One of the more interesting things to come out of the suddenly shuttered Race Debate thread about discrimination was Dr. William H. Cosby and his propensity in recent years to talk smack about how Black people are most responsible for their own bad behavior.

Some examples of Cosby bringing the pain:

"Let me tell you something, your dirty laundry gets out of school at 2:30 every day. It's cursing and calling each other 'nigger' as they're walking up and down the street. They think they hip -- can't read, can't write -- 50 percent of them."

"The more you invest in that child, the more you are not going to let some CD tell your child how to curse and how to say the word 'nigger.' This is an accepted word. You are so hip with 'nigger,' but you can't even spell it."

"When you put on a record, and that record is yelling 'nigger this' and 'nigger that' and cursing all over the thing and you got your little six-year-old and seven-year-old sitting in the back seat of the car -- those children hear that. And I am telling you when you put it the CD on and then you get up and dance to it -- What are you saying to your children?"

"Young men and old men, you've gotta stop beating up your women because you didn't find a job, because you didn't want to get an education and now you are [earning] minimum wage. You should have thought more of yourself when you were in high school."

"Our children are trying to tell us something (with their self-destructive behavior) and we're not listening."


Cosby's tough love has polarized the Black community. Some applauding the Cos and others condemning him. Some of the harshest criticism has come from professor Michael Eric Dyson, a single father and former welfare recipient whose book, Is Bill Cosby Right?: Or Has the Black Middle Class Lost Its Mind suggests Cosby is engaged in class warfare with poor and working-class Blacks. Dyson theorizes why Cosby is turning his guns on rappers and bad role models.

A lot of people point out that perhaps Mr. Cosby is dealing with some kind of post-traumatic stress from the vicious murder of his son . You can understand that, in a sense, he might look around and say "all these niggers ain't doing nothing. All these poor black boys and girls ain't doin' nothing and my son who was working on his doctorate degree was murdered." You could understand that.

The other part of it is that rich black people hate poor black people -- let’s break it on down -- rich niggas hate poor niggas. Part of the problem that we are confronting is that the black elite, the "Afristocracy," simply hates the "ghettocrats." There’s a huge class chasm within our own community. What we don't understand is that these are ancient tensions that have been in our community for far longer than people are willing to recognize.

Dyson has come in for his own share of criticism for neglecting to mention Bill Cosby's commitment to philantrophy such as the $20 million gift to Spellman College. Critics have called the book "unbalanced" and a "rhetorical screed."

Cosby is America's Dad and a lot of us watched him play the role for years on The Cosby Show with his beautiful lawyer of a wife and those gosh-darn cute and well-dressed and mannered kids. Is Bill playing the role for real now or does he have a point? Maybe Dyson is right that Cosby has forgotten his roots and is engaging in a rage-induced rant against the lower classes that reached out and shattered his carefully constructed world.

The questions for debate.

1. Is Bill Cosby right and just being brutally honest in a politically correct society that dislikes inconvenient truth?

2. Is Cosby only saying things now about taking personal responsibility and ending "the victim mentality" of Blacks that conservatives have been saying for years?

3. Is the fierce debate between Dyson and Cosby a sign that Blacks have a choice to make between mainstream values and hip-hop culture?

Before I say anything, let me address this: This paragraph is the most disgusting thing I've ever read. Who in the hell is Michael Eric Dyson to say this about anybody? How much lower can you possibly go than saying "well, he just thinks that becase <insert worst tragedy that has ever occured to the person you're talking about here> happened to him. This paragraph is the equivilent of me dismissing the Sept. 11th widows' opinions by saying, "eh, don't listen to them, they're a little off ever since the attacks."

<insert seemless transition here>

Yes, he's being brutally honest and is presenting an inconvenient truth [with all apologies to Al Gore]. Unfortunately if you're a black person and say something like this, a faction of the black community resorts to name-calling and attempted character assasination. In addition, if a white man or woman said the same things Dr. Cosby said, s/he would be labled a racist, in my opinion. The unwritten rule is: only black people can make generalizations about black people, whether they are true or not.

I don't know. There are so man so-called "conservatives" out there it's hard to judge. I know small government libertarian conservatives have been.

It certainly is a sign. Frankly I don't see how people like Dyson can gain widespread support while implying that Bill Cosby is saying what he says either because he's still shaken from the murder of his son or it's because he hates "poor niggas"...Because honestly, how could anyone hold Cosby's opinion without being irrational, right? What is the most disturbing part of this mess is that there is ZERO middle ground. If you support Cosby you're not really black and if you support Dyson you're an ignorant hoodlum. I personally agree with Cosby but if there is no middle ground in this struggle then what good is it?

CP

I've heard Dyson's rant on the radio several times and he's an idiot. He's no "thinker" and he's stuck in a time warp of 1968..... like, unfortunately, many on the left side of the political aisle.

People like Dyson are part of the problem in this country, not part of the solution.

Dyson's main thesis in his rap is that any "real black" could never agree with a "white man" or live by the "white man's rules". He's fallen into the trap that because people who look like him were discriminated against in the past, THEREFORE....he.... is owed something.

How can anyone dispute what Cosby (and others) are saying about the reality of the underclass in the USA?

The excuses based on past history only go so far. At some point, people, HUMAN BEINGS have to be held accountable for THEIR actions.

To believe otherwise assumes that individuals do not have free will..... nor reason.... nor the capacity to combine the two.

Would Dyson have us believe that dysfunctional young "blacks" who are "keepin it real" should be fully accepted into the greater American society in spite of their lack of good choices? And on top of it that their bad behavior is the "fault" of the "evil white man"?

Does Dyson think that "white" America is any different in their way of thinking than what he labels "Afristocracy"? Does he REALLY believe that successful "white" Americans look at trailer trash losers and feel some sort of affinity for them based on the fact that they may look like them?. And what's "white" anyway? The world is so diverse with so many differentiators between people, cultures, and the like, that "race" gets lost in the shuffle. Plus, there is no scientific basis for it anyway. But to people like Dyson, the world can be divided up into two groups; black and whitey. To Dyson, the upper class executive and the trailer dwelling redneck are all one os the same; a "white man" born of "white privilege".

I find Dyson disgusting. He's a hard core racist, a huckster, and a pseudo-intellectual. On top of it, his comments about the death of Cosby's son are insensitive and irresponsible. If that is what passes for "thinkers" in the "black community" today, they are in worse shape than I feared. But, I am after a "racist" as nighttimer, daffygirl, and vermillion have declared. So what do I know about this issue? Fire away.

1. Is Bill Cosby right and just being brutally honest in a politically correct society that dislikes inconvenient truth?

Yes.


2. Is Cosby only saying things now about taking personal responsibility and ending "the victim mentality" of Blacks that conservatives have been saying for years?

Dunno.


3. Is the fierce debate between Dyson and Cosby a sign that Blacks have a choice to make between mainstream values and hip-hop culture?

No. There are as many choices as there are individuals and neither man has the one true answer which will fit every one. Of the two however Bill Cosby (I'm assuming this is the guy from the Cosby show) is closer to the mark since the most important ingredient for a successful society is accepting one's fellow citizens and being accepted in return. Or as Aretha Franklin sang; respect.

Using terminology that disrespects other people, no matter what you think of them, is not conducive to any form of civil society.

Actually, by more than just those three, but who is counting.

I'm dividing this post into two. The first deals with the original question, the second is an 'open letter' to the mods here. Actually, the second part is being removed by the mods here. If you think I am wrong, let me know, If you agree, then post that as well.

Part I
Firstly, a great deal has been made out of Bill Cosby's comments pointing out some of the self-destructive habits of a small minority in the black community. They tend to be taken as a representation of his entire views on race relations, which is of course not true. Yes, he made a strong and controvercial points about the need of parents to take a firm hand in the raising of their children. However he has also said the following:

"racism is omnipresent in all of the country's institutions, and is a burden Black people have to bear all across America, affecting our daily lives."

All African-Americans, regardless of their educational and economic accomplishments, have been and are at risk in America simply because of their skin colors, Sadly, my family and I experienced that to be one of America's racial truths."


So let us be clear, while he wants Parents to take a strong hand in their upbringing, and railed against a small segment of black society for some bad decisions, he is also very vocal about the danger and seriousness of anti-Black racism in America. So please do not pretend that by 'Cherry-picking' (for real this time) a couple of Cosby's comments and ignoring the rest one can make him seem to agree with a unique, extremist point of view. In his book 'Fatherhood', which is mostly a light comedy about the decision to have and bringing up children, he still mentions preparing children for the racism they are sure to encounter growing up.

When Paula Zahn interviewed Cosby, and pointed out that some conservatives are using his words to make it seem like all problems Blacks face are their OWN fault, Cosby replied: "he surely didn't give a damn about what white folk thought about his campaign or what nefarious uses they might make of his public diatribe."

His opinions on the presence of racism DO NOT lower the impact or effect of his comments on wanting people to take more responsibility, but the opposite is equally true. He never opposed the existence of racism, others have ascribed that to him to make his words met their agenda. People Like Zahn askng if Cosby is a 'race traitor' just throw fuel on the fire.


What about Dyson? Is his point of view as extreme and 'hard core racist' as some would have you believe, or are those comments just made up on the spot? Well, Dyson has this to say about Cosby's comments:

"while Cosby is right to emphasize personal behavior (a lesson, by the way, that many wealthy people should bone up on), we must never lose sight of the big social forces that make it difficult for poor parents to do their best jobs and for poor children to prosper."

Dyson states openly he does not disagree with Cosby's basic message, just with its overamphasis. Also with some of the other impacts on elements in society he mentions:

"Cosby may be right that most black folk in jail are not "political prisoners," but it doesn't mean that their imprisonment has not been politicized. Given the vicious way blacks have been targeted for incarceration."

A statement borne out by detailed Department of Justice, US sentencing Commission and other studies on comparative sentencing for cases along racial lines.

http://washingtontimes.com/national/200411...15912-8972r.htm
http://cjr.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/22/2/133
http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?sectio...;articleId=7882
http://www.soros.org/initiatives/justice/a...parity_20050128
http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/June06...hworthy.lm.html
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/cpracepttab.htm

Let us not forget that in 1972 the Supreme court of the United States declared that the death penalty was used disproportionately and unjustly against Blacks and ethnic minorities. Clearly there is a problem in the criminal justice system apart from the assertion that Blacks are just 'more criminal'.

Now, does the racist problem of the US criminal justice system excuse all behaviour in any black person who commits a crime? Of course not. People should be held accountable for their actions. Despite the attempts of certain people to fake this argument, nobody left or right is claiming otherwise. Dyson himself, does not make it either.

Thus Dyson, while not disagreeing with Cosby's general principle, places the emphasis on the racist nature of the system itself.


Part II: Open letter.

Removed. We do not air our grievances about the moderators or operations of the forums in a debate.

1. Is Bill Cosby right and just being brutally honest in a politically correct society that dislikes inconvenient truth?

I think he is being honest with-in himself and what he believes yes.

2. Is Cosby only saying things now about taking personal responsibility and ending "the victim mentality" of Blacks that conservatives have been saying for years?

If I recall correctly Bill Cosby has been saying this for quite a few years now. "Only saying things now" would indicate that he just recently made these statements and I know he's been saying this at least 2 years now, maybe more.

3. Is the fierce debate between Dyson and Cosby a sign that Blacks have a choice to make between mainstream values and hip-hop culture?


Before answering this, I would need to know how you define mainstream values and hip-hop culture as well.

1. Is Bill Cosby right and just being brutally honest in a politically correct society that dislikes inconvenient truth?

I agree with Bill Cosby, and I think about what he says whenever I see a man walking down the street holding his drooping pants in the front around the crotch area to keep them from falling down around his ankles. The hip hop, "playa" stereotype is destructive to groups that embrace it, whites included, even though some in the entertainment and clothing industry are profiting a great deal from it.

How does it foster acceptance or respect to call each other "nigga" (however you spell the epithet), especially when the excuse of using the term to weaken it is shown to be a lie whenever someone of another race uses it publicly? If its use in the African American community has reduced it to an innocuous term of familiarity, why wasn't Michael Richards merely derided off the stage and then ignored as irrelevant?

In addition, use of the term "bitch" to refer to one's girlfriend is certainly not a sign of respect or affection. It is a term of contempt and subjugation as well.

2. Is Cosby only saying things now about taking personal responsibility and ending "the victim mentality" of Blacks that conservatives have been saying for years?

Bill Cosby isn't really saying something new. But you would pretty much have had to be in church listening to a sermon to hear it otherwise, or read a conservative publication. Bill Cosby brought it out into the open for the mainstream news media to pick up and publicize.

I don't know this Dyson guy; the only thing I have been exposed to with the name Dyson is a new type of vacuum cleaner. Based on what was quoted in this thread, I believe Dyson takes somewhat of a patronizing view of Bill Cosby when he mentions the tragic death of Cosby's son. It isn't helpful.

While Dyson might be right about more affluent African Americans not wanting to be associated with poorer African Americans with their entertainment and lifestyle preferences, it is hardly a unique phenomenon. Witness the curling of the lip when some white Americans refer to other white Americans as "trailer trash." Classism is rampant, but it should not be affixed to Bill Cosby's criticism of what amounts to a destructive culture.

3. Is the fierce debate between Dyson and Cosby a sign that Blacks have a choice to make between mainstream values and hip-hop culture?

We all make choices every day, and these choices either help us or hinder us in our efforts to get along in society and make a livable wage. A lot of the white kids who sport the anarchy symbol are going to have to put it away in order to be hired by a business person who, after all, wants that business to succeed and does not wish to tolerate idiosyncracies in an employee that might discourage new clients, sales or productivity.

So yes, there is a choice to be made. To take on a persona that is at odds with mainstream society and then scream prejudice when one does not succeed is to ignore one's own responsibility in the situation.

We are in full agreement Paladin Elspeth on nearly every point. I guess you have joined the class of "racists" along with me.

The reason that some gravitate toward Dyson and bad mouth Cosby is because hucksters like Dyson keep the hate alive.

What Dyson does is no different than what David Duke and the "white power" clowns do when they play to disaffected low-class "white" losers by preaching to them that their low standing, their lack of success, and their pain is NOT the result of their poor choices, bad decisions, and insistence on living in a dysfunctional way, but due to OTHERS who hold them down... mainly the "Jews", the "Zionists", "ZOG", and the blacks who are there to exploit their women and take their jobs.

Hate is a seductive message to those who haven't succeeded. It removes any sense of responsibility, accountability, and ownership of one's own success. That's why so many Palestinians gravitate toward it, why low-class-white-losers do, and why members of the "black underclass" and the hucksters who exploit that seductive power buy into its message.

The history of the United States is what it is. There is no undoing the legacy of slavery or blatant racism that was practiced up until 40 years ago or so.

But when one looks at the demographics of this country, most people weren't even alive during that period. Should THEY be held responsible for the racism they never practiced? What about slavery? There are NO former slave owners still alive. Yet, we are told by some, who want to keep the hate alive, that current Americans who happen to look like former slave owners, should be accountable for those past actions.

That's absurd. Should modern Germans be held accountable for the Nazis? Of course not.

Bill Cosby hits the nail on the head. Instead of harping about "racism", which is a relatively minor factor facing "blacks" today, he advocates cutting through the baloney and focusing on basics and fundamentals. One can't hope to succeed when one makes babies at a young age without a father committed to long-term support of that child. One cannot hope to succeed in this world if one cannot read/write and perform mathematics. One cannot aspire to succeed if one lacks the basic skills required to socially integrate oneself into the larger culture. One has no chance if one abandons the rule of law, embraces a criminal mentality, abuses drugs and refuses to live by society's rules..... by claiming, as the huckster and hate enabler Dyson does, that one has the RIGHT to a separate culture outside of any social accountability because of past historical facts and because one looks a certain way.

The whole race issue has become a crutch for some. And a vehicle for an arrogant form of patronizing racism that is as insidious as any other.

There is NO reason why black Americans shouldn't be able to perform to the same standards as everyone else. It's time to start focusing on the REAL reason they aren't as a group... and stop the counterproductive snake-oil-salesmen who keep the hate alive.... in order to improve THEIR own standing, wealth, and "power" in the "community". The growing ranks of the "black upwardly mobile professional class", black republicans, and black conservatives show that it can be done and these role models demonstrate a template for success. Yet, to the hucksters like Dyson, who want to keep the hate alive, these success stories are sell outs, race traitors, and Uncle Toms. One sees the same mentality in the middle east where "progressive" Arabs who wish to reach peace with Israel and the non-muslim world in general are marked for death or social expulsion.

When you get right down to it, Cosby preaches a way forward and Dyson a way back.

Which course seems most logical?

1. Is Bill Cosby right and just being brutally honest in a politically correct society that dislikes inconvenient truth?

The incontinent reality to me is nobody knows the truth on "race" relations in America, I mean I think such is rather evident on its own without me having to point such out.

2. Is Cosby only saying things now about taking personal responsibility and ending "the victim mentality" of Blacks that conservatives have been saying for years?

As long as humanity buys into the notion of race which leads to victims ultimately I don’t think much progress is going to be made period.

3. Is the fierce debate between Dyson and Cosby a sign that Blacks have a choice to make between mainstream values and hip-hop culture?

What is the hip hop culture? IS it east coast vs. west coast rivalry, is it a dance style? Last time I checked various difference in regards to people makes itself a personality in hip hop. Heck, maybe in a hundred years hip hop will try to be its own race, I have no idea, I think it is already going that way though.

The two people are entitled to there opinions respectively, personally I think if such was on the mark it would not be that much of a debate to it.

On a side note, it seems like always everyone wants to rule the world, or in this case maybe American culture. I am sorry but if everyone wants our culture to reflect a certain pattern of thought or behavior its simply never going to work, it would be a chemical explosion of a melting pot type accident in that case actually. Maybe the new style of clothes should be a cowboy hat with sagging pants with a necklace bearing every religions symbol, to me it sounds rather uptight and tense.

You planning on hanging on that cross forever, lordhelmet? The more you cry about being outed as a racist the more accurate it appears. Get over the martyr complex.

"Keep the hate alive." Come up with a new phrase, huh? That's two or three times now you've used that one. Not very catchy though and I doubt it will catch on as a bumper sticker.

Michael Eric Dyson is wrong. Wrong about Bill Cosby. Wrong in his defense of bad behavior. Wrong in his slimy analysis in what motivates Cosby's crusade.

Dyson is a smart guy. Very articulate and very much committed to presenting a people who are often stigmatized and stereotyped as ordinary people who have to deal with many of the same problems every minority group has faced and some special traumas no other minority group ever has.

He's picking the wrong fight here. Instead of dissing Cosby he should be reaching out to him and trying to educate him. Bill does not have the perfect solution for everything that ails Black America. But Cosby has started a much-needed discussion about what Black people must do and cleaning up our own houses and ourselves is a good jumping off point.

The Cos' called columnist Clarence Page to explain himself. Page wrote in a Washington Times column:

Among those who missed his point, the last straw for Mr. Cosby appears to have been an op-ed essay by Michael Eric Dyson, a University of Pennsylvania humanities professor and well-known Cosby critic, in the July 21 edition of The Washington Post. Mr. Dyson lashed Mr. Cosby's "blame-the-poor tour" for ignoring major political and economic forces that continue to reinforce black poverty, like low wages, outsourcing, capital flight, downsizing and substandard schools.

"None of these can be overcome by the good behavior of poor blacks," Mr. Dyson declared.

But, of course, that statement is wrong, dangerously wrong in the disrespect it pays to the value of good behavior. As generations of successful black families can attest, good behavior won't solve all of your problems, but it beats drugs, crimes, abuse, child neglect or other self-destructive behavior.

Mr. Cosby offered two stellar examples: Jachin Leatherman and Wayne Nesbit, who defied the usual young black male stereotypes by graduating at the top of their class from Ballou High School, which has one of the District of Columbia's worst crime, poverty and dropout rates. Having survived distractions that included the shooting death of one of Wayne's football teammates, the two athletes are headed for the College of the Holy Cross this fall.

At a July forum in Washington that featured Mr. Cosby, Harvard psychiatrist Alvin Poussaint and other experts on the state of black men in America, both of these bright young men were asked how they did it. They praised their fathers and their coaches for "staying on top" of them.

Clarence Page

Dyson calls himself "the hip-hop intellectual." I guess by taking down Cosby it enhances his street cred as willing to take on the Black bourgeoise, but I rather he pick a fight with the real enemies of Black progress such as sell-out punk rappers who put calling Black women "bitches" and "ho's" and the record companies paying them big dollars to do so.

I understand Dyson's point, but I don't agree with it. If "keeping it real" means being an apologist for hatred of women, glorifying materialism, drug use, and self-destructive behavior, that is where I come down on the side of William H. Cosby, not Michael E. Dyson.

Which is not exactly an isolated position.

Dyson is a very smart guy, and he knows how to lay out an argument. That much is obvious. I also think his underlying theme asking that we take a more compassionately understanding and better-informed view of the poor before allowing ourselves to be drawn into the current of criticism and ridicule is a good one. I know Dyson is right that there is a widening class rift between the black poor and the black elite and middle class, and that each side often views the other with disdain and even hatred. I have heard poor blacks go on at length about how “those niggers always think they’re better than us” just as I have heard more well-to-do blacks go on at equal length about “those ghetto niggers.” I have family members and good friends on both sides of that fence, so I’m well aware of the heated emotions.

What Dyson doesn’t discuss enough, however, is that it is not just the black middle class that is hurling insults at the black poor for their perceived failings and shortcomings, and it’s not the white man either. Dyson voices the concerns of many that America’s No. 1 Dad is providing ammo and cover to grateful racists. But some of the most vicious verbal attacks against the black poor I’ve ever heard have come from the black poor themselves. Do you want to really hear somebody talk bad about the way young hip hoppers wear their pants too low or blast their rap music too loud in the hood, or how too many young girls are having babies with no knowledge of parenting skills while the boys move on to their next conquest? Well, just ask some of their neighbors. But be sure to wear an asbestos suit before posing the question because the fire coming out of their mouths will be sure to burn. The troubled behavior and trauma that other folks either read about in the morning paper or see on the evening news is the type of trauma and behavior that they have to deal with every day and every night. For them this is not a news story or an interesting subject for a sociological study — this is real life. I might also add that black comedians such as Chris Rock have lampooned poor blacks and received thunderous applause and riotous laughter in reply.

As I said before, I agree with Dyson that poor blacks have enough to worry about without trying to shield themselves from ridicule and insults from those who have managed to steer clear of the hellhole that is black poverty. Dyson is also right that poor blacks aren’t the only ones responsible for disturbing behavior. Poor whites and members of other races living in similarly tough conditions exhibit much of the same behavior. And Dyson is right that it will require much more than criticism to heal black poverty, it will require a virtual army of long overdue remedies working in concert.

He’s right again when he says Dr. Cosby isn’t an intellectual and isn’t one to exhibit charts, graphs, and statistics to make his point as is a Dr. Michael Eric Dyson or a Dr. Cornel West, but this doesn’t mean he isn’t qualified to speak out in anger at what he sees, nor does it mean that he is all wrong. Cosby has hit a nerve because he’s isn’t the only one enraged at what is going on. Although his approach may have been over-the-top, I believe his heated response to the tragic conditions he sees are similar to what one would do aboard a plane about to crash into a mountainside: He screamed.

Cosby didn’t scream because he hates the plane, he just doesn’t want to see the plane go down in flames.

Keith Owens

3. Is the fierce debate between Dyson and Cosby a sign that Blacks have a choice to make between mainstream values and hip-hop culture?

No! When are people ever restricted to only two options? Although blacks tend to vote in a block, this does not mean they are otherwise a monolith. The very idea of choosing up sides here seems to erect an "us" vs. "them" mentality in the black community as opposed to offering an wide array of different positions.