Full Version: Hell Is For Children
I am a believer in the innate goodness and mercy of human beings. Most of the time.
Other times I am convinced people are worthless scum and deserve to be erased from the face of the earth.
I try to be skeptical and not cynical. I accept that sometimes there are just evil people in the world, but I find I can still be stunned and sickened by the utter depravity of human beings.
That is if you can find anything human about this.
PITTSBURGH -- A man angry his toddler daughter wouldn't go to bed knocked her unconscious and left her to die outside, police said.
The frozen body of Nyia Miangel Page, who was about to turn 2, was found Sunday at an abandoned playground about a 10-minute walk from the family's home. Tiny footprints in the snow suggest she had gotten up and wandered around before she died, police said.
Her father, William Lorenzo Page, 23, of Braddock, was arrested Wednesday on charges of criminal homicide, kidnapping, false reports and simple assault. He has been in custody since Sunday, when he was charged with sexually abusing another child shortly before Nyia died.
Page told police he woke up early Saturday and found the girl awake and playing near a mirror in the hallway, according to a criminal complaint filed Wednesday night. He said he got mad when the girl wouldn't go back to bed so he hit her so hard she hit her head and was unconscious, the complaint said.
Police said Page told them he took the girl outside wrapped in a blanket and left her, still breathing, beside railroad tracks near a bridge.
An autopsy determined Nyia died of hypothermia, but the Allegheny County Medical Examiner ruled the death a homicide because investigators said it was unreasonable to assume the child had made it alone to the playground, which is on a wooded knoll.
Authorities could only guess how long Nyia, wearing only a sweater and a diaper, could have survived in temperatures that hovered around 2 Saturday morning.
link
"Tiny footprints in the snow suggest she had gotten up and wandered around before she died."
That's the part that makes my stomach clench up and my voice cracks and I start crying. I think about what Nyia's last moments of life were like in the cold and the dark and the absolute horror of it all and it makes me cry all over again even as I type these words.
While the American press was kicking into full frenzy over the death of Anna Nicole Smith, this item slipped through the cracks:
PARIS, Feb. 7 — Austrian authorities have gathered information on more than 2,360 individuals from 77 countries who tried to view child pornography through a Russian Web site stored on a Vienna computer, the country’s Interior Ministry said Wednesday.
The discovery, which has not yet yielded arrests, set off a pedophile hunt around the world. The F.B.I. is looking for as many as 600 suspects in the United States, the Austrian ministry said. Germany has been given about 400 names and France close to 100. The ministry says 23 of the suspects are Austrian.
Interior Minister Günther Platter said the videos included images that showed “the worst kind of child sexual abuse” of children of various ages, ranging up to 14.
“Girls could be seen being raped, and you could also hear screams,” Harald Gremel, an Austrian police expert on Internet crime who headed the investigation, said at a news conference in Vienna, according to The Associated Press. He said the videos appeared to have been made in Eastern Europe and uploaded to the Vienna computer from Britain, and were accessible through a Russian Web site.
link2
"You could hear screams." There's a happy thought for you.
I can't begin to understand how sick and twisted you have to be to get off on child rape. I can think of all types of medieval punishments I'd like to inflict upon the purveyors and consumers of kiddie porn. Right now though, I feel a urgent need to do something to make sure there are no more Nyia Pages freezing to death in the snow or children having their innocence stolen by perverts.
Do a search of news articles on child pornography and abuse and you're overwhelmed by the sheer volume of it all. Kids are dying of hunger and disease around the world. Kids are having their childhood stolen as they grow up homeless and unwanted in the streets of Brazil and India or turned into prostitutes in Thailand or soldiers in Africa.
The Question for Debate:
How do you avoid becoming numb to the acts of brutality and cruelty directed against children?
Other times I am convinced people are worthless scum and deserve to be erased from the face of the earth.
I try to be skeptical and not cynical. I accept that sometimes there are just evil people in the world, but I find I can still be stunned and sickened by the utter depravity of human beings.
That is if you can find anything human about this.
PITTSBURGH -- A man angry his toddler daughter wouldn't go to bed knocked her unconscious and left her to die outside, police said.
The frozen body of Nyia Miangel Page, who was about to turn 2, was found Sunday at an abandoned playground about a 10-minute walk from the family's home. Tiny footprints in the snow suggest she had gotten up and wandered around before she died, police said.
Her father, William Lorenzo Page, 23, of Braddock, was arrested Wednesday on charges of criminal homicide, kidnapping, false reports and simple assault. He has been in custody since Sunday, when he was charged with sexually abusing another child shortly before Nyia died.
Page told police he woke up early Saturday and found the girl awake and playing near a mirror in the hallway, according to a criminal complaint filed Wednesday night. He said he got mad when the girl wouldn't go back to bed so he hit her so hard she hit her head and was unconscious, the complaint said.
Police said Page told them he took the girl outside wrapped in a blanket and left her, still breathing, beside railroad tracks near a bridge.
An autopsy determined Nyia died of hypothermia, but the Allegheny County Medical Examiner ruled the death a homicide because investigators said it was unreasonable to assume the child had made it alone to the playground, which is on a wooded knoll.
Authorities could only guess how long Nyia, wearing only a sweater and a diaper, could have survived in temperatures that hovered around 2 Saturday morning.
link
"Tiny footprints in the snow suggest she had gotten up and wandered around before she died."
That's the part that makes my stomach clench up and my voice cracks and I start crying. I think about what Nyia's last moments of life were like in the cold and the dark and the absolute horror of it all and it makes me cry all over again even as I type these words.
While the American press was kicking into full frenzy over the death of Anna Nicole Smith, this item slipped through the cracks:
PARIS, Feb. 7 — Austrian authorities have gathered information on more than 2,360 individuals from 77 countries who tried to view child pornography through a Russian Web site stored on a Vienna computer, the country’s Interior Ministry said Wednesday.
The discovery, which has not yet yielded arrests, set off a pedophile hunt around the world. The F.B.I. is looking for as many as 600 suspects in the United States, the Austrian ministry said. Germany has been given about 400 names and France close to 100. The ministry says 23 of the suspects are Austrian.
Interior Minister Günther Platter said the videos included images that showed “the worst kind of child sexual abuse” of children of various ages, ranging up to 14.
“Girls could be seen being raped, and you could also hear screams,” Harald Gremel, an Austrian police expert on Internet crime who headed the investigation, said at a news conference in Vienna, according to The Associated Press. He said the videos appeared to have been made in Eastern Europe and uploaded to the Vienna computer from Britain, and were accessible through a Russian Web site.
link2
"You could hear screams." There's a happy thought for you.
I can't begin to understand how sick and twisted you have to be to get off on child rape. I can think of all types of medieval punishments I'd like to inflict upon the purveyors and consumers of kiddie porn. Right now though, I feel a urgent need to do something to make sure there are no more Nyia Pages freezing to death in the snow or children having their innocence stolen by perverts.
Do a search of news articles on child pornography and abuse and you're overwhelmed by the sheer volume of it all. Kids are dying of hunger and disease around the world. Kids are having their childhood stolen as they grow up homeless and unwanted in the streets of Brazil and India or turned into prostitutes in Thailand or soldiers in Africa.
The Question for Debate:
How do you avoid becoming numb to the acts of brutality and cruelty directed against children?
How do you avoid becoming numb to the acts of brutality and cruelty directed against children?
The short answer is that you cannot. The amount of suffering on this sad planet is, quite literally, beyond imagining. Anyone who even began to comprehend it would, I think, invariably go mad. We must be numbed, to some extent, or we could not live. The question, of course, is how to avoid going beyond a necessary, even healthy amount of numbness, into indifference.
I have no good answers. One can try to do what one can to minimize the suffering of our fellow creatures. One must also balance this with care for oneself, or one will sink into despair. As a society, we must transform our numbness into clearsighted objectivity, or we will be unable to deal with such horrors in the proper manner. The understandable rage one feels against those who cause such immense suffering must be controlled, or injustices will occur.
The classic example is so-called "Satanic Ritual Abuse." (SRA) There is no doubt at all that there are some deranged individuals who abuse people in some delusional belief that they are serving Satan. However, there is no evidence at all that there is any kind of organized, widespread, ritualized abuse going on in the name of Satanism. Despite this, many people believe that it exists.
Link
Our understandable horror at the idea of such abuse can lead to the sort of witch-hunt madness which happened during this period of time.
Link
In our quest to avoid losing our compassion for victims, we must also avoid allowing our understandable emotions to blind us to the truth.
The short answer is that you cannot. The amount of suffering on this sad planet is, quite literally, beyond imagining. Anyone who even began to comprehend it would, I think, invariably go mad. We must be numbed, to some extent, or we could not live. The question, of course, is how to avoid going beyond a necessary, even healthy amount of numbness, into indifference.
I have no good answers. One can try to do what one can to minimize the suffering of our fellow creatures. One must also balance this with care for oneself, or one will sink into despair. As a society, we must transform our numbness into clearsighted objectivity, or we will be unable to deal with such horrors in the proper manner. The understandable rage one feels against those who cause such immense suffering must be controlled, or injustices will occur.
The classic example is so-called "Satanic Ritual Abuse." (SRA) There is no doubt at all that there are some deranged individuals who abuse people in some delusional belief that they are serving Satan. However, there is no evidence at all that there is any kind of organized, widespread, ritualized abuse going on in the name of Satanism. Despite this, many people believe that it exists.
Link
QUOTE
Whether or not SRA actually existed was a high-profile controversial topic between 1980 and the mid 1990s. A survey by Redbook magazine in 1994 found that 70% of American adults believed in the existence of abusive Satanic cults. Thirty-two percent explained away the absence of proof by believing that "the FBI and police ignore evidence because they don't want to admit the cults exist." There is a near consensus among investigators today that SRA is either nonexistent or occurs at an extremely low and undetectable level.
Our understandable horror at the idea of such abuse can lead to the sort of witch-hunt madness which happened during this period of time.
Link
QUOTE
Hundreds of adults were convicted of ritual abuse of children, mostly during the 1980s and early 1990s. Almost all have had their cases revisited. Most convictions have been overturned because of what we now know about:
How easy it was for investigators to get false disclosures of abuse from young children by simply asking direct questions, repeatedly.
How meaningless the past standards of evidence were for sexual abuse of girls.
How meaningless past STD lab tests were on children.
A few innocent people continue to rot in prison in the United States and elsewhere.
How easy it was for investigators to get false disclosures of abuse from young children by simply asking direct questions, repeatedly.
How meaningless the past standards of evidence were for sexual abuse of girls.
How meaningless past STD lab tests were on children.
A few innocent people continue to rot in prison in the United States and elsewhere.
In our quest to avoid losing our compassion for victims, we must also avoid allowing our understandable emotions to blind us to the truth.
Good post, nightimmer. I too have to cringe when I read the two links. These articles serve as a "hammer to my head" reminding me that so much goes on outside of my blessed, well-controlled family life. And to think these are the examples we know of... 
My faith plays a big part in helping me get through these kinds of things though I must admit when faced with the utter depravity of it all my faith is the very thing I almost lose. I find little resolution in trying to make sense of it even with my belief in God though intellectually I grapple to fit it into some neat "box".
The very real belief that we are all brothers/sisters coupled with these types of horrific examples do remind me of my growing conviction (over the last 2+ decades) that attaining the American dream (creature comforts, optimum health, immediate family out of harms way, and the like) is not enough. I must say that I experience a growing kinship with others around me that compels me to help out a fellow brother who struggles to make ends meet for his family, a single mother lamenting the gradual loss of her own children to drugs, a teenager who is frustrated with the world, or a pre-schooler who needs an adult to brighten their day and help them to forget, if just for a moment, their dreary circumstances at home.
I say keep your focus on those things you do have meaningful control over (i.e., what goes on within the walls of your own home, your own neighborhood, and your own community). Too much wringing of our hands about the atrocities of the world (atrocities that will never cease) will only serve to callous us and worse, distract us from the priceless stewardship we face every day within our own families. Teach your own children (or children in the community) of the blessings they enjoy and encourage them to take the torch from you when your "time has come".
It also helps to know that I am not the only one who finds no peace in the face of such discouragement...
My faith plays a big part in helping me get through these kinds of things though I must admit when faced with the utter depravity of it all my faith is the very thing I almost lose. I find little resolution in trying to make sense of it even with my belief in God though intellectually I grapple to fit it into some neat "box".
The very real belief that we are all brothers/sisters coupled with these types of horrific examples do remind me of my growing conviction (over the last 2+ decades) that attaining the American dream (creature comforts, optimum health, immediate family out of harms way, and the like) is not enough. I must say that I experience a growing kinship with others around me that compels me to help out a fellow brother who struggles to make ends meet for his family, a single mother lamenting the gradual loss of her own children to drugs, a teenager who is frustrated with the world, or a pre-schooler who needs an adult to brighten their day and help them to forget, if just for a moment, their dreary circumstances at home.
I say keep your focus on those things you do have meaningful control over (i.e., what goes on within the walls of your own home, your own neighborhood, and your own community). Too much wringing of our hands about the atrocities of the world (atrocities that will never cease) will only serve to callous us and worse, distract us from the priceless stewardship we face every day within our own families. Teach your own children (or children in the community) of the blessings they enjoy and encourage them to take the torch from you when your "time has come".
It also helps to know that I am not the only one who finds no peace in the face of such discouragement...
QUOTE(nighttimer @ Feb 10 2007, 11:05 PM) 
How do you avoid becoming numb to the acts of brutality and cruelty directed against children?
Do you ever? Who's reading these stories and thinking, eh big deal?
I am going to have stay away from posting my thoughts on these because many of them are illegal, murderous and contain all the bad words this site blocks. There's a whole section revolving around a super extraordinary rendition in it for these guys.
I don't think you can get numb to stories like these. Just violently psychotic.
How do you avoid becoming numb to the acts of brutality and cruelty directed against children?
Many years ago, when I thought at that time that I had just heard the absolute worst story of a crime against a child, in my reading I ran across a paragraph which I think perfectly applies to the daily horror stories we hear.
"He tells me yes, the sky can surely fall. Yes, the worse demons in your mind can appear in person before you. Yes, things more horrible than you can imagine can happen, are even bound to happen; if not to you, then to the other fellow. But you have to pretend you don't possess this knowledge, he says. Otherwise you couldn't live a single sane, untroubled hour." Author Unknown
Hopefully, we will never become numb to these acts against children! But it is becoming increasingly difficult to listen to the daily details of yet another atrocity. If I posted what I really think should be done with these perpetrators, I would be thrown off AD forever! We can only hope these persons will eventually get what they truly deserve in the end!
I am glad you posted this as a debate topic nighttimer. I always seems I get pounced on by many of those on the left when I post about tough sentencing for those who commit crimes against children, sexual and abusive/murder. Although we have many differences, this is one where we can agree.
In answer to your debate question. If you have an understanding that there are truly bad/evil people in this world you can avoid becoming numb to this sort of vile acts against children. There are many people out there who have a "so what" attitude about it. For example in the past, I had posted a topic about mandatory 25 year sentencing for people who commit sexual crimes against children. There were quite a few people against it!!
This is an example of people becoming numb to vile acts against children when they don't want to punish the criminal with very tough sentencing.
In answer to your debate question. If you have an understanding that there are truly bad/evil people in this world you can avoid becoming numb to this sort of vile acts against children. There are many people out there who have a "so what" attitude about it. For example in the past, I had posted a topic about mandatory 25 year sentencing for people who commit sexual crimes against children. There were quite a few people against it!!
This is an example of people becoming numb to vile acts against children when they don't want to punish the criminal with very tough sentencing.
How do you avoid becoming numb to the acts of brutality and cruelty directed against children?
I tend to avoid these stories because I can’t be numb to them, but you can’t insulate yourself from it if you’re a news buff. The last child sex abuse story I bookmarked is a few weeks old.
The girl, Srey, 6, has HIV. She was sold by parents to a brothel when she was 5. It’s not uncommon for Cambodian families struggling to feed themselves to sell their daughters. I wonder if, in that desperation, families reason they’re putting off her death by a few months, a few years, and actually doing her a favor. I also ask myself what is it sexual predators get out of it. Children aren’t equipped to handle sex. They may as well be having sex with a watermelon. Do they get off on the howls?
Many sex abuse children know their attackers. Many of them refuse to take the stand and the state can’t make them testify in court. On top of that, there isn't always a rape kit available. It’s easier to call us numb than consider why the judge should have some flexibility in sentencing the perp under these circumstances.
I tend to avoid these stories because I can’t be numb to them, but you can’t insulate yourself from it if you’re a news buff. The last child sex abuse story I bookmarked is a few weeks old.
QUOTE(CNN)
One girl at Somaly's shelter appears especially disturbed. She was rescued after being imprisoned for two years in a cage, where she was repeatedly raped.
The girl, Srey, 6, has HIV. She was sold by parents to a brothel when she was 5. It’s not uncommon for Cambodian families struggling to feed themselves to sell their daughters. I wonder if, in that desperation, families reason they’re putting off her death by a few months, a few years, and actually doing her a favor. I also ask myself what is it sexual predators get out of it. Children aren’t equipped to handle sex. They may as well be having sex with a watermelon. Do they get off on the howls?
QUOTE(Sleeper @ Feb 11 2007, 12:55 PM)
For example in the past, I had posted a topic about mandatory 25 year sentencing for people who commit sexual crimes against children. There were quite a few people against it! This is an example of people becoming numb to vile acts against children when they don't want to punish the criminal with very tough sentencing.
Many sex abuse children know their attackers. Many of them refuse to take the stand and the state can’t make them testify in court. On top of that, there isn't always a rape kit available. It’s easier to call us numb than consider why the judge should have some flexibility in sentencing the perp under these circumstances.
QUOTE(Lesly @ Feb 11 2007, 01:08 PM)
Many sex abuse children know their attackers. Many of them refuse to take the stand and the state can’t make them testify in court. On top of that, there isn't always a rape kit available. It’s easier to call us numb than consider why the judge should have some flexibility in sentencing the perp under these circumstances.
Well in my eyes there is no "flexibility" when an individual sexually assaults a 7 year old. That to me is being numb when you are not outraged at a judge who gives this type a criminal sentence which has no jail time at all. (Note: This comment is in regard to other cases, not the ones in nighttimers opening post)
How do you avoid becoming numb to the acts of brutality and cruelty directed against children?
I just look at progression to avoid such. Previous generations always leave troubles behind them, from racism to warfare to I guess issues like global warming.
I mean in one hundred years from now most everything currently alive today will be dead and another entire population of the living will inherit whatever the earth happens to be. Tracking events and attempting to explore there impact they hold is not always easy of course, such as what’s going on in Iraq right now with the U.S and Iran for instance.
Historical problems like this, or warfare again for example always leave a heavy negative appearance of people in my eyes but then I guess I have to equate them to positive events that take place in order to not become numb or uncaring about people in general.
I can hope to leave the world a better place then I found it, one where emo music does not need to exist for instance. You can speculate on why youth would create such a sobbing and depressive form of music and I would imagine it goes with the increasing levels of stress modern life holds.
Personally when world populations triple I don’t want to know what kind of place will be left for children if we are still surviving the in same ways actually.
I just look at progression to avoid such. Previous generations always leave troubles behind them, from racism to warfare to I guess issues like global warming.
I mean in one hundred years from now most everything currently alive today will be dead and another entire population of the living will inherit whatever the earth happens to be. Tracking events and attempting to explore there impact they hold is not always easy of course, such as what’s going on in Iraq right now with the U.S and Iran for instance.
Historical problems like this, or warfare again for example always leave a heavy negative appearance of people in my eyes but then I guess I have to equate them to positive events that take place in order to not become numb or uncaring about people in general.
I can hope to leave the world a better place then I found it, one where emo music does not need to exist for instance. You can speculate on why youth would create such a sobbing and depressive form of music and I would imagine it goes with the increasing levels of stress modern life holds.
Personally when world populations triple I don’t want to know what kind of place will be left for children if we are still surviving the in same ways actually.
QUOTE(Victoria Silverwolf)
In our quest to avoid losing our compassion for victims, we must also avoid allowing our understandable emotions to blind us to the truth.
I was just curious about this statement you made VS. Exactly what truths would our emotions blind us from in the two examples that nighttimer gave us?
QUOTE(Sleeper @ Feb 12 2007, 12:12 AM)
QUOTE(Victoria Silverwolf)
In our quest to avoid losing our compassion for victims, we must also avoid allowing our understandable emotions to blind us to the truth.
I was just curious about this statement you made VS. Exactly what truths would our emotions blind us from in the two examples that nighttimer gave us?
Well, my statement was intended to be more general. However, let's consider the first case. Like or or not, based on the linked article alone, we must assume that Wiliiam Lorenzo Page is innocent until prioven guilty. What we cannot do, no matter how tempting it might be, is to move outside the justice system, as imperfect as it is.
QUOTE(Sleeper @ Feb 11 2007, 12:55 PM)
I am glad you posted this as a debate topic nighttimer. I always seems I get pounced on by many of those on the left when I post about tough sentencing for those who commit crimes against children, sexual and abusive/murder. Although we have many differences, this is one where we can agree.
Perhaps it's because being a father myself I am overly sensitive to the plight of victimized children. Perhaps I'm not so hardened by the coldness of the world that the idea of a 23-month old freezing to death alone in the dark cannot still bring me to tears and then a blazing rage.
I am in favor of zero tolerance for child pornographers, child sex traffickers and those whom molest and kill children. The only caveat is I would take into account whether the perpetrator of these heinous crimes were themselves victims of sexual abuse. Otherwise, I'd be willing to lock some of these maggots away in a hole so deep sunlight would have to be piped down to them.
QUOTE(Victoria Silverwolf @ Feb 12 2007, 01:24 AM)
Like or or not, based on the linked article alone, we must assume that Wiliiam Lorenzo Page is innocent until prioven guilty. What we cannot do, no matter how tempting it might be, is to move outside the justice system, as imperfect as it is.
My dear Victoria Silverwolf, normally I would share your hope that the legal system will have its day, but sometimes all the legal system does is serve the law and not justice.
I have no doubt that Mr. Page will have his day in court. His whole sorry life story will be dragged out with the hope that someone on the jury will take pity upon him and spare him either life imprisonment or the death penalty. It should be a real three-hankie affair.
Then the prosecutor should show the jurors the crime scene photos of Nyia Page lying face down and frozen in the snow, followed by the footprints her tiny, frostbitten feet made as she wandered about shivering, confused and frightened.
The deliberations should take about 30 minutes. It really would only take five, but give it an extra 25 minutes to make it look like it wasn't a totally forgone conclusion.
Any death penalty would not be harsh enough. A more fitting remedy would be to strip William Page naked and feed him to the general prison population. Even in prison there is social stratification and child killers and rapists are at the bottom of the food chain. I'd let the prison system correct this problem like a self-cleaning oven. He'd probably wouldn't last longer than Nyia did.
He deserves the same mercy he showed his own daughter and that's no mercy at all.
QUOTE
How do you avoid becoming numb to the acts of brutality and cruelty directed against children?
A person can do something-being aware is a big part of it. Not turning a blind eye towards similar situations should they arise around you and knowing how to contact state health and human services if you think it's warranted is a good example. I presently work for the state at a credit recovery school and I work with a lot of students in state custody for whatever reason. I've made it a priority in my life to help others and I'm lucky that I can incorporate that into my professional life. A lot of their stories are unbelievable, but I've seen some great things come about through intervention. I've seen kids graduate or get the GED, I've also seen them released to parents or foster parents, getting the love and attention they deserve. There are "bad" things out there, you also need to see the "good" and work to be a part of it through work or volunteer efforts. Outside of that, I guess that a person should try and be a model for those around them. It all starts at home.
In regards to the people who hurt children-I would say that those who abuse have been abused as well in their own youth. It's a matter of pathology, deep-rooted that blinds people to their actions. Call it "karma" or "live by the sword, die by the sword," but I don't believe that people get away with their actions. It just appears that way from an outsiders view. I believe they suffer mentally, and that up to to their death, they get back what they started through anuish, pain, humiliation, or maltreatment from others.
QUOTE
In regards to the people who hurt children-I would say that those who abuse have been abused as well in their own youth.
This is a very sad and tired excuse. And that is exactly what you are doing by making such a statement, excusing their behavior when they abuse or even kill a child. I concede there are some areas in US policy where the liberal idea is what is best for our country, but the liberal ideology just does not fly when it comes to punishing perpetrators of such violent crimes against children.
QUOTE
In regards to the people who hurt children-I would say that those who abuse have been abused as well in their own youth.
QUOTE
This is a very sad and tired excuse. And that is exactly what you are doing by making such a statement, excusing their behavior when they abuse or even kill a child.
Not every social ill is a left/right problem, nor is it perpetuated by either side as is being alluding to.
You present no evidence against my contention that most child abusers were themselves, abused. Instead, you go with a broad generalization that is not supported by facts. Source, after source, after source clearly shows that it is generational for the most part, hence my commentary. The second "source" hyperlink should interest you as it's from the Heritage Foundation, liberal, I know, but the generational pathology idea is somewhat conservative in origin. Furthermore, you left out the entire second half of my comment, which in no way excuses their behavior. Child abusers are blind to their actions(either willfully or by blocking it out if they do have a shred of conscience in some cases) and it is my contention that anyone who does bad things, does not lead a cheery life and that their behavior(i.e.-karma, whatever you want to call it) gets them in the end. I admit that is pure speculation on my part, but an excuse it is not.
How do you avoid becoming numb to the acts of brutality and cruelty directed against children?
Do I have a choice?
Last wednesday I was at the hospital and as I was getting ready to leave, unlocking my mountain bike in the car park, a family passed me by, Mom, Dad, a daughter and a pale, bald child in a wheel chair. I had just enough strength to wait until they were out of sight before I crouched down and cried. It didn't last long. Just long enough for me to gather my wits and carry on my way.
Years ago, I was lying in a hospital bed in the orthopedic ward, in greater pain than I'd ever imagined. It was night time and the morphine was wearing off, but what kept me awake was the screaming of the deformed five year old in the next room. A few days later I hobbled past the open door and saw the childs mother's face. I can still see her if I want to because I'll probably never forget that face.
So, now here is a case where a man has beaten a child and thrown her into the snow to die. I wonder at life's pointless brutality and I can't reconcile myself to it. I saw a nature programme once where a pack of African wild dogs tore an antelope to pieces. They ripped its guts from it and ate them even as the antelope wss still struggling to get away. The dogs had their muzzles inside the antelope, disemboelling it even as it was still trying to run away. I felt nothing beyond fascination until its bladder was torn open and a small cascade of urine erupted into the air. Then I realised. That urine was familiar, physically. I was the same as those animals, the antelope and the dogs.
Because thats us, we're also animated meat that passes urine. We occupy the same life, the same reality. We see, speak, think and feel. Essentially the two year old child who dies alone in the snow is no different from the antelope. I know one can argue that the father and the dogs were just following base instincts but it doesn't make me feel any different about it all. The implacable horror of it does not differentiate between African wild dogs and abusive human beings. For all our vaunted souls, there is no dividing line. Life is evil and so, apparently, are we. I could rave at God if I had 'faith', but I don't. I have nothing to cling to, no way to explain why life is so horrible to some and not to others.
For most of my life, I've had unusual dreams. Dreams which by my understanding are 'psychotic'. I've never understood these dreams, or had any influence over them, but many times I've dreamt of murder and not just simple murder, but the sort of red armed blood fest that one normally associates with African wild dogs. I have always supposed that these dreams are some how connected to a deeply buried primordial instinct, but since I've never know for sure, I've often wondered if my mind has always been a bit 'unhinged'.
I've also had my share of pain in life, but essentially I've survived intact. Now I can see my daughter blossoming into life and I know the many horrors that await her and I am essentially powerless to keep her safe. Every day she lives now is one day closer to her eventual death and I can only hope that I do not live to see it. I know she must die, as must we all, it may be today, or it may be in a hundred and ten years time. I can't know, so I must live with the uncertainty. I don't even know what I'd do if some one hurt her. Would I react like a rational human being or would those dreams come to pass? What if she develops cancer and I'm the man wheeling a bald child into the hospital?
Being 'numb' is not something I've never been able to do, and although my sanguine nature is dulled with age, my empathy for broken children seems so overwhelming that I cannot even understand it. I see millions of African children starving to death and dying of AIDS, Malaria, war and it reminds me of the Holocaust or when my Dad poured boiling water into an ant nest that had gotten in his way. Life is either a sick joke or it has no purpose what so ever and every good day is a treasure to enjoy whilst it lasts. I don't understand what morality is or why we bother with it since it only seems to serve to make us weak.
Do I have a choice?
Last wednesday I was at the hospital and as I was getting ready to leave, unlocking my mountain bike in the car park, a family passed me by, Mom, Dad, a daughter and a pale, bald child in a wheel chair. I had just enough strength to wait until they were out of sight before I crouched down and cried. It didn't last long. Just long enough for me to gather my wits and carry on my way.
Years ago, I was lying in a hospital bed in the orthopedic ward, in greater pain than I'd ever imagined. It was night time and the morphine was wearing off, but what kept me awake was the screaming of the deformed five year old in the next room. A few days later I hobbled past the open door and saw the childs mother's face. I can still see her if I want to because I'll probably never forget that face.
So, now here is a case where a man has beaten a child and thrown her into the snow to die. I wonder at life's pointless brutality and I can't reconcile myself to it. I saw a nature programme once where a pack of African wild dogs tore an antelope to pieces. They ripped its guts from it and ate them even as the antelope wss still struggling to get away. The dogs had their muzzles inside the antelope, disemboelling it even as it was still trying to run away. I felt nothing beyond fascination until its bladder was torn open and a small cascade of urine erupted into the air. Then I realised. That urine was familiar, physically. I was the same as those animals, the antelope and the dogs.
Because thats us, we're also animated meat that passes urine. We occupy the same life, the same reality. We see, speak, think and feel. Essentially the two year old child who dies alone in the snow is no different from the antelope. I know one can argue that the father and the dogs were just following base instincts but it doesn't make me feel any different about it all. The implacable horror of it does not differentiate between African wild dogs and abusive human beings. For all our vaunted souls, there is no dividing line. Life is evil and so, apparently, are we. I could rave at God if I had 'faith', but I don't. I have nothing to cling to, no way to explain why life is so horrible to some and not to others.
For most of my life, I've had unusual dreams. Dreams which by my understanding are 'psychotic'. I've never understood these dreams, or had any influence over them, but many times I've dreamt of murder and not just simple murder, but the sort of red armed blood fest that one normally associates with African wild dogs. I have always supposed that these dreams are some how connected to a deeply buried primordial instinct, but since I've never know for sure, I've often wondered if my mind has always been a bit 'unhinged'.
I've also had my share of pain in life, but essentially I've survived intact. Now I can see my daughter blossoming into life and I know the many horrors that await her and I am essentially powerless to keep her safe. Every day she lives now is one day closer to her eventual death and I can only hope that I do not live to see it. I know she must die, as must we all, it may be today, or it may be in a hundred and ten years time. I can't know, so I must live with the uncertainty. I don't even know what I'd do if some one hurt her. Would I react like a rational human being or would those dreams come to pass? What if she develops cancer and I'm the man wheeling a bald child into the hospital?
Being 'numb' is not something I've never been able to do, and although my sanguine nature is dulled with age, my empathy for broken children seems so overwhelming that I cannot even understand it. I see millions of African children starving to death and dying of AIDS, Malaria, war and it reminds me of the Holocaust or when my Dad poured boiling water into an ant nest that had gotten in his way. Life is either a sick joke or it has no purpose what so ever and every good day is a treasure to enjoy whilst it lasts. I don't understand what morality is or why we bother with it since it only seems to serve to make us weak.
QUOTE(nebraska29 @ Feb 12 2007, 08:40 PM)
Furthermore, you left out the entire second half of my comment, which in no way excuses their behavior. Child abusers are blind to their actions(either willfully or by blocking it out if they do have a shred of conscience in some cases) and it is my contention that anyone who does bad things, does not lead a cheery life and that their behavior(i.e.-karma, whatever you want to call it) gets them in the end. I admit that is pure speculation on my part, but an excuse it is not.
Who cares if they don't lead a "cheery" life
... They still need the harshest form of punishment that can be administered. I like nighttimer's suggestion of being put into the general population of a prison where child abusers/rapist don't last long. Death by Gen-pop... I like it
QUOTE(nebraska29 @ Feb 12 2007, 11:48 AM)
In regards to the people who hurt children-I would say that those who abuse have been abused as well in their own youth.
Gotta tell ya... don't care. Too bad. There isn't enough violence you can do to the people cited in this thread. The "wah wah wah" I was abused meme has no meaning in cases like this. There is no excuse. None.
You know, the responses here are untypical AD. Knee-jerk reactions, flying off the handle, and backing up nothing. Nowhere do I say that these people should get away with it. The root cause is the root cause. I pointed it out as stating that while it may appear that some may "get away with it," in reality, they don't. I will say that there is hope for young folks who have been abused, and who have acted out on siblings or cousins themselves. After 18 or so, it is my belief that we should house them in the old state hospitals, in my state-known as regional centers.
How do you avoid becoming numb to the acts of brutality and cruelty directed against children?
I can honestly say I've never felt compassion in the sense you've described towards children. I feel neither happiness nor sadness or sympathy of any kind. At best there is merely disappointment with the parents. Out of all the things that bother me this is not one of them. Sorry, no numbness here.
I can honestly say I've never felt compassion in the sense you've described towards children. I feel neither happiness nor sadness or sympathy of any kind. At best there is merely disappointment with the parents. Out of all the things that bother me this is not one of them. Sorry, no numbness here.
How do you avoid becoming numb to the acts of brutality and cruelty directed against children?
Perspective. As horrific, vile, monsterous, evil, or whatever term you can think of that still doesn't describe how bad it was, it makes the national news.
Equally bad things happen all over the world and the world barely notices. 100 children like this could be killed in Dafur today, but Joe Sixpack hardly notices. Some evil bastard does something like this in America, everybody knows and everybody wants justice.
If anything positive could come of this, it would be a reminder of how rare this type of evil behavior exists in our society. Not every country in the world could say this.
Perspective. As horrific, vile, monsterous, evil, or whatever term you can think of that still doesn't describe how bad it was, it makes the national news.
Equally bad things happen all over the world and the world barely notices. 100 children like this could be killed in Dafur today, but Joe Sixpack hardly notices. Some evil bastard does something like this in America, everybody knows and everybody wants justice.
If anything positive could come of this, it would be a reminder of how rare this type of evil behavior exists in our society. Not every country in the world could say this.
How do you avoid becoming numb to the acts of brutality and cruelty directed against children?
I think most parents would agree that once you have kids it's hard to be numbed to the brutality that is directed at children, in any form. It's disturbing to know that out in the world there is so much exploitation and abuse of children. I think the more we do to help children, whether we are parents or not, the less inclined we will be to become apathetic to the injustices. I saw Daryl Hannah on the news recently. She's been working undercover to help uncover the sexual expoitation of children in Asia. I applaud her efforts. It's not an easy subject to talk about, much less do something about. Most people in the world are decent people who do not have ill-intentions for others. That's what I keep telling myself.
I think most parents would agree that once you have kids it's hard to be numbed to the brutality that is directed at children, in any form. It's disturbing to know that out in the world there is so much exploitation and abuse of children. I think the more we do to help children, whether we are parents or not, the less inclined we will be to become apathetic to the injustices. I saw Daryl Hannah on the news recently. She's been working undercover to help uncover the sexual expoitation of children in Asia. I applaud her efforts. It's not an easy subject to talk about, much less do something about. Most people in the world are decent people who do not have ill-intentions for others. That's what I keep telling myself.
QUOTE
The Question for Debate:
How do you avoid becoming numb to the acts of brutality and cruelty directed against children?
How do you avoid becoming numb to the acts of brutality and cruelty directed against children?
In the international arena you can’t. Just not possible to tell governments that they must protect the children of their country better. The US government, Bill Gates Foundation and many others give billion a year to help but it amy be just a drop in the bucket.
In the US people like Bill O’Reilly champion causes like Jessica’s Law and he regularly goes after judges who let sexual predators of children off the hook. More folks need to join him.
How do you avoid becoming numb to the acts of brutality and cruelty directed against children?
I don't, and don't ever want too. Neither do I want to become numb to the acts of abuse of any and all. What I do is fight it all from the only viewpoint with which I am familiar, and some would say capable" that of "The Scientific Method". (It' my own personal limitation I know, but it' all I got!!)
So far that view/effort it telling me we have a multi-generational and multi-societal problem at the base core of these "iniquities", that are both educational, (Actually it's an educational that is non education and the propagation of things "not so very true".), and subconscious. It takes way more than a "Village or local politics" to address, but a "Whole World View" effort to make any progress.
And it's in the hands of us the people, yet once again! Only for me this time its "Think locally; but act globally"!
I don't, and don't ever want too. Neither do I want to become numb to the acts of abuse of any and all. What I do is fight it all from the only viewpoint with which I am familiar, and some would say capable" that of "The Scientific Method". (It' my own personal limitation I know, but it' all I got!!)
So far that view/effort it telling me we have a multi-generational and multi-societal problem at the base core of these "iniquities", that are both educational, (Actually it's an educational that is non education and the propagation of things "not so very true".), and subconscious. It takes way more than a "Village or local politics" to address, but a "Whole World View" effort to make any progress.
And it's in the hands of us the people, yet once again! Only for me this time its "Think locally; but act globally"!
An unfortunate event happened that reminded me of this thread. A 15 year old girl and her 18 year old boyfriend(yeah, what a winner he must be) stabbed to death the girl's mother and 5 year old child. the 5 year old was the 15 year old's half-sister. You can read about the story here,here, and here.
Excellent point-while I knew of such events and was horrified before I had kids, it does add a greater sense of understanding to a given case of abuse or neglect. :'(
Another excellent point. There is a ton of thing people can do with their own interests and talents to help children. Volunteering, coaching, and mentoring are but a few for those who have the time and interest to do so. This happens a lot more than you think, it just doesn't garner a lot of press attention as say, the horrible plight of Paris Hilton and how society picks on her.
QUOTE
I think most parents would agree that once you have kids it's hard to be numbed to the brutality that is directed at children, in any form.
Excellent point-while I knew of such events and was horrified before I had kids, it does add a greater sense of understanding to a given case of abuse or neglect. :'(
QUOTE
Most people in the world are decent people who do not have ill-intentions for others. That's what I keep telling myself.
Another excellent point. There is a ton of thing people can do with their own interests and talents to help children. Volunteering, coaching, and mentoring are but a few for those who have the time and interest to do so. This happens a lot more than you think, it just doesn't garner a lot of press attention as say, the horrible plight of Paris Hilton and how society picks on her.
There never is a shortage of outrages against children and here is a particularly appalling example:
GALVESTON, Texas - A woman believed to be the mother of a 2-year-old whose body was found in Galveston Bay told police she and the girl’s stepfather beat and tortured the child to death, court documents show.
The details, in a statement Kimberly Dawn Trenor gave to police, paint a chilling picture of the last days of the girl investigators called “Baby Grace” as they worked for weeks to learn her identity.
Investigators are awaiting DNA test results but said Monday they are “fairly confident” that the body a fisherman found in a plastic box Oct. 29 is that of Riley Ann Sawyers. Trenor, 19, and her husband, Royce Clyde Zeigler II, were in custody on charges of hurting the girl.
The girl was beaten with leather belts, had her head held underwater in a bathtub and then was thrown across a room, her head slamming into a tile floor, Trenor said in the document. She said they kept the body in a storage shed for one to two months before they put it in a plastic bin and dumped it into Galveston Bay. link
All I'd like is one hour alone with these two dirtbags along with a metal baseball bat.
Rest in peace "Baby Grace." May you find a peace in death you never knew in your all-too brief and painful life.
GALVESTON, Texas - A woman believed to be the mother of a 2-year-old whose body was found in Galveston Bay told police she and the girl’s stepfather beat and tortured the child to death, court documents show.
The details, in a statement Kimberly Dawn Trenor gave to police, paint a chilling picture of the last days of the girl investigators called “Baby Grace” as they worked for weeks to learn her identity.
Investigators are awaiting DNA test results but said Monday they are “fairly confident” that the body a fisherman found in a plastic box Oct. 29 is that of Riley Ann Sawyers. Trenor, 19, and her husband, Royce Clyde Zeigler II, were in custody on charges of hurting the girl.
The girl was beaten with leather belts, had her head held underwater in a bathtub and then was thrown across a room, her head slamming into a tile floor, Trenor said in the document. She said they kept the body in a storage shed for one to two months before they put it in a plastic bin and dumped it into Galveston Bay. link
All I'd like is one hour alone with these two dirtbags along with a metal baseball bat.
Rest in peace "Baby Grace." May you find a peace in death you never knew in your all-too brief and painful life.
I work around these kinds of poeple every day. Sometimes, I think my soul is stained by thier sins. You have no idea what it is like to sit next to a person like this, day in and day out, to get inside thier mind so you can determine for the courts whether they are competent and culpable- Alaska has good law here, so they usually will do hard time, forever, but I have to help the state prove that. I know I am doing good by being proffessional, and never letting anyone on the "floor" see anything but my flat-affect self in dealing with these poeple. My co-workers and I vent to each other all the time to keep from getting burnt out or harmed ourselves, but after 20 years, I am in engineering school, and am changing careers. The pay is good, but the psychic spill over is harmfull.
Oh wow. Now my day is ruined.
How do you avoid becoming numb to the acts of brutality and cruelty directed against children?
You don't. You see these children, their faces plastered against milk cartons, and missing persons lists, and you hear their horrifying stories, tales of fathers who abuse, mothers who murder, and uncles and aunts, grandmothers and grandfathers, who, for some inexcusable reason or another, took it upon themselves to kill their offspring.
And it hurts. That's the point of it. You hate these people, you are disgusted by them. They took lives, entrusted into their care, and beat them, drowned them, buried them, burned them.
Its a wake-up call. Humanity is in no way hunky-dory. Numbing yourself to this particular avenue of pain is like ignoring the migraines and fluttering pulse before a stroke.
How do you avoid becoming numb to the acts of brutality and cruelty directed against children?
You don't. You see these children, their faces plastered against milk cartons, and missing persons lists, and you hear their horrifying stories, tales of fathers who abuse, mothers who murder, and uncles and aunts, grandmothers and grandfathers, who, for some inexcusable reason or another, took it upon themselves to kill their offspring.
And it hurts. That's the point of it. You hate these people, you are disgusted by them. They took lives, entrusted into their care, and beat them, drowned them, buried them, burned them.
Its a wake-up call. Humanity is in no way hunky-dory. Numbing yourself to this particular avenue of pain is like ignoring the migraines and fluttering pulse before a stroke.
QUOTE(nighttimer @ Feb 12 2007, 06:53 AM)
Perhaps it's because being a father myself I am overly sensitive to the plight of victimized children. Perhaps I'm not so hardened by the coldness of the world that the idea of a 23-month old freezing to death alone in the dark cannot still bring me to tears and then a blazing rage.
I am in favor of zero tolerance for child pornographers, child sex traffickers and those whom molest and kill children. The only caveat is I would take into account whether the perpetrator of these heinous crimes were themselves victims of sexual abuse. Otherwise, I'd be willing to lock some of these maggots away in a hole so deep sunlight would have to be piped down to them.
I am in favor of zero tolerance for child pornographers, child sex traffickers and those whom molest and kill children. The only caveat is I would take into account whether the perpetrator of these heinous crimes were themselves victims of sexual abuse. Otherwise, I'd be willing to lock some of these maggots away in a hole so deep sunlight would have to be piped down to them.
Amen man.
Funny enough, I just watched a documentary last night on the Aryan Brotherhood, which is wrought with violence and sick people. It centered mostly on its activities in jail, and funny enough, they refused to admit Charles Manson into their ranks because he killed/ordered the killing of a pregnant woman. Even the nastiest (or one of) prison gang in the US has morals that avoid killing kids.
Also, ironically, in prison in general they don't tolerate such abuses and many of these offenders are segregated.
In reference to direct negligence, or killing their own children, why does the world need these people?
The dude that left a 2 yr old outside to freeze should suffer the same fate. Children, the elderly, the handicapped, etc all rely on us to ensure their safety. People that force these hands on people deserve the same fate.
Do we not think that if that man who killed his own kid knew that he would suffer a painful and agonizing fate, if caught, that he might've thought twice?
Maybe some of these nut jobs don't think about that. Then again, maybe some do. Even if 1 in 100 reconsiders his/her actions and doesn't do it because of the consequence would make a horrible death penalty scenario effective.
Of course, in the US, we'd never allow a painful death penalty. However- what about putting these people in the general population prisons and turning a blind eye to what happens to them? Then we could have "60 minutes specials" about the fate of child murderers and molesters! Maybe then, just maybe, after someone knew what happened to people who commited these crimes in prison, they'd stop what they have intended. Maybe not, but at least they'd get what they truly deserve.
Aevans, you are speaking from anger. And hey, that can be a good thing. Some of my best debates were really rip-roaring angry ones. But not this particular time.
These people are the scum of the earth. That does not mean we can stoop to their level. We, at least, can show the world that we are still in possession of our wits, even when the basest of our individuals seem to go mad. The draconian laws that you propose hurt the ship of American Statemanship, far more than it hurts the sex-offenders.
We will lock them up. That much we can promise. They will hurt no one, ever again. But under no circumstances must we become like them. And thus, we cannot, must not do unto them what they do unto us.
These people are the scum of the earth. That does not mean we can stoop to their level. We, at least, can show the world that we are still in possession of our wits, even when the basest of our individuals seem to go mad. The draconian laws that you propose hurt the ship of American Statemanship, far more than it hurts the sex-offenders.
We will lock them up. That much we can promise. They will hurt no one, ever again. But under no circumstances must we become like them. And thus, we cannot, must not do unto them what they do unto us.
QUOTE
Aevans, you are speaking from anger. And hey, that can be a good thing. Some of my best debates were really rip-roaring angry ones. But not this particular time.
You can't have a topic like this without having strong emotion. And frankly if you have no emotion in regards to children being treated this way I would question your own humanity.
By removing people like this from society we are not stooping to their level, we are merely eradicating as problem from society. By keeping them locked up in jail they become a drain on our resources.
So we kill them. Doesn't that imply a lack of emotion on yourpart?
They disregard the value of a human life. Does that give us leave to do the same?
They disregard the value of a human life. Does that give us leave to do the same?
QUOTE(akalae @ Nov 27 2007, 12:39 PM)
So we kill them. Doesn't that imply a lack of emotion on yourpart?
They disregard the value of a human life. Does that give us leave to do the same?
They disregard the value of a human life. Does that give us leave to do the same?
Seems to me you are placing the same amount of value on their life as you would the life of the innocent child or children they killed.
When you willfully take the life of another human being you forfeit your right to your own life, especially in the instance of a child. At least in my eyes.
And, in your eyes, it is perfectly permissible to sacrifice the laws of state and nation, in order to put a single demographic of dangerous criminals behind bars.
Do you think I wouldn't love the chance to put these ++++++++ into an electric chair? They are, as i have already said, scum. But our nation is not. The laws that keep these men and women from being killed protect you as well, to an extent. When governments learn to disregard huan life, they do not do so merely in one field, but in all of them.
Are you familiar with draconus? In his perfect world, there were no victims or aggressors, only corpses. Remember, Sleeper, laws that effect sex offenders effect every other field of the criminal, and possibly civilian sectors.
We rely on our justice department to mete out the quality for which it is named. Let us not usurp their position, merely to vent our vindictive anger on a few miserable +++++++s.
Do you think I wouldn't love the chance to put these ++++++++ into an electric chair? They are, as i have already said, scum. But our nation is not. The laws that keep these men and women from being killed protect you as well, to an extent. When governments learn to disregard huan life, they do not do so merely in one field, but in all of them.
Are you familiar with draconus? In his perfect world, there were no victims or aggressors, only corpses. Remember, Sleeper, laws that effect sex offenders effect every other field of the criminal, and possibly civilian sectors.
We rely on our justice department to mete out the quality for which it is named. Let us not usurp their position, merely to vent our vindictive anger on a few miserable +++++++s.
QUOTE(akalae @ Nov 27 2007, 01:11 PM)
And, in your eyes, it is perfectly permissible to sacrifice the laws of state and nation, in order to put a single demographic of dangerous criminals behind bars.
Do you think I wouldn't love the chance to put these ++++++++ into an electric chair? They are, as i have already said, scum. But our nation is not. The laws that keep these men and women from being killed protect you as well, to an extent. When governments learn to disregard huan life, they do not do so merely in one field, but in all of them.
Are you familiar with draconus? In his perfect world, there were no victims or aggressors, only corpses. Remember, Sleeper, laws that effect sex offenders effect every other field of the criminal, and possibly civilian sectors.
We rely on our justice department to mete out the quality for which it is named. Let us not usurp their position, merely to vent our vindictive anger on a few miserable +++++++s.
Do you think I wouldn't love the chance to put these ++++++++ into an electric chair? They are, as i have already said, scum. But our nation is not. The laws that keep these men and women from being killed protect you as well, to an extent. When governments learn to disregard huan life, they do not do so merely in one field, but in all of them.
Are you familiar with draconus? In his perfect world, there were no victims or aggressors, only corpses. Remember, Sleeper, laws that effect sex offenders effect every other field of the criminal, and possibly civilian sectors.
We rely on our justice department to mete out the quality for which it is named. Let us not usurp their position, merely to vent our vindictive anger on a few miserable +++++++s.
We will have to agree to disagree then. You have your perfect world and I have mine, although in mine... people who commit murder and heinous sexual acts against children end up dead.
How do you avoid becoming numb to the acts of brutality and cruelty directed against children?
I guess it depends on what triggers one's interest. I agree numbness isn't healthy but neither is getting whipped into a frenzy. The moment emotion crosses justice we end up with a distortion of both. To answer your question specifically, just talk about it with your family so that when you encounter something bad, you approach the situation in moderation.
I guess it depends on what triggers one's interest. I agree numbness isn't healthy but neither is getting whipped into a frenzy. The moment emotion crosses justice we end up with a distortion of both. To answer your question specifically, just talk about it with your family so that when you encounter something bad, you approach the situation in moderation.
QUOTE
You have your perfect world and I have mine, although in mine... people who commit murder and heinous sexual acts against children end up dead.
Because you can judge? Because you, and you alone can draw the line?
The perfect world i spoke of was that of Draco, philosopher in ancient greece. (his earlier misspelling was a typo. Ironically enough, in Draco;s greece, i might just have been beheaded for that
) He advocated the death penalty for everything, from thievery, to petty slights. He believed this to be a deterrent factor, but failed to realize, that in such a world, all citizens, would, in time, be executed. Hence, the "corpses."How can you judge? What gives you the authority? You cannot, you have none.
This nation, the combined might, and will of three-hundred-million people, must strive to act in ways both egalitarian, and just. Vengeance is satisfying, but it does not support the people.
"An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind."
I am not pushing for forgiveness. Simply for stability. If we allow our justice system to be destabilized by a few thousand abusive individuals, deprived of due process, sent instantly to the guillotine, (or whatever-it is we use these days) then these twisted men and women will have done far more damage in death than they ever did in life.
Given the news of brutal acts towards young children, I've come to the conclusion that people have not evolved beyond the caveman mentality. I suspect that Americans have too much freedom and if we're ever going to stamp out evil from society, we may need an Orwellian Government. I hope it doesn't come down to that. Wouldn't it be nice for America to go for a whole year with NO Murders period. We can't even go 1 day without a person getting murdered. And isn't true that every couple of minutes in America, a woman gets raped?
QUOTE(skeeterses)
we may need an Orwellian Government
Speaking of Orwell:
QUOTE(Nighttimer)
I can't begin to understand how sick and twisted you have to be to get off on child rape. I can think of all types of medieval punishments I'd like to inflict upon the purveyors and consumers of kiddie porn.
Without trying to make this into a whole nother discussion, simply viewing child pornography, or even searching for it on the internet, should not be illegal. That would be a thought crime. A distinction can be made between that and paying for or producing child pornography, which contribute or create harm to children, respectively.
Typically, people argue that looking at child pornography turns people into sex obsessed pedophilia monsters and thus, for the safety of society, should be banned. Once again, we need to make a distinction, this time between "can" and "will." Video games can turn teenagers into violent czars of destruction, but it doesn't mean they will. Likewise with child porn, but with the pedophilia.
Make no mistake, we should arrest the serial killers and pedophiles of the world, just not the people that view the serial killers and pedophiles.
QUOTE(Nighttimer)
How do you avoid becoming numb to the acts of brutality and cruelty directed against children?
I don't know, but I'm kind of jaded by this topic. Maybe next time maybe we can go over how bad of a demon Satan almighty is. Perhaps Osma Bin Laden?
I have extremely small, vulnerable cousins that I care deeply about. I would go ballistic if either one of them died freezing to death wandering around in the snow. Yes, by all of my subjective measures, the person that killed Nyia in such a cruel way is a less than human, vile monstrosity.
Your rekindling of our emotions to these tragic events is a noble but dangerous combination. Combining anger with powerlessness always ends up with emotional misdirection. Realistically, we, the citizens, have little to no ability to predict and prevent these tragedies. Then, without realizing our own ineffectiveness, we put all that passion into something within our control thats different. The result is always some stupid law or action that doesn't even remotely confront the problems we set out to prevent.
Take 9/11 for example. After the world trade centers fell people, powerless to strike back at the terrorist that assaulted their country, drove around targeting anyone that looked remotely Middle-Eastern.
Or, how about a more relevant example:
QUOTE(Second Life)
The news magazine documented that juvenile alter egos in the virtual community Second Life, called avatars, were being used to simulate child sex -- and being sold for virtual profits within the alternate reality platform. "We'll try to find out the name of the person responsible," Senior Prosecutor Peter Vogt of the Division for the Prevention of Child Pornography told the TV news magazine Report Mainz. "This sort of criminal activity is punishable by a term of imprisonment of between three months and five years."
Second Life
Emphasis mine.
In the end, its far, far better to be objective first and passionate second.
QUOTE(akalae @ Nov 27 2007, 09:28 PM)
QUOTE
You have your perfect world and I have mine, although in mine... people who commit murder and heinous sexual acts against children end up dead.
Because you can judge? Because you, and you alone can draw the line?
The perfect world i spoke of was that of Draco, philosopher in ancient greece. (his earlier misspelling was a typo. Ironically enough, in Draco;s greece, i might just have been beheaded for that
) He advocated the death penalty for everything, from thievery, to petty slights. He believed this to be a deterrent factor, but failed to realize, that in such a world, all citizens, would, in time, be executed. Hence, the "corpses."How can you judge? What gives you the authority? You cannot, you have none.
This nation, the combined might, and will of three-hundred-million people, must strive to act in ways both egalitarian, and just. Vengeance is satisfying, but it does not support the people.
"An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind."
I am not pushing for forgiveness. Simply for stability. If we allow our justice system to be destabilized by a few thousand abusive individuals, deprived of due process, sent instantly to the guillotine, (or whatever-it is we use these days) then these twisted men and women will have done far more damage in death than they ever did in life.
Yes I can Judge. I have no problem judging a person whole kills a child to be scum and not worthy of a continued existence.
But I believe it is your idealism that allows these people to continue to exist. Cute quotes like "An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind" , is all they are, cute quotes for an unrealistic society where everyone sings happy songs and holds hands. The evil in this world needs to be eradicated not put away under the carpet where it can fester.
The evil in this world dies a slow, wasting death, in the prisons that our government makes for them. They do so after having been arrested, found guilty by a jury of their peers, and subjected to the system that our founding fathers created to house them.
If you are so scornful of idealism, then so be it. Idealism is not what I preach. Our country demands that each and every individual, from murderer to petty thief, be allowed his say in court. Hope. Everyone is allowed a modicum of hope. Even the pedophiles, Sleeper. it is this that keeps the ship of state afloat on seas of turgid anarchy.
If you are unsatisfied with our current methods of justice, then perhaps you would be better-off taking matter into your own hands, hmm? But you will not. Because no matter how much vengeful frustration you vent in your discussion, you will still leave the job of punishing these criminals up to our justice department. Because you trust them, at least with the dirty work.
How far are you willing to sacrifice our laws, in order to kill a few, miserable brutes, unworthy of even the slightest moment of our attention? How far are you willing to rock the ship of state, for the sake of dislodging a few, insignificant vermin?
But we seem to have diverged on a tangent. NT will not be pleased. The mods...even less so.
If you are so scornful of idealism, then so be it. Idealism is not what I preach. Our country demands that each and every individual, from murderer to petty thief, be allowed his say in court. Hope. Everyone is allowed a modicum of hope. Even the pedophiles, Sleeper. it is this that keeps the ship of state afloat on seas of turgid anarchy.
If you are unsatisfied with our current methods of justice, then perhaps you would be better-off taking matter into your own hands, hmm? But you will not. Because no matter how much vengeful frustration you vent in your discussion, you will still leave the job of punishing these criminals up to our justice department. Because you trust them, at least with the dirty work.
How far are you willing to sacrifice our laws, in order to kill a few, miserable brutes, unworthy of even the slightest moment of our attention? How far are you willing to rock the ship of state, for the sake of dislodging a few, insignificant vermin?
But we seem to have diverged on a tangent. NT will not be pleased. The mods...even less so.
For your information I have taken the law into my hands on a few occasions, but I will not discuss the details.
As for NT's debate question the only way to not become numb to these sort of crimes against children is to allow yourself to be enraged by them.
As for NT's debate question the only way to not become numb to these sort of crimes against children is to allow yourself to be enraged by them.
And I will not ask, nor prod you to say anything about that. But this simply betrays another level of your obvious disdain for the laws and regulations of this country.
Where will your rage take you? How can we move forward with anything other than eyes unclouded by hate?
Hah. Very buddhist-esque, i admit. More nonsense, you would say, but there are others, like myself, who would find meaning in it.
I trust the laws. You, as I can see, do not. Thereien lies the fundamental difference between us.
Where will your rage take you? How can we move forward with anything other than eyes unclouded by hate?
Hah. Very buddhist-esque, i admit. More nonsense, you would say, but there are others, like myself, who would find meaning in it.
I trust the laws. You, as I can see, do not. Thereien lies the fundamental difference between us.
Some laws work and some do not... I will act against those who the law does not work against or merely lets them skirt by with little or no consequence.
I could never or would ever try to suppress my need to defend my children or loved ones from those who would try to harm them. That is why I will never become numb to heinous acts against children.
I could never or would ever try to suppress my need to defend my children or loved ones from those who would try to harm them. That is why I will never become numb to heinous acts against children.
To flaunt one law is to flaunt all of them. Anarchy begins with well-intentioned individuals who feel that the government "doesn't do enough."
You cannot completely discern the guilt, and measure of a man simply by reading his story on the news, or on the internet. Neither, it must be said, can a jury of his peers. But, thanks to the way our system works, chances are that fourteen people, advised by a panel of experts, are going to be one hell of a lot more accurate than an angry father with a baseball bat.
You cannot completely discern the guilt, and measure of a man simply by reading his story on the news, or on the internet. Neither, it must be said, can a jury of his peers. But, thanks to the way our system works, chances are that fourteen people, advised by a panel of experts, are going to be one hell of a lot more accurate than an angry father with a baseball bat.
QUOTE(akalae @ Nov 28 2007, 01:07 PM)
To flaunt one law is to flaunt all of them. Anarchy begins with well-intentioned individuals who feel that the government "doesn't do enough."
You cannot completely discern the guilt, and measure of a man simply by reading his story on the news, or on the internet. Neither, it must be said, can a jury of his peers. But, thanks to the way our system works, chances are that fourteen people, advised by a panel of experts, are going to be one hell of a lot more accurate than an angry father with a baseball bat.
You cannot completely discern the guilt, and measure of a man simply by reading his story on the news, or on the internet. Neither, it must be said, can a jury of his peers. But, thanks to the way our system works, chances are that fourteen people, advised by a panel of experts, are going to be one hell of a lot more accurate than an angry father with a baseball bat.
So I guess you have never gone over the posted speed limit and you are holier than thou in regards to obeying every law to the strictest measure.
Let me point out an example.. I once witnessed a grown man strike a 5 year old boy with the back of his hand at full force. 30 minutes later I was being questioned by police and was nearly arrested had it not been for witnesses saying I was defending myself. But I was defending the 5 year old boy from his abusive parent. I discerned guilt right at that moment.. and took action to prevent that boy from having anymore harm come to him, at least for that day.
And afterwards? There are countless what ifs that you fail to address. THe father, for example, might have been a bas+++, but what became of his family? DId you really do a "good deed?" What happened after his arrest? What if he just went back home after his wife posted bail, and beat his family all over again?
THe point of a fourteen-man jury is not simply justice, it is to share the blame. A judgement arbitrarily enforced by the law ensures that no single man has to be held responsible whan an "act of justice" snowballs into something far more horrific.
THe point of a fourteen-man jury is not simply justice, it is to share the blame. A judgement arbitrarily enforced by the law ensures that no single man has to be held responsible whan an "act of justice" snowballs into something far more horrific.
QUOTE(akalae @ Nov 28 2007, 01:29 PM)
And afterwards? There are countless what ifs that you fail to address. THe father, for example, might have been a bas+++, but what became of his family? DId you really do a "good deed?" What happened after his arrest? What if he just went back home after his wife posted bail, and beat his family all over again?
THe point of a fourteen-man jury is not simply justice, it is to share the blame. A judgement arbitrarily enforced by the law ensures that no single man has to be held responsible whan an "act of justice" snowballs into something far more horrific.
THe point of a fourteen-man jury is not simply justice, it is to share the blame. A judgement arbitrarily enforced by the law ensures that no single man has to be held responsible whan an "act of justice" snowballs into something far more horrific.
I happen to know the man is spending 3 years in prison... mostly likely because of my confrontation. Had I not defended that boy. He may never have gone to prison.
But you couldn't possibly have predicted that. One reluctant witness, and it might have been you trapped in prison, instead of that man. One reluctant witness, and that boy might have been beaten for days, simply for "making him look bad in public."
There is a reason we give our officers and our courts the right to enforce our own laws upon us. It is because they, as a collective, possess leveler heads than someone directly involved in the incident.
Do you plan to beat every abuser this side of the midwest? Your actions saved one boy. One. It did nothing for the others, boys and girls alike.
Small scale change requires nothing but anger and a pointy fencepost with nails on it. Reform requires trust. In our laws, in ourselves, an in our juries.
There is a reason we give our officers and our courts the right to enforce our own laws upon us. It is because they, as a collective, possess leveler heads than someone directly involved in the incident.
Do you plan to beat every abuser this side of the midwest? Your actions saved one boy. One. It did nothing for the others, boys and girls alike.
Small scale change requires nothing but anger and a pointy fencepost with nails on it. Reform requires trust. In our laws, in ourselves, an in our juries.
QUOTE(akalae @ Nov 28 2007, 01:40 PM)
But you couldn't possibly have predicted that. One reluctant witness, and it might have been you trapped in prison, instead of that man. One reluctant witness, and that boy might have been beaten for days, simply for "making him look bad in public."
There is a reason we give our officers and our courts the right to enforce our own laws upon us. It is because they, as a collective, possess leveler heads than someone directly involved in the incident.
Do you plan to beat every abuser this side of the midwest? Your actions saved one boy. One. It did nothing for the others, boys and girls alike.
Small scale change requires nothing but anger and a pointy fencepost with nails on it. Reform requires trust. In our laws, in ourselves, an in our juries.
There is a reason we give our officers and our courts the right to enforce our own laws upon us. It is because they, as a collective, possess leveler heads than someone directly involved in the incident.
Do you plan to beat every abuser this side of the midwest? Your actions saved one boy. One. It did nothing for the others, boys and girls alike.
Small scale change requires nothing but anger and a pointy fencepost with nails on it. Reform requires trust. In our laws, in ourselves, an in our juries.
What if all you like.. My instincts were the correct action at that time and now the man is properly in jail and the boy is much safer because of it.
I am only one man and I do what I can when I can.
I am sure you would much rather put me in jail than the jerk who struck his child.
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