Full Version: DOJ: FBI Abused USA PATRIOT ACT
This just in from Yahoo!
Okey dokey, here are my questions for debate:
Given the fact that there is now documented [and documented by the GONAZALEZ Justice Dept....not exactly a bastion for liberal or libertarian thinking] abuse by the Federal Government of the USA PATRIOT ACT, do you believe that the act needs to be either reformed [and if so, how] or abolished in its entirety [and if so why and should there be a new version of it enacted in its stead]?
CP
QUOTE
The FBI improperly and, in some cases, illegally used the USA Patriot Act to secretly obtain personal information about people in the United States, a Justice Department audit concluded Friday
QUOTE
And for three years the FBI has underreported to Congress how often it forced businesses to turn over the customer data, the audit found.
FBI agents sometimes demanded the data without proper authorization, according to the 126-page audit by Justice Department Inspector General Glenn A. Fine. At other times, the audit found, the FBI improperly obtained telephone records in non-emergency circumstances.
FBI agents sometimes demanded the data without proper authorization, according to the 126-page audit by Justice Department Inspector General Glenn A. Fine. At other times, the audit found, the FBI improperly obtained telephone records in non-emergency circumstances.
QUOTE
The audit blames agent error and shoddy record-keeping for the bulk of the problems and did not find any indication of criminal misconduct.
Still, "we believe the improper or illegal uses we found involve serious misuses of national security letter authorities," the audit concludes.
At issue are the security letters, a power outlined in the Patriot Act that the Bush administration pushed through Congress after the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks. The letters, or administrative subpoenas, are used in suspected terrorism and espionage cases. They allow the FBI to require telephone companies, Internet service providers, banks, credit bureaus and other businesses to produce highly personal records about their customers or subscribers — without a judge's approval.
Still, "we believe the improper or illegal uses we found involve serious misuses of national security letter authorities," the audit concludes.
At issue are the security letters, a power outlined in the Patriot Act that the Bush administration pushed through Congress after the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks. The letters, or administrative subpoenas, are used in suspected terrorism and espionage cases. They allow the FBI to require telephone companies, Internet service providers, banks, credit bureaus and other businesses to produce highly personal records about their customers or subscribers — without a judge's approval.
Okey dokey, here are my questions for debate:
Given the fact that there is now documented [and documented by the GONAZALEZ Justice Dept....not exactly a bastion for liberal or libertarian thinking] abuse by the Federal Government of the USA PATRIOT ACT, do you believe that the act needs to be either reformed [and if so, how] or abolished in its entirety [and if so why and should there be a new version of it enacted in its stead]?
CP
Given the fact that there is no documented abuse by the Federal Government of the USA PATRIOT ACT, do you believe that the act needs to be either reformed or abolished in its entirety?
What a duh moment. Hopefully this story changes the nature of lawsuits percolating up the judiciary targeting the Patriot Act and appellants are granted standing in the eyes of federal judges. Any preserved documentation of abuse could be uncovered by said lawsuits. Bush is complicit in the abuse and violation of the public’s trust. He admitted as much a year ago.
Impeach Nixon’s scion. Yeah right.
And no, it should not be revised in any shape or form. That and impeachment will do more to discourage future presidents from abusing their office. A bill can’t compensate for incompetent leadership.
What a duh moment. Hopefully this story changes the nature of lawsuits percolating up the judiciary targeting the Patriot Act and appellants are granted standing in the eyes of federal judges. Any preserved documentation of abuse could be uncovered by said lawsuits. Bush is complicit in the abuse and violation of the public’s trust. He admitted as much a year ago.
QUOTE(Boston.com)
When President Bush signed the reauthorization of the USA Patriot Act this month, he included an addendum saying that he did not feel obliged to obey requirements that he inform Congress about how the FBI was using the act's expanded police powers.
In the statement, Bush said that he did not consider himself bound to tell Congress how the Patriot Act powers were being used and that, despite the law's requirements, he could withhold the information if he decided that disclosure would ''impair foreign relations, national security, the deliberative process of the executive, or the performance of the executive's constitutional duties."
In the statement, Bush said that he did not consider himself bound to tell Congress how the Patriot Act powers were being used and that, despite the law's requirements, he could withhold the information if he decided that disclosure would ''impair foreign relations, national security, the deliberative process of the executive, or the performance of the executive's constitutional duties."
Impeach Nixon’s scion. Yeah right.
And no, it should not be revised in any shape or form. That and impeachment will do more to discourage future presidents from abusing their office. A bill can’t compensate for incompetent leadership.
Note: a number of unconstructive one-liners have been removed from this topic. Please stay focused.
TOPIC:
Given the fact that there is now documented abuse by the Federal Government of the USA PATRIOT ACT, do you believe that the act needs to be either reformed? If so, how?
Or abolished in its entirety and if so why and should there be a new version of it enacted in its stead?
TOPIC:
Given the fact that there is now documented abuse by the Federal Government of the USA PATRIOT ACT, do you believe that the act needs to be either reformed? If so, how?
Or abolished in its entirety and if so why and should there be a new version of it enacted in its stead?
That there are documented proofs of Patriot Act abuse does not instantly signal a need for revision of the act or repeal. What it does signal a need for is increased oversight of the FBI and its use of the tools provided by the Patriot Act. It's too early by far to consider the act broken or a natural base for abuse, without study of precisely the causes of the abuses being documented. Are they the result of FBI overzealousness, a broadening of the provisions of the act to cover non terrorist activities, or a misunderstanding by agents in the field as to what precisely is allowable under the Act? Once these questions and more re answered THEN it would be time to take another look at the Act and decide if it's broken, bent, or simply needs clarification.
The good provisions of patriot act DO need to stay- like forcing agencies to share info- that is a very good idea- long time coming- HOWEVER- the rest of the bill needs to be scrapped.
Funny thing though- anti-goverment right wingers have been okay with this law- yet, they don't like the post office or welfare- this has puzzled me greatly- if you think post office is inefficient, and can't be trusted- but have no problem with the FBI gathering up some good blackmail info- J Edger Hoover anyone?
Oh gee, ya, we can trust the goverment with no oversite- it's just a little torture here, a little blackmail there- and a high profile arrest here and there to make sure that the abuses continue.
Funny thing though- anti-goverment right wingers have been okay with this law- yet, they don't like the post office or welfare- this has puzzled me greatly- if you think post office is inefficient, and can't be trusted- but have no problem with the FBI gathering up some good blackmail info- J Edger Hoover anyone?
Oh gee, ya, we can trust the goverment with no oversite- it's just a little torture here, a little blackmail there- and a high profile arrest here and there to make sure that the abuses continue.
I choose abolishment in toto. It's unconstitutional in content, in how it was passed, and how it has been used. There is more than adequate "traditional means" to do the law officer's (I wish we could go back to the older term "peace officer") enforcement job without any of this. And the threat details of "The War on Terrorism", and the Dept. of Homeland Security, are all doing the easy and showy stuff, with lots of hoopla and ignoring the real, and possibly harder threat. Laws and charters such as these always allow this to happen, IMO.
How do I tell the "real threat info" I know, responsibly? Wouldn't most of us AD folks at least like to see such a list and debate and refine it.?
I agree that agency "turfing" such as non-information sharing, fratricide and duplication, to expand on a previous comment, is a big problem. But it's really an Executive Dept. management failure, that no new laws will fix. We just need ececutive performance delivered exelently
Otherwise: "I would expect nothing less than the reported FBI activities and performance. It's an old, old story."
How do I tell the "real threat info" I know, responsibly? Wouldn't most of us AD folks at least like to see such a list and debate and refine it.?
I agree that agency "turfing" such as non-information sharing, fratricide and duplication, to expand on a previous comment, is a big problem. But it's really an Executive Dept. management failure, that no new laws will fix. We just need ececutive performance delivered exelently
Otherwise: "I would expect nothing less than the reported FBI activities and performance. It's an old, old story."
Nothing in the Patriot Act is new to the laws which were currently in place EXCEPT spying on Americans. The Patriot Act SHOULD be abolished in order to allow law enforcement the green light to go after REAL terrorists...
QUOTE(ConservPat @ Mar 9 2007, 12:34 PM) 
Given the fact that there is now documented [and documented by the GONAZALEZ Justice Dept....not exactly a bastion for liberal or libertarian thinking] abuse by the Federal Government of the USA PATRIOT ACT, do you believe that the act needs to be either reformed [and if so, how] or abolished in its entirety [and if so why and should there be a new version of it enacted in its stead]?
Let's make sure we all understand one thing about Grimes.
He hates the PATRIOT Act.
Bu-Chen Co and their Rubber Stamp Congress sold US out when they passed the PATRIOT Act. The PATRIOT Act is NOT a PATRIOT Act. Its a PATRIOT NOT Act. Them (May we curse on AD?) people who pushed that thing through Congress ought to be taken out and shot. All of 'em. Each and every one of 'em. TWICE!
and you DoD/DoJ NSA/FBI Department of Homeland Security Internet Wheenies that are trackin' Grimes on the Internet ought to be taken out and shot three times.
I'm serious ya'll. This ain't right. Them that forced it on US are wrong. They need to be punished hard and made to understand that We the People are NOT gonna put up with their crap.
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Mar 10 2007, 02:48 PM)
The good provisions of patriot act DO need to stay- like forcing agencies to share info- that is a very good idea- long time coming- HOWEVER- the rest of the bill needs to be scrapped.
Funny thing though- anti-goverment right wingers have been okay with this law- yet, they don't like the post office or welfare- this has puzzled me greatly- if you think post office is inefficient, and can't be trusted- but have no problem with the FBI gathering up some good blackmail info- J Edger Hoover anyone?
Oh gee, ya, we can trust the goverment with no oversite- it's just a little torture here, a little blackmail there- and a high profile arrest here and there to make sure that the abuses continue.
Funny thing though- anti-goverment right wingers have been okay with this law- yet, they don't like the post office or welfare- this has puzzled me greatly- if you think post office is inefficient, and can't be trusted- but have no problem with the FBI gathering up some good blackmail info- J Edger Hoover anyone?
Oh gee, ya, we can trust the goverment with no oversite- it's just a little torture here, a little blackmail there- and a high profile arrest here and there to make sure that the abuses continue.
Odd you favor exchange of information but not the gathering of same. Not much to “share” if we just scrap the Act meant to allow for better monitoring of the activities of suspected terrorists.
Obviously we cannot allow abuse of the law. Agencies and individuals who do this should be dealt with severely, but IMO going back to the days prior to the Act we leave too many holes for the bad guys to slip into. We are hearing that numerous terrorists plan to or have already entered the US. We have little chance the Congress will ever secure the southern border.
“Texas Sheriffs Say Terrorists Entering US from Mexico
By Kevin Mooney
CNSNews.com Staff Writer
August 21, 2006
(CNSNews.com) - The chief law enforcement officers of several Texas counties along the southern U.S. border warn that Arabic-speaking individuals are learning Spanish and integrating into Mexican culture before paying smugglers to sneak them into the United States. The Texas Sheriffs' Border Coalition believes those individuals are likely terrorists and that drug cartels and some members of the Mexican military are helping them get across the border.”
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports....E20060821a.html
The Patriot Act helps law enforcement find the terrorists – scrapping it would be a big mistake.
Contingencies for nuclear terrorist attack
Government working up plan to prevent chaos in wake of bombing of major city
James Sterngold, Chronicle Staff Writer
Friday, May 11, 2007
“As concerns grow that terrorists might attack a major American city with a nuclear bomb, a high-level group of government and military officials has been quietly preparing an emergency survival program that would include the building of bomb shelters, steps to prevent panicked evacuations and the possible suspension of some civil liberties.
Many experts say the likelihood of al Qaeda or some other terrorist group producing a working nuclear weapon with illicitly obtained weapons-grade fuel is not large, but such a strike would be far more lethal, frightening and disruptive than the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. Not only could the numbers killed and wounded be far higher, but the explosion could, experts say, ignite widespread fires, shut down most transportation, halt much economic activity and cause a possible disintegration of government order. “
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c...5/11/TERROR.TMP
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