Full Version: The Afghan Dilemma
Anybody have any suggestions on how to help Uncle Sam out of this dillema? Do we focus on terrorism and defend the drug traffic or shift the balance the other way. Of course the drug trade helps finance the terrorists so we are really in a pickle.
The Afghan Dilemma
With our amazing Afghan success we should be confidently buoyed to invade and occupy Iraq.
The Afghan Dilemma
QUOTE
Thanks to the U.S. intervention, Afghanistan will again supply up to 70 percent of the world's heroin this year, 90 percent of the heroin reaching Europe and even a part of the heroin reaching the United States.
The new Hamid Karzai regime introduced a token ban on production in January. But lacking effective means of enforcing its decrees, the central government has enforced the ban only selectively. It has also been forced to accept the influence of local drug-tainted warlords, such as Hazrat Ali in Nangarhar, and Gul Agha Sherzai, appointed governor of Kandahar province.
The London Observer reported recently that, in order to stave off rebellion against the weak central government, both Hazrat Ali and Gul Agha, along with other warlords, "have been 'bought off' with millions of dollars in deals brokered by U.S. and British intelligence."
U.S. actions probably reflect its complex relations with Pakistan, which regards both Gul Agha and Hazrat Ali as allies. For 20 years, the complex of heroin-terror networks in Central Asia has been fostered by Pakistan's intelligence service, the ISI.
Since backing drug-trafficking mujahideen against the Soviet Union, the ISI has had a vision of using the drug traffic to project its influence beyond Afghanistan into Central Asia. Afghan opium and heroin from the mujahideen during the 1980s corrupted not just the ISI itself, but the whole of Pakistani society. Pakistan's opium-heroin economy reached at least half the size of its official one, and in terms of exports may have surpassed it.
the revival of the Afghan opium economy is good news for the Islamist terrorists from Kosovo to Kashmir, who have depended on it since the connection was established with ISI encouragement in the 1980s.
The new Hamid Karzai regime introduced a token ban on production in January. But lacking effective means of enforcing its decrees, the central government has enforced the ban only selectively. It has also been forced to accept the influence of local drug-tainted warlords, such as Hazrat Ali in Nangarhar, and Gul Agha Sherzai, appointed governor of Kandahar province.
The London Observer reported recently that, in order to stave off rebellion against the weak central government, both Hazrat Ali and Gul Agha, along with other warlords, "have been 'bought off' with millions of dollars in deals brokered by U.S. and British intelligence."
U.S. actions probably reflect its complex relations with Pakistan, which regards both Gul Agha and Hazrat Ali as allies. For 20 years, the complex of heroin-terror networks in Central Asia has been fostered by Pakistan's intelligence service, the ISI.
Since backing drug-trafficking mujahideen against the Soviet Union, the ISI has had a vision of using the drug traffic to project its influence beyond Afghanistan into Central Asia. Afghan opium and heroin from the mujahideen during the 1980s corrupted not just the ISI itself, but the whole of Pakistani society. Pakistan's opium-heroin economy reached at least half the size of its official one, and in terms of exports may have surpassed it.
the revival of the Afghan opium economy is good news for the Islamist terrorists from Kosovo to Kashmir, who have depended on it since the connection was established with ISI encouragement in the 1980s.
With our amazing Afghan success we should be confidently buoyed to invade and occupy Iraq.
QUOTE(Dingo @ Mar 2 2003, 05:17 PM)
With our amazing Afghan success we should be confidently buoyed to invade and occupy Iraq.
Interesting, are you actually trying to make the jump from... "Afghanistan produces heroine" to, "Aghanistan's reconstruction is a failure"? It is also important to remember Iraq has a vastly better situation than Afghanistan did pre-war. The economic recovery would be much faster.
QUOTE(turnea @ Mar 2 2003, 06:32 PM)
QUOTE(Dingo @ Mar 2 2003, 05:17 PM)
With our amazing Afghan success we should be confidently buoyed to invade and occupy Iraq.
Interesting, are you actually trying to make the jump from... "Afghanistan produces heroine" to, "Aghanistan's reconstruction is a failure"? It is also important to remember Iraq has a vastly better situation than Afghanistan did pre-war. The economic recovery would be much faster.
I'm not sure I follow you. We're doing good in Afghanistan and we'll do even better in Iraq; is that you're point? I know with lots of foreign troops we've secured Kabul and women can go to school there and some other places. I imagine if we put enough money and troops in just about anywhere we can achieve that sort of success. Nice that there will be enough drug money mixed with American taxes to help pay the teacher's salaries.
Glad your confident about our invasion of Iraq. I guess I don't have your information to boost my confidence. Perhaps it's the same information that makes the worldly wise BA so gung ho.
Back to the original question. Any idea how to break out of the terrorism drug seesaw?
Money, of course, make it worth the farmer's while to plow under poppy fields and plant something useful (like food). Welcome to capitalism...
Oh and Dingo, the point was that you seemed to be implying reconstruction in Afghanistan has not gone well, judging it's effects a single year after the decades of war and drought. Pre-mature, maybe?
Oh and Dingo, the point was that you seemed to be implying reconstruction in Afghanistan has not gone well, judging it's effects a single year after the decades of war and drought. Pre-mature, maybe?
If we destroy the Poppy Fields in Afghanistan, Afghanistan will be losing a major economic source of income & WE would lose the love & respect that we have from the locals.
A few Daisycutters can tear those fields to shreds but i think we should hold off on destroying the fields until there is another way to have the Afghanis economically support themselves without the fields
As for the Re-building of the Country in general, Mr. Karazi was happy to report that Kabul experienced traffic jams. Now, that may seem strange but it is good because people are getting out more than they used to. Also, more is growing in Afghanistan, which is explained here:
Booming Biz in Afghanistan
A few Daisycutters can tear those fields to shreds but i think we should hold off on destroying the fields until there is another way to have the Afghanis economically support themselves without the fields
As for the Re-building of the Country in general, Mr. Karazi was happy to report that Kabul experienced traffic jams. Now, that may seem strange but it is good because people are getting out more than they used to. Also, more is growing in Afghanistan, which is explained here:
Booming Biz in Afghanistan
Ahhh...such a glowing picture of success. Shouldn't food and shelter be the most important, primary and basic aid? I'm sure with all the support we had world wide for that particular war we could have saved the babies that died of exposure when winter began there last year. The ones still living in refugee camps in tents on the borders...I'll have to hunt up the story on that.
For now I'll just leave you with this little factoid...NY Times
For now I'll just leave you with this little factoid...NY Times
QUOTE(Danya @ Mar 2 2003, 09:33 PM)
Ahhh...such a glowing picture of success. Shouldn't food and shelter be the most important, primary and basic aid? I'm sure with all the support we had world wide for that particular war we could have saved the babies that died of exposure when winter began there last year. The ones still living in refugee camps in tents on the borders
Speaking of world support, some of the countries have become deadbeat in paying for aid
And as for the food, if they will come back to the cities, then maybe they would get some food.
QUOTE(goamerica @ Mar 2 2003, 06:48 PM)
Speaking of world support, some of the countries have become deadbeat in paying for aid
Not that we can talk...Bush didn't plan any money for them in his 2003 budget. OOPS.
But please be specific as to which countries aren't pulling their weight and provide sources on how other countries have screwed up as well. I'm interested in hearing about it.
Karzai appeals to Bush for more aid...
QUOTE
White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said discussions between Karzai and Bush at the White House focused on reconstruction efforts already under way, and Bush did not respond directly to Karzai's appeal for additional aid.
"The United States is providing assistance to Afghanistan. We will continue to do so. Private-sector assistance can grow, and there are other forms of assistance from nongovernmental organizations that are available too," Fleischer said.
But he added, "There was no specific discussion of any one area of increase."
link
"The United States is providing assistance to Afghanistan. We will continue to do so. Private-sector assistance can grow, and there are other forms of assistance from nongovernmental organizations that are available too," Fleischer said.
But he added, "There was no specific discussion of any one area of increase."
link
HEY! Maybe he could give them the money Turkey turned down.
The United States should use our relief money as leverage to make sure that the Opium crop is kept a small as possible in Afghanistan. Illicit money can be used to fund terrorism. We should not support a government that doesn't get serious about turning those opium fields into something with more honest profit and nutritious calories. They way capitalism works here is that if the risk in being punished is high, many farmers will choose to go to the legal crop that generates the highest revenues.
I'm shocked I tell ya....just shocked.
I happen to agree with our actions in Afghanistan because the source to a substantiated clear and present danger was being harbored there.
But I'm just totally shocked beyond belief that all the good people in Afghanistan have been liberated and don't seem to have to have that new democratic society we seem to be pushing on the world.
Of course, I think democracy is the best game in town. But I'm speaking culturally as a white, middle aged, middle-class, married heterosexual with 1.5 kids.
I don't have the sources to back this up, but aren't Muslim nations somewhere around 0 fer 8000 years in establishing democracies?
Could it be possible that culturally, Muslims reject democracy? It's just possible that treating their women like crap and having really bad human rights records is right in their comfort zone?
Their rule is appalling to me. But maybe our system and values seem the same to them.
I simply have a hard time understanding how we use liberating all those good Muslims in Iraq and creating a democracy as an excuse to invade an occupy another country that, for all intents and purposes, is already defeated.
Afghanistan exemplifies the model of that thinking. And it proves it still doesn't work.
I happen to agree with our actions in Afghanistan because the source to a substantiated clear and present danger was being harbored there.
But I'm just totally shocked beyond belief that all the good people in Afghanistan have been liberated and don't seem to have to have that new democratic society we seem to be pushing on the world.
Of course, I think democracy is the best game in town. But I'm speaking culturally as a white, middle aged, middle-class, married heterosexual with 1.5 kids.
I don't have the sources to back this up, but aren't Muslim nations somewhere around 0 fer 8000 years in establishing democracies?
Could it be possible that culturally, Muslims reject democracy? It's just possible that treating their women like crap and having really bad human rights records is right in their comfort zone?
Their rule is appalling to me. But maybe our system and values seem the same to them.
I simply have a hard time understanding how we use liberating all those good Muslims in Iraq and creating a democracy as an excuse to invade an occupy another country that, for all intents and purposes, is already defeated.
Afghanistan exemplifies the model of that thinking. And it proves it still doesn't work.
Islam was established ca. 600 AD and Christianity took longer than 1400 to produce its first effective democracy.
DR you forget that Turkey is a Muslim nation that has been exercising democracy consistently. In fact their representatives just exercised the vote that blocked access to their country for a northern front in the Iraq war.
DR you forget that Turkey is a Muslim nation that has been exercising democracy consistently. In fact their representatives just exercised the vote that blocked access to their country for a northern front in the Iraq war.
QUOTE(turnea @ Mar 2 2003, 07:11 PM)
Money, of course, make it worth the farmer's while to plow under poppy fields and plant something useful (like food). Welcome to capitalism...
Oh and Dingo, the point was that you seemed to be implying reconstruction in Afghanistan has not gone well, judging it's effects a single year after the decades of war and drought. Pre-mature, maybe?
Oh and Dingo, the point was that you seemed to be implying reconstruction in Afghanistan has not gone well, judging it's effects a single year after the decades of war and drought. Pre-mature, maybe?
turnea, I think we're having a bit of a failure to communicate - again. My question had to do with breaking out of the terrorism/opium dilemma. I am not clear about our great progress in the reconstruction sense. That internet cafe sounds hopeful. I just think we are now in principally the hope stage and haven't established enough success there to go running off to another multibillion dollar invasion which will then put us in double hope mode at perhaps 5 times the cost and no realistic vision of the future or exit strategy in either case. What's the projected deficit now? - 300 billion and rising I believe.
And paying them a dollar per carrot to make the transition from opium growing worthwhile is hardly my definition of capitalism. Well now let me amend that. Oil at the pump is hugely subsidized. Maybe capitalism has achieved enough definitional drift to encompass just about anything we want to call it. In our new Orwellian world perhaps government subsidized and directed capitalism/freedom is just the ticket.
Turnea:
Of course, growing opium poppies is very much capitalistic. Great profit margin, eh?
One part of solving the problem is ending the war on drugs, of course. The other angle to pursue is to practice benevolent foreign policy that concentrates on rights, freedom, and the rule of law (as opposed to the war machine), instead of coercion, impoverishment, and inequity...
QUOTE
Money, of course, make it worth the farmer's while to plow under poppy fields and plant something useful (like food). Welcome to capitalism...
Of course, growing opium poppies is very much capitalistic. Great profit margin, eh?
One part of solving the problem is ending the war on drugs, of course. The other angle to pursue is to practice benevolent foreign policy that concentrates on rights, freedom, and the rule of law (as opposed to the war machine), instead of coercion, impoverishment, and inequity...
QUOTE
Danya - HEY! Maybe he could give them the money Turkey turned down.
Now that's an interesting thought. Maybe it could be invested in a chain of fast food franchises. They'll be running out of their caves and hideouts to bite into those big macs and whoppers. Osama will never know what hit him. He'd probably retaliate with a chain of superspicy jihadburgers. I understand he was quite the capitalist at one time.
QUOTE(Dingo @ Mar 3 2003, 07:04 AM)
Osama will never know what hit him. He'd probably retaliate with a chain of superspicy jihadburgers. I understand he was quite the capitalist at one time.
HA HA, super-spicy Jihad Burgers, I like that. I'm surprised that isn't on the menu at Mc'y Ds. It would seem appropriate for many fast food chains, I can't stand fast food, tastes like terrorism to me. But yeah, the Bin Laden family is very capitalistic, almost like Plunkit. I like how his father made Mecca look like a Dallas football stadium. But OBL is the black sheep of the family. Before the Taliban was smashed we figured that OBL had about 30 million dollars in assets. Imagine what the family is worth. Kudos to Bush dropping 30 million dollars worth of food through out Afghanistan before we blew the crap out of them. I guess that makes us look slightly more civilized than the Soviet Union.
I have been doing a little research on the current World Bank initiatives for Afganistan. I can't find an exact list of countries that are delinquent in providing the amount of money they pledged but money is still flowing in and projects are being budgeted out. I figure it is going to take at least 3 to 5 years before we see any positive change and stability come out of that country. But the whole world is watching them because they don't want to see such an investment blow up.
The Opium fields, I'm sorry, but they have to go, unless if Afghanistan wants to be known for poppy seed muffins. Afghanistan is about the same climate as India, I'm sure they could have an excellent spice trade. Either way, they need to get an economy going so that they can start paying back loans. If there are any economic strategists out there, Afghanistan is definitely a pot to be filled.
Well, I suppose we could do a war on drugs.
Or just say "no" to drugs.
Run some commercials linking drug use to terrorism.
Or something we have not tried yet: Take the profit out of drugs. Legalize.
Yes. Exercise capitalistic principles. Increase supply, lower prices, lower profits.
But we won't do that. It's not the moral thing to do. Or something like that.
Or just say "no" to drugs.
Run some commercials linking drug use to terrorism.
Or something we have not tried yet: Take the profit out of drugs. Legalize.
Yes. Exercise capitalistic principles. Increase supply, lower prices, lower profits.
But we won't do that. It's not the moral thing to do. Or something like that.
QUOTE
DR you forget that Turkey is a Muslim nation that has been exercising democracy consistently
You are right. I stand corrected.
I'd have to concede with this, that establishing democracies in Muslim nations is indeed possible.
QUOTE(DaytonRocker @ Mar 3 2003, 07:37 AM)
QUOTE
DR you forget that Turkey is a Muslim nation that has been exercising democracy consistently
You are right. I stand corrected.
I'd have to concede with this, that establishing democracies in Muslim nations is indeed possible.
I agree it's possible...but I don't agree it should be forced on them without considering they're circumstance. Maybe a one size fit's all democracy won't work everywhere.
I think the problem with the U.S. forcing democracy is that many times we are not sensitive to the culture or even respectful of any others way of life. We tend to want to make everyone like us and not understand that this is not always what they see as an improvement to their own society.
QUOTE(DaytonRocker @ Mar 2 2003, 11:53 PM)
I'm just totally shocked beyond belief that all the good people in Afghanistan have been liberated and don't seem to have to have that new democratic society we seem to be pushing on the world.
Afghanistan is working at getting towards a Democracy or something similar but it will take TIME! They first need to re-build their society to where stability will reign & nothing will cause it to collapse. You have to remember, the country has been ravaged by war for 20 years. It has a lot of re-building to do
QUOTE(goamerica @ Mar 3 2003, 10:33 AM)
Afghanistan is working at getting towards a Democracy or something similar but it will take TIME! They first need to re-build their society to where stability will reign & nothing will cause it to collapse. You have to remember, the country has been ravaged by war for 20 years. It has a lot of re-building to do
Exactly, those who call reconstruction a faliure one year after it has begun are being extremely hasty in judgement. And ignoring the fact that the situation in Afghanistan is better, by nearly all estimates.
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