At what point is it the patriotic duty of loyal Americans to close ranks and say or do nothing to undermine our troops as we head into war with Iraq?

I believe that time has already come. The fact that we are going to war is evident. Morale is such an important thing to our troops and anything less than our full support for them is dangerous and disloyal. Time magazine had a story about troop morale and one soldier asked, "are they going to spit on us when we come home?"

Anyone who plays a part in causing that brave young man to even consider that possibility while he is putting his life on the line to defend our freedom should be treated as a traitor to the USA.

Those who have spoken out against this war have had their chance. Now is the time for them to stand with all loyal Americans in support of our troops and our country. At the very least, say nothing or else you will be giving aid to the enemy by undermining our own armed forces. And that is treason.

Do you dare to disagree?

Do I dare to disagree? Yes, I do. I think you underestimate the intelligence and emotional maturity of the men and women in our armed forces. They know that dissent regarding policy and disrespect for their service are two differnt things. They know that service is an honorable thing even if the orders they are given seem misguided, so long as those orders fall short of actually being criminal. They know that anyone who spits on them for that is a mere child, undeserving of their attention. In short, they can handle it.

I happen to be among those who believe an invasion of Iraq would be misguided, but I seem to give our soldiers (and sailors, etc.) more credit and respect than you do.

I'm with Platypus here. Musing, what you have presented is one of the most unAmerican ideas I've seen. Can anyone say "Orwell?"

I agree with the above two posts. Our Armed Forces know there will always be a segment of the population that does not support any or some war efforts. It is always hoped that there will never be a return of the Vietnam era treatment of soldiers/sailors/airmen/marines, but servicemen and women are not naive.

There is a distinct difference between speaking and demonstrating against the war, and actually undermining efforts and blatant treason. I don't think there should ever be a moratorium or time limit on dissent. That would indeed be un-American.

Why is that soldier worrying about what we might do? Everyone seems to be defining opinion and support as the same thing.

I am against this occupation, but if the troops get the green light, I'll support them 100%. I want them to have everything they need to do their job, do it well, and most of all, get home safe.

I certainly "dare to disagree."

My patriotic duty as a loyal American encompasses many ideas and one of them is voicing my dissent if I feel that the current policy is negative for this country. There is no time limit on the freedom of speech, and it is possible to support the American troops while voicing discontent toward the current administration. As I see it, it would be non-patriotic to stop voicing dissent before the situation in question has been rectified. I guess we didn't get the same instruction manuals on how to be an American citizen.

OK, I won't say or do anything that would undermine our troops as we head into war with Iraq.

But I'm still going to be critical of the noncombatant who is sending them there. I'm holding GWB responsible if this thing blows up in our faces like Vietnam did.

If this is to be considered treason, then line me up and shoot! The US of A no longer exists.

BTW, my oldest brother served in Vietnam. He came home in 1969 and was not spat upon once. I did protest that war while he was in, and I did send him a hand-written letter every week.

Let's close ranks and pray that either this war is found unnecessary or that it is over quickly with the fewest number of casualties possible, and that GWB is sincere when he says that all he wants is to make the world safer and free the Iraqi people.

The replies so far are focusing on the comment about the soldier asking if he was going to get spit on. We know it is something much broader than just that.

The story contained other examples of soldiers who were anxious about what people were doing and saying at home. When these kids are facing the biggest challenge of their young lives it is wrong to distract them in this way.

It also helps to build the morale of the enemy. Imagine how anti-American rallies in our own cities are being played up to the enemy. It only serves to put more ammo in their guns.

If you are against this war, you have every right to hold that belief. I think its a disloyal act to publicly express that belief as we enter the battle. When the war is over you can then return to your criticism.

Stand proud and be a loyal and patriotic American. Or else maintain your loyalty by remaining silent.

You view them as anti-American, but that is not the purpose of the rallies. The purpose of the rallies is to show dissent against the coming war in Iraq. Not wanting to go to war does not make someone anti-American.



Uh...a little late then, don't you think?



Sounds like the makings of a dictatorship to me. Isn't that exactly one of the reasons why we are contemplating a regime change in Iraq?

I dare to disagree.

first off, how can one be disloyal to something the have no allegiance with. I do not pledge any allegiance to the american government or military, so can not be disloyal. I am a patriot, I pledge my allegiance to the constitution, and consider all that aim to subvert it as enemies of the people(such as bush)

I realize that many people in the military are nothing more then pawns. I protest to keep the young men and women out of unnessecary harms way. sometimes war is nessecary, and as has been pointed out elsewhere, there are far more serious threats to world peace then Saddam.




does the first amendment say "freedom of speech, as long as it approved
by the government" ? no it simply says "freedom of speech"

you can say what you want, as long as it follows the official line, right?

Speaking from experience, the average soldier in theater has no clue, (nor does he/she really care) what public opinion thinks of the war they are fighting. It is a job to them. It's an important job that has real consequences (such as being killed, or making a mistake that will get buddies killed).
Soldiers that are preparing for battle spend little to no time contemplating about what civilians think. There is no U.S.A. Today machine down by the third sand dune on the right where Private Snuffy can tune in to the nation's pulse. Copies of papers do circulate, but they are usually out of date, and well picked over (Sports page is always gone).
However, rumors do abound, and there is an awareness of how right or wrong the general population feels about what you are about to do. This has a very detrimental effect on soldiers who have not yet shipped out. PROTESTS MAKE DEPARTING SOLDIERS FEEL BAD ABOUT WHAT MIGHT POSSIBLY HAPPEN!
Personally, it didn't change one aspect of how I did my job. But, that was me. Had there been a soldier who was more emotionally sensitive in my place, he/she might have felt different, therefore, performed his/her job differently.
It usually becomes moot once you hit the ground. There are now very important things to be done.

After much reflection, I've decided I was painting with too broad a brush when I said protests at this point were treasonous. I had just read the Time article and couldn't get the picture of that kid soldier out of my mind. Here he is on the verge of war to defend his country and he's wondering if those who he is fighting for are going to spit on him if and when he comes home.

I label the protests as un-American because the vast majority of those participating are in fact, un-American. I wasn't misled by the media coverage because I was able to view many of the marches, the entire marches. I was also able to review the role played by the organizers, many of whom are flat-out haters of America and all it represents.

There were many grannys and soccer moms there too, but they were in the minority, in spite of what the networks would have you believe. Those who were sincere in their feelings about this particular policy, this particular war, or ALL war, do not deserve the traitor label. And I apologize to them for having used it.

As for the rest, and you know who you are, please accept my offer to pay your way to Iraq for human shield duty.

Can you substantiate that, using a verifiable source?

No....they'd be un-American if they protested the war on terror/Al-Queda

They are just voicing their opinion about a Iraq because they can!!

Actually, IMO, i think there were more Anti-Bush/American than Anti-Iraq war protesters. The U.S. Communist Party, what's left of the Weather Underground milita, etc

You are almost there, goamerica!

How about: anti-Bush administration foreign policy demonstraters?

MM, I'd suggest the name of this thread be changed to "Time for Americans to close mouths." It fits better. However, even if all war protesters had kept their peeps shut from day one, the way the Bush administration pushed for this war would have fostered doubt in young soldiers' minds.

Are you really serious about paying people's ways to do human shield duty? You might be surprised at the response you get if you are. Better cash in some of those securities

However, I don't think that was your intent. And now I'm wondering if your self-assuredness about this war might be wavering. Do dissenting opinions threaten your resolve?

This whole line of thinking is, I believe, a bit of an insult to the men and women in uniform. The people serving in our armed forces are as diverse as America itself. The military is full of smart people, not-so-smart people, white people, black people, brown people, yellow people, conservatives, liberals, Republicans, Democrats.

It's easy to stereotype those in the military, partly because they are all in similar uniforms, but it's also dangerous. There are many veterans involved in protesting this war, as it was with Vietnam. The spitting on GIs thing, it's more urban legend by now. During the protests of the Vietnam war, it actually only happened a couple of times, by a minority of people. Yet it has grown to become this sort of generally held idea about what protestors were like during the Vietnam era. If anything, anti-war protestors are the greatest supporters of the troops, because they are trying like hell to keep the military, or bring the military out, of harm's way.


By your logic, the pro-lifers should have no right to protest outside clinics. After all, the Supreme Court already decided Abortion was legal. Isn't it time to close ranks and support the health care workers involved?

Very emotional description, I agree. However, the threat that Iraq poses to the US security is very arguable, to say the least. Also, really, who will American soldiers be fighting for? Definitely not for those people who oppose the war. Or is that our new Constitutional right, along with keeping our mouths shut: the right to be “protected” against our will; to be “protected” against anything, even if it does not pose present and clear danger?

I believe it is my duty as the US citizen to speak out and voice my disagreement with the US government policies at any time I choose fit.

By the way, since when is America threatened by freedom of speech?

I was deployed to Saudi Arabia/Iraq for the first gulf war, and LFTHNDTHRDS is right in that soldiers do get print media, although weeks out of date. I felt that we were fighting a just war, and when I saw the protest that closed the Golden Gate Bridge, it angered me. I felt 'how dare they insinuate that we are here to fight for oil'.
The positive feedback we received was wonderful and morale lifting. We received 'Dear Any Serviceman/woman' letters, and some grade school classes would 'adopt' soldiers or entire units. Little things like this made being away from home and in harms way much more bearable.
However, when we received news of protests or opposition, it didn't lower morale or our fighting effectiveness. This may be partly because there was not the level of protest as there is today. I think LFTHNDTHRDS has it right in that deployed troops probably won't be affected by protests, but deploying soldiers might.

No musician, my opinion about the war is not wavering in the face of dissenting opinions. What wavered was the label I threw out there as a blanket assertion for the whole anti-war crowd.

I also accept what a couple guys have said about the protests not having much affect on troops already deployed because they are too busy to give it much thought.

But I do hold firmly to the belief that morale is affected before they go. And that the enemy is also affected. Saddam himself has been quoted as saying he knows that all he has to do is keep delaying because of what he sees in the protests.

I hope for a quick resolution to this war and I hope that we can achieve even a part of what the President is hoping for in terms of a new front for democracy in the Middle East. And most of all, I hope that this war will help build the foundation for a lasting peace.

In this country, your free to think what you will of the war. But I don't see how anyone in good conscience, could think less of the men and women in uniform because of it.

They are following orders. Just like when your boss tells you to do something at work, you do it.

I won't protest the war, but I will protect your right to. I will however, get all up in your face if you start personally attacking the soldiers credibility or charactor, simply because they're there.

--cheers

I've not seen anyone blame the soldiers being sent to give their lives for this idiotic war. Everyone knows it isn't their fault or even their choice.

So you are saying that 71% of the American people are idiotic for supporting an Idiotic war?

Support on Disarming Iraq Militarially

The great part about this country is that everyone is allowed to say what they want. If a liberal was going to concentrate on North Korea and you were against it would you not protest?

CP

I DISAGREE.

At what point is it the patriotic duty of genuinely loyal Americans to stand up and say "NOT IN OUR NAME"?

I believe that time has long since passed - and becomes more urgent hourly. The fact that we are going to war is criminal. Anything less than our full oppostition to this "war" is cataclysmically dangerous and tantamount to treason. Anything less than our full oppostion to the over-privileged, brain-dead coke-head in the White House is cataclysmically dangerous and tantamount to treason. Anything less than our full opposition to the evil, EVIL, EVIL puppet-masters who run this administration is cataclysmically dangerous and tantmount to treason.

Those who have spoken out in favor of this amoral war-mongering have had their chance. Now is the time for them to stand with all truly loyal Americans in support of our troops and our country. At the very least, say nothing - and stop giving aid and support to the serious threat from the enemies within this country and within the regime which occupies the White House.


-------------------------------------------------------------


Now, obviously, I am being a bit over the top here. But I wanted to give you some idea, Middle, of just how offensive many of us found your initial posting here - to see what it's like to be on the receiving end of such a prejudiced diatribe.

There are millions upon millions of patriotic Americans - millions upon millions of people who love this country - who want no part of George W Bush's personal vendetta against Saddam Hussein; who know that the "war" against Iraq (which has been plotted by Bush henchmen for over five years) has nothing whatsoever to do with our "security"; who genuinely, earnestly, devoutly crave some kind of action on the part of the Bush administration which would actually do something real to combat terrorism; who despise the damage that the President and his advisors are doing to the US in terms of our international relations (which could have a seriously destructive impact on the collective future of us all); who are sick to death of an Executive motivated solely by greed and ambition, run by an elite, for that elite; who honor and support our sons and daughters in uniform and do not wish to see their lives wasted in pursuit of a "war" for no reason but the gain of that elite; who have no desire to support an agenda dedicated to world domination at all costs; who hate what this administration has done to our Constitution so far and are deathly afraid of what it's future plans for this country are.

WE are loyal to the United States of America; WE are loyal to the Consitution; WE are loyal to the great potential that this country once had as a positive force in the world; WE are loyal to the ideals of our forefathers; WE are loyal to the men and women who serve our country in the military and to the memory of all those who have given their lives in the cause of freedom and equality, not money and unbridled power. And WE WILL NOT SHUT UP no matter how often you make the demand.

YOU are loyal to a failed businessman with a sense of entitlement, a familial grudge, and a frighteningly autocratic agenda which contradicts just about everything for which this country once stood. That, Mr. Middle, is your choice; making that choice is your privilege. I respect your right to make that choice (however dangerous) and I revere the fact that, in this country, you still have that privilege. But please do not try to imply for one moment that those who are not members of your reckless little fan club are in any way disloyal to this country, the members of its armed forces, or the ideals for which both once stood. We are not. And, unless George W Bush and his manipulators succeed in realizing their truly unAmerican agenda, we never will be. We do not take kindly to those who cannot respect to the fullest our right to disagree with what we see as the destruction of this country and its ideals. And we never will.

Hate us, if you like, Mr. Middle; insult and offend us at every turn, if you must. But do not DARE to question our loyalty, our respect for those in our armed forces, or our love of this country.

Go in peace - but stop abusing the concept of "loyalty".

71% of the American people who participate in Fox news polls? Yes, that is what I'm saying.

[QUOTE=Danya,Feb 28 2003, 06:17 PM]So you are saying that 71% of the American people are idiotic for supporting an Idiotic war?

Support on Disarming Iraq Militarially [/QUOTE]
71% of the American people who participate in Fox news polls? Yes, that is what I'm saying.[/QUOTE]
Zogby International, on the other hand, published a poll on Wednesday which included the following question: "Currently, would you strongly support, somewhat support, somewhat oppose, or strongly oppose a war against Iraq?" Those who 'Strongly support' and 'Somewhat support' totalled 49.9%. Those who 'Somewhat oppose' and 'Strongly oppose' totalled 49.9% - with 1.2% 'Not sure'.

Apart from what this says about The Great Uniter, can you imagine what the results would be like if the Bush administration were not campaigning 24/7 in favor of the war with half their acolytes arguing that those who are not backing the death machine 100% are disloyal Americans? I suspect that the "support" would drop to virtually nothing. That a large number of American people are idiotic, especially when it comes to politics, isn't exactly earth-shattering news. The idiocy of those who get all their political information from Fox News is so self-evident a truth that it should probably be added to the Declaration of Independence.

If only there were such a thing as a motive-detector. We could use it at the next anti-America protest and seperate the wheat from the shaff.

Is your true motive for being here that you hate George Bush?

Is it because you hate America?

Is it because you are a closet-communist?

Is it because you hate any war not started by a democrat?

Did you protest the war in Bosnia? Kosovo? Haiti?

Is it because you think this protest shows that you're anti-establishment and that's like a way cool thing to be?

Is it because you believe Israel was behind 9/11?

There are so many questions that would help get to the bottom of the real reasons for the majority of the people who attend these affairs. Those whose motives are both pure and loyal to America are in the minority.





......in the words of that noble American, Dan Blather, 'can you say something in English for us, anything you'd like....

Nope.

Is it because you hate America?
hell no.

Is it because you are a closet-communist?
I don't think so.


Is it because you hate any war not started by a democrat?I'll let you know when a democrat starts a war like this one.

Did you protest the war in Bosnia? Kosovo? Haiti? nope. Bosnia was about ethnic cleansing...or at least that's what I fell for at the time. I suppose I'd look much more closely now.

Is it because you think this protest shows that you're anti-establishment and that's like a way cool thing to be?I'm already cool...I didn't know it was actually cool to be against the war in Iraq? Wow...I'm even cooler than I thought.

Is it because you believe Israel was behind 9/11? WTF?

There are so many questions that would help get to the bottom of the real reasons for the majority of the people who attend these affairs. Those whose motives are both pure and loyal to America are in the minority.

Let me clear it up for you...I'm against it because it is wrong and makes no sense. Why is that so hard to fathom?

In the words of Danya...Drink Rum and be merry like me.

This thread has gone quite off topic and has been closed.