didn't know, of any color, said that to me, I would have been offended. Instead, I knew it was a joke, he knew it was a joke- the context was perfect for this exchange.

the real "sin" of Michael Richards is not having an act, and not having a fall back line for hecklers- unforgivable for a headliner- he wil get NO love from his peers for this.

Don't get it twisted. There are some young people who are ignorant of their history who have made the mistake of thinking they can find some value in a worthless word. But Black people with any sense of self don't call themselves "niggers." Don't forget that while there is a minority within a minority that call each other nigger now, White people called Black people niggers first.



What's a epithet for White people that's as offensive as "nigger" is to Blacks? Honky? Redneck? Cracker? Trailer trash? Whitey? Mister Charlie?

There is no word that takes White people "there" like nigger takes Black people there. I can call every White poster on this board a bunch of honky redneck trailer trash crackers and it wouldn't even begin to carry an ounce of the hatred, the poison and the absolute dehumanizing that comes when the word, "NIGGER" is snarled in anger.

It is not okay, Momof3 "for Blacks to use the N-word on each other." I agree with you it is very offensive to degrade your own race. When I'm walking down the street and I hear young brothers and sisters throwing that word at each other with casual disdain, it makes me cringe. It's like dragging fingernails across a blackboard.

I can guarantee that when my family sits down for Thanksgiving dinner nobody is going to say, "Nigger, hurry up and pass the dressing." I don't hang around niggers. I don't know any niggers. Black people never were niggers. That's just a false identity White racists hung on us to so we would buy into accepting the lie that we were lower life forms and not fully human.

The newsworthiness of a third-rate "comedian" melting down in minimal, but even this pathetic farce offers a teachable moment.

From the social commentator and activist Keith Boykin's blog:

I don't buy the argument that Richards is not "a racist," as he said on Letterman. His hateful words did not come out of nowhere. They seemed to reflect some thoughts he had in his mind at some point, no matter how repressed. I do not mean to single out Richards, however. The truth is that we are all racist at some level. We have all been indoctrinated in the same racist culture, so I am especially distrustful of those who claim not to have a racist bone in their body. And that is to say nothing of the distinction between racism and white supremacy.

I am disturbed that black people who regularly use the word "nigger" would complain when white people use the word "nigger." How can we expect white people not to use a word that many of us glorify in our own music, our culture and our communities? You can hardly buy a rap CD, get on a subway or walk down the street of an inner city neighborhood without hearing black people calling themselves "nigger" these days. If we don't clean up our own house, don't expect others to clean up theirs.

I could care less whether Michael Richards is a racist or not. He can save his apology for someone who needs it. I don't. He's just another guy who was on a television show where his modest abilities worked as long as he was the second banana for a more talented star. On his own, Richards has accomplished nothing.

Is his career over? I didn't know he HAD a career. If he wants to apologize he could have said, "I apologize for being a no-talent, unfunny hack whose career is colder than Dick Cheney's heart."

Mel Gibson will be sending Michael Richards a Christmas card.

Are these kinds of celebrity comments newsworthy?

Not much though I do believe it can be instructive to see someone who is suppose to be a professional lose his cool.

I do not believe this is primarily about racism though. My brother and I commented on the incident earlier today. He believes that Richards was "against the ropes" (his own lack of skill) and decided to go for the lowest common denominator which in this case happened to be speaking in the one derogatory way that he knew would get a reaction from the black men he was speaking to. If the group had been obese women he most certainly would have gone for the jugular about obesity. If they had been a group of gay men it would have been anything derogatory Richards could come up with. When someone feels as though they are losing face they can be capable of saying some of the most awful things to defend themselves. It's about lack of skill & shaky self-esteem and not much else.

Do you forgive Richards?

I don't really care enough. As he said on the Letterman show he was sorry to everyone who had to listen to him. This wasn't about race per se but rather a man becoming so vulgar and insensitive so as to offend all who were present.

Is his career completely over?

Probably. After hearing how he handled the hecklers I certainly would not waste my money on him.

First let me say that I am in absolute shock that things are getting ugly in the race debate folder.

Second, there is an obvious double standard when it comes to racism in this country. Michael Irvin says flat out on TV that the only way that Tony Romo can be so athletic is if he has some African ancestry somewhere along the line. Not a peep on the national radar. Not a topic on AD. Which is fine really, because you know what? They're just words.

Wow I didn't know about the Michael Irvin/Romo story until I read it here and then looked it up to see about it myself. Here is mention of it if you have not seen it.

Story Link

The author is pretty good at calling Irvin what he is for saying this.. Stupid.

In response to the debate questions:

1. Any type of racism by those with celebrity status is going to get exposed.

2. It's not my place to forgive him. But I don't believe his apology was sincere.

3. I think his career was over before this.

Are these kinds of celebrity comments newsworthy?

Yes, in a sad way. The problem is that our society places celebrities on a pedestal only to act shocked when they turn out to be as foolish, churlish, or ignorant as anybody else. The difference is that whatever they do is oh, so public.

Of course there are more newsworthy stories out there that have broader implications for all of us. But it's easier to criticize Michael Richards for losing control and revealing his racism than it is to process the tragedies associated with the organized violence we commonly call "the war". Michael Richards can be condemned and then forgotten. Other problems cannot be dealt with and dismissed as easily.

Do you forgive Richards?

It is not for me to forgive him. I feel sad for him because he screwed up big time and yes, he did offend a lot of people. A lot of comments that previous posters have made are absolutely true. It is part of a comic's job to push the envelope when trying to be funny. But Richards wasn't trying to be funny. He was clearly angry, and he lost control.

I saw the Letterman show where Jerry Seinfeld was trying to sell a product--a DVD--that was associated with his T.V. show. It appeared that Seinfeld was between a rock and a hard place, because in order for his product to be purchased, it was necessary for customers to see an apology from Michael Richards to show that he was sorry for his widely-publicized tirade. Richards seemed (to me) to be contrite about what he said but also a little confused by the reaction of the Letterman audience (some laughter) while he was trying to make a serious statement.

While what Richards said could only be explained by his having racially prejudiced thoughts before, I hope that the people who were offended do forgive him. It won't do him--or them--any good to continue to be angry about it.

Is his career completely over?

Probably, unless he gets religion and writes a book about it. That seems to be a way out for many people who have done something blatantly, socially unacceptable or illegal.

But then Mel Gibson is still around. It remains to be seen if his upcoming movie will get as many viewers since his run-in with the law and his drunken, anti-Semitic comments.

I hope Richards has made some good investments and that he is getting a good return on them, because he's probably not going to get another gig for a while.

I think it is an interesting side note to say that the two black poeple accosted are not accepting the apology until they get some money. Suddenly- I don't feel so bad for the poeple accosted.

Being patronizing is exactly what you were doing. And it's the same thing that patronizing and self-appoint-elitist liberals have been doing for decades.

Those poor people can't possibly help themselves against those evil republicans.... so WE have to be their saviors!

Bush calls it the "soft bigotry of low expectations". I call it the hard racism of the patronizing elite.

If you weren't referring to those people in the club, who in the world were you referring to when you talked of the "disadvantaged" people who were on the receiving end of Richard's insults??? And what is your criteria for "disadvantaged"? Is Chris Rock "disadvantaged? He's worth millions upon millions of dollars and he uses the "n word" routinely in his act. Do you look at a person's skin color and decide if they are "advantaged" or "disadvantaged"? And you don't see this as racist?

I sure as heck do.

If the "n world" is to be considered socially unacceptable, and if it's the worst thing that one can say to a so-called "black" person, then they shouldn't use that word to each other. Period.

If one witnesses "black" people showing each other such a total lack of respect, then why should ANYONE be required to give them any more respect?

Besides, the "n word" is JUST a word. It can't kill you, it can't even physically injure you. Richards intended to insult the guys who disrupted his act and he used the worst word he could think of. If they were Asians, I'm sure he would have called them "japs" or "gooks" or something equally tasteless. But they weren't.

The fact is that double standards are typically used when the subject of "race" is brought up. This is just another example.

Until those double standards are eliminated, progress is impossible. Oh, and those "disadvantaged" guys in the club revealed that they want Richards to throw a few bucks their way to ease their "pain" of being called what they probably call each OTHER daily.

Like they say.... follow the money.

I'm sorry, you are either not reading or you are misunderstanding the point I have made and repeated three times (which is forgivable, if odd) or you are deliberately misinterpreting it for the sake of bad rhetoric (which is not)

I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume the former, and I shall explain once more. Please, don't make me explain it again.

By Disadvantaged, I was referring (as explained) to disadvantaged groups in society given deliberately insulting nicknames or monikers. At the TIME blacks were first called 'Niggers' they were a disadvantaged, disenfranchised minority, undenyably. (Or do you deny this?) At the TIME the society of friends were first called 'Quakers', they were a small, persecuted minority, undeniably. (Or do you deny this?)

Chris Rock, for all his money, was not rich, nor alive, when the term 'Nigger' was first brought into wide use as a derogatory terms for Blacks.

To further the example, the term 'Queer' was appropriated in the late 1960s, early 1970's, and has become now commonplace among the gay community as a non-derogatory term. In some instances, a straight person can even use it, though one had better be careful of context. That is the same thing that is going on here. A community trying to disarm what was a verbal weapon against them.

All this is is people using a term of derogation in an attempt to neuter it amongst their own community. It has always taken a great deal of time, and as it is a recent phenomenon in the case of 'Nigger' obviously it has not hppened yet. This is not some invention of mine here, if you are trying to deny the existence of appropriation of voice, then you are denying a well documented, well regarded and pretty much unanimous body of litterature and history. IF that is what you are doing, then you had better come back with some kind of Justification or evidence as to why you feel it 'doesn't exist'.

I cn't explain it any clearer. I hop this will clear up your obvious, repeated confusion on the matter.




Why? I ask you flat out, and clearly... Why? Is it not possible for a word to have its meaning altered in a small community? Is it not possible for terms to have different connotations in different contexts?

If you call your girl 'snookums', does that mean EVERYONE at work, on the street, in restaurants, at sporting events, has the absolute right and authority to call you 'snookums' as your official name, without you being able to take ANY offense whatsoever or correct them? Or is it POSSIBLE that the word has a different meaning in different situations and contexts? I had a friend in University who called me 'mook', an older term of insult, because of a private joke between us. Yet if you called me Mook on the street, I would take serious umbrage. Am I wrong? How in the name of God does the use of a word, if acceptable in a specific context, supposedly make the same word universally accepted in ANY context? (according to you).

That doesn't even make any sense. Seriously here, is that honestly what you are trying to argue?




Be very careful with sentences like that Lordhelmet, you are walking a fine line between making a questionable, nonsensical point, and outright open bigotry. You might wish to rephrase.




So ONE of the people in the club who were insulted is greedy and immoral. How does that alter anything? You may notice from the tape the majority of the club patrons were offended, and many leaving: black AND white.