Although this happened last year this story is now coming to light with very damming evidence(medical and video).

Story



The woman was denied many pleas to be given medical attention. She was held overnight with no medical attention, after being released the next morning she suffered a miscarriage.

Questions to be debated:

1. Do you believe this woman deserves monetary damages for the loss of her unborn baby?

2. If the miscarriage could have been prevented should there be a wrongful death charge?

3. Should the officers involved be fired for their actions/inaction?

The Prosecuting Attorney should seek the death penalty for all officers involved. This is just another example of how the police really don't protect the public. They do far more harm than good. Examples need to be made of these Scum-badges. Monetary compensation is unnecessary, it will not heal the pain of losing a child.

1.)She should be awarded whatever compensation she receives as rewarded by a jury of her peers.

2.)CNN has a handy-dandy map of states that have laws regarding the fetus as a victim. This law is specifically listed as-Mo. Ann. Stat. ' 1.205. If the authorities find that the officers have met the criteria for this punishment, then by all means, itshould be used to punish them for what they did.

3.)I'm not certain what departmental protocol would be in a case like this. I would imagine that officers under any form of investigation are placed on paid or unpaid leave until the facts can be ascertained. This is probably the case now. Should the officers be convicted, I have full confidence that they will be fired and not be able to be officers again. The question is a moot point as officers who are convicted of anything thatrequires prison time, rarely keep their jobs.

1. Do you believe this woman deserves monetary damages for the loss of her unborn baby?

Let's remember that the officers involved in this incident are innocent until proven guilty. The videotaped evidence seems to be pretty damning, but that's for the court to decide. If the officers are held legally responsible for the miscarriage, then monetary damages, and/or criminal penalties, would be appropriate.

2. If the miscarriage could have been prevented should there be a wrongful death charge?

As already said, it depends on the law of the state. The kind of law I would personally support would, first of all, create a crime called something like "terminating a pregnancy against the will of the pregnant woman." Such a crime might either be deliberate or through neglect. Secondly, such a law would make some kind of legal distinction between ending a pregnancy during the early stages, and ending a pregnancy during the late stages.

From the link provided, I would support something like the law of Iowa.



I would also support something like the law of California.



(I would add something like "except when necessary to prevent the death of the pregnant woman, or severe adverse health consequences to the pregnant woman." And, yes, I am trying to find a balance between making the deliberate or neglectful termination of a pregnancy against the will of the pregnancy woman a serious crime, and keeping abortion during the early stages of pregnancy, and during the late stages of pregnancy when absolutely necessary, legal.)

3. Should the officers involved be fired for their actions/inaction?

Again, if found guilty of the miscarriage because of their actions, yes.

Who you gonna call when someone comes creeping around your house? Ghostbusters? Print this statement out and send it to your local authorities and the next time you need their services I’m sure they’ll forget your contempt and put their lives on the line for your own. They do it every day.

It’s a shame that you hold this opinion of possibly the most thankless job in the country. I implore you to take a “guest” ride with an officer, and not during the day in the nice part of town.

1. Do you believe this woman deserves monetary damages for the loss of her unborn baby?

2. If the miscarriage could have been prevented should there be a wrongful death charge?

Evidently she was already bleeding when she was pulled over so there might not have been anything the officers or medics could have done. I’m sure this will be addressed by experts in the law suit.


Who’s to say she didn’t induce the miscarriage herself. Appears she could care less about the welfare of her existing children.

Would share the opinion of Victoria here and the Iowa law she cites.

3. Should the officers involved be fired for their actions/inaction?

If they were found guilty they should be fired. I’d go a step further and force them to pay for part of the damages if any are awarded.

I've included this because it's so patently misinformed it needs to be high-lited While you'll never hear me tell you the Police are your Friends - You'll certainly never hear me call them the Enemy.

1) From who should she get monetary compensation for the loss of her 3 month old unborn baby? God? He's notorious for not paying out. The Police? Have they been found guilty by any legal system yet? The article didn't mention this. It seems that charges were just filed.

2) I doubt anyone could prove this even if it were the case.

3) If these officers are found guilty they should absolutely be fired and then Sofia Salva should seek financial compensation. However it appears that the Police in question are already on suspension:



Reading what is out there about this case I'd like to add these two cops seems like particularly bad Police Officers. I cannot imagine how they decided their road-side bust couldn't include a call to Paramedics on the scene.

The myth of someone lurking outside my house is just that, a myth. I don't fear my house being broken into, I fear the police, because I know I am more likely to be robbed by a man with a badge than I am in an alley. I leave my doors unlocked, I leave my cars unlocked and when I'm in the "bad part of town" I do the opposite. The job of a police officer is not dangerous, it's not even in the top 10 of the most dangerous jobs. It is dangerous to the citizens though. The citizens are likely to be robbed, assaulted, incarcerated, or even killed. For every noble deed you could tell me about I could respond with more nefarious acts. Don't believe this lie that cops actually risk their lives, they don't. They show up to work dressed in neatly pressed uniforms and well combed hair, wearing the newest cool sunglasses and then commence to wreaking havoc on the general public. Read the transcripts about how flippant this officer was about the woman's medical conditions. "How's that my problem?" This is not an isolated incident. This is the general level of concern cops have for citizens, they revile them as scum. If you don't have a badge, you're a low-life. Not only that but they defend a system which protects money interest over people. How many car chases have cost someone's life? Too many to count, and what is the purpose of the chase? Protecting property. The American system values property far more than it values life.

Do you favor legislation that makes the harming of the fetus a crime? In eyeing that you are a communist, I'm inclined to believe that you would be against such provisions. The issue isn't about police brutality so much as it is about a circumstance dealing with how as a society, we "value" the "life" of a fetus. Do you still believe that the officers should get the death penalty for the death of the woman's fetus? If so, are we also ready to charge abortion doctors? Not saying it's right-but I think the police brutality line of thinking is really off on this topic.

Oh lord. This is a good one.

Police officers don't make the list of most dangerous jobs in the US, as the majority of them have the ability to protect themselves, and a large portion of their service is done under controlled circumstances. It's alot like the reason that soldier isn't on the list, even in the face of the war. Furthermore, it should be noted that the lists that discuss dangerous jobs in the US discuss only "deaths". How many police officers suffer broken bones, bruises, or worse every day?

Police officers do face danger, and in many cases see the lowest common denominator of society. I am not defending the actions of these officers, and do believe that there are bad cops. However- it's hard for someone that hears every excuse, every lame reason, and learns to distrust criminals to discern truth from a scam.

People do get robbed, and there MIGHT be someone that comes into your home, car, etc at some point. What if you can't defend yourself? What if your car is stolen? What do you plan to do? Seriously. Even living in Texas and owning firearms, if someone came in my house (which probably won't happen, I have big dogs!), I'd let the dogs loose, grab the gun, and tell my wife to dial 911 (maybe not in that order). It's the reaction that most people would have, and rightfully so.

What I'd wonder is how this all transpired, and if policy affected the outcome. Was the bleeding in large amounts, or small professional bleeding? What caused the miscarriage? Could have doctor's attention helped change the outcome? All of these things matter more than pointing fingers. I hate that the baby was lost, but there don't seem to be enough details to make an assumption.

[quote name='Sleeper' date='Feb 2 2007, 08:46 PM' post='206509']

Questions to be debated:

1. Do you believe this woman deserves monetary damages for the loss of her unborn baby?

ABSOLUTELY!

2. If the miscarriage could have been prevented should there be a wrongful death charge?

I'm going to defer this one to the laws of the state, if the laws of the state say that the baby should be considered a life in a criminal prosecution then yes. I.E. if you were to cause the death of a pregnant woman would that state charge you with the death of one person or two.

3. Should the officers involved be fired for their actions/inaction?

Again, most definately, in fact I think they should be criminally prosecuted, if the wonam had died herself they should be charged with negligent homicide, isn't part of the job description "to serve and protect". Had that woman had a medical problem that was life threatening and they refused her medical attention, and she died shouldn't they be criminally responsible? Whether she had a miscarrige or a stroke - I see no difference in how the police should have responded, and in this case they didn't respond.

Understand that not everyone lives in Mayberry RFD.


Source. So according to your statement, at least 1,077,064 of these were committed by police officers? Must have missed those news stories.

If you want to slam the police that’s certainly your right, but please be prepared to back up your wild claims with some proof.


Top 10 most stressful jobs.
Police officer ranks as number two.

And just why do you think it’s the second most stressful job? I’ll tell you why.

Every time they pull someone over they take the risk of being hit by another car.
Every time they stick their head towards the window and ask for a drivers license and registration they risk being shot.
Every time they respond to a burglary they risk their life.
Every time they respond to a domestic violence issue they risk their life.
I could go on but hopefully you get the point that in almost every situation in which they respond their life could be in danger.

And for one moment consider the alternative without a police force. They are there for a purpose and it’s not to be slandered to the low life level in which you place them.


The purpose of the chase? To apprehend a criminal who has committed a crime. It sounds like you advocate a system that once a criminal commits a crime as long as they get in a car and flee the game is over. No problems with that.

I read the transcripts and in this particular instance their behavior was inappropriate and should be dealt with. In my book there are very few things as disgusting as a crooked cop. But as pointed out earlier, when you’re in a stressful job day in and day out mistakes will be made, particularly judgmental mistakes. However this does not give anyone permission to make blanket statements that ALL cops are thieving low lifes.

That’s ok, I’m sure one day you’ll need their assistance and when you do they’ll be there for you. Shame they can’t say the same.

I think this woman would probably have lost her baby anyway if she was bleeding at three months gestation, I can only think of one case in my experience, where heavy bleeding at three months gestation did not end in a miscarriage.

Not that I am making excuses for the appalling treatment she received at the hands of the police, if of course the article is wholly accurate.

I certainly feel that if the article is wholly accurate those police officers involved should face harsh disciplinary action.

Trying to look at this thing objectively and from both perspectives, I imagine the police felt the woman was shamming to avoid being arrested, I can understand that reaction when one thinks about the sort of stories they must hear every working day.

There is absolutely no excuse for not seeking a medical opinion once the woman was incarcerated though.

I do not think the woman should receive damages for the loss of her baby for the reasons above mentioned but, I do think she has a case against them for negligence of her medical well being once incarcerated.

I know that, but neighborhoods are safe because the people who live in them are good people. That's why bad neighborhoods have so much crime, because poor people rob and assault each other. People that live in South Central L.A. do not take a bus and invade the homes in Beverly Hills, they rob the guy down the street. If all the police were removed from my area the likelihood of me being robbed would not change, because the people make my neighborhood safe, not the police. Same for a bad neighborhood, increase the police force and nothing would change, because police do not stop crimes, they arrest people for committing them. The reasons crimes are committed have nothing to do with the police, it is from necessity. A salesman making $100,000 annually has never mugged somebody, those crimes are committed by people below the poverty line. Move those people above the poverty line and they won't commit those crimes. You don't help out crime by giving cops more resources to arrest people. The money that goes to police weaponry could go toward education, job training, or investments in the neighborhood. The police force is armed with handguns, shotguns, machine guns, handcuffs, mace, tazers, batons, retractable metal clubs, squad cars, radios, helicopters, etc. They have all the resources at their disposal and this leads to a violent society. You want to stop crime? Invest in education. Create jobs. But that never happens, every year the police budget grows. The police are supposed to be a self-deprecating entity, meaning the better they do their job, the less need there is for them. Instead, they are a self-serving entity. Cops keep finding new reasons to take our taxpayers dollars. And because of people like you Fife and Drum, and aevans176, and nebraska29, they will continue to get our money. The politicians ask the police what they need. Nobody ever asks the criminals why they do what they do. Wouldn't that get to the source of the problem? Why ask a cop how to stop crime? Ask a criminal.

Almost every time, not every time, but almost every time a police officer pulls over a citizen, they are committing a robbery. Perfect example, by my house there is a one lane road with one or two intersections, but they are not four way intersections, they are only three-way intersection, one leads to a park, one to a subdivision, the other into industrial parks, and this is where the police wait. Both the park and the industrial park close after business hours, so after 5 PM, neither one of these intersections have traffic. So people routinely roll these stop signs because there is no reason to stop. There is no difference between a man in a ski mask waiting in the shadows and a police officer patrolling a rarely used intersection waiting for a nonchalant motorist. The police are ROBBING people. The other night I drove to work at night, on my way I saw a speed trap set up, and 4 other people pulled over within 7 miles of a highway. I guess that night people were particularly bad drivers, or maybe cops had an initiative to pull people over. Cops have to make budget too.

I would like to see the police operate like the Fire Department, on call, not proactive. They are never proactive when it comes to stopping the crimes that matter, assault, robbery, homicide, rape, and the like. The cops are NEVER there when you need them, they are there AFTER you need them. A woman just raped doesn't need a cop, she needed a cop, past tense. The only thing they do pro-actively is take our taxpayers money and harass minorities and teenagers. Like I keep saying, they do more harm than good. We need less cops, reform in how they operate, and more teachers. Our society will be better off for it.

To nebraska29,

This case isn't about the fetus, it's about the contempt for which police officers view the general public. To them, we are scum. The police did not care about this woman or her child, because she is scum. Miscarriages can be caused by stress. Study #2
Being arrested can be stressful. Being broke can be stressful too, as this woman obviously was. She did not have enough money to pay for plates for her car so she created fake tags. The bottom line is that the police caused a baby to die.

1. Do you believe this woman deserves monetary damages for the loss of her unborn baby?

Yes, I think so. The police did not listen to the woman's pleas. She could have been taken to the hospital and booked later.

2. If the miscarriage could have been prevented should there be a wrongful death charge?

Possibly. It's hard to say that the miscarriage itself was the result of what the officers did, but not listening to the woman certainly did not help. The fact that they were unconcerned about her condition is deplorable. I have to agree with barnaby2341 that the woman was treated contemptuously.

3. Should the officers involved be fired for their actions/inaction?

Yes, or at least be suspended long enough for it to hurt a little and ordered to make a formal apology and pay some compensatory damages. Their behavior was inconsistent with their vow "to serve and protect". Now, I know that police will not apologize for holding a person under suspicion and treating that person like a criminal, and they don't apologize for tossing someone's apartment in a search, only to find nothing illegal. But it seems to me that they don't have to act like brutes, either.

I know what it is like to suffer a miscarriage. I can only imagine the rage mixed with grief that this woman must be feeling toward the police right now. Something should be done so that police officers will remember that the welfare of the person comes before their paperwork, that they don't become free from responsibility toward their charges when they put on their uniforms.

1. Do you believe this woman deserves monetary damages for the loss of her unborn baby?

If the account is true, then the woman deserves monetary damages for the police department’s refusal to allow her medical treatment for a valid medical emergency. I’m sure that if she had had a deep laceration on a limb that was spurting blood, those officers would have allowed her medical treatment before dealing with her outstanding warrants. I find it interesting that in of all places Kansas, right smack in the middle of the Bible belt, with the opinions most have of the rights of the unborn, would treat the situation the way they did. Pretty pathetic.

2. If the miscarriage could have been prevented should there be a wrongful death charge?

Depends on the laws in Kansas and whether the law recognizes the death of a fetus. I believe she definitely has a case for refusal of medical treatment.

3. Should the officers involved be fired for their actions/inaction?

Normally, I would say they should be punished appropriately, but without losing their jobs, but these sad sacks treated Ms. Salva worse than they would an animal. Their cavalier attitude and repulsive remarks showing their lack of humanity make me think they deserve to lose their job, because they are ill-suited to dealing with the public they are supposed to serve and protect.

Thank you for your kind response, it's good when other people clairfy what they believe. I would just like point out that no one in any way is suggesting that these police officers get away with it. If they are guilty of doing what was alleged, then by all means, the legal system will mete out the appropriate punishment. There are plenty of bad cops in prison, the system is hardly immune to them. I would caution folks in painting with a broad brush, the bad apples as being representative of the entire group. If a bad teacher sexually offends on a student, then does it necessarily follow that all teachers are lecherous? If an accountant cheats on his/her taxes, then are all CPAs liars and cheats? Once again, no one is taking issue with the guilt of these guys, they do however, take issue with the broad cateogrizing of a profession that is illogical when placed under scrutiny.

I wouldn’t expect an astronaut and Navy Captain making over $100K/year to assault anyone either, would you? Oh, wait a minute…..

Again, your broad generalizations and utopian views have unfortunately created a distorted understanding of how things really work: increase education, create jobs and “poof” crime is gone. While I agree it’s part of the solution there’s more to the criminal mind than a job.


You’ve got to be kidding me! I’ve got a simple solution for you here: don’t break the law and the police won’t cite/fine you. To compare a police officer citing some one for breaking the law to some one actually breaking the law is simply flawed logic.


Are you suggesting we should let motorist drive at any speed and put the rest of us at risk? These people got pulled over because they broke the law, how hard is that to understand.


I can’t speak for aevans176, nebraska29 or the rest of the country, but I’m sure you’ll find yourself in the minority believing the solution to rogue cops is to reduce the number of cops and their necessary funding.

This quote puts everything into perspective.

Don’t get arrested.
Don’t have more kids when you’re broke while apparently mistreating those you already have.
Bad luck or what ever the circumstances for this woman can never be used as an excuse to shirk personal responsibility and commit crimes.


Understand this was a fetus not a baby. Huge difference, but nice try at the hyperbole. And how convenient that you continue to ignored the fact she was already bleeding and could have induced the miscarriage herself while simultaneously finding the cops guilty.

Traffic violations are part of the budget! Hello! That doesn't make you suspicious? How can the police possibly gauge how many drivers are going to break the law in a given year? Because they decide when to enforce the laws and the enforcement does not affect the safety of the roads. The safety of the roads fluctuates with the amount of traffic, not the speed of the traffic. It is statistically proven that most accidents occur during rush hour, 7 AM to 8 AM and 4 PM to 5 PM. Furthermore, the optimum speed of the road is not chosen by the state, it's chosen by the citizens. Go to any Defensive Driving class and they will TEACH you, government sponsored classes by the way, and they will TEACH YOU to drive at the speed of the TRAFFIC, not the speed of the sign. That's why old people that drive slow are so dangerous, because they disrupt the flow of the traffic and young kids that drive fast do the same. Everybody on the road could be breaking the law but together they are making the road more safe.

As a little side note, cops don't give other cops tickets. So the law of the land only applies to the scum of society; the general public.

You are showing the same lack of compassion that police have for the public in our debate. You say, "Don't break the law and you won't go to jail." Easily said, the woman most likely did not have enough money to pay for her traffic violations so they went to warrant status. She knew that if she drove with expired tags she would get pulled over and go to jail. Since she did not have the money to pay for plates, she made fake tags. So your actual argument is that she should not make the mistake of being poor. Once she does that, there is no way out of poverty. You are going to be in debt forever.

You get a traffic violation.
Your insurance goes up.
You can't pay for insurance.
You get your license taken away.
You can't drive to work.
You lose your job.
You don't make money.
You can't eat.
You die.

That is the progression. So your choices are perpetual poverty or death. How do you pay for higher education when you can't afford a car? This quotation by George Orwell is most applicable.

"You want a vision of the future? Imagine a boot, stamping on a human face - forever." - George Orwell

1. Do you believe this woman deserves monetary damages for the loss of her unborn baby?

From what I understand of the situation so far I would have to say yes.

2. If the miscarriage could have been prevented should there be a wrongful death charge?

I have a hard time with this issue and of course abortion. I agree with blocking partial birth abortion save for a minute amount of exceptions, and in such a case the human that lost the child in question should be able to have revenge in my opinion. Its funny to see how pro life and pro choice can flip so easily

3. Should the officers involved be fired for their actions/inaction?

That’s a tricky one also. I mean I am sure the cops have guidelines to follow in regards to a situation like this. I mean its not far fetched to think cops would come into contact with pregnant people right? So if they had guidelines that they did not follow I think the rest is self explanatory. I mean if a person is shooting from a car, and the car has a hostage family in it, I don’t think the law allows the cops to light the car up with gunfire right? At least I would hope not. Overall a badge gives a human being a lot of power, and it would be stupid to not also detail this power with an equal amount of responsibility to make sure those people server and protect, and only do such.