I believe this topic needs to be brought up.

Wheenever a conversation is brought up about Israel there seems to be an automatic assumption that people against Israel are either antisemitic or racist.

I believe

A: Arabs are semitic people, therefore one can't be anti-semitic simply for being against a country that is predominately caucasions in the midst of the middle-east.

B: That the belief in Judaism is what makes one a Jew, and that there is no Jewish race, since we all know that Jews come in all colors, ethnicities, and from multiple nationalities.


Questions of Debate

Should Jews be classified as a race of people?

Can one be against Israel, whether that be creation or existence, without having any problems with Jews as a group of people?

Should Jews be classified as a race of people?
I think so, mostly because they are. Judaism is a religion, but it's an ethnic group too. Jews are basically comprised of two ethnic groups, Sephardic Jews and Ashkenazi Jews. Most people who are in the Jewish ethnic group practice the Jewish religion, but some don't, but their parents and ancestors are still part of the ethnic group of Jews. A Jewish person could convert to any religion but their ethnicity would stay the same. A person who is ethnically Swedish could convert to Judaism and they'd be considered a Jew but their ethnicity would still Swedish. I don't really understand how someone could argue Jews aren't an ethnic group. It's a little tricky classification wise but there is without a doubt a genetically identifiable group of people whose ancestors resided around Israel, didn't intermarry very much with local populations and have retained a Jewish cultural tradition.

Can one be against Israel, whether that be creation or existence, without having any problems with Jews as a group of people?
Yes. A lot of Jewish people disagree with Israeli policies and they clearly aren't anti-semitic. Wanting Israel not to exist doesn't make you necessarily anti-semitic. I personally think it makes you unrealistic, but it doesn't mean that the person hates Jews. But at the same time I would bet all anti-semties would like to see Israel destroyed. There is probably a correlation between wanting to see the state of Israel destroyed and not liking one of the ethnic groups that inhabit Israel but it's certainly not 100%.

Should Jews be classified as a race of people?

That is a tough one- I have struggled with this a bit- because, as we know, all poeple are related to every other person on the planet if you go back 2000 years- we get into the mathematics of what a distinct ethnicity is at some point- and other wierd situtations where you get recent, new ethnic groups apparently- like the Palestenians- who basically came about, it seems, about the same time Israel was granted nation status for the minority living there at the time- the Jews.

I would say yes and no- how do we tell and what is the definition these days? I believe the right of return is if your mother was Jewish, you have a right to return and gain citizenship in Israel, correct?

Can one be against Israel, whether that be creation or existence, without having any problems with Jews as a group of people?

Absolutely- I think, as others, that the ship has already sailed in regards to Israel being a nation, so seeing it NOT be a nation would probably make for some genocide and ethnic cleansing- and I am against that, no matter who is doing the cleansing. - So I would rather Isreal forced to be a homeland for anyone that wants to be part of it with some traditional claim to the area, make the sacred sites themselves internationally administered, and see right of return for all Palestenian refugees and those deported after 1948, with ability to reclaim the houses that they left, or compensation based on the values at todays prices and values for those areas, and the ability to buy equal land elsewhere in the region, unrestricted and protected against violence from nieghbors.

Should Jews be classified as a race of people?

Can one be against Israel, whether that be creation or existence, without having any problems with Jews as a group of people?
Respectfully, the debate questions are offensive to me and I won't discuss them.

Just for perspective:

I believe:

A: Berbers, whites, blacks, arabs and jews are all Africans

B: It seems that the belief in "African Americans" is all it takes to make one an "African American," since obviously many peoples come from Africa to America.

Since African Americans don't exist as a race, can one be against "African America" and all of its constructs (Affirmative Action, racial identifies, tupac shakur, etc.) without being a racist?

Race as it stands is an artificial construct that exists because we make it so. Biologically speaking, race simply does not exist. In more fine terms, in terms of human genetic make up or other aspects of our biology, nothing really exists that can allow for a hard science validation of different human races. The history of this term race though of course does have validity as it is supported by human behavior, be it on a level of nature or nurture I don’t know overall. I don’t particularly accept it though overall. I know there is lots of variation in humans, from how one person looks to another to what one person thinks to another. Now faith is not genetic, its something a person by choice for the most part makes and continues to make day to day in his or her life. Being born with certain genetics, like say that make you "black" or have "blonde" hair is not something a person makes a choice to have, I mean with the advent of say hair dyes and dental surgeries and what not, you can change these things, but in basis I think there is a different between what nature gives you, and then what decisions you make.

When I think of the term African American in modern political terms, I do not think of Europeans or what not that moved to Africa, though I guess it does qualify. More or less it refers to people that have "black" skin. That person cannot change that really, though at some point I am sure it will be a parental option, i have no idea though. For me, I have no religion, I am a secular humanist, agnostic, and most of all support science the most of all human institutions. I can though if I want decide to become Jewish, or a Christian, or a catholic, or a Muslim in regards to human institutions. I cant however change the fact I am white, or other aspects of my chemical make up, such things don’t happen to be in my hands.

So to me, in that basis a difference does happen to exist. Being the Jewish faith had to be created at some point, I really doubt the people that made it were the product of its creation, or a faith based abiotic explosion of human life because of that faith. So naturally speaking to me, no, Jewish faith is that, and its not genetic. If that was true, then I guess you can say that for anything overall, but the reality of it of course is race is something we created and support with actions, again either by nature or nurture and the relation of the two producing such I don’t know.

People existed far before any of the modern institutions or perceptions of today came to be, and I hope far after such leaves, though I cant be sure. People made these institutions, be it political schemes, forms of animism, or the scientific method, they did not make the people.

TO the other topic, no I do not support everything Israel does, I don’t see however that can lead you to being a racist as we take it though. If I think that the creation of Israel has done more harm to Jewish people in general and created more tension in the world, I should not have to be considered a racist. I mean to look at things in that light, you cant be against anything any group does, for simply put it would then mean you are a racist. To the end matter, if the creation of Israel lead to millions of people of different “races” dying from nuclear warfare, was it such a good idea? Maybe if you support the more brutal aspects of what natural selection could mean and the sentence stupid should hurt, personally I don’t buy into that and I think people just don’t happen to use the brain as much as it should be.

Should Jews be classified as a race of people?
As much as any group can be. While Judaism is a religious faith anyone can belong to, it is also used to describe an ethnic group- an ethnic group that has faced much persecution whether they are of the faith or not.

Can one be against Israel, whether that be creation or existence, without having any problems with Jews as a group of people?
Of course. Most Jewish people I know, whether of the faith or not, have disagreed with the actions of Israel at times. As mentioned previously, I have Jewish friends who have been called anti-semites for disagreeing with neo-conservatism. I'm sure there are a lot of others, since by and large American Jews are liberal.
There's nothing quite like having right-wingers who turn a blind eye to Conservative anti-semitism smearing American Jews as anti-semitic.

A. First off anti-Semitism does not have anything to do with all Semites. It is a specific hatred of Jews and Jews only. Regardless of the term Semite. As for being against a specific country well I find that so very hard to understand. Are you against certain policies? Or because it is a 'Jewish State'? Since 20% of the country is not Jewish and about 70% of the Jewish population is considered secular. Meaning that they are about as religious as any non-church going American. Then why are you against them would be my question.

By the way droop Israel is not predominately caucasian. They are about 70% Sephardic or North African. You could not tell them apart from their Arab neighbors.

B. Yes the belief in Judaism does make one a Jew, but the claim there is no Jewish race is false. Sorry to tell you but science does not agree.

The Cohanim share certain common genetic markers that the rest of the world or even other Jews do not. Now those people may have oriental features, be the darkest African or blond haired blue-eyed Europeans. But they have a set of common genetic markers that the rest of the world does not have. Race does not have to be outwardly visible to be a fact.

Second there happen to be several Jewish genetic disorders. These disorders are found among the rest of the world but hit the Jewish community especially hard. Chicago Jewish Genetic Disorders is a good place to start. A these affect Ashkenazi as well as the Sephardi Jews and outwardly they appear to have no common race.

So though belief in Judaism is the common point there is also a prevalent underlying genetic issue as well. To state that there is no 'Jewish race' has been disproved by science.

Now to the questions at hand.

Should Jews be classified as a race of people?
Certainly a large portion of them do share common genetic markers, which would make them a race. Regardless of outwardly features, skin color, etc. Yes there is certain scientific proof that they are one people.

Can one be against Israel, whether that be creation or existence, without having any problems with Jews as a group of people?
I will defer to older wiser people than I and use their wisdom. No to be against either the creation or existence of Israel is anti-Semitism pure and simple. To be against specific policies is not.

But that would be like if said 'I hate Japan'. The next question would have to be why? What did Japan do? Do you hate the actions of the Japanese people, or the government?

So to claim to hate the existence of a country is racism regardless of the country. You could apply Mr. Sharansky's 3-D test to any race or religion and it the result is that you hate a particular group based on those criteria you would a bigot.

If you are fanatically opposed to or loathe the nation of Israel, then one can safely assume there is a thread of antisemetism in that opinion, as there is in 90% (not all, but most) of those who share that opinion.

However, my real problem is with the other side of the coin. The accusation of 'anti-semetism' seems to be thrown out from time to time against those who would go so far as to criticise the specific actions of Israel, as though it is somehow immune to normal national criticism of questionable actions.

On this board, many moons ago, I made a post during the last intefada in which I stated that it has reached a point that the blame is so evenly balanced between Israel and the Palestinians as to be impossible to take sides, if not 50%-50%, then it is at best 55%-45% one way or the other. Nobody is blameless anymore.

Certainly an opinion one can take issue with, and I expected as much, but I did not expect to be accused of anti-Semetism by a poster on this board for having assigned ANY blame to Israel.


So there is a fine line here. One cannot oppose the existence of an entiure state (or at leats most cannot) without at least a hint of anti-semetism. However, this last is a term that gets thrown about too often by some whenever the issue of Israel, on any issue, comes up for debate.

Loreng- where do you get the 70% Sephardic Jewish population in Israel? I have looked at several sites- both pro-jewish and anti-jewish, most claim that the Ashkenazi population is the larger population, and by far the largest world wide- which, unless someone tells you they are Jewish- you can't tell outwardly many times- however- Loreng is right- the Ashkenazi also suffer from some genetic disorders that are unique to the Jewish population.

I do know one thing though- in Russia- were true anti-semitism is VERY prevelant (and I am NOT talking about a debate over Israel here- we are talking Hitler "final solution" types here)- it seems Russians can pick out a Jewish person, with the slightest lineage, very well. They can also tell the difference between different races of white poeple, and to me, all white poeple look alike -

Stalin was truly anti-semitic, and killed 80% of my in-laws family,

So, anti-semitism ABSOLUTELY exists, but! It also lessons the belief that Jews are persecuted for thier race or religion when just questioning the validity of the claim of Israel by poeple that didn't live there prior to 1948, and all the recent (in the last 100 years) Migration (Aliyahs, several of them) of Jews into that area, and the displacement of the majority- which, is a type of ethnic cleansing as well, and to not recognize that is a lie, and does a disservice to those Jews that have been a victim of that themselves.

Persecution of a poeple does not give that poeple carte' blanche' to persecute and do the same thing to another poeple.

I use the only reliable source of any meaningful statistics on Israel, the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics. I don't know if they have the data in English but you can go look on their website Central Bureau of Statistics, but the Hebrew data shows 70% of the Jewish population to be Sephardic. Has been for a long time too. And the Sephardi suffer several of the same genetic disorders as the Ashkenazi though not as high a percentage. Certainly much higher than the general population.

As for Russia, well the dress of the Jews is what gives them away for the most part.

But your continual claims of ethnic cleansing by Jews is a lie of Goebbels size dimensions. It did not happen and all of the reliable sources from the diplomatic personnel to the newspaper, heck even the Arab themselves state the opposite. Nor did many of them own the land, that too is a fact backed up by the British government (hardly a pro-Israel source) and the records from the Ottoman Empire (again a source that can not be considered pro-Israel), whereas the ethnic cleansing of Jews within the Mandate is very well documented. I insist that you prove that it even occurred.

Different species cant sexually reproduce. Close relatives can but statistics is stacked against the offspring in many ways. Such as being a sterile, or not being able to effectively reproduce with either of the specie that spawned it. So even with modern day close relatives, sexual reproduction is greatly restricted. Personally as far as I know any male human can sexually reproduce with any human female, regardless of various differences genetically speaking. Heck, human to human you will find variation in that regard.

Point being common ancestry pretty much knocks must of our culturally based racism out from being an issue like that. The people in Japan did not just spawn from the nether, nor did the people of France, the native Americans, whatever group of people you would like to talk about. I am sorry, but Christians for example. Is there some ideal human that is Christian, are they white, black, female, male? NO, but that does not mean I cant hold disgust with various parts of the ideology of Christian perception.

I understand that within our cognitive patters, again either by nature or nurture or the mix of the two that of course yes, the Jewish faith constitutes a culture and in that regard a race, but no its not genetic, that would be like me saying I cant be anything but a scientist, that such is genetic.

Again, on a level of dna and biologically speaking, no, there is one race of human beings. Our cultures and perceptions again is what separates us. Take a child from every variation of such on the planet, and raise that cultural primitive to a different perception and it all goes away, unlike our need to eat or something more organic in any sense.

I am not saying I am against this, but the reason I follow secular thought is I could care less to have an institution lead to the various horrific tragedies of our past, its a product of ignorance that never needed to occur and of course such cannot be taken back but we can learn from it.

On the topic though, I don’t like illegal immigration, I don’t however hate the immigrants, I don’t like bloods or crips, I don’t however hate the people that make up those groups, which seems like anyone anymore to be honest.

So on point, to say, that wow, I don’t agree with what Israel does in the Gaza strip, that somehow I am sure in someone’s mind equips itself into racism, the idea of bulldozers and other human rights violations I am sorry does not sit well with me and of a matter of fact angers me a little, sorry. Also to me, data pretty much shows the existence of Israel constantly being pretty much in a state of war, I try for the life of me to see how this has made life better for them.

My fear basically is for the worse, for people in general, not just certain man made sects of them. I don’t however just hate on difference for simply being that. I also just want facts, which of course are hard to find me thinks. In my perception of it, Israel was to be a place for Jewish people to be able to hold there culture in peace, that’s a great idea, but I don’t see that over there, has it ever existed? Is this truly just all the fault of the Palestinians?

Okay- I will put it like this- the poeple living there resisted registering thier land in British records- the jews wanting to settle there are familiar with European law, the locals did not. They lived there- do you disagree with that? Do you disagree with the fact that the majority of poeple living in that area WERE NOT Jewish?

What do YOU want to call it when lots of poeple are forced to leave the area they are living in, not wanting to go, but forced, due to war and straight out being deported- what words do you wish to use?

I liken it to the "cleansing" of the highlands of the scots- they simply weren't recognized under british law as being owners of the land, and were evicted. No ethnic cleansing there- right? Though, the highland valleys were pretty much emptied through British policies, and the poeple living there weren't living there any more.

So how do YOU want to characterize the population shift in that area?

And to be honest Loreng- I don't find the Israeli goverment any more reliable than the PLO, perhaps some red cross figures or amnesty international or some other form of census? The Israeli goverment, after all, does have some stake on how they fudge or don't fudge the numbers.

Even calling into question Israeli statements can get you labeled "anti-semitic"- it is the most popular defense against, well, pretty much ANYTHING Israel does- as soon as someone calls them on it- it is "anti-semitism"

My ONLY contention of Israel as a nation is this- they had no claim on the land, as a majority, in 2000 years. There were already poeple living there, and no matter which mechanism you want to call it- they were chased off the land so others could live there- basically, an invasion and displacement- has happened throughout history- to the Jews themselves as well- and that very, very recent event makes for millions of angry, displaced poeple that will continue to attack Israel by whatever means neccesary, because, what we have here is a "might makes right" type deal.

I will concede though- if you say that Sephradic jews are the majority in Israel, they probably are- I would not know if I were looking directly at every single person on Israel- I am not that sophisticated on the Jewish sub-groups.

Funny though- one of my best friends is a sephradic jew from Russia- named Dimitri- not exactly a Jewish name I think- and I had no idea he was Jewish by ethnicity until he told me- I thought he was ethnically Russian, to which I was teased by all around (mostly ethnically Russian) about my lack of perception in the visual differences- to which I still don't get- he is tall, has dark hair, light eyes, and tans easily. Only difference is that I don't tan easily, and am 100% Scot.

I am curious though- considering that if you mother is Jewish, you are Jewish- does the genetic (rare diseases) issues get passed down through the mother's bloodline? Should I have my children tested for some of those rare genetic disorders? I know my Mom's side has some specific to our family genetic issues- and they were tested and found negative-

How far can you water down a jewish bloodline and still be Jewish Loreng?

YOu are aware of the paper that shows we are all related to each other by the time you go back 2000 years?

You know, this is one of those topics where I just have to ask, whats the point of it? What is the point of trying make these distinctions of race or ethnicity as to who is or who is not Jewish/Semite/what ever.

I'm reminded of the film Conspiracy where the nazi leadership, under the authority of Reinhard Heydrich sit about a table at the Wannsee conference and try to determine who is and who is not a Jew in order that they might exterminate these people within a good and proper legal framework.

Although, I'm sure, the basis for this debate is not as far reaching as that, I'm still puzzled as to why it matters what colour skin, or what particular genetic make up the Jewish people have since it seems to be, obvious that the people are Israel are Israeli's, regardless of where they came from, Arabs and Jews alike.

Its also puzzling that in debating Israel, one often comes across the arguments that the Jews have no valid claims to the land, that Israel, by virtue of its youth, is invalid, and yet no one (apparently) advocating the demise of Israel seems too concerned about the Turks who settled the Anatolian peninsula (by means of war and ethnic cleansing far in excess of anything the Jews may or may not have carried out). Perhaps this is because the birth of Turkey was never a cause of concern for the multitude of Muslims who cry out against Israel, or maybe its because the democratic west wasn't muh involved in the foundation of Turkey, who knows.

One thing is for sure, no one is asking why the Turks, who do not have any Greek blood in their veins, are residing on the lands of the former Christian Greek civilization of Byzantium! Even when the gathered masses of Turks cry foul at Pope Benedikt and occupy the great cathedral, now museum mosque of Haghia Sophia, very few people ask by what right do these occupiers reside on ancient Greek land.

This will the last time I address these pack of lies. First off you are full it of claiming anything of the sort about land registration. The British registered all the land from the Ottoman records period. Since over 80% of the land was not privately held it went to the Jewish Agency as REQUIRED under international law. As for the Jews being a minority yes they were about 35% of the population and they received 22% of the land in the Mandate. The Arabs got 78% those figures are incontestable.

Ethnic cleansing let's address that bogus claim.

Maybe Syria's Prime Minister was an Israeli agent when he said

Here's another Israeli agent



John Bagot Glubb, the commander of Jordan's Arab Legion, said: "Villages were frequently abandoned even before they were threatened by the progress of war." London Daily Mail, (August 12, 1948).

So in short the claim that somehow the Jews had anything at all to with the fact the Arabs left their homes is a fallacy. I can produce literally hundreds of such examples.

Now for the Israeli government by all means use organizations like the Red Cross and Amnesty International, heck they must have run hundreds of censuses. I suppose since the US government lies so often the Japanese Red Army will be your source of information on the US population. The job of the census bureaus is run the census and keep track of data. To rely on organizations that have no information or knowledge would be like going to your plumber for dental work. And I certain find that the Israeli government is a tower of honesty compared to either racist organization.

The genetic disorders appear to be when both sides of the family are Jewish. How far down line nobody knows at this point. The only known facts are that there is only one common factor and that is that they are all Jewish and not converts.

Various constraints on gene pools will have there effect. I think such is easy to see the world over. It does not however in regards to definition produce different species.

My point is not to be offensive. I see that say Italians as a culture and a country, I don’t however view them a separate specie of human. I can also say that a religion can be its own culture, I don’t however view the followers as a separate specie of human. I view people the world over as the same specie, separated by our own devices, again either intrinsic or not or somewhere in-between, such as language barriers.

So overall, I hope to have not been of offense to anyone, I just simply don’t see the grounds on where people try to separate different races of human, last time I checked we were still all called homo sapiens.

gordo I haven't anything you have written to be offended about. So I am not.

As for the separate race issue. You are very correct we are all human beings first and foremost happen to think that a very good thing too.

If had read the part that I had put up from the Chicago Center for Jewish Disorders it had a number of links to various issues and some I had a difficult time understanding totally but what they did manage to get across to me is that the rate of some of these diseases what compared to know racial diseases of other groups like I saw Sickle Cell Anemia among blacks vs. non-blacks and beta-thalassemia among Greeks and Italians to name two and after reading a bit it seems that the rate of carriers and Disease Incidence for those two within their racial group is comparable to some the Jewish Disorders among that group. The most prevalent issue is among the Ashkenazi Jews, but the Sephardi had elevated levels as well. And given the genetic drift and time separation there shouldn't be that level. There is more to it, and at this point the science is not caught up and presented any other explanation. Is there more to it? I think so but I most likely will not live long enough to see it, maybe my children or grandchildren will.

In an attempt to shut down this derail just let me point out that the existence of race is not necessary for racism to exist. Racists are incredibly stupid people, and will seize on meaningless differences.
Is anybody here claiming that anti-semitism doesn't actually exist? Are you going to claim that non-religious ethnic Jews don't face anti-semitic sentiment? One needn't accept that "race" has any meaning to acknowledge that racism is a threat.

Any group of people alive today or group of our past has I am sure a large amount of words to dehumanize them for simply holding differences, not only that even horrible acts committed against them. I don’t think anyone in this thread has stated that hatred towards difference does not exist. If in some misdirect manner if I may my point was that different races of people do not exist, that is all.

I think the term racism in general is a misnomer generated from our ignorance, or why we even have to debate the idea that groups of people are of a different race, that the world should collectively band against people with hazel colored eyes or something.

I think this generally shows a cognitive lag if you will that even today that the fact the human race is exactly that is really in general a scary idea, more so then having to point out that mistake carries over into the word itself, racism. To have to debate the idea that the human race is the only race amongst our specie that is.

A person would have to live in a cave to think anti Semitism does not exist, or in that note be a person basically filled with hate. I think the reason this thread was generated moreover is the fact its hard to debate in any sense of the word casually or civilly about Israel when it seems that many times over the racist button is pressed. I mean most educated Americans know that native Americans, or that particular independent specie of human(if you accept the notion of race that is) was basically wiped out in a genocide. I don’t however figure that means that native Americans can do no wrong in the world, or more to the point, I think if a particular culture even if its not homogeneous should still be open to standards, even if some horrible atrocity did indeed happen to them. To me though, in many instances, debating on Israel seems to bring that out, or that you cant, and if you do, more often then not you somehow become a racist.

We wont make any progression to a better tomorrow in my opinion if we allow for such perception which gave us words like race to dominate everything. I think in the most elemental sense, our constitution reflected this, and such is why I think most the rest of the world and even the U.N pretty much adopted such. To end problems of old that lead to nothing but ignorance and of course death.

I think that’s where this thread mainly came from.

Moif, I think this a very fair question that deserves answering.

Firstly, I was asked not to derail another debate, which in a way I did by asking the question

Droop224


So I was asked to take my question somewhere else and I thought it was respectful to do so.

Secondly, I have to ask when does propaganda become fact? How many years does one say something until people start thinking a certain way.

I once pointed out in a previous debate, that arabs were semitic people as well, so that arab hate for Jews could not be considered to be anti-semitic. At this point, another debator told me I was splitting hairs, because anti-semitism has been a term reserved for Jews so long that being against a Jew was to be anti-semitic.

In other words, MOIF, propaganda had become fact. What started out with a grain of truth, was now so true that semitic people by region, ethnicity, and language, were now anti-semitic to people who only had the language.

It would be the equivelant (actually to a much greater degree) of 3rd and 4th generation American cubans resettling Cuba when Castro dies, and calling the Cubans already there anti-Cuban, if they try to fight them.

Now, we have members in our debating community calling people "Racist" for comments that go against Israel. And I have challenge the assumption that Jews are a race, before I argue that my comments are not racist. The reason why is, if I start arguing how my comments are not racist first, it gives credibility to the idea that Jews are a race, which I don't feel they are.

MOIF you have a picture of yourself (holding your lady, I think) and if you never told me, I'd never know you were a Jew. Matter of fact.... are you jewish?? At any rate I'm not trying to single you out. Here's a picture of Israel's Prime minister... Pretty hard to say that that man isn't white. That statement doesn't make any less a Jew than any other Jewish person.

In fact, when i look at the full list of Israeli Prime ministers, they all look white, they all are white. Which is surprising because I just read this statement from Loreng59




Okay... I must have "you big dummy" stamped across my forehead
I scrolled through every picture of prime ministers and read their profile, and you're telling me in a democratic state, where 70 percent of the democratic people of Israel hail from north africa, they haven't had one north African prime minister?? If so who?? Show me the picture.

Am I the only one here that finds this odd.

You see I think Cruisingram just didn't ask Loreng the correct question. Like

Loreng, If a baby is born in Israel, from to Jews that hailed from the russian empire, does that make him/her a North African Jew??? I bet it does...

And that my freinds is exactly how proaganda works... A kernel of truth to get you to believe something not true.

Which again is why I started this debate...

I was watching the G Ali show. And they have religious people on this show who he is interviewing. So any one who has seen G ali knows how the guy is.

Anyways, he asks a rabbi (paraphrasing) so would you a marry a non-jew. The rabbi answers no I wouldn't, because of values, morals.... etc, so I wouldn't marry a women that wasn't a jew OR willing to become a Jew.

And can someone explain to me how one becomes a race?? Can't happen.

Vermillion




I agree with the rest of your post, but again statements like this is why I thought this thread should be made. I am against the creation of Israel, therefore I am against the existence of Israel. I am not however, for the extermination of Jews or Semitic people.

Think about what I am saying here. In fact, I say... come to America!!!! We love you over here!! And from the success I see coming from the Jewish population of Amerca, I'm hard pressed to believe that there is any mainstream anger at Jews here.

But Israel, I can not be for. That makes me anti-israel. Which is a correct way to brand me.

I'm not against semitic people
I'm not against Jews
I'm not against whites, blacks, arabs,

I am against the creation of Israel.

The only way I even come close to racism, is I don't think it's O.K. for whites to go around the world, plant their flags and say "This is my home because my guns are bigger!!" IF that makes me a racist.... O.k. you got me there.

Also... this post is long... but I don't want to forget to adress certain things.

Genetic Disorders...

If many Jews choose to marry only other Jews and then you combine that with small number of Jews in a given area, withthe exception of those that convert then wouldn't the limited size of the genepool increase the chance of disorders.

At any rate, I find it hard to accept that a disorder connotes a race, especially, since it is pointed out that these disorders found more heavily among Jews are also found in non-Jews.


Race...

I agree to a degree that Race is a construct developed by man. We are not different species from one another. However, I do believe that construct of "race" exists, and does and should have limits.

Witches were persecuted, doesn't mean that wicans are a race of people. However wicans exist. Race is one of the broadest forms of distinction between different humans. And should stay that way. Admittedly, it can get confusing, because as I think we all agree it is a construct of the human mind.

You can put me in a room and tell me there is a Caucasion, an Arab, a Negro, and an Oriental. I could go in that room and visually differentiate between them.

Put me in the same test but say, there is a korean, a Japanese man, and a China man. I may be able to differentiate, but my chances completly would drop, but I bet you someone from that region would have a much greater chance. Because the person from the region would understand regional difference, that I am just unlikely to see. And even thogh these differences may be physical, I wouldn't say it makes the people a different race.

That's my view of race.

First off try a dictionary. Your choice any dictionary you want and the answer for the definition of an anti-Semite is something like

American-Heritage

an·ti-Sem·ite (nt-smt, nt-) KEY

NOUN:

One who discriminates against or who is hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews.


Merriam-Webster
anti-Semitism
One entry found for anti-Semitism.


Main Entry: an·ti-Sem·i·tism
Pronunciation: "an-tE-'se-m&-"ti-z&m, "an-"tI-
Function: noun
: hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group
- an·ti-Se·mit·ic /-s&-'mi-tik/ adjective
- an·ti-Sem·ite /-'se-"mIt/ noun

Cambridge International Dictionary

Definition
anti-Semitism Show phonetics
noun [U]
the strong dislike or cruel and unfair treatment of Jewish people:
Nazi anti-Semitism forced him to emigrate to the USA.

anti-Semite Show phonetics
noun [C]
He was a virulent anti-Semite.

anti-Semitic Show phonetics
adjective
anti-Semitic propaganda
anti-Semitic remarks

So where is there anything about North Africans or Arabs in those? Please maybe I don't read too well, but I sure haven't seen it once. Oh I have the Jews have taken over the dictionary companies and we won't publish your definiton of the term.

As for a Sephardic PM we haven't had one yet. But that would be like claiming that a majority of Americans are male. Please show me a picture of a female American President. And your country has even given women the right to vote before Israel existed so the majority of Americans can not be female following such brilliant deductions. Your logic leaves a lot to be desired.

How much was the bet? I think you owe me some money there. Jews from Russia are not Sephardi. You are missing out on the nearly one million Jews that were forced out of the Arab countries in the late 40s and early 50s. They and their descendants are now the majority of the Jews in Israel. The one million Russians came much later and do not have the same impact due to the time.

Yours is the propaganda not mine. If you don't care of little things like definitions then by all means go ahead and invent your own. But don't go around and accuse me of propaganda simply because you don't like the facts.

The same treaties that created most of the Arab countries from the Ottoman Empire were used to set up the State of Israel. If thoses treaties were invalid for Israel then the same can be said for all the Arab countries as well. Not the case - why - hypocrisy?

So even if you don't want to admit - if the shoe fits wear it.

Very interesting post, droop224. I believe that a lot of people feel exactly as you do. Not saying you're right or wrong, but you express the views very well. I said I wouldn't address the debate questions directly, and I won't. Questioning whether a race of people even exist doesn't go over well in our white/black debates, and I can't imagine that our Jewish posters feel about this any differently than blacks do, even though *you* can't tell them apart in a room, and the PM of Israel is a white guy...

Certain other groups, past and present have had no problems identifying Jewish people by their looks. Hooked noses and baggy eyes are a common theme. Along with drinking the blood of babies and taking over the world, of course. Just food for thought.

Anyway, I think this one point is worth addressing in the context of your post. Excuse the dangling preposition that follows, but I can't think of a way to be more clear.

What other countries are you against the creation of?

I've been in that situation in the past myself and I think it comes down to 'anti-semitism' being a phrase in common usage rather than a technical definition, Personally I never use the phrase since it is inaccurate.


I don't believe it is propaganda. I think the term 'anti-semitic' came about as a result of Europeans picking on Jews, who were considered semite people's. Its that simple. Times have changed a bit, but the words we use are stuck with historical baggage. Like how we debated the word nigger which was once just a way of saying black and in some countries, like Denmark (neger) is still commonly used because it has no negative conotation.

So it is with the words anti-semite. They've become more risky due to a new perception, but not risky enough to be considered politically uncorrect.


Well I can empathise with your prediciment, technically, what your asking is valid enough, but on the other hand, when you are constantly being attacked on the basis of who you are, then you would tend to take it personally.

A lot of Israel's opponents like to cast their criticism in the light of valid complaints regarding Israel's actions, and thats okay as far as that goes. Where it becomes racist is when these same people do not extend their criticism to the countries surrounding Israel... countries who have just as much, if not far more blood on their hands, like Turkey for example. It is this singling out of Israel that makes the criticism of the country appear to be so racist.


Yes for what its worth I am Jewish in as much as my Mother's family were Jewish. I do not believe in the Jewish religion, nor know much about it. I have no allegience to Israel either and as far as I know, no family there.
One thing I do know though. Hitler and his murderers would have gassed me, blue eyes and blonde hair regardless.


Yes, and here is a picture of the old President of Syria. Does he look 'semitic' to you?

Hmm- Loreng- okay- most of Israel is Sephradic Jews- I will concede that, and I understand why they are there- no problem. Okay- it is all the Arabs fault why Israel was changed from a arab majority nation to a Jewish majority nation- but the end result is the same- we had a complete racial change in Israel in a span of less than 50 years, and the losers in that majority hate the very notion of Israel, because of thier fate- blame it on whoeve you wish- but the end result is because of the creation of Israel- if no Israel- no population change- so the cause and effect- no matter who you blame- is the same- an ethnic change happened, and it was a result of the creation of a country for a minority goup in that region- do you dispute that as well?

In response to the question- yes, race is somewhat interchangeble like in the animal kingdom- a polar bear is distinctly genetically different to a brown bear- but the two CAN breed- but there is a distinct diffence in the two breeds- I look at race the same way- I am genetically different than blacks, but I can breed with them. So, race is sub-groups of the same species that can interbreed- like also, the big cats- a tiger can breed with a lion- and they are very different genetically- but they are all still big cats, and can breed.

My children are genetically Jewish- it can be proven with a DNA test- I can not, my in-laws can. So yes, Jews are a race. Yes, they have been intermingled with Euro blood- there is no way you can tell by looks my kids are Jewish- they look like fair haired vikings, both of them (kinda act like it too ) - but, if I were to do a DNA test on it- the Israeli goverment would recognize them as Jewish.

I do not wish a single hair harmed on a single Jewish woman or child that is an innocent- going about thier lives wanting the same thing as any other human- security, home, happiness, etc- though the politicians of any stripe, jewish, arabic or European, well, I have no care for them, anywhere.

My position on Israel is this- WE did it for mostly religious reasons, with a big part of guilt thrown in, and the Isrealis (I seperate them from the Jewish race as a whole- kinda a sub-set of a sub set in my mind) have used this guilt and such to beat down all opposition to THIER behavior as well- "pimping the holocaust" is what I call it.

Israel, however, is a done deal, and I don't see that nation going away in my lifetime, depending on the next 10-20 years, and how my kid's generation handle the politics of that region as well.

The entire region BREEDS radicalism, and moderation and compromise are stamped out and snuffed out by the extremes on both sides.

I think starting Israel was a mistake- NOT because I hate Jews, but because I think it further destabilized and radicalized an already historically crazy place on the globe.

If we were so concerned about Jews- we should have settled them right here in the US, all of them, a quite a bit safer place, even in 1948, when anti-semitism was still quite acceptable in the US.

Ohhh how I adore debate... Do you remember when I asked... "When does propaganda become fact."

You've done the work for me... with all your definitions of anti-semitic.

Semetic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic
Emphasis mine.



http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/semite

So I don't need to put you through an English lesson, so how is it that Arabs and middle eastern are included in the definition of being Semitic or Semites. Yet, none of the your definitions list arabs in the term Anti-semetic/ism/ite

Does that shoe fit to you?? Cause it doesn't make any since to me. Propaganda became fact!!! Personally, I believe Jews did coin the phrase as a means to elevate themselves closer to a race. They could have simply kept it at "anti-Jewish" because that what many natons were. But Jew connotes a religion, and as we see in this debate, many Jews want to be seen more than just a people of a certain faith. Thus the word games begin.





LOL really, is that what it's like.... I don't think so. What is more like is having only white Presidents of South Africa. You show me a country that is 70% one group and has never had one person from that group become a head of state.... I'll show you that place is a far cry from a Democracy. Pick your poison Loreng, cause I smell it... and it don't smell right. Not to mention like cruisingram, when I do my own research it seems Sephardic Jews are not the majority.

Like I said... something very fishy about your statement.




In a way I can see the hypocrisy, but there is one HUGE difference. Western treaties may have been responsible for the borders of many countries. But Israel is more than just the creation of borders. It was an invasion from European Jews into the Arab middle east, and the complete annexing of the land from the native people already there.



C-Whey

Thanks for participating a little.




No they have no problem distinguishing the stereotypical Jew. I'm not saying that Jew as a group of people have no similar features. I'm saying they're not a race of people. And if they are a race of people, then, Hell the Amish are a separate race of people . Because Judaism is a religious philosophy it has spread among so many people, one has to ask. If Jew is race... which Jews are the TRUE Jews. Are they the white European Jews?? Are they the Middle-Eastern Arab Jews?? Or is it the African/North African jews?? And if they all are true Jews how can the Jewish race span over different races??

Those pictures you show merely show the stereotypical white Jew, notice the pale skin. I thought the original Jews held out of the middle east?? In fact if a WWhite man saw a Arab jew he'd prbably think he was a muslim wouldn't he??



Man, good question. I was strive for intellectual honesty in debates, so I better just to you straight up.

None.

But then again I don't know of any countries that fit Israel's profile. Or has done what Israel has done. Look do you know of any European countries invaded by a group of Africans and then those same europeans expelled from their own land?? Find me a group of people that invaded another people in a distant land and then created a homeland in that land, and I will be against the creation of that nation. Ensure that we aren't talking about colonization either, because I am against all colonization and neocolonization.

MOIF



Agreed, but who started calling Jews Semites?? Did European jews self-identify themselves as semites or did the Nazi's start Identifying them as Semites?? I don't know, I did a little research, but I haven't found any usage by Nazis denouncing Semitic people... just Jews.



Again, it doesn't seem like race is the culprit.

First, look at ignorance, Turkey isn't in the spotlight, so even people who do seek out facts, are unlikely to start searching on Turkey?? However, I do deplore the way the Turkey treats it's Kurdish population. Basically, MOIF people just don't know. And let me be honest, American ignorance works 10 times better in favor of Israel, then against it. You ask an American how long has Israel been fighting off the muslims, and they'll tell you "Thousands of years" It's a convient misconception that has been eroding. And with the erosion of this concept, there is a hike in anti-Israeli speech in America.

Secondly, the time line. I only have to go back 60 years in the past to see the creation of Israel.

Thirdly, the change in thought by societies. Most western nation citizens find the idea of taking land at the tip of a sword reprehensible, So if they do come to believe, that this is how Israel came to be, they won't support Israel.



Exactly!!! It almost seems as if, Hitler, strange as it may sound, made the Jewish race!! Here you are Pale Skin, Blonde Hair, and Blue Eyes A caucasion. A white man. But because Hitler, ( had he known) would have slaughtered Jews and because in Hitler's warped mind he started characterizing Jews as a race of people with degenerate qualities, Jews tranformed into a persecuted race.

Christians were slaughtered by the Romans... that didn't make Christians a race.

Again, I appreciate the honesty. Here's the thing. The Jews have been slaughtered on a sporadic basis for a couple of thousand years, expelled from other nations for 3000 years (including Israel a number of times), and have essentially never been safe anywhere ever. Even in the pro-Jewish US, Jews are attacked something like 4 times as often as other so-called persecuted peoples. About one-third of the Jews in the world live in Israel. Your bold offer that the Jews come here is very noble, but at the time when Israel was formed we were actually sending Jews back to Germany, where you can imagine they didn't exactly feel safe. For the first time in thousands of years, there is a jewish homeland where they are in charge of their own destiny. And you're against the existence of that country, a country basically built from scratch in a desert. A modern miracle of civilization in an area where most of the people live in squalor under dictatorships. This country is a Democracy and member of the UN. What do you expect the Jews to think of people who question the existence of Israel and only Israel?


- Russia annexed dozens of countries and forcibly removed their people while forcibly moving ethnic Russians into their place.
- China has been doing the same for the past 50 years in Tibet, persecuting the Tibetans and raping their land, while moving Han Chinese in by the trainload.
- Serbia and Croatia went to war and expelled each other's ethnic populations just 10 or 15 years ago. The balkans have had population exchanges over the past 100 years.
- Simultaneous to the formation of Israel, India and Pakistan had probably the bloodiest forced population shift ever; hundreds of thousands of migrants died in the Partition of India to establish the 2 Muslim Pakistans. 7 or 8 Million people on each side fled to the other side, once the lines were drawn.

Yet you don't object to the existence of Serbia or Croatia, China or Russia, India or Bangladesh or Pakistan. Only Israel. Can you see why this causes me to question your motives?


Well, "expelled from their own land" can be pretty subjective. Did some Christian Spaniards or Albanians have go "give up their land" when the Muslims invaded? Of course they did, and the Muslims ruled Spain for what, 700 years? The best land and jobs of course went to the conquerers. That's how it worked in history. So, did some Christians in 7th-Century Moorish Spain have to move from one city to another? Certainly. The Palestinians in 1948 moved from a few miles to a few dozens of miles. And they weren't even really forced in most cases, they left thinking that the arabs were going to be coming and wiping out the Jews so they could move back. Anyway, a few miles is historically a big deal. Again, 20 million people were displaced in WWI, not even counting the 15 million who were forced or elected to move as a result of the India/Pakistan Partition.

For a more current example, here is the list of 751 areas where the French police are not safe to go, because of North African immigrants.


What good is it to be against colonization, if you don't oppose the very existence of the 100 or so countries that used to be colonies? Again, you are forgetting that the Jews were originally from the area we are discussing. No matter how long they were wandering around elsewhere, there have been some Jews in Israel for 5000 years. What is the threshold where you lose the claim on land that you've been forcibly expelled from in history? You seem to think that the Palestinians still deserve the land that they occupied for 50 or 100 years before Israel. At least half of them were North Africans who moved to Palestine.

The earliest use of the word 'semite', if I recall correctly, came about through the investigation of the origin of languages.

According to Wikipedia, a German linguist called Ludwig Schlözer coined the term in 1781 as a means of identifying languages related to Hebrew (the days before play station).

In the same article you can find this interesting paragraph:
Link.
...good old Alfred eh. Where would we be if only he'd had a play station to distract him. Well any way, there is your nazi connection. It took all of 60 seconds to track it down on Wikipedia (I love that site).


Indeed it isn't. Race is only the pretext.


Well thats an interesting way to put it... suppose though if you asked, how long have the Jews been subjected to Muslim oppression? Then the answer would be correct.

Its 32 years since the Turkish invasion of Cypress, and only 23 years back to the creation of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cypress.

Do they really? If this is so then why the silence on Cypress? Its right next door to Israel, barely a few hours away, and is a great festering land grab for all the world to see. No other nation but Turkey recognizes the Turkish Republic of Northern Cypress and the UN states that the island's soverignty rightly belongs to the Republic of Cypress.

So whats the difference between these two examples? Size? Dates? Ethnicity? Religion? Media attention? All of these combined? In my opinion, the reason why people do not equate Israel to Turkey is simple. Turkey is not a bone of contention for the Muslim world and there fore there is no out cry of anger by the surrounding millions of faithful about the treatment of the Cypriot Greeks, the Turkish Kurds, the Turkish Armenians or the Turkish Greeks. In fact, considering Turkey's track record, the utter silence regarding its many diabolical and aggressive actions in these times of righteous, moral indignation surronding Israel's actions, is just, amazing.

Any one might be forgiven their ignorance over Turkey's track record considering how little attention the place gets. Even today, with the outrage surrounding that oh so evil man, the Pope and the astounding hypocrisy being displayed by Ankara, its interesting to note that (despite Turkey's utter lack of complience with the EU's preconditions for membership) as the EU has frozen membership talks with Turkey, the British Prime Minister is more concerned with 'keeping the door open for the Turks', than defending the rights of the European citizens which Turkey has blithly trodden upon, (and hows that for a bargaining position?).


I understand what you mean, but although I can agree that our modern percpetion of the Jews is coloured by the Holocaust, I can assure you that percpetion is not reality, and the fact that so many people perceive something to be a fact, does not make it so.

It really ought to be the sort of thing one thinks about. 11 million people were killed in the Holocaust, 6 million of them were Jews, but the sad fact is, the Holocaust was not unique in anything but scale, and even then, it wasn't really. The Soviets put even more innocent people to death, especially under Stalin, and guess what... our old friends the Turks even had their own 'little' Holocaust first, beating the nazi's and the Soviet's by a good three decades when they put a million or so Armenians to death. If your curious, here are some images for you.
Now some people claim that the modern 'seculer' state of Turkey is not responsible for what happened in the waning years of the Ottoman empire, but if you ask me, if it looks like a Turk and talks like a Turk, then most probably it is a Turk, and given the brow beating the Germans have had to endure for what happened when their country was under former mangament, then I don't see why the Turks should have a free pass, especially when all the world is whining about Israel where so far, there has not been any genocide at all.

One could argue that the Israeli's ethnically cleansed Palestine prior to the foundation of their state, but if one accepts this as truth, and I believe there is indeed some truth in it, then one must equally accept that every single one of Israel's neighbours did the exact same thing, and for the exact same reason. To grab the land to create a state.

Israel is treated differently because the Muslims hate Israel. Israel is the focus for all their anger and aggression and frustration. It is a land of 'non believers', a western style democracy. Rich. Successfull. Powerful. Everything their own states have failed to acheive they see in Israel and to make it all worse, its people, though not all of them, are Jews. Their former subjects. A people whom the Muslims have kept under heel for over a thousand years.

This anger translates into western thinking because we are so troubled by our colonial and imperialist past, that we take upon ourselves the guilt, even for crimes we did not commit. Our media, influenced by millions of Muslims who have moved into our socities and now dwarf the Jewish communities amongst us, have begun to listen to the deafening roar of anti Jewish hatred (usually, but not always dressed up as 'valid criticism of Israel') and through interlectual laziness and the unwillingness to educate ourselves to ALL the facts, have taken this criticism to heart as fact.


The Jews were a race before they were a religion though. Thats the difference I think.

All this is very interesting, but the arguments surrounding Jewish identity are really besides the point. The fact of the matter is, people choose their own identity and they do so on the basis of self perception. It makes no difference why some one hates an Israeli, no matter why they do, they will use any and every excuse they can. Race is only a pretext and the accusation of anti-semtism as racism is just a method of saying that.


edited to correct some grammatical erros (too busy playing EVE to pay attention to my own words)

Don't need an English lesson? You are in desperate need of one. These are not my sources these are the world's sources. The definitions are not mine, I am not an English expert so I turn to them for their knowledge and guess what? Not one single English expert in the entire world agrees with you and your definition. Not one - remarkable. So if you care to challenge that statement be my guest I have produced facts and you turn to nonsense.

As for Israeli politics well that could be a week of explanation and two to correct your misunderstandings of it. The US national pastime is baseball, a game that I will never understand. Israel's is politics, and they love to play it. Their government is nothing like America's in any way, shape or form. It is more like England's but with a Hebrew accent. No one vote's for the PM, they vote for party platforms, the party central committees choose the party list. Each party does that differently, but what the hey it's the national sport. The only person that stands for direct election is the President and it's the members of the Knesset that are the voters. Two out of the last 3 were Sephardic. But since Israelis do not have sects or religions listed on their identification paper for that matter it is of no great importance to them.

So your childish logic that the majority sect must have the most PMs does equal to the fact that the majority of the citizens of America are female yet no female Presidents or even Vice-Presidents is just as valid. If you don't like Israeli politics don't participate.

As for your research, whatever floats your boat. You have made up your mind and that means the heck with the facts. Kind of reminds of the UN voting to condemn Israel for the 'Massacre of Jenin' then voting to investigate it. Decide on the facts first then investigate, yeah that sounds about your level

IF natural history and of course our knowledge of it today cant point out the fact that we are all homo sapiens or one race ultimately then I don’t know what else will really.

I will accept difference on what it is, that different cultures exist, that variation to our genes/chemistry exist, that different languages exist that ultimately different perceptions of reality exist. I wont however ever accept the ignorant notion of different human races.

Scientifically it simply is not true and nothing exists to support that stance honestly.

The basic science behind why I can say this can explain everything everyone is talking about, simply as to why blue colored eyes have came about and how they move around to anything else you would want to bring up.

I cant breed with an octopus, such is not possible, it is a different specie. Even with genetically close ancestors, other chimps or what not, no sir, such cant happen. I can however go and breed within my own specie, and currently that specie is homo sapien or the one I belong to.

I am not fighting against someone being able to say they are whatever, I am fighting against the ignorance that is the idea of different human races, different strains of our organism. I would accept the notion if it were true but again its not.

I don’t see why the push for such exists really, and to me its almost borderline racism on its own in my opinion.

To me it would be like stepping outside and spending the day informing everyone I am white, it simply just does not pan out to any form of a successful or intelligent endeavor.

---------------

To Israel. I am sorry for what has happened to that culture, I am, it does not to me mean though that I accept the IDF killing children in refugee camps, or bulldozing homes people may have liked to have a life in, regardless of reason, to me its barbaric and not needed, I will never like those acts, and no its not because Israel does them, I could care less who was doing it, I still would not accept it morally.

I can also say that for whatever peace Israel was to offer that culture, it certainly has not seemed to bring that to life in reality. I think more to the point Israel for whatever reasons has flamed the flames of hatred towards that culture, I also think it has elevated tensions to a very dynamic and dangerous level in the world and that not to long from now could mean nuclear warfare.

I will also not accept the fact that because Israel is comprised primarily by that culture that somehow means they can do acts that are indeed horrible, for there are many in the short history of Israel’s existence this time around.

Just like above though, soon it seems that everyone that attempts to debate such is just simply some uncaring racist or idiot or what not, it seems rather pointless actually, and just a repeat of some ignorance that fills our past with horror stories.