States Challenge Nat'l Driver's License

WASHINGTON — A revolt against a national driver's license, begun in Maine last month, is quickly spreading to other states.
The Maine Legislature on Jan. 26 overwhelmingly passed a resolution objecting to the Real ID Act of 2005. The federal law sets a national standard for driver's licenses and requires states to link their record-keeping systems to national databases.
Within a week of Maine's action, lawmakers in Georgia, Wyoming, Montana, New Mexico, Vermont and Washington state also balked at Real ID. They are expected soon to pass laws or adopt resolutions declining to participate in the federal identification network.





Questions for the debate:

Do we need the Real ID to protect us from illegal Immigration including terrorists entering the US? Why or Why not.

If NOT then what type of ID will work to make it hard for illegals to enter and operate in the US? Who should issue it?

If states do not comply should there be a penalty?

Why would Democrats or any other group be against a secure ID.

I would say it definitely helps, but I should probably preface by saying I have long been in favor of a National Driver's License for various reasons. I for one like a standard license that gives a measure of uniformity to driving and an identification hard. This should make a lot harder to forge these documents, which in turn will help the illegal immigration problem we currently face.


I am not sure how smart Congress was, but if they simply did this under the Commerce Clause, then it wouldn't have to be an issue. If not, they should use their spending power to control states. Simply taking away state highway funding, similar to the way they do to control the drinking age and a 65 mph speed limit would be the best way to do this, especially for Northeastern states.


Scare tactics to win elections? I cannot think of a single good reason to be against them as hard as I have tried.

I think it's a good idea. Not for the "protection" from anything.

ID clearly isn't the issue. There isn't a massive run on false papers although there are some. What needs to happen is that people who hire illegal immigrants need to be fined into oblivion. And as for terrorists they used our legal system against us. Getting a Real ID will be as simple as getting a Passport or a SSN card.

No.

Is it the Dems? I'd think the Libertarians would be up in arms over the idea. The Real ID could be innocous or sinister - it simply depends on who's running it at them moment. So too can DMV. Anyone against this playing slippery slope.

Well as a L/libertarian, I can tell you that I don't really see too much of a problem with the Real ID Act. The Libertarian Party is against it as is the ACLU, they claim it will compromise privacy, lead to a surveillance sociey and make identity theft more easily perpetrated...I don't see how either will occur.

Here's the ACLU's website offshoot on the Act, if anyone's interested: Real Nightmare

It can't hurt, and I don't see any Constitutional problems with it; might as well give it a try.
No
The resistance to it has been loudest in libertarian circles.


CP

This seems like a contradiction. How can we “fine into oblivion” anyone who hired an illegal alien if it is easy to get false papers? What we need is a secure ID system that makes it very hard, if not impossible, to forge. Add to THAT significant penalties for hiring illegal aliens and we are on our way to a solution to the problem.

March 30, 2007
Confirmed: The U.S. Census Bureau Gave Up Names of Japanese-Americans in WW II
Government documents show that the agency handed over names and addresses to the Secret Service

It is thus necessary that the individual should finally come to realize that his own ego is of no importance in comparison with the existence of the nation, that the position of the individual is conditioned solely by the interests of the nation as a whole. Adolph Hitler


When Hitler attacked the Jews ... I was not a Jew, therefore, I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked the Catholics, I was not a Catholic, and therefore, I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked the unions and the industrialists, I was not a member of the unions and I was not concerned. Then, Hitler attacked me and the Protestant church—and there was nobody left to be concerned. Martin Niemller (1892–1984), German Protestant pastor, theologian

In 1976 Ronald Reagan said "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, “I'm from the government and I'm here to help.”"


I don't trust the government, I am NOT a number, I will not take the number of the beast.

Actually you already have a number – your SS#. All the real ID does is ensure that the “number” is really you and that the number itself is not a fiction – as with many illegal aliens.

I like the reference to Revelations though and I actually agree with you that a “number” applied to everyone in the world so that they can do business is what is referred to there. So lets not worry. It will be a while before we have the “real ID” embedded in our bodies (head or hand) and a long while before it is applied to the whole world.


Others have determined that the important verse in the above passage is the reference to "a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads." They have concluded that the mark is:

A national ID card,

An implantable microchip,


The abandonment of cash and adoption of "smart cards."

Etc. 9

http://www.religioustolerance.org/666.htm

Do we need the Real ID to protect us from illegal Immigration including terrorists entering the US? Why or Why not. A so-called "Real ID" is yet to be technically well defined. It is nieve to assume so, and imprudent to let anyone do so! There are enough damages to individuals and groups possible through vote fraud, tax fraud, money laundering, identity theft, etc., to put all such suggestions on hold until it is a "proven" at point of service, and computer break-in "safe" concept.

If NOT then what type of ID will work to make it hard for illegals to enter and operate in the US? Who should issue it? Same as above. It is also not a specifically given federal power, and I would fight it's being anywhere near a necessary and proper implementation power of Congress. Citizenship is derived from birth or residency in a state! They are all purely state's rights, and have not ever made a federal "power". (Those of us inclined and capable of nefarious thinking can make a circus of any Fed approach using present Fed capabilities.)

If states fail to comply should there be a penalty?Not under any Fed power granted. But there will be a Fed effort to tie compliance to the "always beneficent Fed granting of our Tax funds".

Why would Democrats or any other group be against a secure IDCuz there ain't no such secure ID capability anywhere. And I want to be included in all blackhat ("slang term" for a separate independent effort by financially and bureaucratically disinterested folks to show weaknesses and errors in any such suggested tech capability) efforts to show such for any proposed system. But I expect such proposals will neglect "black-hatting" as a requirement.

The issue in my opinion is that the ability to identify anyone is a ‘national” one since people are free to move from state to state. I agree the states should take the lead but the government may want to “define” a tamper proof technology for doing same.




And this is part of the problem. Many states and cities will decide to ignore ID issues and some fools in CA had even proposed issuing drivers licenses to illegal aliens. The terrorists and illegal aliens must be amazed at the sheer stupidity of this.





Yes there is none anywhere although some have come close. In Canada’s broke “socialized” medical system you need an ID that verifies you are a legal citizen to get medical care. This is as close to a national ID as I can think of.

But IMO creating the national ID should be the job of NSA. These are the folks who certify our security codes (encryption) and would seem to be the best qualified for the job. And I agree that“blackhat” verification should be funded and encouraged. All of our encryption algorithms are constantly tested by government and independent sources. Our commerce depends on it more every day. To think we cannot come up with a “Read ID” is ludicrous – the question is do we have the will to do it especially in a political environment were it seems many people want to protect and foster the illegal aliens here and their ability to enter and operated in the US unimpeded.

After reading Ted's comments, I realize I am bringing in some of my "other" concerns on the use of ID's, both pro and con, that go beyond just the illegal aliens issues that were the focus of the debate question. I had some similar exchanges with Inventor re his "Vote Machine Fraud" topic earlier. (Maybe we need an "All ID issues debate topic".) But, I still fear the Fed, as solvers of this problem, based solely on their fully demonstrated ineptitude.


I worked at one of the few places that could create these things directly for/with NSA. There are some good things in the NSA, as there are everywhere. However, I don't think their present capabilities are up to this, though they should certainly be allowed to contribute!. And it is not really their mission to do personnel ID/badges/access control/"licensing" of the type I foresee. If anything, the makers of our money are best at counter-counterfeiting (one of the issues) and I'd include them.

Indeed, all the so-called "secret and/or limited access" program folks have a bunch of tricks, that also should be included (FBI, CIA, DOD, Ones too secret to name, White House, Homeland Security, TSA, States, Counties and Cities Cops and Agencies, DOE, DOJ, DOC, etc., etc.) All can, and I hope would, contribute; but, if you look at the historical record, they all have less than stellar "security deployment and management demonstrated performance", and less "disinterested technical quality performance" than I believe will be required, for the full-up ID problem, but also, I believe, for the more limited illegal alien focus we're addressing here.


True, but too me still not good enuf! And it's not for not trying! It's because the inherent problems involved have not been well enuf RDT&E'd for years and years!! Many of us are underwhelmed by the commercial encryption work we've seen. There is a big problem with what is called a "back door" (essentially a way to break the encryption [and we would have an equivalent problem in the full-up ID system] that is purposely built into encryption that can be used with special extra knowledge, supposedly kept secret and only allowed to a few "trusted" [note the circular argument inherent in all these ID/secret/etc. systems] folks, fully and completely being "provably absent" from such. (And absence of proof is not proof of absence.)

Many believe this is OK, that the Fed's have the mission to build such things into most of their "service functions", of these types, in order to ensure that they can have guaranteed access to "alleged" crime info., one of their other jobs! Folks of my ilk don't think such things can be kept secret, cuz the crime payoff is just too huge, and safe, so it will get out eventually. Proving this level of "guaranteed safe" is way beyond almost impossible, and it only takes one "slip" by a PO'd, or problem, or greedy or immoral holder of the info. (Also recall that about 4% of any population is sociopathic or psychopathic and is both drawn to these "power positions" and fairly incapable of a moral sense.)

A related much rumored, and I believe true from working the numbers myself, situation is credit card ID use/abuse and identity theft that is a hidden and externalized cost (strict economic term meaning) of the financing and banking industry, that is completely out of control, presently unsolved, and quite possibly is to reemerge and happily reside in any "Real ID" program. It is very, very costly. Not at all for the "general welfare of us, the non-gov people".


It's OK, I believe, and not so ludicrous when you get into the guts of the nitty-gritty details of the full ID problem, to be very doubtful/sceptical when first considering the ID problem cuz of it's unbelievable complexity and potential for damage. Wanting to protect and foster "any and all, including illegal aliens, who would do us harm is not to be condoned! But, neither is a non-solution that appears to be a solution but may actually be more of a problem than the problem it is reputed to solve!

I suggest the next state's governor's meeting decide to hold an "all states effort", and also task (hee hee) the Feds to help, but only properly submissively so, to define, refine and begin the proper RDT&E-ing, if it appears feasible, as the necessary and proper "states rights" function for getting a "Real ID" system, should it be possible that one is shown to exist.

"Real ID" systems all starts with validated date, place, legality and parentage guarantee of birth, or border crossing/entry. That's at state and local control only! (Sorry, Homeland Security and it's TSA have so far failed all my, short and limited, tests.) The Patriot Act? Another subject for another time please! (Also, I'll laugh if you let Hillary include it in a "National Health Care", or a "Save the Children" program!)

Do we need the Real ID to protect us from illegal Immigration including terrorists entering the US? Why or Why not.

No. A national identification card for nationals and legal immigrants/visitors/guest/workers would not stop foreign terrorists. Aren't passports and visas the issue here. And if people come without following the rules then the form won;t matter. I am no expert here, but the old passport identification system is much worse than our drivers licenses in terms of being able to forge. I am speaking here not as an immigration agent but as a former bartender. I never did have time to learn the seal of the nation of Lithuania.

This type of identification would not be effective in stopping people from entering the country illegal but it would assist us in detecting their illegal activity in this country.

If NOT then what type of ID will work to make it hard for illegals to enter and operate in the US? Who should issue it?

A think our present social security card should be transformed from a piece of paper to a hi-tech national photo identification with whatever biometrics can be added. The cost could be paid by the recipient and perhaps defrayed by the federal government. The United States government should issue it. Drivers licenses should be a separate issue and in the hands of the states for how they issue such documents. The federal government takes too much power from the states and hurls too much responsibility at them. This should be a federal id and it should be required of all using a social security number.

If states do not comply should there be a penalty?

N/A per my previous answer.

Why would Democrats or any other group be against a secure ID.

I would think Republican leaning libertarians would be most against this. It's probably Bill Clinton's fault.

IMO the NSA would be best at certifying the “hardware” and software used to implement the Read ID. They would not build it buy certify the design as they do with our encryption codes and the hardware it works on. Lets remember that trillions in national and international commerse is protedted by secure encryption that “identifies” senders and receivers and provides for un crackable identification and message security. Certainly each person could have a “secure ID” just as they can have a secure “digital signature” now accepted in financial transactions.

http://www.arx.com/products/cosign.php?sou...esimple22112006




I disagree as above. The billions of internet and phone credit card transactions are secure using strong encryption like PGP or RSA. And this is the key – use encryption algorithms that are public by nature and can be vetted by independent sources. Both PGD (which I use at home) and RSA meet these criteria.

Also biometric systems would work in conjunction with this to ensure the person with the ID IS the person holding it. This would solve most of the credit card ID issue.



This is an excellent idea and incorporates much of what I have said above.

On the flip side of a "Real ID" and its properties, I ask:

1. If your birth certification is your citizenship certification , it's done at a local hospital, and certifies birth in a state, (the US Const. requirement for US citizenship other than naturalization). So it's a state and local action!! (Naturalization is a bit different but should be handled in the same spirit as the following!!! , or so I say! )

2. So, based on that, can you prove you are a citizen and not an illegal alien? Don't you want to be able to? But don't you also not want to have that "proof" accessable or usable by anyone but you? I want all this for me and mine!!

3. The Fed's requirement for getting a "Real ID" don't seem to be derived from 1 or 2, so what is it worth as an ID of any worth really/legally/provably?

4. The Fed's, at least my Post Office, say it no longer accepts birth certificates as adequate proof for a US Passport! So what does, that also of course must be in line with 1 and 2 by the Const. right? Is a US Passport a "Real Fed ID"?

5 How forgable, and identity theft-able are birth certificates? Weak I say! I'd like them stronger. Lets let states get together and have a birth certificate set of standards, for after all they need sometning to accept residency changes by citizens! Make a standard certificate that's:

A printed on paper like our money with all those water marks, fibers, etc., etc. for forging resistance!

B has a certification signature (super notary nurse I guess) that takes the baby, makes a foot print(s) on the above certif, writes time, date, place, names (child) parents (if any, but proven citizens), delivering doctor's name, hospital name, other withnesses, and a serial number (like for money) but never ever ever like or to be used as an ID #, SSN #, tax ID, MIL ID #, Draft Reg #. etc., otherwise we might just as well tatoo it on the childs butt (but, that's forgable too, so don't wast the ink).

C has a picture, notary super nurse again, of baby.

D has places for updates of pictures, footprints (transfering ot fingerprints later too), name changes, etc.

E has a place for certification of death at end of life. (It's OK to have separated death certifs for lost birth certifs, but that should be an exception.

F voter reg, and other ID's (mil, VA, insurance, etc., are to be derivable for this certif.

With at least this level of ID-ing I'd feel a whole lot better than any Fed "Real ID"; and I'd whant it state controlled, cuz the US Const does not give this right to the Fed's

“'Real' requirements
The Real ID Act's identity cards will be required if one wants to drive, visit a federal government building, collect Social Security, access a federal government service or use the services of a private entity (such as a bank or an airline) that is required under federal law to verify customer identity.
It will be nearly impossible to live without such an ID. That creates a huge incentive for citizens and residents to get IDs and for states to comply with this unfunded mandate: If they didn't, their citizens and residents wouldn't be able to get access to any of the services or benefits listed above. Estimates of the cost of compliance range from $80 to $100 million -- and states will have to pay.
To get a new approved license, or conform an old one to Real ID, people will have to produce several types of documentation. Those records must prove their name, date of birth, Social Security number, principal residence and that they are lawfully in the United States.”
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/08/12/ramasastry.ids/index.html

It will cost money and will be a pain for some time but IMO something more then the current hodge podge of state laws is needed.


By the way 2 of the 6 terrorists plotting to kill soldiers were illegal aliens – one of whom had been stopped 52 times for traffic violations and never once questioned on his status.

Before we consider the pro's and con's of "what life will be like under a "Real ID" regime" as it is proposed and advertized by the proponents, I suggest we consider whether it will really work, "doing only what it is advertised to do, and not have any negative effects". These possible negatives to me would include:

A Can it be forged, for use by an "illegal" of several ilks, and for illegalities of several types?

B Can it be used to "identity theft" you and yours, or (not often mentioned) to falsely frame or blackmail you and yours!

C There are crooks in govt (surprise, surprise) and they are pretty well hidden. How many ways and at what cost can they "get at you and yours" thru the "Real ID" system using their easy access to all the data on you! What's the $$$'s and Liberty cost?

D How much will it openly cost, and how many hidden costs are there (such as the "hidden cost we pay for credit cards" that no bank will speak of). After all, to them its just costs passed on to us!

E Is it Constitutional, by whatever interpretation you use? If it ain't, what does that say to the rest of the world about the already tarnished US reputation for "bending/destroying our own rules, treaties and regs"? Do we want that rep?

F. How does the "Real ID" really establish citizenship. So far, the Feds don't even try nor have a clue how to, e.g. changing passport rules from birth certifs, etc, to voter registrations etc.

G. Finally, how is it going to show up as a voter ID, as I'm sure it will, (See Inventor's post on voting machine manufacturing for example!), a draft call up system, a tax ID system (yet again), a financial ID, a universal database linker ID, a license for even more things that the Fed's believe need to be regulated, and a general demise of "states" and "states rights"?

H I'm sure there is more along these lines that others can contribute! But until then; I vote we worry first, and accept later!

In short, there is way more going on under this rubric than just "illegal alien" finding and more gov't WOT jobs!

IMO any system that does not have a biometric component will be too easily forged, or faked. Even this can be beat if it does not tie back to a valid SS# and or birth certificate.



I cannot see how there could be constitutional issues. The constitution grants us some privacy buy not anonymity.



Valid SS# with a tie back to Birth certificate would be the best. Lots of work to do to get there. “States Rights” would be intact if they did the verification – with some Fed funding?

I agree completely. See my post May 11, 2007, 01:05pm, in Dometstic Policy, #214967 for some thoughts on this.

As general info for those perhaps not familiar with the term, Biometric in identification means the ID is based on something measurable/observable in the body of the person. Examples are: pulse and EEG for some ID-ing and for a live-vs-dead determination (needed when the ID-ing is done at/to/from a remote site; fingerprints, voice prints, and retinal scans, already somethimes used and forensicly acceptable as court evicence; lately suggestions for useing a persons genetic material, which can be gotten easily from a mouth swab.

I was thinking of Constititionality at the higher levels of:
1). "Does this action fulfill the purposes of the Const. stated in the Preamble?" I say it must be shown to be so!
2). " Has the Federal gov't been given this specific power in the Const?" (If not, it's reserved for the people and the states! I say it's not been given to them!!)
3). "Are we going to let Congress keep doing things under its so-called "necessary and proper" power (power #18 I believe), without having to have them show the necessity and propriety to serve the Preamble purposes of the Const. I say they must so show. They say #18 is just to let them do the first 17 powers, without having to meet any purposes explicitly (Preamble or otherwise),to them it's not necessary even rhetorically!

Maybe. Why go thru an SSN card though, (its just another stage for error and abuse) rather than strqaight to the birth certificate? And as far as Fed funding goes, they have a terrible habit of purtting "out of the issue general Fed rules compliance penalties on the acceptors of such funds. I think in this case they should "give our IRS monies back to the states "with absolulely no strangs, a so-called "grant" to the states and let the states do it in concert for all. After all, the states have reciprocity issues they must meet!

Indeed, there is lots of work to be done here!