It is a given that Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals, Transgenders and Queers are not fully accepted into our society. Whether or not they should be is a matter of debate, but not in this thread. Whether or not they can be is also a matter of debate. In this thread, I request that you limit debate on that subject to how it relates directly to the topic.

Over in the "Gays in the Military" (GitM) thread, Vermillion spent a fair amount of electrons wrestling with various objections to GitM based on stereotypes. It must be understood that all stereotypes have some basis in the truth. The stereotype may be outmoded (i.e. Japanese people are really short), it may focus only on negatives (i.e. New Yorkers are rude), it may simply be a negative characterization of a neutral trait (i.e. Jews are tightfisted vs. Jews are frugal), or it may be positive (i.e., gays are snappy dressers), and it certainly is wrong in some or many cases. Nonetheless, real people, going through their daily lives, depend on stereotypes constantly in order to function. If I see a man running out of a bank with a gun, I'm going to respond based on the stereotype that he is a bank robber. Many people object to stereotyping (usually when they or their interest group is on the short end of it), but nobody has ever provided a practical way to get away from it. The world is far too complex and rich in people, places, things, and events to sort out and rationally evaluate every person, place, thing or event that we encounter.

With the forgoing in mind, here are the questions for debate:

1) What are the stereotypes obstructing greater acceptance of LGBTQs?

1a) Are these stereotypes generally accurate?

2) What are the stereotypes aiding greater acceptance of LGBTQs?

3) What can the LGBTQ community do to correct erroneous obstructing stereotypes, or if the stereotype is fundamentally accurate, what can they do to change their own behaviour?

4) How can the positive stereotypes be expanded or further leveraged?

1) What are the stereotypes obstructing greater acceptance of LGBTQs?

Let's break this down letter by letter. For the sake of this discussion, I'm going to use the noun "gay" to mean a gay male, although I have never been happy with that use of the word, and I would prefer one parallel to "lesbian" which would never be confusing. But that's neither here nor there.

The negative stereotype of lesbians I most often encounter is that they are "butch." There are all kinds of jokes about lesbians driving big trucks, wearing overalls, having crewcuts, and so on. There also exists the stereotype of the "femme" -- the ultra-feminine lesbian -- but this doesn't get anywhere near as much attention from the non-lesbian community, I think. No doubt some people fit these stereotypes, but they seem to be greatly exaggerated.

The negative stereotype of gay men, at least until recent decades, was that of the "fairy" -- the feminine man who talked with a lisp, had a limp wrist, and so on. There is also the stereotype of the ultra-masculine gay man, with his leather clothes and so on. Again, I'm sure you can find some men who fit these categories, but this is all greatly exaggerated.

Allow me to take a moment here to offer a hypothesis of why a few people fit these categories. It seems to me more likely that such behavior is, consciously or not, adopted by a small number of people, instead of being inherent to them. The gay man may choose to "camp it up" after self-identifying as gay, for a variety of reasons. He may have absorbed his own stereotype into his mind; he may choose this behavior of a way of saying to the world "accept me as I am." (Whether this "in your face" way of asking for acceptance of one's sexual orientation is effective or not is another question.)

Aside from this, the only potentially negative stereotype that I am familiar with about gay men is that they have many sexual partners. (I personally don't think this is inherently a bad thing, although it raises some risks, but many people in the "mainstream" would think it improper.) (Oh, I suppose that there are some stereotypes about gay men that they tend to be pedophiles, or that they try to "recruit" straight men into being gay, but I think we can agree that these myths are not worthy of our attention.)

I don't think there are really any stereotypes about bisexuals worthy of discussion.

I also don't know of too many stereotypes about the transgendered, with the sole exception that some people think that the typical male crossdresser is gay; the "drag queen" image. In fact, the vast majority of male-to-female crossdressers are heterosexual.

I don't like the use of the word "queer" since it has so often been used as an insult. It's also very unclear exactly what it is supposed to mean. All I can say is that people who would call themselves "queer" but who do not otherwise fit into any of the other categories discussed above are quite rare, and therefore do not have any stereotypes associated with them.

1a) Are these stereotypes generally accurate?

For the most part, although you can find individuals who fit any stereotype, no. The only stereotype worth discussing is the one which suggests that gay men have many sexual partners. I have tried to search for hard data on this subject -- something other than anecdotal reports -- and I have failed. The best I can find is one which talks about the difference between the number of sexual partners reported by all people.

Link

In this study, women reported an average of 6 sexual partners (median of 3) and men reported having an average of 20 sexual partners (median of 8.) The first thing to note is how much higher the average is than the median for both sexes. This can be explained by the fact that a small number of people reported having a very large number of sexual partners, which bumped up the average. Therefore it seems logical that gay men will tend to have more sexual partners than gay women. (As far as I know, nobody has the stereotype of lesbians having many sexual partners.) It also seems logical that sexual relationships between two men may tend to be more casual, and more common, than sexual relationships between the sexes. One bit of evidence for this is the fact that a significant number of men who self-identify as heterosexual have had sexual relations with other men.

Link



Let me make it clear here that I am talking about trends here, and that there are certainly many people of all sexual orientations who have had few sexual partners, and have had long-term relationships. I am also not stereotyping men as sex-crazed, since I am sure that the vast majority of men have stable, long-term relationships.

2) What are the stereotypes aiding greater acceptance of LGBTQs?

Well, things like "gay men know how to dress" and the like, which I always thought was silly, and kind of a backwards insult. Any very handsome, very well-dressed man is likely to have people say things like "He must be gay." Even if such stereotypes are "positive," I think they do more harm then good.

3) What can the LGBTQ community do to correct erroneous obstructing stereotypes, or if the stereotype is fundamentally accurate, what can they do to change their own behaviour?

To correct the incorrect stereotypes, the LGBTQ community must be visible. This doesn't mean acting campy, or dressing up in outrageous costumes. It means just being like the straight community in everyday life. If Bob says "This is my wife, Mary" then Fred ought to be able to say "This is my husband, Bill."

It also means that we should all just be ourselves. By this I mean that we should examine our behavior and see if we are acting in the way we really want to act, or just acting the way we think we should act. If the very "butch" lesbian genuinely likes to dress and act that way, fine; if she acts and dresses that way because she thinks that she should -- if she has internalized the stereotype of the lesbian -- than she should reconsider.

This only leaves the question of multiple sexual partners in gay men. As I said, I have no problem with someone freely choosing to have multiple sexual partners, as long as all person involved are genuinely consenting, and as long as the proper precautions are taken that should be taken with all sexual activities. Yes, a larger number of partners increases the health risks, and everyone should be aware of this, just as everyone should be aware of the health risks of smoking, lack of exercise, improper dietary choices, and so on.

For the majority of gay men, who do not have a very large number of sexual partners, they should simply live their lives openly, and let it be seen that they are not so very different from anyone else. They should continue to work for legal recognition of long-term same-sex relationships; marriage.

4) How can the positive stereotypes be expanded or further leveraged?

Since I don't think that these "positive" stereotypes are either true or helpful, no effort is needed.

What are the stereotypes obstructing greater acceptance of LGBTQs?

When it comes to most groups, I'd argue that every stereotype is an obstruction to some member of that group. Pity the Asian who sucks at math.

Are these stereotypes generally accurate?

Not particularly, no. It might be nice to imagine that all gay men have good taste and dance well and tend to be natty dressers and never spit - but, as is the case with most stereotypes, they simply don't hold up under any sort of scrutiny. Indeed, I would argue that the "positive" stereotypes of gay men have been about as unconstructive as the "negative" ones. The majority of gay men that I have known have been solidly working class. And I've known numerous gays that are graceless, ill-mannered slobs - fitting right in with straight stereotypes. Indeed, my partner and I have been accused of "living like frat brothers" (and it must be admitted that housekeeping is not high on our list of priorities). Yet there's all this pressure to be tidy - and witty - and to be able to accessorize and know the lyrics to Cole Porter songs and provide decorating tips - it's too much! And this is not just anecdotal. Gay men and lesbians represent as broad a cross-section of classes and types as redheads or the left-handed - and very few of them can do a convincing Ethel Merman impersonation. Assuming that gay men or lesbians gravitate more toward certain personality types is ridiculous and has little basis in reality. Drag queens and leathermen are rare exceptions in the gay community - and there are no doubt far more straight men with a penchant for women's clothing or S&M gear.

It has been argued that gays, being predominantly single or in dual income relationships, are naturally better off financially than their straight counterparts (and, therefore, have more leisure time and, therefore, are either more decadent or more refined). This is supposed to be a "positive" stereotype. But this doesn't hold water either. Many gays are married - and have kids (or have been married - and have alimony and child support payments). Many gays are also unemployed, impoverished, homeless, terminally ill. But the affluence stereotype is just another way of resenting (and marginalizing) gays. No one uses the "up-scale" stereotype to imply that gays are more productive or more philanthropic or that they contribute proportionately more taxes than straights.

Vicki is quite right that most of the role-playing stereotypes are based on adopted behavior. However, most femme or butch behavior emerged as a means of identification, of recognizing each other - a waning leftover from more closeted times that I pray will eventually disappear altogether. The only stereotype that is not really part of adopted behavior is the whole promiscuity thing - and that is more a matter of gender behavior than gay or straight behavior. As has been mentioned above, the male of our species tends to be more promiscuous than the female - and there seems to be fairly sound evidence of this (and it makes biological sense should one accept natural selection - the more partners one has, the better the chance of passing on one's genetic material). Naturally, then, males seeking male partners are going to have more opportunity than males seeking the less promiscuous gender. In short, being a gay male ups the odds that you'll have a date on Saturday night - and get lucky. Were women as sexually available as men, straight men would be every bit as promiscuous as gay men (and perhaps the honest ones already are).

What are the stereotypes aiding greater acceptance of LGBTQs?

There are none. The fact that many gay men and lesbians make great teachers and soldiers and religious leaders (three occupations that benefit from not having traditional family ties) or, on the other hand, that many of them make terrific parents is not widely enough known to even begin to be a stereotype. If, as Bikerdad argues, we do all traffic in stereotypes, then we need new stereotypes - ones which, hopefully, would be somewhat more accurate. My hope, though, would be to see stereotypes vanish altogether. (And, Bikerdad, there a difference between a stereotype and a logical assumption. Your bank robber example has nothing to do with stereotypes.)

What can the LGBTQ community do to correct erroneous obstructing stereotypes, or if the stereotype is fundamentally accurate, what can they do to change their own behavior?

Come out. That's it: simply be open and honest about their lives and relationships - just like straight people. The more straight society sees that the bulk of gay men and lesbians are virtually indistinguishable from the rest of the community, the better for everyone (and the sooner all that ridiculous adopted behavior can go the way of the brontosaurus). I can't tell you how often I've heard "I had no idea you were gay!" To which I usually respond, "Cool. I had no idea you were straight." I look forward to the day when no one makes assumptions about anyone - though I suspect it's still a long way off.

How can the positive stereotypes be expanded or further leveraged?

They can't. No gay man or lesbian needs to prove anything to anyone. Our society either accepts its diversity or it doesn't. No one should feel compelled to modify their behavior to suit anyone else - so long as it isn't antisocial and doesn't infringe on the rights of any other member of society. Were we all able to do the that, "acceptance" would not be an issue.