ok, I watch a lot of different things on TV (news, music, sports, so on). One of the main stories in sports the last couple days is about Tonis Smith. Toni Smith plays college basketball and all season she has turned her back to the American flag during the pledge of allegiance. This wasn't a story when she did it in December or November. A veteran came onto the court in a game recently toting a flag and he got in her face because of her views. She sites her reasons to be because of how this country was founded and the current state of the nation. "The rich get richer and the poor get poorer".

I personally refused to stand up during the pledge in high school. My reasons were different than hers but still it stands I chose not to face it.

My understanding is that what makes this country great is diversity. Diversity of religion, culture, ideals, and views.

Yes I live in this country and I love doing so, but no country is perfect and I, just like everyone, has the right to free speech.

the general view I got from people's reactions was disgust. i can't believe that this would be the response. So what do you think?

I wasn't disgusted or offended by Toni Smith's reaction at all. It is yet another form of non-violent protest, and it is protected by the first amendment.

She has a perfect right to face away from the flag. Since she seems to be so politically attuned, I hope that she holds the same affection for diversity and dissent when someone else expresses disrespect at something she holds dear. That's the problem I've encountered, the line of 'my diversity is OK, but yours is hate_______(fill in the blank).

Why is it that the same people who want to take advantage of their rights take it out on the symbol that gives it to them?

I think if someone has the right to attack the very symbol that gives them that right, I should have the right to defend it using any and all means.

People do this crap because it's cowardly and political. See how much they'd do this if catching a .357 slug between the eyes was a legal means of defense of that flag.

This type of protest is political but it is not cowardly. This behavior takes great bravery of demonstrating unpopular beliefs before a large group of people. I am glad I live in a country where people cannot commit murder in the name of defending a symbol. (at least not without punishment)

If someone held up a sign that said "Your popular belief sucks!", that would be one thing. But in my opinion, this type of action is an all or nothing action. There is nothing that discerns the sacrifices made by others from the crappy tax breaks it represents as well.

Obviously, I'm being facetious in my example of reprisal. But my point is still the same. If you don't like something, stand up and tell somebody what you don't like. Don't hide behind the protection people have died for so you throw something at the wall and see what sticks.

I'm sorry to disagree, but it IS cowardly. It takes bravery to become involved in the process in an attempt to right a perceived wrong.

I could be wrong, but I think we're something like 0 fer 225 years in changing policy by telling everyone in America to go you-know-where. And that's basically what disrespecting our flag does.

It is merely a symbol. Would you rather they show their dissent against a live body or would you rather they not show dissent at all? This country was founded on dissent. Voicing discontent with the government is as American as the flag itself.

I don't always agree with Goverenor Bush, I don't support war in Iraq, and I support the First ammendment. This form of protest is stupid. Turning your back on the flag of your country is wrong. Can't you support your country and be against its policies? I think she should keep turning away from the flag if that is what she wants but she is sending a message that she thinks the United States is evil. I can't imagine an American who doesn't think the American contribution to the world has been noble and positive. If she wants to dissent maybe she should find a different way.

I agree. It is "only" a symbol. But it is not a symbol of whatever you want it to be at any given time without being a symbol of everything else it is.

As far as freedom of dissent, that's what the flag is a symbol of. But it is also a symbol of all of our other rights, the sacrifices our fellow man has made to preserve it, and the values we represent.

Personally, I have a big problem with this invasion and occupation in Iraq. And I'm very grateful to be able to say it without reprisal. But if I turn my back on the flag, I turn my back on EVERYTHING it represents. And that's the problem I have. It's not selective because a person says so. It's all inclusive.

If a person doesn't like something, let the country know. But let them know what you don't like.

If the flag is simply a "mere symbol", why turn your back on it or give it the time of day? The very act of rejecting our flag gives it's value weight.

you want to talk about taking it for everything it is, This is the same flag that oppressed blacks and the same flag that currently oppresses gays. How can you possibly look at this flag for all that it is and has been. I'm sorry but it is just a flag I don't care what you do to it, urinate on it, burn it whatever, IT'S FABRIC. If i disagree with the parts of the flag should I stand in praise of it, NO I shouldn't. And I never mentioned that it was a form of protest. When I refused to stand it wasn't in protest I wasn't making a statement or trying to change the world, I "simply" refused to acknowledge the pledge as something that I believe in. How many children in high school do you really think stand up for the reasons that others do? The mention of rich and poor was mearly a snipit of her statement.



Even when your country says that those things you would od are illegal.



When my form of protest is turning around and your's is verbally assaulting me I think it's a bit different.



How is this? I don't see how you would take that leap. I don't think this when I see it. I merely see someone who disagrees with a part of it.

Dayton rocker:


That's a silly argument. If that's true, then when you show respect for the flag, you are endorsing everything it represents. It is certainly not all inclusive. If you want an "all or nothing" argument, how about this: America either allows dissent and freedom of expression... or it doesn't.

Someone burns, tramples, jumps on, or turns their back on the flag. Are they hurting someone? Are they giving intelligence to an enemy nation? Are they infringing on other peoples' rights? No, no, and no.

Let's put a face to the name:

Toni Smith

Gutsy young woman. The veteran toting the flag ought to get a few lessons in freedom from her.

This country was founded with the notion that some of its population was only worth 3/5ths of a person. That's a fact.

The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. That sure seems to be true!

Our national anthem is a war song.

Manifest Destiny created this country to the detriment of other societies.

We are about to wage war to adust the ME to our liking (as many argue).

Gutsy young woman. I was once a gutsy young man--or was I just angry? And why? Was it Vietnam, a corrupt government, the good old boy system, or what?

Television. I think it was television.

Yes, the flag is only a symbol and a fabric one at that. If someone wants to burn or urinate on the flag, then go right ahead, I think they'll look like a buffoon while doing it. I don't try and impose my beliefs on anybody, so my opinion the flag is just that, mine. But let's not forget that her right to not show any respect for the flag is just as valid as someone else's right to express their disrespect for her actions. I'm not talking about verbal or physical harassment, but merely opinions such as some expressed here.

Just as a side note, if looking upon the flag as a unifying symbol, with pride in the ideals that our citizenry stands for, is to be ridiculed, perhaps someone can enlighten me on ways we can come together as a country, as an American family if you will. Isn't that preferable, if at all possible, than to balkanization at the altar of diversity?

I would burn any flag or national symbol if it meant preserving those rights which I believed in. A flag does not give you rights. The country does not give you rights and the law does not even give you rights.

Your rights are yours by birth right! Denmark, America or any other democracy. It doesn't matter, its the people who make up the nation. ALL of them. Not the flag, or the army or the government. Those are the SERVANTS of the people.

I disagree with this girl and her views. But she has my utmost respect for having the courage to demonstrate her beliefs in the face of adversity. Those people who jeered her with the American flag should really ask themelves, is that what the America flag is for? If so, then its not worth any respect anyway.

DTOM, I think there is room for the flag to be both revered and defiled, and I would agree with you that anyone who chooses to defile the flag should be prepared to receive disrespect from those who revere the flag as long as that disrespect doesn't cross the line into other illegal activities such as physical assault.

As far as the flag bringing us together as one big American family is concerned, I would say that nationalism has both positive and negative effects, and I think that our diversity, while it may divide us at times, is also part of our strength. I don't see why we can't have both.

Geez, I've been here two days and already butting heads!

The reason those rights are there, is because 100's of thousands of our fellow Amercians sacrificed their lives to defend those rights. They don't come free.

I could pick a hundred negative things the flag stands for, but compared to the 1000's and 1000's of Americans that fought and died for that flag, they are insignificant.

And yes, they fought for that flag because that flag represents who we are. That's why it's called a flag and that's why it's a "statement" when somebody pi$$es all over it.

Somebody said the flag represented years of slavery, oppression, blah blah blah. But I don't see us flying the confederate flag over the white house. I don't see us flying the Japanese or German flags over the white house. For all our imperfections, we're still the best game in town.

I'm sorry, but disrespecting our flag is cowardly. The thousands of lives lost in defending that flag can't come back to voice their opposition. You may say it's only a symbol. If so, why burn it or turn your back on it if it doesn't really mean anything? It may not mean anything to you, but it means a lot to most of us.

If someone who thinks we suck wants to be brave, move to a better country. Don't hide behind what others have died for.

I disagree that it is cowardly, but even if it is, that has nothing whatsoever to do with its legality or whether it is a right of expression.

It is only a symbol. That's what it is. The flag is not America. And why does a person who burns the flag necessarily think we "suck?" You don't know WHAT their reasons might be, I reckon...

And forget that completely illogical argument about "love it or leave it." That's a bunch of hooey. It's fascist, and totally unAmerican. If you think America should only allow people who think like you to live here, then the first thing you'll need to do is toss out the constitution.

Respectfully, this is more "give me something for nothing" rhetoric.

The simple act of publically disrespecting our flag elevates it to something higher than a piece of fabric. You want all the protection and rights America has to afford you, but don't want to support it. You want to excercise your "right" to protest at the expense of evdryone around you. (note: I don't mean YOU specifically)

If a person has a beef with policy, the should and they do have every right to protest and voice their opinion. I don't think anybody except the most narrow minded would dispute that. My point of view has nothing to do with wanting people to be what I term, "sheople". Dissent is critical for us to know the correct direction for this country.

But burning or disrespecting the flag is a selfish act that serves no purpose other than get yourself noticed and make a lot of people mad.

I think it should be illegal. I can't stand on a stage and incite a riot even when I'm excersizing my right to free speech. I would go to jail.

Nationalism is a religion and giving praise to a flag is idolatry. By this association humans are not given rights by a divine power. Nor does the flag give rights, but for which that flag stands for is what gives and protects our rights. At the root level this country is a democracy where every citizen subscribes to an undivided philosophy that we all be treated equal and it is the duty of every individual to uphold that. To turn your back on the flag is not an act of desecration nor is it an insult to the flag. Toni Smith still acknowledged the presence of the flag, yet instead of genuflecting a symbol that reflects the status of the nation Toni showed discontent for what the flag is currently representing. This is a peaceful demonstration that warrants no insult. A flag can not perceive insult, that is a human perception. Any insult derived from this display of non-conformity is placed upon those who are driven by fear, fear of those that are willing to challenge the system in a context that suggests that this country has lost its focus on the most important contract to the people. By turning her back on the flag does not deprive us of our rights, neither does it deprive her own rights. This is her right and it is each and every individual's duty to protect that right. Some of you may not like that, but to assure equality for everyone all prejudices have to stop at the tip of your nose.

It just occurred to me while reviewing our opinions here that we start every sports event with the National Anthem.

But we never start anything else that way.

Why are sporting events and patriotism equated? Why don't symphonies start out with the Anthem? Broadway plays?

Is Toni Smith showing disrespect to the flag or to our automaton ways of thinking? I suspect the latter.

Dayton Rocker



Those people who died to defend, or build America did so in their time. This is our time, and whilst I can honour their sacrifice, my doing so will not garantee that it was a sacrifice well made.

Only action and determination will see to that.

As a Dane, of course my perspective is looking more at the sacrifice made by Americans in defence of a democratic Europe, rather than at the founding Americans themselves, but I believe the underlying principle is the same. It is only by a constant awareness of what we are doing, and what it means to the rest of the world, that we can measure the success of our nations.

If a nation is wealthy and its people prosper, then it is a success. But if that success is paid for by the exploitation of other nations and peoples, then it is an abject failure. Since the flag is the symbol of the nation, then by turning your back on your flag, you are making a bonafide, non violent statement, fully in accord with your rights and beliefs.

To say that this is disrespecting those who died to give you those rights, is in my opinion totally flawed. This is why they gave us those rights in the first place, so that if our convictions so demanded it, we could demonstrate against our own nations.

To refuse to do so is truly to disrespect their sacrifice.

I think she should wait in the locker room until the National Anthem is completed. Then enter the Stadium. I see her actions as grandstanding and as a cry for attention.
It worked!

The people in the stands who were waving flags and chanting "U-S-A" and "Leave our country." have the same right to protest her actions as she has to protest the American Flag.

I haven’t heard anything about the Veteran who confronted Toni Smith, not knowing his circumstances it is impossible to say how much he knows about Freedom. However if he perhaps laid in a fox hole thinking about family and loved ones back home and wondering if he will ever see them again, all for the American Flag I bet he knows about Freedom.
I think a person who has fought in a war would know more about Freedom than Toni Smith or most of us will ever know. He certainly would know more about preserving Freedom and the actual cost of preserving Freedom. Regardless of which conflict he served in, his love for the American flag isn’t diminished.

Toni Smith was quoted saying that she wants “Respect” for her rights; she needs to realize that some find her actions to be disrespectful to them. Regardless of the fact that she is has the right to do so.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0221-07.htm

“Smith has stood firm in the face of her detractors. In her statement, she wrote, "It is my right as an American to stand for my beliefs the way others have done against me. ... Patriotism can be shown in many ways, but those who choose to do so by saluting the flag should recognize that the American flag stands for individuality and freedom. Therefore, any true patriot must acknowledge and respect my right to be different."”

I don’t agree. We must allow Toni Smith’s protest, but as to acknowledging or respecting her for doing so, we have no obligation. I think she should use a more constructive means of protest, arranging a protest on campus or in town, contacting her representatives or voting in the next election.

I have read "For some time now, the inequalities that are embedded into the American system have bothered me," Smith wrote. "As they are becoming progressively worse and it is clear that the government's priorities are not on bettering the quality of life for all of its people, but rather on expanding its own power, I cannot, in good conscience, salute the flag.". This sounds similar to many statements that have been made by students, students who have yet to leave school and join the real world were things aren’t as simple as they seem to be. It is real easy to look at America and see ways that it isn’t perfect but rather than just complain I would like to hear what changes Toni Smith proposes. I would think that she would take the opportunity, with all of the press she is getting, to expound on her ideas.

Regardless of her right to turn her back to the flag, doing so could be seen as very offensive or disrespectful to anyone who has went to war for the American flag or lost love ones in any conflicts regardless if the conflicts were popular or not. Toni Smith needs to realize this.

Daytona Rocker-
Do I condone her using her freedoms to disrespect the flag, no, however, she does have the right to, and it is better then doing something violent.

CP

She is just being childish. The flag is just a symbol of Ameica not George W. Bush. Did she salute the flag back in flag mania after 9/11 ?

I haven't seen anything to indicate that her reasons for turning her back on the flag are childish. What has she said that makes you conclude that her act is childish. From all of the negative attention and national debate she has triggered I sure hope she has some heartfelt convictions at the bottom of this demonstration.

I finally saw news coverage today on this and I hope the rest of you have. Listen to her speak and hear the words she is saying. She is a very well-spoken individual that has respect for veterans. But you can't compare her protest to that of other's. People telling her to leave the US, while she's playing a game of basketball is unacceptable, just like it would be for you to scream those things at someone in any case. Her actions aren't hurting anyone, you haven't heard her say anything that could be construed as anti-american.



No you don't I agree, but no one ever has an obligation to respect anyone for what they have done.

and I don't agree that a soldier would have more of an understanding of freedom, they would like it's been said have an understanding of what it takes to get that freedom, or atleast the violent side of it.

Okay if she thinks everything America does and everything America stands for is wrong or if she thinks not facing the flag isn't a big deal then she isn't childish. You don't turn away from your flag unless you think the country has gotten so bad you don't want to live in it anymore.

I disagree. Have you ever turned you're back? I'm guessing you haven't I have and it wasn't because I hated living here. I disagreed with "something" that was stressed in the pledge.



Did you hear her say this, because I haven't. I must stress again stop making judgements on her and her stance until you hear her words.

There have been several digressions from Toni Smith here ("you can't," as Limpubus put it, "compare her protest to that of others"). For those who wish to discuss disrespect for the flag in general, might I recommend the Flag Burning thread. Many of the arguments here are merely reiterating arguments there...

I have not seen any of the coverage of Ms. Smith nor heard her speak, but this is from her team profile (in the link provided by AuthorMusician):

This does not strike me as someone who is seeking personal attention so much as demonstrating her beliefs publicly. She has a public forum and she is using it - this has been much debated in the Celebrity Political Views thread.

I don't have much to add except that, by the sound of it, I agree with those who feel that this is one very brave young woman indeed.

The flag is a symbol of this country. Not of the party in office. Not of its current policies. It is a symbol of this nation.

Turn your back on the flag and you turn your back on the country.

Turn your back on your country and you are not an American.

This kind of fascist statement poses way more danger to American culture than any 100,000 flag-burners. If your statement in any way reflected reality, Mr. Middle, I would happily comply, and consider myself no longer an American.
Cheers

I took the liberty of highlighting my personal favorite.

The American Flag is meticulously folded 13 times...heres why

Fold #1--is the symbol of life

2nd.fold is a symbol of our belief in eternal life

3rd.fold is made in honor and rememberence of the veterans departing our ranks who gave a portion of there lives for the defense of our country to attain peace throughout the world.

4th.fold-represents our weaker nature,for as American citizens trusting in God,it is to him we turn in times of peace as well as in times of war for his divine guidence.

5th.fold-is a tribute to our country,for in the words of Stephen Decatur,"Our Country,in dealing with other countries,may she always be right; but it is still our country.right or wrong.

6th fold-is for where our hearts lie. It is with our heart that we "pledge allegence to the flag of the United States of America,"

7th.fold--is a tribute to our Armed Forces,for it is through the Armed Forces that we protect our Country and our flag against all enemies,wether they be found within or without the boundries of our republic.

8th.fold--is a tribute to the one who entered into the valley of the shadow of death.that we might see the light of day.

9th fold--is a tribute to womanhood,and Mothers.
For it has been through their faith,their love,loyalty and devotion that the character of men and women who have made this country great has been molded.

10th fold--is a tribute to the father,for he,too,has given his sons and daughters for the defense of our country since they were first born.

11th fold--represents the lower portion of the seal of King David and King Solomon and glorifies in the Hebrew's eyes,the God of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob.

12th fold--represents an emblem of eternity and glorifies,in the Christians eyes,God the Father,the Son and Holy Spirit.

The 13th fold,or when the flag is completely folded, the stars are uppermost reminding us of our nations motto,"In God We Trust." After the Flag is completely folded and tucked in,it takes on the appearance of a cocked hat,ever reminding us of the soldiers who served under General George Washington, and the Sailors and Marines who served under Captain John Paul Jones,who were followed by there comrades and shipmates in the Armed Forces of the United States, preserving for us the rights,privileges and freedoms we enjoy today


There are some traditions and ways of doing things that have deep meaning. In the future,you'll see flags folded and now you will know why.