Full Version: Does democracy have to have equality?
Here is an example of discrimination in Israel against non-Jewish citizens.
a party platform that challenges the Jewish character of the state, that for example calls for full and complete equality between Jews and Arabs in a state for all its citizens, can be disqualified, as lists have been in the past
Link
This pro-palestinian site points out many types of discrimination in the Israeli system. Is this really democracy or is a form of social control by one specific part of the population that guarantees Jewish supremacy.
Isn't this the stuff that MLK jr. fought against?
a party platform that challenges the Jewish character of the state, that for example calls for full and complete equality between Jews and Arabs in a state for all its citizens, can be disqualified, as lists have been in the past
Link
This pro-palestinian site points out many types of discrimination in the Israeli system. Is this really democracy or is a form of social control by one specific part of the population that guarantees Jewish supremacy.
Isn't this the stuff that MLK jr. fought against?
QUOTE(Eeyore @ Feb 25 2003, 02:50 PM)
Here is an example of discrimination in Israel against non-Jewish citizens.
a party platform that challenges the Jewish character of the state, that for example calls for full and complete equality between Jews and Arabs in a state for all its citizens, can be disqualified, as lists have been in the past
Link
This pro-palestinian site points out many types of discrimination in the Israeli system. Is this really democracy or is a form of social control by one specific part of the population that guarantees Jewish supremacy.
Isn't this the stuff that MLK jr. fought against?
a party platform that challenges the Jewish character of the state, that for example calls for full and complete equality between Jews and Arabs in a state for all its citizens, can be disqualified, as lists have been in the past
Link
This pro-palestinian site points out many types of discrimination in the Israeli system. Is this really democracy or is a form of social control by one specific part of the population that guarantees Jewish supremacy.
Isn't this the stuff that MLK jr. fought against?
I agree wholeheartedly. Israel has the power. They need to comply with the UN and pull back to the pre-1967 borders.
To say that the Palestinians need to stop fighting back before any peace can be achieved is a ridiculous argument. What if the United States government, right after the Civil War, said "we will only end slavery when there have been zero rebellions for a period of 1 year." Silly. People will fight to be free. The always have, and they always will.
Israel needs to act like a mature person and stop the fight they started.
Of course, it's not that simple. Nothing in the Middle East is. But while I support Israeli statehood, they have been behaving criminally. Calling Israel a democratic nation today is like calling the US of 1820 a democracy. It may be written down, but it is not applied in any way equally.
And don't forget that there are Palestinians who are Israeli citizens in the post- 1948 to pre-1967 variety. Israel refused to readmit Palestinian refugees after the 1948 war (that right of return was one of the deal breakers in the 1994 negotiations) and then swallowed up the major refugee communities in occupation zones in 1967.
But inside Israel "proper" Palestinians are not given full citizenship.
But inside Israel "proper" Palestinians are not given full citizenship.
Lets not forget who declared war after the Partition was announced by the U.N.
Frankly I'm surprised to see so many Americans here criticizing Israel for ignoring the U.N. when the U.S. doesn't exactly have a sparkling relationship with that entity. Israel was INVADED. If the U.S. was invaded by Mexico and you conquered the border areas during the conflict would you just hand them over?
Frankly I'm surprised to see so many Americans here criticizing Israel for ignoring the U.N. when the U.S. doesn't exactly have a sparkling relationship with that entity. Israel was INVADED. If the U.S. was invaded by Mexico and you conquered the border areas during the conflict would you just hand them over?
I dont think peace can exist without equality, so no, democracy will need it or it will be a constant war at the voteing both that carries on in the real world, kind of like the u.s. Of course you have to take into account that the u.s is less religous then over there, but the u.s suffers as it is from its own intolerance.
And with all that would you like a job at the u.n
And with all that would you like a job at the u.n
QUOTE(Ultimatejoe @ Feb 25 2003, 09:25 PM)
Lets not forget who declared war after the Partition was announced by the U.N.
Frankly I'm surprised to see so many Americans here criticizing Israel for ignoring the U.N. when the U.S. doesn't exactly have a sparkling relationship with that entity. Israel was INVADED. If the U.S. was invaded by Mexico and you conquered the border areas during the conflict would you just hand them over?
Frankly I'm surprised to see so many Americans here criticizing Israel for ignoring the U.N. when the U.S. doesn't exactly have a sparkling relationship with that entity. Israel was INVADED. If the U.S. was invaded by Mexico and you conquered the border areas during the conflict would you just hand them over?
I never tried to claim that the United States has a saintly past in this thread. I never put forth the Arab League (which declared war on Israel when it was formed) as a model for democracy. But in the former Palestine of which Israel now takes up the majority of the space, Palestinians lived. And defeat and conquest do not take away their right to exist.
Many of these Palestinians remained inside Israel all along and they were not granted equal rights like the people of present day Texas, California, New Mexico, Arizona, and Utah now enjoy.
My question was, is Israel a democracy? And more specifically, if they practice a selective democracy that suppresses its minority ethnic and religious groups, are they the type of democracy we want to put forth as a model form of government?
AS for the United States we have conquered many areas and turned them back over. France twice, North Africa, Cuba, Philippines, Germany, Japan, South Korea, Afghanistan. So we are not a land grabbing empire that cannot control ourselves at all times. And we have gradually overcome our prejudice and hatred and extended legal equality over time. (African-Americans, women, Chinese, Native Americans are examples of citizens that did not always enjoy equal rights in our country that now do.
Most african-americans would dispute that they enjoy equal rights.
Is Israel a democracy? Yes. Are illegal aliens allowed to vote in the U.S.? Some of them have been living in your country for decades and they don't enjoy citizenship.
Is Israel a democracy? Yes. Are illegal aliens allowed to vote in the U.S.? Some of them have been living in your country for decades and they don't enjoy citizenship.
[quote=quarkhead,Feb 25 2003, 05:01 PM]
Isn't this the stuff that MLK jr. fought against? [/QUOTE]
I agree wholeheartedly. Israel has the power. They need to comply with the UN and pull back to the pre-1967 borders.
To say that the Palestinians need to stop fighting back before any peace can be achieved is a ridiculous argument. What if the United States government, right after the Civil War, said "we will only end slavery when there have been zero rebellions for a period of 1 year." Silly. People will fight to be free. The always have, and they always will.
Israel needs to act like a mature person and stop the fight they started.
Of course, it's not that simple. Nothing in the Middle East is. But while I support Israeli statehood, they have been behaving criminally. Calling Israel a democratic nation today is like calling the US of 1820 a democracy. It may be written down, but it is not applied in any way equally. [/quote]
No, it is not that simple. Who attacked who in 1967? Isreal is suppossed to give back land they win in wars where they are the ones initially attacked? In that case what discourages Isreal from being attacked again?
Isn't this the stuff that MLK jr. fought against? [/QUOTE]
I agree wholeheartedly. Israel has the power. They need to comply with the UN and pull back to the pre-1967 borders.
To say that the Palestinians need to stop fighting back before any peace can be achieved is a ridiculous argument. What if the United States government, right after the Civil War, said "we will only end slavery when there have been zero rebellions for a period of 1 year." Silly. People will fight to be free. The always have, and they always will.
Israel needs to act like a mature person and stop the fight they started.
Of course, it's not that simple. Nothing in the Middle East is. But while I support Israeli statehood, they have been behaving criminally. Calling Israel a democratic nation today is like calling the US of 1820 a democracy. It may be written down, but it is not applied in any way equally. [/quote]
No, it is not that simple. Who attacked who in 1967? Isreal is suppossed to give back land they win in wars where they are the ones initially attacked? In that case what discourages Isreal from being attacked again?
QUOTE(Ultimatejoe @ Feb 26 2003, 12:44 AM)
Most african-americans would dispute that they enjoy equal rights.
Is Israel a democracy? Yes. Are illegal aliens allowed to vote in the U.S.? Some of them have been living in your country for decades and they don't enjoy citizenship.
Is Israel a democracy? Yes. Are illegal aliens allowed to vote in the U.S.? Some of them have been living in your country for decades and they don't enjoy citizenship.
There are a lot of African-Americans who wish to sit on their *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** and blame whitey for their problems.
QUOTE(Eeyore @ Feb 25 2003, 05:50 PM)
Here is an example of discrimination in Israel against non-Jewish citizens.
a party platform that challenges the Jewish character of the state, that for example calls for full and complete equality between Jews and Arabs in a state for all its citizens, can be disqualified, as lists have been in the past
Link
This pro-palestinian site points out many types of discrimination in the Israeli system. Is this really democracy or is a form of social control by one specific part of the population that guarantees Jewish supremacy.
Isn't this the stuff that MLK jr. fought against?
a party platform that challenges the Jewish character of the state, that for example calls for full and complete equality between Jews and Arabs in a state for all its citizens, can be disqualified, as lists have been in the past
Link
This pro-palestinian site points out many types of discrimination in the Israeli system. Is this really democracy or is a form of social control by one specific part of the population that guarantees Jewish supremacy.
Isn't this the stuff that MLK jr. fought against?
Please review the topic (above) and be constructive in your posts.
I'm less concerned about Israel's internal problems and occupation policies than I am about the fact that we are subsidizing them.
Why? Outside of supporting their simple right to exist why are the US tax payers required at 3 billion a year to pony up tribute to a country that's violating our equality tradition and pursuing disastrous occupation policies that are inspiring 9/11 counterattacks?
Israel has everybody over a barrel now with its 200+ nuclear missiles subsidized by us and poised to take out the entire ME if they get paranoid.
Way to go tax payers. Way to go voters.
Why? Outside of supporting their simple right to exist why are the US tax payers required at 3 billion a year to pony up tribute to a country that's violating our equality tradition and pursuing disastrous occupation policies that are inspiring 9/11 counterattacks?
Israel has everybody over a barrel now with its 200+ nuclear missiles subsidized by us and poised to take out the entire ME if they get paranoid.
Way to go tax payers. Way to go voters.
Considering how much America supports all sorts of countries who aren't even close to democratic, or at least egalitarian in their politics I think that is a poor litmus test for U.S. aid don't you?
The answer to the question is: no. Isreal is not a democracy due to the second class status of non-Jews.
I believe this question highlights the main problem in that section of the world. Religious states do not work. Locating a religious state in the part of the world treasured by multiple religions is asking for trouble. Having a second religious state, the good old separate but equal argument, will not solve the problem. There is no need for a Jewish state and the Unitied States should be expecting Isreal to end their discriminatory laws.
I believe this question highlights the main problem in that section of the world. Religious states do not work. Locating a religious state in the part of the world treasured by multiple religions is asking for trouble. Having a second religious state, the good old separate but equal argument, will not solve the problem. There is no need for a Jewish state and the Unitied States should be expecting Isreal to end their discriminatory laws.
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