I've been seeing many newspaper articles with journalists and politicians all over the globe, including Mr. Bush, condemning the video of Saddam's execution and the people who taunted Saddam. I personally think that the World is overreacting to Saddam's execution footage. Moreover, Saddam Hussein had the execution coming to him. After all, it's not like Saddam Hussein was a good person. After seeing the video, I think Saddam Hussein was treated far more humanely than he treated his victims.

Is it OK to videotape executions of despicable tyrants?
Is it OK for the executioner to taunt the condemned man?

Is it OK to videotape executions of despicable tyrants?

Yes. Whats to debate? In fact it ought to be standard operating procedure when ridding oneself of such vermin.


Is it OK for the executioner to taunt the condemned man?

Here is a man who had his victims fed into shredders, alive. Who had women raped to death, over the course of days, if not weeks. Who gassed men, women and children with complete indifference. Who took children hostage and used them for his own personal human shield, whilst his own propaganda machine filmed the event for global consumption.

And I'm supposed to feel bad because his own people 'taunted' him at his end? No, no and again no. He got less than he deserved. I do not extend any courtesy or respect to tyrants, kings or any other mass murdering politicians.

And yes I would put GW Bush on trial too if I had my way, even were it just a investigation into how he has conducted himself. Far too many political leaders are allowed to get away with corruption, murder and war mongering. It ought to be a self evident truth that any leader who engaged in war, no matter what the reason, be afterwards held to a very public scrutiny and account. Only the innocent ought have nothing to fear.

Is it OK to videotape executions of despicable tyrants?

Sure, we show videos of police shooting all types of people, why not saddam getting hung.

Is it OK for the executioner to taunt the condemned man?

Don’t really care giving what he has done to people, save the chants I guess were actually of all things sectarian

Is it OK to videotape executions of despicable tyrants?

I think it was important to have a video record of the execution to verify that it occurred.

"OK" is an interesting term in this context. Apparently it was not "ok" by those who were executing the dictator.

Publishing the video on the Internet was done, whether it was "ok" or not. It is newsworthy, but then so were the videos of terrorists decapitating hostages. Does recording violence toward a human being suddenly become acceptable when the person it is happening to is a bad guy? If you think it is, then there is really nothing I can say to change your mind.

Is it OK for the executioner to taunt the condemned man?

Apparently in that culture it is. But aside from recording the execution of Saddam Hussein, the record of the way he was treated speaks volumes about those performing the execution and their attitudes. It shows the world that there doesn't seem to be much difference in the behavior and mindset of those in control acting at the behest of the new "democratic" government.

It makes them all seem like a bunch of barbarians.

Of course you are not supposed to feel sorry for Saddam Hussein.

But, personally, I feel sorry for the Iraqi people and the rule of law in Iraq. That grainy footage, taken from a cell phone, was a brutal condemnation of our occupation, and an apacolyptic omen towards what lies ahead for Iraq.

The entire world, the 'Muslim street' included, just witnessed something far more disastrous than any car bomb detonated to date. They witnessed, not for the first time, a hypocritical United States alluding to high-minded values, while quietly endorsing the opposite.

Remember the Eichmann trial? Now there's a man who deserved to die. Him and Saddam both, throw them to the hounds. But what is truly beautiful, and I mean that in the highest sense of the word, about the Eichmann trial is that image of that little, meek man, a relic from 12 years of total war and continental holocaust, sitting behind a clean plate of glass in a sterile room full of professional suits, lawyers, judges, historians, war experts. That trial hinted towards better days for the rule of law, and Eichmann's hanging, shrouded in secrecy and conducted in a mostly empty room, provided no public image to damper than perception. He got the reasoned, dignified judgement and professional treatment he denied so many of his victims.

But For Saddam: His trial was theatrical, the verdict flawed, the sentence rushed. Judges had to be replaced. Shia Loyalties, again and again, corrupted the procedure. When Saddam Hussein would routinely shout, "this trial has no legitimacy," one almost gets the feeling that for once, he was in the right.

And then came the hanging.

Even if his execution wasn't planned and, well, executed, by the United States, it was planned and executed by our 'allies' in the Iraqi government, and enabled by our invasion and continuing presence there. And we, the occupying power, certainly didn't stop it. So, even if all the Pentagon officials lined up and condemned what we saw in grainy cell phone footage last week, the most powerful, supposedly most noble, Jeffersonian nation on earth -- Ronald Reagan's 'shining city on a hill' -- just put the noose in the hands of a bunch of ski-masked hoodlums for the world to see.

Saddam Hussein died with the same lack of dignity he denied his victims.

So I feel miserable. Not for Saddam Hussein, I don't care if he lost his life to a garbage disposal mechanism. But I feel disgusted by what will happen now that this is the example being set in world affairs.


At this point in this dark decade, I am beyond wildly disgusted by this so-called 'American' government and the example we've set. In the end I'm sure we will be the victim of this example we've set.

Can I just say firstly, he was not hung, he was hanged.

I know, I know, silly semantic thing, but its one of my pet peeves. That and the constant misuse of 'decimate'.


Secondly, I'm not sure if this thread is debating his death or the taping of his death. I assume the latter, as there is already a thread for the former.

Well, regardless of the morality of it, taping his death is strictly against the geneva convention. That fact is known to the US and Iraq forces, which is why filming was illegal and the person who made the film was arrested.

As for the taunting and telling, I can't answer that. I oppose the death penalty, and it is diffuclt for me to argue what level of decorum should be observed when killing somebody. Even Bush Jr said he would have done the execution in a more dignified manner.

I do agree with DYT, I think it would have been far better for the country if they had seen the man executed by a state in a dignified manner, as opposed to people acting at the last moments like a lynch mob with a rope and a horse.

They just can't win can they!

The US presence in Iraq has brought low one of the greatest criminals of our age and all they get is flak for it. What the Americans have given the Iraqi's is the greatest gift any people can ever bestow upon another. The right to decide for themselves. I'm not an Iraqi, but if I were, I'd thank GW Bush from the bottom of my heart. No matter what his motives were, the bottom line is, Iraq is freed from its tyrant dictator and what is happening in Iraq today is what all nations must face. The pains of birth. Was there ever any nation which was not born from war and death? Off hand, I can't think of any.

What the Iraqi's witnessed is justice. Justice for a murderer the scale and severity of who'se crimes had no redeming features, whose spawn wallowed in the blood of innocent people and who'se many cronies preyed upon an entire nation of victims.

What ever follows Saddam Hussein will have its own burdens and flaws to explain, but none of that changes the fact that Saddam Hussein deserved no fair trial for, unlike Eichmann, he was already known to be guilty. There was no possibility of his being innocent, of being mistaken for some one else. There were no extenuating circumstances. No purpose served in pretending his end should be some exersize in noble hypocrisy to make people feel better.

Better to see the degrading and humiliating end that such tyranny deserves.


Did he? Was there any doubt Eichmann was gong to die for what he did? What are suits, polished glass and a sterile room of professionals if not a deception meant to hide the truth of what is going on? These are mere trappings meant to help the people feel less guilty about killing a human being. There is nothing beautiful about it. It is a dirty job that necessity forces upon us.

Saddam Hussein suffered some slight humiliation at the hands of his executioners, and yet he came through the ordeal with his pride intact. The same cannot be said for Eichmann who begged for mercy and was denied by Itzhak Ben-Zvi, nor for the hundreds of thousands of people murdered by Saddam Hussein. Where was their dignity as they were raped and tortured til their spirits left their broken bodies. What noble end did he give mothers and fathers who were forced to watch their children being murdered?

No. Saddam Hussein deserved to die in great pain and horror and all the anti Bush hatred in the world doesn't change that. He should have been made to feel the hot irons, electric probes and terror of sexual murder on his own body. The millions of hours of horrors he inflicted on his victims will never weigh on his mind, never come back to burn his soul now. He got off far too lightly.

And I wouldn't cry for the Iraqi's if I were you. They seem to understand the reality of life and death far better than those who lament Saddam's execution and complain about the absence of a 'fair trial', as if the trial of such a man could ever have any other outcome than death. Fair doesn't play into it. As if the man could ever have been found innocent in a 'fair' trial!

Moif is absolutely right that Saddam Hussein got off too lightly. Saddam Hussein didn't have to face a jeering mob when he got executed.

When Ted Bundy got executed in 1989, thousands of young kids gathered outside the Florida prison and chanted "Burn Bundy Burn!" so that Ted Bundy would know loud and clear what the public thought about him. I think the same type of thing should have happened with Saddam Hussein. And in Jeffrey Dahmer's case, there's true justice. An angry thug beat Jeffrey Dahmer to death in his jail cell.

Is it OK to videotape executions of despicable tyrants?
Is it OK for the executioner to taunt the condemned man?

I can see the reasoning that says that the videotaping was necessary because otherwise people might not have believed it had taken place. I can understand the logic that says Saddam was responsible for executions far worse than the one he was subjected to, so a few taunts don't much matter.

The trouble is, I don't really agree with either of these positions.

What kind of people have we become when we have allowed the agenda of what is right and what is wrong, and in between those two, what is acceptable, to be set by murderous thugs who saw off the heads of innocent hostages in front of a video camera and then post the footage on the internet?

That, because Daniel Pearl and a host of others could be executed on TV, or that because Arabs and the wider Islamic world have a long and current tradition of public brutality (beheadings in football stadia, stonings, et cetera ad nauseam), we in the West can both absolve ourselves of responsibility and look on with smug approval when they do the same thing, yet again, with someone we don't like.

Whether we like or dislike Saddam Hussein is immaterial. Whether we approve or disapprove (as I do) of capital punishment is immaterial - an Iraqi court charged him under Iraqi laws - notably, under Iraqi laws that were extant under Saddam's own regime, not ones that were cobbled together retrospectively after his downfall, so at least a few brownie points to the current Iraqi government - and applied the prescribed Iraqi punishment, which in this case was death by hanging.

But if the measure of civilisation is how a society treats its prisoners, how it treats its condemned prisoners at the point of execution has to be a key component of that, I don't think that New & Improved Iraq comes across as a very pleasant place, or to have a government to be especially proud of.

More than that, I don't think that those of us in the West who are blase about it speak particularly highly for any superiority of free western-style democracy that we are supposedly fighting to demonstrate in this "War on Terror" thing.

I've said repeatedly all along - how we react to tyrrany or terror should not be measured on "well, they did it first, so it's ok if we do it too" because that just makes us as bad as they are - WE ARE WHAT WE DO. There is nothing intrinsically superior in being American, British, Danish or whatever compated to being Muslim, Iraqi, North Korean. We are superior to terrorist or murderers only to the point where we commit terrorism or murder - once we do that, even once, we are as worthy of condemnation as they are.

If we are superior at all, it's because we do some things (and don't do so me others), not just because of where we were born, where we live, which god we worship or what colour our skin is.

Right at the start of the war, a British officer gave a speech to this effect that George W Bush put a copy of onto the wall of the Oval Office, since which time everyone seems to have slipped down into the mire.

So no, it is NOT ok to videotape executions, particularly not on a mobile phone as some kind of grisly personal souvenir; whoever made the film of the actual execution will have been able to see the "official" cameras, lights, etc, up on the scaffold right next to Saddam, so will have known the event was being filmed. Unless they were an insider, they will not have known at that moment that the full execution would not be shown on the official tape, so their motivation cannot have been anything noble like "wanting to document the full truth" or any of the convoluted arguments sympathetic journalists have attempted to cobble together since then.

And no, it is not OK to taunt the condemned. The point of treating the condemned with some degree of respect and dignity is not that they[i/] deserve it, but that [i]we are better people than they are, who denied their victims any dignity or respect. And if we don't believe that the people executed are "worse" and the people doing the executing are "better" in some way, why execute them at all?

Executions are not entertainment (Any more. Or do I mean "yet"? ).

Well, it appears this is another blunder of monumental proportions. I thought it would blow over, but I don't think it will.

New Year's Eve, I was talking with some friends at a party, and the consensus was Saddam ended up looking like the good guy and he went out with unquestioned bravery. To be clear, nobody likes him and the sound of Saddam's neck breaking is music to most people's ears. But in his final moments, he stood defiant, did not whimper, and as much as it sucks, he died with dignity.

Then I read this this morning and see this may be a bigger problem. He's now a martyr and we're the idiots. And I don't believe this slow moving freight train has gotten up to speed yet. I hope I'm wrong.

The bigger underlying problem was the people in charge of the execution were Sadr's henchmen. So, all this money and lives lost seems to have won the Iran/Iraq war for Iran and won the battle of Bagdad for Sadr. The government is so infiltrated, that they can't even get loyalists to the new government to kill Saddam. How can we get the Iraqis to stand up for themselves when they are loyal to 4 different factions?

Gloss this over if you want, but this is turning out to be very, very bad for several reasons. And it's a clear picture of the "progress" we've made after 5 years.

Is it OK to videotape executions of despicable tyrants?

It would make sense to do so for the sake of having proof that the execution took place. However, to then make the execution available to anyone with a computer and internet access is extremely inappropriate. Swift punishment is good, and once the never-ending trial came to a hault, they took care of business rather quickly. But to turn it into the night's entertainment is what is barbaric.

Personally, I did not, nor will I ever, view the execution. I'm a proponent for the death penalty but it doesn't mean I take any interest or pleasure in seeing the action carried out.




Is it OK for the executioner to taunt the condemned man?
I don't think it is okay. The guy is about to meet his maker, so to speak. A somber demeaner on the part of the executioner is the most appropriate response.

The irony in all of this is that Iraq doesn't seem to be any better off than they were when the madman ruled.

Is it OK to videotape executions of despicable tyrants?

I see many scenarios where this is OK. I also see many where it is not. The question is not whether it should ever be done but rather whether such actions are carried out in a responsible way.

Regards to Saddam's hanging, there were several elements of the execution that were far from an ideal scenario. Having said that, one must remember the context through which it was carried out. It is not reasonable to expect an execution of this nature to maintain the type of standards the US would expect in similar circumstances. Considering this context, the manner in which the execution was carried out should not have been such a surprise.

Is it OK for the executioner to taunt the condemned man?

I would rather not see these types of things take place. But then again, I don't believe hangings are my preference for carrying out the death penalty. Otherwise, I haven't much of an opinion either way. I do get however the sentiment behind the taunting.

Finally, I haven't much of a problem with the reaction throughout the Muslim world. Those who would complain that this execution has done irreparable damage to our image (as well as to Iraq's government) seem to believe, once again, that there is indeed a way to avoid the criticisms and assuage the condemnation of the Muslim world in everything we do. This is pie in the sky thinking. This will never be accomplished much less from a fledgling democracy like Iraq. Cut them slack.

The kind of people we are is an interesting question in this context since it begs the follow up question of how many people in the west have watched these 'War on terror' video's? Almost every one I know has seen at least one such video. In this regard I am in a minority amongst my peers for I have not. I have no desire to see people being killed. Not even Saddam Hussein. I saw a Russian soldier being murdered by a Chechnyan once, many years ago and learned my lesson. What depressed me though did not seem to bother my fellow viewers for I've seen many people, westerners of all nationalities, make light of such video's. Even refer to them with something that strikes me as enthusiasm.

The truth is we have not 'become' any different to whom we were previous to the beheadings of Daniel Pearl and the many other hostages. We are the same as we always were.


Yes, and what have we done?

Did we hang Saddam Hussein? No. Did we try him? No. Did we jeer him as he stood ready to die? No.

Face if Julian, No matter how Saddam Hussein died, it would unleash the very same response. No matter what 'we' do, we are held to account to a scale that goes far beyond any condemnation levelled against those who actually carry out these insults and atrocities. Those 'poor, starving subjects of our imperialist reign'.

I once read a right wing blogger's observation that only right wingers are held to account. He based this on the observation that Americans were constantly under fire for dealing with left wing dictators, whilst those same dictators and the many crimes they committed were ignored. A generalization to be sure, but one with a grain of truth at the core. There is a general hypocrisy on the left surrounding the USA and its actions, one that would go to any lengths, however obviously absurd, to attack Americans. It seems to me that even many Americans do this. You seem to be doing it here, though your gracious enough to cast a wider net in blaming 'us' for their actions.

Its as if the Iraqi's are wholly devoid of any cognitive reasoning. As if 'we' are expected to do all their thinking for them and take responsibility for all their screw ups. Saddam Hussein was one of the worst criminals of his time and yet, if the Bush hating mob were to be believed, his crimes were really because of the CIA and Donald Rumsfeld and the 'barbarity' of his execution is nothing less than a symptom of American imperialism and stupidity. It seems all 'we' have to do is to be seen talking to an Arab, or shaiking his hand, and we suddenly become responsible for his actions. Even worse, if we then oppose this Arab's crimes, for what ever reason, we become imperialists 'racists' to boot. 'We' just can't win can we?

Link.

Now, I can agree with, and go along with many left leaning arguments, but the notion that we are 'as bad as they are', because some of us watch their gruesome video's is so patently absurd as to be alienating. If that is how you feel about 'us', then I suggest there is no longer any 'us' left. 'We' have nothing in common. 'Our' entire civilization has been reduced to a cliché regarding dead white males and a mountain of post imperialist guilt and whilst 'we' wallow in the remains of 'our civilisation', the enemy grows in strength amongst us.

Also, there is no basis for comparing Americans, Brits or Danes to Muslims since the former are nationalities and not subject to any monopoly of ideology, as the latter are. I am under no divine obligation to take your side in a debate. I must not bow down to any deity nor submit to superstitious holy will.

I am a free human being.


Whats with the if? Don't you believe in your own culture and its civilisation? ...and if not, then what do you believe in Julian?

Are you not free? Did any one force you to watch Saddam Hussein's execution video?

In the other thread I said the hanging of Saddam Hussein was about revenge and had nothing to do with justice. To the Western mindset the filming of his death and the mocking he endured prior to it may seem tasteless and unseemly, but if this was a case of Iraqis settling up scores, it should not come as a total surprise.

That said, I don't believe it is "OK" to videotape any execution, no matter how "despicable" the condemned is or how much they might have deserved it. Civilized people who deserve the title do not view death as entertainment. There is nothing fun about watching a man have his neck broken.

Additionally, when you put this kind of exploitative pornography on the air, one never knows who or how it may effect.

HOUSTON -- Police and family members said a 10-year-old boy who died by hanging himself from a bunk bed was apparently mimicking the execution of former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein.

Sergio Pelico was found dead Sunday in his apartment bedroom in the Houston-area city of Webster, said Webster police Lt. Tom Claunch. Pelico's mother told police he had previously watched a news report on Saddam's death.

"It appears to be accidental," Claunch said. "Our gut reaction is that he was experimenting."

link

There are a lot of people experimenting with the hanging of Saddam Hussein. Some will use the death of this truly wretched man as an pretext for death and slaughter. Others will pretend it indicates the system worked and a new day has dawned in Iraq.

There's just one less bad guy in the world. The conditions that created him still exist.

What the 10 year old boy did was simple against common sense, even for his age. If the Saddam video was not aired, the Christian Right would have blamed something else for his suicide. Many years ago, the Christian Right were blaming Dungeons and Dragons and Rock music for a string of suicides that happened in Plano, TX.

I saw a government hang a man. They jeered, insulted and laughed. I knew then that the government was not the one we have been aquainted with by our media. I am of the opinion that there was once a ruthless, murderous gang controlling Iraq. Now they are gone, the competing ruthless, murderous gang is in power. Only the team colors change.

What really disturbs me is that I had no idea that the current Iraq government was so bad. Our network and cable tv "news" shows had me believing that they were people of intergrity. Then somebody snook out a cell-phone video and I see the truth. Something is happening in Iraq. Our media "reports" what is happening there. I despair that never the twain shall meet.