Full Version: NOT another Hypocrisy thread.
With all the wonderous threads about hypocrisy and political correctness (or the lack thereof), I thought it was high time to start a thread about a man living out his convictions. 
ABC News - Former ACLU Chapter President Arrested for Child Pornography
Feb. 23, 2007— Federal agents arrested Charles Rust-Tierney, the former president of the Virginia chapter of the ACLU, Friday in Arlington for allegedly possessing child pornography.
...
In the past, Rust-Tierney had argued against restricting Internet access in public libraries in Virginia, writing, "Recognizing that individuals will continue to behave responsibly and appropriately while in the library, the default should be maximum, unrestricted access to the valuable resources of the Internet."
World Net Daily
Donna Rice Hughes, president of Enough is Enough, a website dedicated to protecting children from the dangers on the Internet, had worked on CIPA, and then served as an expert witness for the defendant when Tierney and the ACLU sued over the filters.
"That Mr. Rust-Tierney, a leading proponent of unrestricted access to the Internet, has now been arrested for receiving and possessing graphic child pornography should serve as testimony to the injudicious and baleful outgrowth of the legal challenges launched by the ACLU questioning the constitutionality of important legislation that protects children from Internet exploitation and content harmful to minors," the organization said in a statement released by Enough is Enough spokeswoman Cris Clapp.
"When Mr. Rust-Tierney argued before the Loudoun County Library Board that unrestricted access to the resources of the Internet was essential for our children's ability to learn and communicate, and when groups like the ACLU contend that acceptable use policies alone are capable of protecting children online, they fail to acknowledge the tragic and devastating effects to children and families of both intentional and unintentional access to online pornography," the statement said.
What does the ACLU have to say about child pornography? They're okay with "virtual" child porn (i.e., if no real children were involved in making it, they're cool with it). They're also okay with exposing children to pornography on the taxpayers' dime. Now we know why Rust-Tierney made the arguments he did, he was just speaking out of his own convictions.
Questions for debate:
1} Which is more troubling, hypocrisy when a public figure falls short of the standards he espouses, or the manifestation of the dark side of the standards?
2} Insinuations that opponents of the "Gay Agenda" are suppressed/closeted homosexuals are common on the Left, is it time to start insinuating that all opponents of efforts to protect children from pornography are actually child porn afficianados?
3} Rust-Tierney's wife was formerly the Director of the ACLU's Capital Punishment Project, and now heads another anti-death penalty group. Should the Virginia state police start digging for bodies in her backyard?
4} Do you think that a significant number of ACLU supporters are going to look at this and go, "
, maybe those folks bashing the ACLU might actually be onto something..."
5} Should a concerted effort be made to discover if Rust-Tierney ever accessed child porn from his ACLU offices or on ACLU supplied equipment?
6} If such access is discovered, should the ACLU be sued as complicit in child pornography?
7} As of this writing, neither the ACLU nor the Virginia ACLU has issued any statement on the tribulations of the former Presidente. Should they?
ABC News - Former ACLU Chapter President Arrested for Child Pornography
Feb. 23, 2007— Federal agents arrested Charles Rust-Tierney, the former president of the Virginia chapter of the ACLU, Friday in Arlington for allegedly possessing child pornography.
...
In the past, Rust-Tierney had argued against restricting Internet access in public libraries in Virginia, writing, "Recognizing that individuals will continue to behave responsibly and appropriately while in the library, the default should be maximum, unrestricted access to the valuable resources of the Internet."
World Net Daily
Donna Rice Hughes, president of Enough is Enough, a website dedicated to protecting children from the dangers on the Internet, had worked on CIPA, and then served as an expert witness for the defendant when Tierney and the ACLU sued over the filters.
"That Mr. Rust-Tierney, a leading proponent of unrestricted access to the Internet, has now been arrested for receiving and possessing graphic child pornography should serve as testimony to the injudicious and baleful outgrowth of the legal challenges launched by the ACLU questioning the constitutionality of important legislation that protects children from Internet exploitation and content harmful to minors," the organization said in a statement released by Enough is Enough spokeswoman Cris Clapp.
"When Mr. Rust-Tierney argued before the Loudoun County Library Board that unrestricted access to the resources of the Internet was essential for our children's ability to learn and communicate, and when groups like the ACLU contend that acceptable use policies alone are capable of protecting children online, they fail to acknowledge the tragic and devastating effects to children and families of both intentional and unintentional access to online pornography," the statement said.
What does the ACLU have to say about child pornography? They're okay with "virtual" child porn (i.e., if no real children were involved in making it, they're cool with it). They're also okay with exposing children to pornography on the taxpayers' dime. Now we know why Rust-Tierney made the arguments he did, he was just speaking out of his own convictions.
Questions for debate:
1} Which is more troubling, hypocrisy when a public figure falls short of the standards he espouses, or the manifestation of the dark side of the standards?
2} Insinuations that opponents of the "Gay Agenda" are suppressed/closeted homosexuals are common on the Left, is it time to start insinuating that all opponents of efforts to protect children from pornography are actually child porn afficianados?
3} Rust-Tierney's wife was formerly the Director of the ACLU's Capital Punishment Project, and now heads another anti-death penalty group. Should the Virginia state police start digging for bodies in her backyard?
4} Do you think that a significant number of ACLU supporters are going to look at this and go, "
, maybe those folks bashing the ACLU might actually be onto something..."5} Should a concerted effort be made to discover if Rust-Tierney ever accessed child porn from his ACLU offices or on ACLU supplied equipment?
6} If such access is discovered, should the ACLU be sued as complicit in child pornography?
7} As of this writing, neither the ACLU nor the Virginia ACLU has issued any statement on the tribulations of the former Presidente. Should they?
1} Which is more troubling, hypocrisy when a public figure falls short of the standards he espouses, or the manifestation of the dark side of the standards?
Hypocrisy.
2} Insinuations that opponents of the "Gay Agenda" are suppressed/closeted homosexuals are common on the Left, is it time to start insinuating that all opponents of efforts to protect children from pornography are actually child porn afficianados?
Subtracting the left comment, people that claim to protect children from child porn happen to exist all around the board politically, and I would have to say I don’t know.
3} Rust-Tierney's wife was formerly the Director of the ACLU's Capital Punishment Project, and now heads another anti-death penalty group. Should the Virginia state police start digging for bodies in her backyard?
Sure, on taxpayer money.
4} Do you think that a significant number of ACLU supporters are going to look at this and go, " , maybe those folks bashing the ACLU might actually be onto something..."
Not really.
5} Should a concerted effort be made to discover if Rust-Tierney ever accessed child porn from his ACLU offices or on ACLU supplied equipment?
Why, should the military do the same when it catches some person in the ranks looking at such stuff? What about priests that rape children, or look at such stuff, or how about when someone on the right does it? Careful its getting close to political hypocrisy again.
6} If such access is discovered, should the ACLU be sued as complicit in child pornography?
I am sure some enemy of the ACLU would like to, then again we don’t chare handgun producers with 8,000+ counts of homicide that occur yearly from such products.
7} As of this writing, neither the ACLU nor the Virginia ACLU has issued any statement on the tribulations of the former Presidente. Should they?
Its probably in the works.
Hypocrisy.
2} Insinuations that opponents of the "Gay Agenda" are suppressed/closeted homosexuals are common on the Left, is it time to start insinuating that all opponents of efforts to protect children from pornography are actually child porn afficianados?
Subtracting the left comment, people that claim to protect children from child porn happen to exist all around the board politically, and I would have to say I don’t know.
3} Rust-Tierney's wife was formerly the Director of the ACLU's Capital Punishment Project, and now heads another anti-death penalty group. Should the Virginia state police start digging for bodies in her backyard?
Sure, on taxpayer money.
4} Do you think that a significant number of ACLU supporters are going to look at this and go, " , maybe those folks bashing the ACLU might actually be onto something..."
Not really.
5} Should a concerted effort be made to discover if Rust-Tierney ever accessed child porn from his ACLU offices or on ACLU supplied equipment?
Why, should the military do the same when it catches some person in the ranks looking at such stuff? What about priests that rape children, or look at such stuff, or how about when someone on the right does it? Careful its getting close to political hypocrisy again.
6} If such access is discovered, should the ACLU be sued as complicit in child pornography?
I am sure some enemy of the ACLU would like to, then again we don’t chare handgun producers with 8,000+ counts of homicide that occur yearly from such products.
7} As of this writing, neither the ACLU nor the Virginia ACLU has issued any statement on the tribulations of the former Presidente. Should they?
Its probably in the works.
1} Which is more troubling, hypocrisy when a public figure falls short of the standards he espouses, or the manifestation of the dark side of the standards?
Since the standards of the ACLU, no matter how much one may disagree with them, have nothing to do with the very serious crime of which Rust-Tierney is accused, this question is impossible to answer. Let's suggest a "conservative" analogy to see what I mean. If a member of the National Rifle Association goes berzerk and kills someone with a firearm, does this somehow show the "dark side" of the right to bear arms? I would say not.
2} Insinuations that opponents of the "Gay Agenda" are suppressed/closeted homosexuals are common on the Left, is it time to start insinuating that all opponents of efforts to protect children from pornography are actually child porn afficianados?
As one who fully supports the "gay agenda," I have never thought that those who disagree with me were hiding anything. I always accepted the fact that they had a sincere opinion, no matter how strongly I might oppose it. There is nothing to be gained by attacking persons instead of ideas.
3} Rust-Tierney's wife was formerly the Director of the ACLU's Capital Punishment Project, and now heads another anti-death penalty group. Should the Virginia state police start digging for bodies in her backyard?
I'm not sure if this question requires a response, since it is clearly intended as satire. The point seems to be that one should not assume that the people with whom one disagrees are hypocrites. I totally agree. Recently someone who shall remain nameless offered an opinion in another thread which quite simply shocked me; I was powerless to respond. (In any case, it was mentioned in passing and had nothing to do with the rest of the thread.) I accept the fact that this person holds this astonishing opinion sincerely.
4} Do you think that a significant number of ACLU supporters are going to look at this and go, " , maybe those folks bashing the ACLU might actually be onto something..."
I doubt it, since the evils that people do should not reflect on the organizations to which they belong. One should judge the ACLU on whether or not one agrees with their positions. I certainly do not agree with every single opinion expressed by the ACLU, but I agree with them the majority of the time.
5} Should a concerted effort be made to discover if Rust-Tierney ever accessed child porn from his ACLU offices or on ACLU supplied equipment?
I'm not sure what you mean by "concerted," but an investigation within the normal legal guidelines would be in order. (In other words, no, the cops can't smash down the doors of the office in riot gear. If they obtain a warrant to search the computers in the correct way, fine. This would, of course, be an investigation of Rust-Tierney and not the ACLU itself.)
6} If such access is discovered, should the ACLU be sued as complicit in child pornography?
Of course not, just as our hypothetical killer's crimes do not reflect, in any way, on the National Rifle Association.
7} As of this writing, neither the ACLU nor the Virginia ACLU has issued any statement on the tribulations of the former Presidente. Should they?
Yes, once there has been time to judge the situation. (Let's keep in mind the principle of "innocent until proven guilty," one of the good ideas which has been so well defended by the ACLU.)
Since the standards of the ACLU, no matter how much one may disagree with them, have nothing to do with the very serious crime of which Rust-Tierney is accused, this question is impossible to answer. Let's suggest a "conservative" analogy to see what I mean. If a member of the National Rifle Association goes berzerk and kills someone with a firearm, does this somehow show the "dark side" of the right to bear arms? I would say not.
2} Insinuations that opponents of the "Gay Agenda" are suppressed/closeted homosexuals are common on the Left, is it time to start insinuating that all opponents of efforts to protect children from pornography are actually child porn afficianados?
As one who fully supports the "gay agenda," I have never thought that those who disagree with me were hiding anything. I always accepted the fact that they had a sincere opinion, no matter how strongly I might oppose it. There is nothing to be gained by attacking persons instead of ideas.
3} Rust-Tierney's wife was formerly the Director of the ACLU's Capital Punishment Project, and now heads another anti-death penalty group. Should the Virginia state police start digging for bodies in her backyard?
I'm not sure if this question requires a response, since it is clearly intended as satire. The point seems to be that one should not assume that the people with whom one disagrees are hypocrites. I totally agree. Recently someone who shall remain nameless offered an opinion in another thread which quite simply shocked me; I was powerless to respond. (In any case, it was mentioned in passing and had nothing to do with the rest of the thread.) I accept the fact that this person holds this astonishing opinion sincerely.
4} Do you think that a significant number of ACLU supporters are going to look at this and go, " , maybe those folks bashing the ACLU might actually be onto something..."
I doubt it, since the evils that people do should not reflect on the organizations to which they belong. One should judge the ACLU on whether or not one agrees with their positions. I certainly do not agree with every single opinion expressed by the ACLU, but I agree with them the majority of the time.
5} Should a concerted effort be made to discover if Rust-Tierney ever accessed child porn from his ACLU offices or on ACLU supplied equipment?
I'm not sure what you mean by "concerted," but an investigation within the normal legal guidelines would be in order. (In other words, no, the cops can't smash down the doors of the office in riot gear. If they obtain a warrant to search the computers in the correct way, fine. This would, of course, be an investigation of Rust-Tierney and not the ACLU itself.)
6} If such access is discovered, should the ACLU be sued as complicit in child pornography?
Of course not, just as our hypothetical killer's crimes do not reflect, in any way, on the National Rifle Association.
7} As of this writing, neither the ACLU nor the Virginia ACLU has issued any statement on the tribulations of the former Presidente. Should they?
Yes, once there has been time to judge the situation. (Let's keep in mind the principle of "innocent until proven guilty," one of the good ideas which has been so well defended by the ACLU.)
I'm astonished this thread, loaded and biased and posing almost entirely rhetorical questions, is still open. As far as I can tell, this is you taking the abominable actions of one man and trying to turn that into an argument:
-Against the entire ACLU,
-Against gay marriage
-For the death penalty.
The only questions you posed which were actual questions begging response (and not rhetorical questions just trying to make some point) were:
1} Which is more troubling, hypocrisy when a public figure falls short of the standards he espouses, or the manifestation of the dark side of the standards?
Obviously both are troubling, the worse the action we are talking about, the more troubling. Anyone whose hypocricy extends so far as to have them be actually guilty of a crime, then thats obviously pretty bad. Whats your point?
Of course. Whats your point?
Of course not, what a silly comment. Why not sue IBM, if it was being looked for on an IBM computer, or Netscape if that is the browser that was used, or Toyota, if thats how this person carried the child port to and from his work computer?
Given that most other industries/ associations in this same situation, an employee charged of a crime, almost never make public statements regarding it, I would say no, why should the ACLU be any different?
The rest of your questions, well, I think their validity speaks for itself.
2} Insinuations that opponents of the "Gay Agenda" are suppressed/closeted homosexuals are common on the Left, is it time to start insinuating that all opponents of efforts to protect children from pornography are actually child porn afficianados?
'Common on the left'. Complete fiction, making up an argument like that then pinning it on 'the left' as though it were commonplace is absurd, and even if it WAS true it has no bearing on the situation at hand.
Even MORE absurd. Now we are talking about his WIFE, who has been accused of no crime, and trying to equate opposing the death penalty with randomly murdering people?
Honestly? I think most ACLU supporters will look at the stunning logical calesthenics you produced in this post and say: "is this seriously the best that opponents of the AXCLU can come up with?"
-Against the entire ACLU,
-Against gay marriage
-For the death penalty.
The only questions you posed which were actual questions begging response (and not rhetorical questions just trying to make some point) were:
QUOTE(Bikerdad @ Mar 9 2007, 09:33 AM) 
1} Which is more troubling, hypocrisy when a public figure falls short of the standards he espouses, or the manifestation of the dark side of the standards?
Obviously both are troubling, the worse the action we are talking about, the more troubling. Anyone whose hypocricy extends so far as to have them be actually guilty of a crime, then thats obviously pretty bad. Whats your point?
QUOTE
5} Should a concerted effort be made to discover if Rust-Tierney ever accessed child porn from his ACLU offices or on ACLU supplied equipment?
Of course. Whats your point?
QUOTE
6} If such access is discovered, should the ACLU be sued as complicit in child pornography?
Of course not, what a silly comment. Why not sue IBM, if it was being looked for on an IBM computer, or Netscape if that is the browser that was used, or Toyota, if thats how this person carried the child port to and from his work computer?
QUOTE
7} As of this writing, neither the ACLU nor the Virginia ACLU has issued any statement on the tribulations of the former Presidente. Should they?
Given that most other industries/ associations in this same situation, an employee charged of a crime, almost never make public statements regarding it, I would say no, why should the ACLU be any different?
The rest of your questions, well, I think their validity speaks for itself.
2} Insinuations that opponents of the "Gay Agenda" are suppressed/closeted homosexuals are common on the Left, is it time to start insinuating that all opponents of efforts to protect children from pornography are actually child porn afficianados?
'Common on the left'. Complete fiction, making up an argument like that then pinning it on 'the left' as though it were commonplace is absurd, and even if it WAS true it has no bearing on the situation at hand.
QUOTE
3} Rust-Tierney's wife was formerly the Director of the ACLU's Capital Punishment Project, and now heads another anti-death penalty group. Should the Virginia state police start digging for bodies in her backyard?
Even MORE absurd. Now we are talking about his WIFE, who has been accused of no crime, and trying to equate opposing the death penalty with randomly murdering people?
QUOTE
4} Do you think that a significant number of ACLU supporters are going to look at this and go, " , maybe those folks bashing the ACLU might actually be onto something..."
, maybe those folks bashing the ACLU might actually be onto something..."Honestly? I think most ACLU supporters will look at the stunning logical calesthenics you produced in this post and say: "is this seriously the best that opponents of the AXCLU can come up with?"
Topic closed...
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