I was having a discussion tonight with one of my friends and this topic came up.

Questions to be debate:

1. Should students(high school and college) be allowed to record their teacher in all classes no matter what the subject?

2. If something controversial, racist, or against school policy is said by the teacher do you belive the student's recording can or should be used against that teacher?

1. Should students(high school and college) be allowed to record their teacher in all classes no matter what the subject?

I am not sure- tough question- with two 'what ifs"- what if it hampers the teaching enviroment? It depends on if the teacher can stop paying attention to the camera and teach? I would think it might be a real distraction! The other is- well, it is "public" school- so is there a problem with having the classroom a bit public?

Perhaps it is a better idea for the school to tape the classroom, instead of the kids- I think this may be the real solution, like with cameras in patrol cars for police officers.

2. If something controversial, racist, or against school policy is said by the teacher do you belive the students recording can be used against that teacher?

absolutely. A greater standard exists, IMHO- when the health and welfare of children is involved.

I actually like your suggestion that the class be taped by the school. Have it kept on a digital database. That way students could also review certain lectures through digital format if they wanted to review.

Doing so officially by the school might achieve 4 things:

• Better behavior by students;knowing your actions are being recorded makes it less likely you will act like a fool.
• Same goes for teachers, might also reduce the personal view preaching and keep them focused on teaching.
• Allows students to get copies to review for studying purposes and even allows for teachers to firm up their material and give better presentations.
• Allows the school to have an accurate idea of what is going on in their school classrooms.

Should the students be allowed to do so? It seems it would be an honor system type of thing. If for a legitimate purpose such as studying--sure, if an attempt to intimidate a teacher for perceived bias, I would end it after a review of the complaint if no supporting eveidence was found.

1. Should students(high school and college) be allowed to record their teacher in all classes no matter what the subject?

This probably isn't a problem on the high school level, as the curriculum is pretty homogonized. However on a college level, copyright issues can stop students from recording lectures on any kind of electronic medium. That's because some, if not most, full professors are published and teach from what they've researched and published. Lectures themselves can be copyrighted.

In this sense the subject doesn't matter. It's the material. I suppose this could be argued that not only would the lecture need to be recorded but distributed, thus hurting the professor monetarily.

A civil issue might then arrise if something allegedly controversial hits YouTube or national news and the professor takes a hit in the pocketbook as a result. This could be an issue at the high school level too.

So, those who record with intent of doing damage in mind ought to give it a good thinking.

2. If something controversial, racist, or against school policy is said by the teacher do you belive the student's recording can or should be used against that teacher?

Not necessarily. Who is making the judgement call? I personally would pass the idea across a lawyer's desk before taking action. When we're talking about potentially destroying a person's career, that person will want to fight back.

Keep in mind that full college professors make enough to hire their own lawyers. High school teachers don't make squat, so they are probably safer targets. For some reason I get the feeling that another nanny-gone-bad thing is about to happen. Huh, yet one more reason not to go into secondary education and go for the law degree instead

As far as recorded courses go, they're commercially available for students who really want to learn something. There are things called text books too. Also the Web, lots of free material out there.

1. Should students(high school and college) be allowed to record their teacher in all classes no matter what the subject?

No they shouldn't. Teachers are people too. There is not a right to record other people. This is something that should be done only with the permission of the teacher.


2. If something controversial, racist, or against school policy is said by the teacher do you believe the student's recording can or should be used against that teacher?

It certainly can be used against the teacher. I don't think it should be done this way. And if the teacher does something criminal I believe information gathered in this way is inadmissable.



Then again, of course, a teacher making racist comments or inappropriate comments can be dealt with without recording devices.

As a person I despise the idea of having all of my classes recorded and monitored for behavior issues. I might welcome it more if I worked in a school with grave security and safety issues. But it's one of those, "If you don't have anything to hide, why do you want to hide things" situations. I don't like that way of thinking and I think this goes to far in watching over citizens. But, not having anything to hide, such a device would not knock me out of the classroom and into a different career.

I had a feeling you would object to this as most teachers probably will, but I think you should address Christopher's bullet points, because they are very valid.

I did take those points into consideration. And it would be a good way to review the quality of education if somebody had a genuine desire to improve education and a system of measuring the quality of education. I have yet to see one of those.

Christopher's points are valid and this can be explored in a variety of areas in our lives to make sure we do right.

As a person I tend to be more about individual freedom and reacting to reported wrongdoing than trying to stop it on the front side. Personally I think this aligns better with our constitutional freedoms. But as I said earlier, I already teach as if a recording device is on and I would get protection from unfounded allegations that would be disprovable by whatever monitoring device was chosen. I just don't like this approach as I don't like drug testing either. (And I would seriously think about quitting if this were put in place and I have nothing to hide in this area either.)

As for the times I act below my personal standards in the classroom, I always suggest to my students if they don;t like the way something happened in a classroom that if they feel too intimidated to talk to me about it or if they feel they don;t get the resolution that they deserve, that they can and should talk to the administration.

Lest you feel I am being unfair to 8 year-olds. I teach 16-18 year-olds.

Thanks for the great topic. It's important!

1. Should students(high school and college) be allowed to record their teacher in all classes no matter what the subject?
A. Absolutely. It is public domain knowledge, unless a University/school is stupid enuf to "try to give Profs/Teachers" those "intellectual property rights", in which case I would sue both the administration and the Profs/Teachers. We paid for it (in most cases) so it's ours (in these cases)!

B. How a student takes notes, is none of their/anyone's business except the student's. How else would a blind person/student take notes anyway?

C. Many Profs/Teachers, use their lecture notes as 1-st draft of "their next book"! I maintain that this gives the class and the institution rights to that "intellectual property! Also, public funds are often used to fund this "teacher" so again, it's public paid for info. So go to A above again!

D. There is a long standing "tradition" that journal publications of authors must have the copyrights signed over to the pub, before it will be accepted/printed. These pubs are then used for tenure, status decisions. (This is a topic of a great letter from the Provost of the University of New Mexico, and following conference on such, by the University of New Mexico.) These practices all are leads to abuse by "old boy groups working the system", in spite of what the spinners say about fair review, fair grants, etc.! They are anonamous for G's sake! How do we know! And, I say it is to be prohibited/discouraged, cuz it is at best a "copyright avoiding rewrite" of publicly paid for reports in way too many cases. So, go to A above again.

2. If something controversial, racist, or against school policy is said by the teacher do you belive the student's recording can or should be used against that teacher?
Any and all, recollections, notes, recordings, etc., as in above, is useable as evidence for any crime/impropriety investigation, always!

1. Should students(high school and college) be allowed to record their teacher in all classes no matter what the subject?
Yes.

2. If something controversial, racist, or against school policy is said by the teacher do you believe the student's recording can or should be used against that teacher?
Yes. A teacher is put in a position of authority and a position of trust. They should not be allowed to abuse that trust and have it be their word against the student's. See this recent case where a teacher lied about what was said in their classroom until recordings were produced.

I am sorry Eeyore but from the tone of your post it seems you are more concerned with the teacher and not the students. Aren't the students the ones we need to be looking out for. It seems to me if a school were monitoring the classrooms it would be more benificial for the sake of the students than what some claim to be inhibiting individual freedom of the teacher.

[quote name='Sleeper' date='Nov 25 2006, 12:05 PM' post='201742']

[/quote]

I am sorry Eeyore but from the tone of your post it seems you are more concerned with the teacher and not the students. Aren't the students the ones we need to be looking out for. It seems to me if a school were monitoring the classrooms it would be more benificial for the sake of the students than what some claim to be inhibiting individual freedom of the teacher.
[/quote]

Sleeper- like I said- I am of two minds on this- but I can see Eyore's side- for some reason- teachers are supposed to be in it "for the kids"- they are not supposed to, seemingly, have the same rights as other citizens in society, and, for some odd reason, asking for the same amount of money any other 4 year degreed professional earns seems to be a betrayal "to the kids and the community"- really, in this country, we beat up on the teachers WAY too much, with FAR too little responsibility towards the children by the parents. After volunteering in the classroom several times this last year- I have to say- 99.99999999% of complaints against teachers and the school system by parents are totally bogus and I have far less respect for parents these days.

I feel the VERY BEST solution to this "problem"- is volunteering in your children's school. If every single parent volunteered once or twice a month- we would have no need for cameras. The parent is there helping the teacher- what better way to monitor hte teacher and students than parent volunteers? This way- no one's privacy is encroached upon, and there aren't so many "incidents" between students and parents and teachers.

I feel the whole need for this topic is a reflection of our societie's parents abdicating THIER responsibility for educating thier child to the school- be it private or public.

That being said- Eyore makes one good point again- will the school systems in the US, considering our constant abuse towards them as a society, be able to retain and recruit good teachers? At some point, we are going to have a major shortage of quality professionals wanting to go into this field. I think we are probably already there in much of the country- I mean, at some point- good, quality poeple that think of this as a proffession are going to say "why bother- no one appreciates me, they spy on us, abuse us when we want a living wage compared to other professionals, and make us babysit thier kids"- a very valid point.

How confrontational do we want to make this situation with our teachers?

Concerning high schools:

There are already plenty of controls over high school curriculum because of standardized testing. While there might be benefit in recording lectures for review purposes, I object to giving students a potential weapon to use against teachers. With baby boomer teachers retiring, recruitment of replacements is in some areas difficult. Why would bright young college age people enter teaching? Why to wind the ball tighter? Will such restrictive policy only make replacing retiring teachers more difficult and retaining replacements a greater problem?

http://www.nea.org/teachershortage/index.html

Teachers are by nature public servants, but not public slaves.

Concerning colleges:

There is a tradition of academic freedom in this country. I can see this turning into a complete academic witch hunt, whether or not the professor is coming from the right or the left. With the exception of copyright laws, I have no problem with taping lectures for review purposes.



Enough to make people think twice about becoming teachers. Considering some of the drivel on Scarborough Country for the last couple of years, I don't think the right would stop at anything. Now that they've lost both houses of Congress, I guess academia is high on the hit list. Power moves to where it thinks there is a vacuum.

BoF, this made me think of my college decision to abandon the idea of teaching high school English. When I saw what teachers made, I laughed. I could make better money in a warehouse with a high school education! Surely I could do better with nearly four years of college, and I did in the computer field, which was just starting to take off in 1975 and was wide open to anyone who could do the work.

Now If I was going into debt to the tune of 20-30 grand for the undergraduate these days, I'd first off do pre-law, as that leads to lawschool, and that leads to passing the bar, and that leads to being able to specialize in something like insurance cases, bankruptcy, divorce, and a slew of other things, perhaps even something in copyright law. Whatever, I'd need to make enough money to pay off my debt. Teaching doesn't do this.

CR has a very good point -- instead of constantly complaining about teachers, how about lending a hand? Get out of the little red wagon and push, [Little Johnny's expletives have been removed from this old joke].

It seems to me that compensation is an entirely separate issue.

It seems to me that having a record would also serve to protect teachers from false accusations. I don't know about having schools make their own recordings, just because the money that would cost could probably be better spent on supplies or salaries.

Compensation per se is not the issue. Yet when you add compensation to teaching to the test and this latest "big brother's watching you" idea, then it doesn't make teaching an attractive profession.

Since most college professors are compensated quite adequately this really doesn't have much to do with them, but I agree that teachers funded by state and local governments need much better pay.

But the impression I am getting regarding this issue is when it comes down to it teachers are more worried about being caught on tape doing something wrong rather than the tremendous good this could afford the students.

You are welcome to your impression, Sleeper.

Who is to determine whether something a teacher is doing something "wrong" - big brother? One of the elements that I think is needed in classrooms is a certain amount of a relaxed, comfortable feeling. Perhap's an element of trust between teacher and stujdents, if you will. This would only make teachers more defensive, perhaps overly cautious. You might also consider the potential bad, like a deterioration in classroom atmosphere, that could come from this.

My impression is that this is a right-wing attempt to gain power. Unfortunately, the authoritarian goblins did not all die during the last election.

The example I gave of a teacher lying about harassing students was a right-wing teacher. The wingnuts are the ones who have something to lose here- they are the ones who can't stand to have their ideas openly discussed so they run stealth candidates for school board positions.
It's not about politics, it's about openness.

Amazing. I never brought politics into this you did... I knew you would blame this on some right wing assertion. But what really brought up this discussion with my friend was when I was in 6th grade we had a homeroom teacher who made racist comments quite often but we could never prove it because taping of the class was not allowed and when a classroom monitor came to the class he was on good behavior. I don't know if he is still teaching today but if there had been cameras in his class do you think those racist remarks would have been made?

Oh, so you are talking about an isolated incident from 20 years ago. You might ask yourself if the benefits for such electronic eavesdropping is worth what we could risk. I can see, as my earlier post indicated, this leading to witch hunts from both the right or left. Do you not agree that the potential for abuse is enormous.



How strange you should mention "openness." This would do more to detroy openness in the classroom than anything I can think of.

Again Grendel72 and Sleeper, this is from my original post, which both of youi conveniently overlooked.

Teachers already have classroom observation, and it's a lot more disruptive to have some guy in a suit sitting in on a class than having a recorder. I have to think 90% of the problems that could be caught aren't even of anything remotely resembling a political nature- I know when I was in school those of us who wound up in a class taught by a coach got to see some generally piggish behavior that wasn't political.
And certainly students would be on the record when they are disruptive as well.

I don't think making such recordings is an effective use of education funds, but it seems ridiculous to me in a case like the one I linked to to even consider punishing the student for recording evidence to back them up.

If you will notice, emphasis changed during the 2nd and 3rd post on this thread. At that point it was suggested that schools themselves do the taping and keep records in an electronic database. At that point were talking about the school - “big brother” doing the taping.

What I’m attempting to point out is that our tradition of academic freedom is more important than some knee-jerk “solution” to isolated incidents.

But then you said this little gem



I did not bring politics into this you did and they don't belong here. They are many instances, like Grendel said that have nothing to do with politics. Aside from teachers it could also catch students who harass other students or teachers as well. This would be tremendous towards stopping a lot of the bad behavior in students as well.

Oh, but politics do belong in a thred like this.

Sleeper, can you say with a straight face the politics wouldn't enter into the equation sooner or later?

In your case it was racism, in the one Grendel linked it was religion, both political in natuire. With a large class of student witnesses, it shouldn't have been necessary to get a recording - in either case.

Again both of you risk throwing out the baby with the bath.

Sure, but you came out and said this would boil down to a right wing attempt to gain power.

So you think this would be exclusively used by ring wingers to gain power? Kinda short sighted to look at a remote possible outcome and ignore all of the potential good this can bring.

And you are throwing the other baby out with the bath water by blindly opposing this.

Again, I said either right or left in my first post. I do believe, however, that the right would be more prone to abuse this tool than the left.



Actually, I don't see much potential good, but are we talking about something national, state or local as a vehicle for all this "supposed" good?




However much opposition I may have, it is not blind. I taught in the public schools for 34 years. That does give me some first hand experience on how things work.

Seems like the ones opposed here are teachers.. Interesting...

I am also curious what you thought about Christopher's points on the first page of the thread.

I am not a teacher. I am a retired teacher. That kind of removes me by five years from self-interest.

I did work on the grievance committee for one of the teacher unions in Fort Worth. That's the group that defends the due process rights of school employees accused of some violation of school board policy. I rmember several teachers being disciplined (the union didn't always win its cases) for using racial epithets and another for an incident similar to the one Grendel presented in his link. I can't remember a single incident where a recording was necessary for administration to impose discipline.

Maybe teachers or retired teachers are opposed because we know how the system works better than people from outside.

Sleeper it seems to me that you are bringing in a bias against teachers into this thread. We all can hide behind the political correct and winning phrase, "do it for the kids." I like to think that I do it. I went to college and worked part time jobs for years from 1984 to 1999 including jobs at the four year level in education. If it were purely about self-interest for me it would be about the money.

I am also thinking about the students. I don;t think this is fair to them as Americans either. And I think this sends the wrong kind of message out. But I am socially more libertarian than most. (Apparently)

I have twice stated that I could live with these incursions into my privacy, but this incursion would be into my privacy as a teacher because I am a teacher. I would be no more in favor of these recordings as a student (if we are looking at behavior and security). Who do you think would be more likely to say something that could bring about legal issues in a classroom, a 16 year-old or a fifty year-old?

Other posters have gone on about the lack of intellectual property rights teachers deserve, or that teachers should have no control about how students take notes. This will be a welcome thought for one of my classes that will be subjected to note checks on a routine basis for the rest of the year. I, as their teacher, have decided that they need to be supervised more in their education. It's a judgement call.

If I were in the public school system I would likely be much more vigilantly opposed to such a monitoring system. This is because public schools tend to have a horrible administrative political culture that could leave this system open to abuse.



I wonder where you get this impression from this thread? Has an educator said that they routinely do things in the classroom that they would get in trouble for? I'm no angel, but teaching inspires me on a daily basis to ebe a better person because the potatoes have eyes and the corn have ears. I am a daily role model and my students watch and listen closely. I have nothing to fear from these devices, but I don;t like the idea of them. I also think this type of record could lead to litigation between students. It is a value neutral tool.

Of Christopher's comments the one I liked best was the ability to do more teacher assessment. But I still feel that there is not much positive momentum in this area of science. But, as a rule, far too little observation of teachers occurs.

As for tremendous good, I don't see it. I think the vast majority of the wrongdoing caught on tape will be that of the students and that a few teachers would rightfully be removed from the classroom, but the vilest of those who debase the profession would probably find ways to be sexual predators or tape or camera.




Again, it looks like you are looking to confirm something here. What I'm not yet reading is a chorus of students who think this is a great idea.

I would not be against cameras in a classroom at all personally. Teachers like everyone else and of course including students are open to being human, and in a social setting sometimes this human behavior can cause issues. Cameras don’t like, unless the video or data is somehow corrupted, by human behavior or machine failure. This is why I support camera observation in general. In cities where cameras are deployed as a crime deterrent they do far better jobs of such then an armed populous or police force ever managed. I actually support the spread of such overall over other current means simply because cameras do happen to be honest outside of human behavior, so the key on that would be reducing or getting rid of ways to corrupt such, which I don’t think would be to hard overall but i will skip my thoughts on that

Camera technology also does not have to be intrusive anymore, so you would not have to allow it to be a prominent figure in the environment unless you wanted it to be. Also in a classroom audio would be an open option, I would support that also.

basically video audio options are more accurate methods of observing what occurred then by going from human memory or human testimonials of incidents or actions. It also reduces a great deal of corruption that can be brought on. I could only imagine what our courts would turn out for verdicts if such was available for every case it had to rule on, for the jury, judge and lawyers.

I don’t support a big brother atmosphere though. And without the ability to fully rid corruption out of such a system I fear that’s what it would become, simply because of issues pertaining to what could be called corruption. I do only however support it for environments in which such would be beneficial again to everyone involved, such as why police officers have to have such attached to there cruisers.

Where you see bias against teachers in my view, I see defensiveness in your views as a teacher.

I didn't say these should be monitored all the time by some panel, but should be there when a student or teacher wants to see a certain lecture or event that may have happened in class. If the vast majority of violations come from students all the better, you would be removing a bad element from the classroom that hinders the education of the other students. How can this not be a good thing?

I am quite active in my sons education(he is in 1st grade), and have talked with many other parents about this idea and they are all in agreement. We as parents would like to see what goes on in a daily class without having to be there. I know if I was in the classroom my child would behave differently, but this way I could see his behavior as he is normally in class. The same goes for teachers. I remember in one of my classes we had a teacher/coach who used to make comments about one of the girls in the class. Let's just say the comments would earn me a strike. But he was never challenged because of the intimidation factor. Cameras aren't intimidated at all.

And where you see defensiveness from teachers, I see a preconceived notion that teachers are more part of the problem than the solution.

Sometimes repetition creates perception, which creates reality.

I don't like having people watchign and listening in on my life. I just don't like it. I would not like is at a student nor as a teacher. But, once again, were such a system introduced into my classroom I would not leave the profession and I would not fight it. That does not mean that I would have to like it, and it does not mean I or my school would get much use out of the system and perhaps it would divert scarce educational resources from the classroom.

You see a win-win situation for parents, children, educators, and administrators. I just see another gadget that likely would not have much positive impact.

As for your anecdote, I still would say that speaking up and reporting activity is very effective. If your 2nd grader comes home with allegations of racism, do you not think a phone tree could get several eyewitness accounts of the activity. A camera in itself may not be intimidated, but someone would have to make the report still.

1. Should students (high school and college) be allowed to record their teacher in all classes no matter what the subject?

I feel that if the teachers give their permission, yes. But realistically, who among us never says something that could be misconstrued if it were heard out of context? The news reports are filled with statements that famous people shouldn't have said and that have real repercussions.

2. If something controversial, racist, or against school policy is said by the teacher do you believe the student's recording can or should be used against that teacher?

A teacher should be able to express him or herself, within reason, without being fearful. If a teacher is saying something criminal, that's a different story. A student who is old enough to express an objection should approach a teacher should he or she say something controversial, racist or against school policy. If the teacher persists, then it is possibly time to take other actions, such as going to the administrator, BEFORE recording the thing in question.

I think that invasions of privacy are far too frequent in our current society. There should be an expectation that not every word we say is necessarily going to be scrutinized and then publicized, especially if there is a high probability that it is going to be misconstrued.

I do not know how large your classroom is but you already have that many people watching and listening.



What makes me suspicious is a notion to dismiss something without even the hint of trying it to see if it works. It's a good thing many inventors and researchers didn't take this approach.



But in a 9th grade classroom where a student knows cameras are in place only has to tell an administrator. Just look at the tape. And the student would not have to involve themselves at that point any longer.

See now your being intentionally abrasive, disingenuous, and/or obtuse. I have previously made the point quite clearly that we already have plenty of eyes and ears in a classroom that belong there.

And for the concept that I have dismissed something without of a hint of trying it to see if it works and that furthermore I am holding back progress and science is pretty laughable. I think I have made it pretty clear that I have considered this idea, that I don't have the power to dismiss it but it does nothing to improve my life as a teacher. And, just so I can get this out before we go another round about how sad it is that I don't consider the needs of my students, well that is something that I call teaching. I consider their needs, draw up lesson plans, and find the materials and the tools that I think best suit their needs. My budget will not allow for a security camera system, take that up with administration. As for the poor researchers and inventors, some I please by using their materials and technologies, others probably anonymously curse me for not helping advance their $$$$ situation by using their product. Many, many ideas are left on the shelf without my students getting any hint of trying to see if it works.

I don't like the concept and you snipe at me for it and then call me defensive.
You're just trying to have fun at my expense at this point.

See you in the next thread.

Nice!! Thanks for accusing me of lying, being rude, or just not caring to see your side... I guess the tactic in debating when you can't come up with research to back up your claim, appeal to emotion (Check).

Here are some of my and Christopher's reasons for having classrooms monitored by audio and visual means:

1. Hold students and teacher accountable for behavior. The camera doesn't lie and there won't be a he said she said conflict.
2. Evidence of any crimes, if they ever took place in said classroom.
3. Review of class lectures for both student and teacher.
4. Allow parents to see how their child is behaving in class. Some parents would probably be shocked.

I don't want some watchdog group reviewing these recordings on a daily basis. All I am saying is that they should be there as a tool, what is wrong with that?


*As an aside*

The comparison to inventors and researchers was an illustration, I figured you would understand that and not try to twist my words... oh well..

What it means is why don't you give the idea a reasonable chance before shooting it down.

Jeez, I guess I shouldn't mention my idea for giving teachers yearly exams to test their knowledge of the subjects they teach...

Let me get this straight. Is there a local, state or national move to implement this type taping program or is this just your idea? Do you know how much such a program would cost? What taxes would you raise or other programs would you cut to pay for your jaunt into educational voyeurism? Just who would be allowed to watch the tapes? Would they be public record? If law sujits were filed over the matter, how much in legal fees do you reckon school districts might have to dig up?

If you are really serious about all this Sleeper, I would suggest that you either run for school board in your local district or submit a program for the board's consideration. Your idea will never become reality nationwide, but you might have some success from a bottom up vs. a top down appoach. Either way, I hope you fail miserably if you try. If such a proposal came up in Fort Worth, I would sign up to give the idea a big thumbs-down.



In Texas college seniors must pass an exit test before entering the classroom for the first time. The test deals with both subject matter and methodology. If someone teaches history, it is doubtful they would forget that much over the summer.

Annual testing is really is an extreme idea. Uh, make that an extremely bad idea that wastes both time and money.



http://www.utexas.edu/student/registrar/ca...9/ch4/ch4k.html



You might as well forget it, Eeyore. The "self-appointed experts" in education - those who never spent a day in a classroom, will never understand or appreciate the time you spend - much of it off the clock - performing the things necessary to teach a lesson. That includes Bush crony, Margaret Spellings.

In the sixth grade I was openly humiliated by a teacher because I professed that I thought evolution was true. The teacher also needed to take this far enough to try to get the class in on it, I would also like to point out that more then one teacher was present while this was occurring. You know, being I was a young child, this rather painful moment I never really made much of a fuss about, I was more concerned with video games and sports so what have you. I would like to think that such an issue is a of course small event which does not occur all to often but hey, I cant say I have been in every classroom in America over the history of classroom based education.

I can also attest to have witnessing teachers being harassed to the point of crying because some weird frenzy took over class.

Basically my point being is I cant see the harm having audio visual observation equipment in classrooms would bring, save protecting everyone involved and of course most importantly expressing the truth of day to day activities in that class with such for any concerned parties.

Not everyone here is a teacher, but none the less most all of us did have to attend such for years on end, and in my case with college will continue to be doing such.

How much would it cost, I have no idea, I am sure such a question would be scalar in accordance with what equipment you wanted to use. Fiber optic Pen cameras and lasers for the audio would probably cost a pretty penny, some black and white cameras with analog audio probably not as much.

Then again for lots of public places I support the use of camera technology. From what I know of it most of the uses of such in public areas have produced nothing but positive benefits for everyone involved. Heck I wish our dear politicians had to wear such 24/7 while in office, even while sleeping, but then again I am a bit paranoid

Gordo,

I think most of us have had a similar bad experience.

In the 7th grade (1955) my reading teacher brought a King James Bible into the classroom. This was about six years before Madalyn Murray [O'Hair] filed her first case involving such practices in schools. The lesson plan for the day was to read out loud from the King James Bible.

My family didn't attend church. I had never read out loud from the KJV. When my turn came, I stuttered, stammered and made a complete fool of myself. The teacherglared down his noble honker atg me and in his most "compassionate" Christian voice said, "I'd hate to admit that I couldn't read out loud from the Bible any better than that."

I was shattered and for years didn't like reading anything in public.

That evening I went home and told my father about the indecent. My father was a practical man who gave me some practical advice - "forget the damned Bible and go play baseball."

As distasteful as this incident was, I don't think it warrants the time, expense of taping. Again I will argue that such taping would have the potential of destroying classroom atmosphere. Classroom atmosphere is part of the Teacher evaluation instrument in Texas - the better the atmosphere the better the teacher scores. Such invasiveness would hinder bonding between teacher and students. Bonding is especially important when kids with special needs are involved.

I see this whole idea as a bad way of dealing with the absurd fear/anger that grips our society - a fear of and anger about almost everything, including teachers - and an attempt to address those fears through authoritarian, angry mechanisms.

Just like how you view it as an angry tool of authoritarian creation how can you know how every teacher or student feels about any particular incident, I don’t view it as such a tool. Far be it from me, but I think if it were not for the discovery and push for say evolution that science may to this date still be primitive and basically a tool for theology, why again I feel that such a push to destroy it appears at even high level areas of our political system here in the states.

Back to the topic. I am not for the idea of destroying some teacher student atmosphere. I have had teachers I like and I know it does aid the environment for a student or students. The point I am trying to make is that such is a public setting, and giving human behavior its not always a perfect activity in authoritarian terms. The reality posed is simply this, cameras record what they are pointing at, people make the various decisions on that, that is all. With cameras in place, any action a student, or students commit, or teachers for that matter could be then supplied if needed in the judgment of some negative or even positive situation. It could provide for the means to escape if you will the various shortcomings or possible corruptions that exist in the light of not being able to have witnessed that actions but instead just have to use a word of mouth testimonial, which is faulty ultimately for various reasons.

Any system is open to corruption, I am for only in a basic sense the reduction in this, nothing more. I see video/audio tools as a positive thing if you will for such. Now I know that such equipment is open to corruption in itself, but with a simple layered system really nothing short of destruction of such material would allow for corruption in it to occur overall.

Cameras to me can embody the seeing is believing idea, and I can only imagine what the last twenty years of criminal prosecution would have been like if such was available in every instance, it truly is a powerful tool to combat public based systems corruption, for everyone involved. Right now really forensic science is being used in already prosecuted cases showing how open to error our criminal prosecution system is, how many innocent people are jailed because the truth was lost to a stinky ocean of manure.

I don't think I could have put it any better Gordo.

BoF you are acting as if these cameras will be sitting on a tripod in the middle of a classroom and the teacher will have a microphone in their face all the time. These should be innocuous recording devices that most people upon entering the class would never even know were there unless told about.

1. Sure, why not?

2. Sure, why not?

I have the right (or so I've been told) of sitting in any of my kid's classes (public high school) anytime I want.

The teachers are on the taxpayer's dime and I don't mind them being held accountable. I think in many cases, recordings would show the top notch work of a competent educator.

In some cases, they would be unlistenable and boring.

But, if the showed gross neglect or incompetence don't you think the school administration should know of this?

So suppose a school district actually does this, has anyone considered the costs involved? It's not just the equipment but the installation and maintenance. It's not just the filming, digital or mylar, it's the archival. A database of video has been mentioned. Anybody have any idea what size of data center would need to be built to support such a database? Consider the size of YouTube, then multiply by a factor of at least 100 for a metropolitan school district.

We're talking say 200-500 hours of high-quality video archival per day. If we figure on the low end of say 5 MB per minute for a single camera, that comes to (getting my trusty TI out) 300 MB per hour, or 60 GB to 150 GB per day, if only one camera is used per classroom. Realistically, at least 4 cameras should be used to capture the whole classroom reality, so let's say 600 GB per day, 3 TB per week, and 108 TB per average school year. Throw summer sessions in there, and we're likely looking at 150 TB per school year.

In the metropolitan area of Colorado Springs, there are several school districts for a population of between 300,000 and 400,000 residents. Imagine the overhead that Denver and the surrounding areas would incur. Then imagine this going national.

Then think of this: All the data needs backing up. It needs buildings to house it. It needs personnel to support it, and these people don't come cheap (unlike school teachers).

I don't think this idea is workable in any fashion. It's just a big black hole extra cost center in public education, which is underfunded the way it is.

But, since some seem convinced of the benefits to students, how about some real evidence that:

1) This has been tried, and

2) That it works.

Fort Worth Independent School District, not to mention other districts in Tarrant County, has over 100 facilities. Imagine the cost of archiving.

http://www.ftworth.isd.tenet.edu/html/about_us.html



I asked Sleeper some of these same questions, and about all that’s been presented is a lot of theoretical moralizing. How about some answers from you, Sleeper?



Well in that case, why don't you avail yourself of the opportunity to visit. You could take a whole day and visit all of your kid's classes. This, of course, requires a little more effort than viewing a video or listening to an audio recording.

BTW: A few years ago, the FWISD board of education decided to put computer hook-ups with internet service in all classesrooms. This was an expensive project that took about five years. I can only guess the expense of upgrading computer equipment and software - that is, if the computers are not now obsolete.

I am actually getting with about 12 other parents here in the Pinellas Country area in Florida and we are going to work on getting this into local schools here. I don't know how long it will take, it is just now in the works.

Mini marts run camera systems all the time. They also have not gone bankrupt for such. Another avenue is that better technology may be able to be offered into the schools for the introduction of such. Also, not sure of course, but I think it would greatly reduce the overhead on management of issues, and open up in greater detail ways to improve public school methods simply because a teacher could download and view other forms of education or student teacher relations.