Full Version: The Great Moral Issues of Our Day
I was just reading an editorial that was examining the row between a leader of the Religious Right, Dr. James Dobson of Focus on the Family, and leader of the Religious Left, Jim Wallis of Sojourners. The piece was looking at the difference in what each leader framed as the Great Moral Issues. Without covering what the aformentioned folks said, I'd like to pose the following questions:
1) What would you say are the 3 greatest moral issues of the day?
2) What do you believe is the most effective means of addressing these 3 issues?
1) What would you say are the 3 greatest moral issues of the day?
2) What do you believe is the most effective means of addressing these 3 issues?
QUOTE(Bikerdad @ Mar 20 2007, 01:03 AM) 
I was just reading an editorial that was examining the row between a leader of the Religious Right, Dr. James Dobson of Focus on the Family, and leader of the Religious Left, Jim Wallis of Sojourners. ....
link, please.
Here's an essay by Jim Wallis which deals with this debate.
Link
James Dobson pretty clearly outlines his three great moral issues, from which he believes the debate within evangelical American Christianity about global warming is drawing attention.
Let's be clear what this means. "The sanctity of human life" mostly means abortion, with a little attention drawn to euthanasia. "The integrity of marriage" means same-sex marriage. "Sexual abstinence" is pretty clear, and "morality" here seems to refer entirely to sexuality.
Now these are not trivial issues. I happen to think that James Dobson is completely wrong about all of them, and they are certainly worthy of debate. But the top three?
It's very hard to pick three issues. To do so, I have to be very general. In no particular order:
1. Human-caused violence on a large scale. Terrorism, war, oppressive governments, and so on.
2. Environmental damage on a large scale. Not just our old friend global warming, but such things as deforestation, extinctions, and so on.
3. Human misery which results from poverty. Lack of clean water and sufficient food, basic medical care, and so on.
There is no one most effective way to deal with these problems. They must be dealt with by organizations, public and private, as well as individuals. All of them are helped, to some extent, by liberal, representative, secular governments. All of them are helped, to some extent, by scientific research and technological progress. All of them are helped, to some extent, by the communication of accurate information.
Link
James Dobson pretty clearly outlines his three great moral issues, from which he believes the debate within evangelical American Christianity about global warming is drawing attention.
QUOTE
. . . the great moral issues of our time, notably the sanctity of human life, the integrity of marriage and the teaching of sexual abstinence and morality to our children.
Let's be clear what this means. "The sanctity of human life" mostly means abortion, with a little attention drawn to euthanasia. "The integrity of marriage" means same-sex marriage. "Sexual abstinence" is pretty clear, and "morality" here seems to refer entirely to sexuality.
Now these are not trivial issues. I happen to think that James Dobson is completely wrong about all of them, and they are certainly worthy of debate. But the top three?
It's very hard to pick three issues. To do so, I have to be very general. In no particular order:
1. Human-caused violence on a large scale. Terrorism, war, oppressive governments, and so on.
2. Environmental damage on a large scale. Not just our old friend global warming, but such things as deforestation, extinctions, and so on.
3. Human misery which results from poverty. Lack of clean water and sufficient food, basic medical care, and so on.
There is no one most effective way to deal with these problems. They must be dealt with by organizations, public and private, as well as individuals. All of them are helped, to some extent, by liberal, representative, secular governments. All of them are helped, to some extent, by scientific research and technological progress. All of them are helped, to some extent, by the communication of accurate information.
1) What would you say are the 3 greatest moral issues of the day?
Here's a first attempt, off the cuff, reserving the right to modify:
There are too many, so I'll make another three-bullet list:
Here's a first attempt, off the cuff, reserving the right to modify:
- Family and personal values - protecting life (opposing abortion, murder, genocide, etc.), strengthening marriage(s) (opposing divorce, dilution, domestic violence, etc.), promoting adoption, advocating sobriety, teaching children the difference between right and wrong (a.k.a. morality), etc.
- Social and cultural values - charitably fighting hunger, disease, racism, sexism, slavery, oppression (political, economic, religious, ethnic, artistic, etc.), anti-social behavior, immorality (evil behavior in all forms), illiteracy, substance dependency, etc.; while building friendship, goodwill, community, freedom, responsibility, consensus, etc.
- Global and universal values - being good stewards of the environment, reducing the risk of war/hostility/destruction via democracy/trade/tact/peace, exploring the universe (from microcosm to macrocosm through science, observation, transportation, etc.), electing wise leaders, leading wisely, meaningful participation in decision-making processes (conventions, ethics, laws, education, technology, etc.), etc., etc.
There are too many, so I'll make another three-bullet list:
- Spirituality (faith, philanthropy, etc.) - Frequent, regular participation in peaceful, active religious, spiritual, or secular humanitarian activities, inluding moral education, volunteer service, generous donations to worthwhile causes, etc.
- Enlightenment (education, communication, preparedness, etc.) - Constantly learning more about many subjects from many points of view, while developing special talents and interestest into fields of expertise, synthesizing broader knowledge into new understandings, developing new ideas and techniques, then sharing what you learn with others.
- Leadership (citizenship, activism, responsibility, duty, etc.) - Active, meaningful participation in the various social institutions (family, church, government, business, professional associations, civic organizations, schools, armed forces, art/culture societies, etc.) to help determine the best ways to fix what is broken as fairly as possible allowing as much freedom as reasonable, and move ahead.
1) What would you say are the 3 greatest moral issues of the day?
I see one major problem that needs to be addressed, and which informs a whole host of moral deficiencies: The declining lack of human empathy. This is a universal problem... as humanity gets used to seeing more of the world, we're also getting used to seeing people suffer as we never have before, and we're getting "turned off" by it. Nowadays I could probably walk down a major street with blood covering my face and only one in ten people would offer to help or ask if I am alright.
I see one major problem that needs to be addressed, and which informs a whole host of moral deficiencies: The declining lack of human empathy. This is a universal problem... as humanity gets used to seeing more of the world, we're also getting used to seeing people suffer as we never have before, and we're getting "turned off" by it. Nowadays I could probably walk down a major street with blood covering my face and only one in ten people would offer to help or ask if I am alright.
The 3 greatest moral issues:
1) Do you love God with all of your heart, soul and mind?
2) Do you love your neighbor as yourself?
3) The first two cover it all.
No one is capable of meeting the high aspirational standards defined in 1 and 2, admittedly, but we have all-but-quit trying to meet them at all, and from this failure, all other moral dilemmas and issues follow, IMHO.
Another way to put it is we have ceased to realize that we have a duty to our fellow man and not just to ourselves.
1) Do you love God with all of your heart, soul and mind?
2) Do you love your neighbor as yourself?
3) The first two cover it all.
No one is capable of meeting the high aspirational standards defined in 1 and 2, admittedly, but we have all-but-quit trying to meet them at all, and from this failure, all other moral dilemmas and issues follow, IMHO.
Another way to put it is we have ceased to realize that we have a duty to our fellow man and not just to ourselves.
QUOTE
1) What would you say are the 3 greatest moral issues of the day?
2) What do you believe is the most effective means of addressing these 3 issues?
2) What do you believe is the most effective means of addressing these 3 issues?
1. The growth of religious extremism and fanaticism world-wide, and its attempts to push back the progress made by science and humanist thought.
2. Environmental damage and the destruction wrought by humans on the planet, current on a scale never before seen or imagined.
Those are the two two in my mind. If we could eliminate both of those, so many other problems worldwide would simple cease to exist.
1) The growing disrespect for individual liberty worldwide. The substitution of the negative rights our forefathers cherished for positive rights.
2) The strange belief that all cultures are equal and should be embraced i.e. the trading of the melting pot for multiculturalism.
3) The focus away from equal opportunity and toward equal outcome.
2) The strange belief that all cultures are equal and should be embraced i.e. the trading of the melting pot for multiculturalism.
3) The focus away from equal opportunity and toward equal outcome.
1) What would you say are the 3 greatest moral issues of the day?
If we are talking greatest moral issues, I can think of only one. Most others are derived from a failing in this one:
Respect.
2) What do you believe is the most effective means of addressing these 3 issues?
Education.
If we are talking greatest moral issues, I can think of only one. Most others are derived from a failing in this one:
Respect.
2) What do you believe is the most effective means of addressing these 3 issues?
Education.
QUOTE(entspeak @ Mar 20 2007, 01:20 PM)
1) What would you say are the 3 greatest moral issues of the day?
If we are talking greatest moral issues, I can think of only one. Most others are derived from a failing in this one:
Respect.
2) What do you believe is the most effective means of addressing these 3 issues?
Education.
Wouldn't "education" really mean "indoctrination"? How can you be sure education will create "respect"? I would suggest education may well lead one to have contempt for the uneducated, among other things.
QUOTE(quick @ Mar 20 2007, 01:18 PM)
Wouldn't "education" really mean "indoctrination"? How can you be sure education will create "respect"? I would suggest education may well lead one to have contempt for the uneducated, among other things.
Only if you approached the education without respect.
Whether education is indoctrination depends on how it is approached.Nothing is sure. But ignorance most assuredly leads to contempt and disrespect, wouldn't you agree? We have evidence of that all around, don't we?
You might be under the belief that, by education, I am referring to a "school system"... an "education." I am not just referring to that. A school system is one means of achieving an education. But parents also play a role in our education - and, perhaps, a greater role in our moral education than a school sytem.
1) What would you say are the 3 greatest moral issues of the day?
The evangelicals seem mostly concerned with what people do with their genitals. IMHO, that’s the least of our moral problems.
If I had to pick 3, it’s going to look a lot like Victoria Silverwolf’s list.
1- Human-caused violence, such as wars, genocide (religious and otherwise), oppressive and cruel governments
2- Destruction of our environment, pollution of our oceans and rivers, and destruction of entire species
3- Poverty/Women’s rights
2) What do you believe is the most effective means of addressing these 3 issues?
Most people, if it doesn’t affect them directly, just don’t care. Apathy is the biggest problem. As we’ve seen in the microcosm of
, few care about wars, global warming and people starving to death, and some even support it or don’t think it’s worth caring about. Private organizations do heroic work on various human rights issues, but as long as governments are male-dominated, corporate-minded, and aggressive, we will continue to see more wars, more terrorism, more poverty and more starvation. Our priorities are AFU.
The evangelicals seem mostly concerned with what people do with their genitals. IMHO, that’s the least of our moral problems.
If I had to pick 3, it’s going to look a lot like Victoria Silverwolf’s list.
1- Human-caused violence, such as wars, genocide (religious and otherwise), oppressive and cruel governments
2- Destruction of our environment, pollution of our oceans and rivers, and destruction of entire species
3- Poverty/Women’s rights
2) What do you believe is the most effective means of addressing these 3 issues?
Most people, if it doesn’t affect them directly, just don’t care. Apathy is the biggest problem. As we’ve seen in the microcosm of
, few care about wars, global warming and people starving to death, and some even support it or don’t think it’s worth caring about. Private organizations do heroic work on various human rights issues, but as long as governments are male-dominated, corporate-minded, and aggressive, we will continue to see more wars, more terrorism, more poverty and more starvation. Our priorities are AFU.
Well, I suppose I should answer my own topic now... 
1) What would you say are the 3 greatest moral issues of the day?
2) What do you believe is the most effective means of addressing these 3 issues?
#1 - On the American scene: Smaller government, elimination of forced charity. Put simply, the smaller government is, the less opportunity there is for gov't corruption.
On the international scene: Annihilation of the most corrupt governments (Mugabe and North Korea top the list). Note that Mugabe presents little to no threat to America, ditto for the situation in Darfur. North Korea does pose a threat to us, but a greater threat to our friends. In both instances, they pose the greatest threat to their own people.
#2 - Eliminate no-fault divorce, bar same sex marriage, minimize support of unwed mothers, reintroduce shame as a social control regarding family relationships and sex. Apply the shame to the morally deficient of both sexes.
#3 - This is a wide ranging issue, but it covers everything from the taxpayer footing the bill to rebuild a beach home wiped out for the umpteenth time by storms, to the demands for taxpayer paid abortions, excusing criminals because of they're "underpriviledged", etc. Socially and politically, we need to put a premium on individual responsibility.
1) What would you say are the 3 greatest moral issues of the day?
- Theft and corruption either by the government, or with government approval.
- Failure to form and maintain optimal families.
- Personal irresponsibilty and societal enabling of personal irresponsibility.
2) What do you believe is the most effective means of addressing these 3 issues?
#1 - On the American scene: Smaller government, elimination of forced charity. Put simply, the smaller government is, the less opportunity there is for gov't corruption.
On the international scene: Annihilation of the most corrupt governments (Mugabe and North Korea top the list). Note that Mugabe presents little to no threat to America, ditto for the situation in Darfur. North Korea does pose a threat to us, but a greater threat to our friends. In both instances, they pose the greatest threat to their own people.
#2 - Eliminate no-fault divorce, bar same sex marriage, minimize support of unwed mothers, reintroduce shame as a social control regarding family relationships and sex. Apply the shame to the morally deficient of both sexes.
#3 - This is a wide ranging issue, but it covers everything from the taxpayer footing the bill to rebuild a beach home wiped out for the umpteenth time by storms, to the demands for taxpayer paid abortions, excusing criminals because of they're "underpriviledged", etc. Socially and politically, we need to put a premium on individual responsibility.
1) What would you say are the 3 greatest moral issues of the day
1)Environment. Without it we perish, so its self explanatory.
2)Truth and Honesty. Without the desire to live in a factual reality you invite basically the other, this of course speaks on so much.
3)Iraq.
2) What do you believe is the most effective means of addressing these 3 issues?
1) Learning and the application of such knowledge is all that is really required, such as what caused acid rain or holes in the ozone layer, we can learn how to not do such, and via learning people can come to understand why the environment is important, even in relation to populations of other types of living things.
2) Absolute understanding empirically of reality or nature, whichever word you find comfort in. With this I think most any of our problems would go away as they are products of ignorance in my opinion.
3) Iraq is simply bad all around the board for everyone involved, its need a massive shift in a different direction, either that or the be halted immediately.
1)Environment. Without it we perish, so its self explanatory.
2)Truth and Honesty. Without the desire to live in a factual reality you invite basically the other, this of course speaks on so much.
3)Iraq.
2) What do you believe is the most effective means of addressing these 3 issues?
1) Learning and the application of such knowledge is all that is really required, such as what caused acid rain or holes in the ozone layer, we can learn how to not do such, and via learning people can come to understand why the environment is important, even in relation to populations of other types of living things.
2) Absolute understanding empirically of reality or nature, whichever word you find comfort in. With this I think most any of our problems would go away as they are products of ignorance in my opinion.
3) Iraq is simply bad all around the board for everyone involved, its need a massive shift in a different direction, either that or the be halted immediately.
QUOTE(Bikerdad @ Mar 20 2007, 03:31 PM)
Well, I suppose I should answer my own topic now...
1) What would you say are the 3 greatest moral issues of the day?
- Theft and corruption either by the government, or with government approval.
- Failure to form and maintain optimal families.
- Personal irresponsibilty and societal enabling of personal irresponsibility.
#1 - On the American scene: Smaller government, elimination of forced charity. Put simply, the smaller government is, the less opportunity there is for gov't corruption.
On the international scene: Annihilation of the most corrupt governments (Mugabe and North Korea top the list). Note that Mugabe presents little to no threat to America, ditto for the situation in Darfur. North Korea does pose a threat to us, but a greater threat to our friends. In both instances, they pose the greatest threat to their own people.
#2 - Eliminate no-fault divorce, bar same sex marriage, minimize support of unwed mothers, reintroduce shame as a social control regarding family relationships and sex. Apply the shame to the morally deficient of both sexes.
#3 - This is a wide ranging issue, but it covers everything from the taxpayer footing the bill to rebuild a beach home wiped out for the umpteenth time by storms, to the demands for taxpayer paid abortions, excusing criminals because of they're "underpriviledged", etc. Socially and politically, we need to put a premium on individual responsibility.
Would this be based in the Judeo-Christian values that are - supposedly - the core of this country? So much for the meek inheriting the earth, he who is without sin... and all those other great quotes. Fixing immorality through immoral behavior - interesting concept.
1) What would you say are the 3 greatest moral issues of the day
!) How do we intelligently control human reproduction, or in other words, how do we end the rapid expansion of the human population?
2) The devaluation of individual liberty.
3) The public acceptance of theft, corruption by the government or with government approval.
2) What do you believe is the most effective means of addressing these 3 issues?
Shucks. If I knew that, I would be doing it. Hopefully, discussions of such issues will lead to a plan. One of the reasons I have some hope is the gathering of ideas here at AD. These problems are one tough ground to hoe.
!) How do we intelligently control human reproduction, or in other words, how do we end the rapid expansion of the human population?
2) The devaluation of individual liberty.
3) The public acceptance of theft, corruption by the government or with government approval.
2) What do you believe is the most effective means of addressing these 3 issues?
Shucks. If I knew that, I would be doing it. Hopefully, discussions of such issues will lead to a plan. One of the reasons I have some hope is the gathering of ideas here at AD. These problems are one tough ground to hoe.
I think UltimateJoe nailed number one.
I think that the decline of unselfish love as a value to be sought after is key.
In fact let's try and hit the roots of the problem.
1. The near-death of "virtue" as a goal among human beings: Fact is a lot of us don't even want to be moral. No point is talking about declining morality if the idea itself is being rejected at an alarming rate.
2. The myth of "enlightened" self-interest: The oxymoronic substitute for morality that is gaining popularity these days (though to be honest this has been a few centuries coming
)
It is characteristic of society to evaluate alternatives using a risk-benefit comparison and then to define those benefits rather narrowly to themselves or a choice few they think are worth the effort.
3. The defeatist attitude that prevails when confronting numbers 1 and 2.
We don't have to be immoral, selfish, callous, or ignorant either as individuals or as a society. Human nature is used as an excuse for our actions far too often.
Our unwillingness to take responsibility for the state of our society is what lets all the other problems flourish.
I think that the decline of unselfish love as a value to be sought after is key.
In fact let's try and hit the roots of the problem.
1. The near-death of "virtue" as a goal among human beings: Fact is a lot of us don't even want to be moral. No point is talking about declining morality if the idea itself is being rejected at an alarming rate.
2. The myth of "enlightened" self-interest: The oxymoronic substitute for morality that is gaining popularity these days (though to be honest this has been a few centuries coming
) It is characteristic of society to evaluate alternatives using a risk-benefit comparison and then to define those benefits rather narrowly to themselves or a choice few they think are worth the effort.
3. The defeatist attitude that prevails when confronting numbers 1 and 2.
We don't have to be immoral, selfish, callous, or ignorant either as individuals or as a society. Human nature is used as an excuse for our actions far too often.
Our unwillingness to take responsibility for the state of our society is what lets all the other problems flourish.
QUOTE(Victoria Silverwolf @ Mar 20 2007, 12:00 AM)
Here's an essay by Jim Wallis which deals with this debate.
Link
James Dobson pretty clearly outlines his three great moral issues, from which he believes the debate within evangelical American Christianity about global warming is drawing attention.
QUOTE
. . . the great moral issues of our time, notably the sanctity of human life, the integrity of marriage and the teaching of sexual abstinence and morality to our children.
Let's be clear what this means. "The sanctity of human life" mostly means abortion, with a little attention drawn to euthanasia. "The integrity of marriage" means same-sex marriage. "Sexual abstinence" is pretty clear, and "morality" here seems to refer entirely to sexuality.
Now these are not trivial issues. I happen to think that James Dobson is completely wrong about all of them, and they are certainly worthy of debate. But the top three?
It's very hard to pick three issues. To do so, I have to be very general. In no particular order:
1. Human-caused violence on a large scale. Terrorism, war, oppressive governments, and so on.
2. Environmental damage on a large scale. Not just our old friend global warming, but such things as deforestation, extinctions, and so on.
3. Human misery which results from poverty. Lack of clean water and sufficient food, basic medical care, and so on.
There is no one most effective way to deal with these problems. They must be dealt with by organizations, public and private, as well as individuals. All of them are helped, to some extent, by liberal, representative, secular governments. All of them are helped, to some extent, by scientific research and technological progress. All of them are helped, to some extent, by the communication of accurate information.
I totally agree with the three issues Victoria Silverwood cites above. One thing that would affect American life to the better would be if we heard less of Dr. James Dobson and his ilk. The "family values" debate needs to be "deep sixed" forever. Religion and politics should never be mentioned in the same sentence!
It would be wonderful if the "religious right" would consider in depth why they only care about potential human beings while they are still in the womb!
We need to reconsider our "stand" on why we feel morally obligated to force democracy on other countries, sacrificing American lives to do it! These are just a couple of irksome issues for me.
QUOTE(Turnea)
We don't have to be immoral, selfish, callous, or ignorant either as individuals or as a society. Human nature is used as an excuse for our actions far too often.
Our unwillingness to take responsibility for the state of our society is what lets all the other problems flourish.
Our unwillingness to take responsibility for the state of our society is what lets all the other problems flourish.
Ahh but you see Turnea, its not 'our society' any more is it. We're not allowed to believe in our nations any more or our people. We have to believe in every one now, accept everyone, embrace them. We're not allowed to think of ourselves as better, or good, or have opinions that run contrary to accepted wisdom. If we do, we're racist, nationalist, bigoted, sexist, intolerant.
Once upon a time, nations were built on a sense of belonging, society was about identity. Today, identity is something decided by a number and society belongs to politics. Multiculture has been introduced as the new model for society, but multiculture is a fabricated charade designed to put a brave face on the declining social fabric brought about by 'globalisation' and cheap air tickets .
Your lamenting an unwillingness to take responsibility for the state of our society but what is 'our society'? How am I supposed to take responsibility for the actions of other people, of people who were born in my country and its culture, but do not care about them because they have a different ethnic identity, or a different religion or that they just don't give a damn? How do I take responsibility for them? Its bad enough that by virtue of taxes, I'm already paying for these people to enter this country in their thousands and set up ghetto's and introduce an alien and hostile religion but now I'm supposed to feel some sort of social bond with them? How? And just why exactly?
Why should I accept people who's fundamental perspective is opposed to me and all I was raised to believe in? I don't owe these people anything.
Western, Hellenistic morality is based on the golden rule, That if you want respect, then you must give respect, that you should treat others as you would be treated, but reality is based on the law of the jungle. Eat them before they eat you.
Then I have to ask myself, which is stronger, human morality, or human mortality? Here I am living my life, not hurting any one and being polite and friendly to all I meet, then one day I am accosted by two Arabs trying to break into my flat. Now, I could do the Ghandi thing and let them do as they will. Be totally pacifist and refuse to react with aggression. They might tie me up, rape my girl friend then kill us all, but at least I was not violent. At least my morality remained intact!
Or, I could defend myself, retain my mortality and possibly faces charges of manslaughter, or even murder afterwards. Both cases have happened, right here in Denmark within the last year.
Every action has a reaction and I don't accept any exterior moral argument that determines how I should react. There is the law of the land and thats it as far as I am concerned. I do not feel empathy for people who want to hurt me, or take away my country and turn it into their country. As far as I am concerned, my country deserves to survive and the enemies of my country should be killed.
1) What would you say are the 3 greatest moral issues of the day?
Self preservation. The preservation of family and friends. The preservation of the nation.
QUOTE(ottimista @ Mar 20 2007, 11:27 PM)
I totally agree with the three issues Victoria Silverwood cites above. One thing that would affect American life to the better would be if we heard less of Dr. James Dobson and his ilk. The "family values" debate needs to be "deep sixed" forever. Religion and politics should never be mentioned in the same sentence!
It would be wonderful if the "religious right" would consider in depth why they only care about potential human beings while they are still in the womb!
We need to reconsider our "stand" on why we feel morally obligated to force democracy on other countries, sacrificing American lives to do it! These are just a couple of irksome issues for me.
ottimista - What is it about James Dobson and his ilk that so revolts you? Is it possible that many a secularist may not only believe in the "family values" message but also believe that some of these standards should be protected by supporting certain laws that continue to strengthen the family?
Your broad brush stroke, "Religion and politics should never be mentioned in the same sentence!", is quite the attention grabber. Do you really mean that? Your final comment from that same paragraph is quite the generalization. I consider my own beliefs to parallel many of those held by the "religious right". Are you suggesting that I "only care about potential humans being while they are still in the womb"? That's quite an insensitive comment to make.
IMO, the major moral issues of our time include (not necessarily in this order): 1) The declining lack of human empathy in the world (credited to UltimateJoe), 2) the decline of traditional, individual moral values (yikes, maybe even a little of what Dobson suggests!), and 3) the need to serve our fellowman in individual, "removed-from-the-public-eyes" sorts of ways.
QUOTE(vanguard @ Mar 20 2007, 08:19 PM)
QUOTE(ottimista @ Mar 20 2007, 11:27 PM)
I totally agree with the three issues Victoria Silverwood cites above. One thing that would affect American life to the better would be if we heard less of Dr. James Dobson and his ilk. The "family values" debate needs to be "deep sixed" forever. Religion and politics should never be mentioned in the same sentence!
It would be wonderful if the "religious right" would consider in depth why they only care about potential human beings while they are still in the womb!
We need to reconsider our "stand" on why we feel morally obligated to force democracy on other countries, sacrificing American lives to do it! These are just a couple of irksome issues for me.
ottimista - What is it about James Dobson and his ilk that so revolts you? Is it possible that many a secularist may not only believe in the "family values" message but also believe that some of these standards should be protected by supporting certain laws that continue to strengthen the family?
Your broad brush stroke, "Religion and politics should never be mentioned in the same sentence!", is quite the attention grabber. Do you really mean that? Your final comment from that same paragraph is quite the generalization. I consider my own beliefs to parallel many of those held by the "religious right". Are you suggesting that I "only care about potential humans being while they are still in the womb"? That's quite an insensitive comment to make.
IMO, the major moral issues of our time include (not necessarily in this order): 1) The declining lack of human empathy in the world (credited to UltimateJoe), 2) the decline of traditional, individual moral values (yikes, maybe even a little of what Dobson suggests!), and 3) the need to serve our fellowman in individual, "removed-from-the-public-eyes" sorts of ways.
Vanguard, I can totally understand your position. "Family Values" has been repeated ad infinitum through many, many presidential campaigns. If anything, the state of the family in America has worsened. If we want to turn to the evangelical television channel, that is indeed our option. BUT, let's not mix up religion and politics together and make it the Republican Party, because that is exactly what the Republican Party of this day and age is! It has been taken over by the "religious right"!
Regarding "potential human beings", I am referring to all of the protesters and activists who petition, run for office under the Pro-Life banner, and then give no thought or action to the state of the Foster Home Program in America! Yes, I am painting with a broad brush the fact that there is so much talk and muster regarding Pro-Life and no talk and muster for living children who are thrust into the FHP. I am sure everybody, if pressed, could point to foster parents who are "shining examples" etc., but believe me when I say they are the exception and not the rule. Someone in AD referred to Foster Parents' Rights, and I think they should have their rights, but I don't think I'm asking too much for background checks to be run on potential FP's, psychological work-ups and credit checks statewide before granting them licenses. We need to care for the living children who are already here, and the situation has become much worse over the last twenty years as I'm sure you know.
PRO-CHOICE to me is a moral issue! It should not be legislated by government. It should be between a woman and her physician, and be a totally personal matter. If we want to spend money and our time on an issue, then let's spend it helping the living children who are already born! Just my opinion.......
QUOTE(vanguard @ Mar 21 2007, 03:19 AM)
Is it possible that many a secularist may not only believe in the "family values" message but also believe that some of these standards should be protected by supporting certain laws that continue to strengthen the family?
Nobody is questioning that 'family values' are important to almost everyone. The problem is that this is much like saying 'happiness' is important to everyone: true but essentially meaningless.
The problem is that everyone has completely different definitions of what 'family values' means. For some 'family values' means interfering in how other families are run, organised and seek happiness within the law. That is just unfortunate.
The religious right's definitionn of family values is just one of many, and thier strict definition tends to be more proscriptive than most. Unfortunately in some cases (but not all, to be sure), that the problem stops being about 'values' and the problem becomes the evils of religious extremism. I think for the purposes of this debate we should try and avoid listing 'family values' (subsequently undefined) as one of the 'issues', or at least explain what exactly that means. Otherwise it is meaningless.
1) What would you say are the 3 greatest moral issues of the day?
1. Those who use religion to push a political agenda based on their religious beliefs.
2. Education
3. Health Care
2) What do you believe is the most effective means of addressing these 3 issues?
Education, for one can never have enough. A lot of our current problems exist today for the lack of education one can use in his everyday life. Currently our educational system is steered towards performing specific job tasks.
Its wrong for someone to use selected portions of history to support their agenda.
1. Those who use religion to push a political agenda based on their religious beliefs.
2. Education
3. Health Care
2) What do you believe is the most effective means of addressing these 3 issues?
Education, for one can never have enough. A lot of our current problems exist today for the lack of education one can use in his everyday life. Currently our educational system is steered towards performing specific job tasks.
Its wrong for someone to use selected portions of history to support their agenda.
QUOTE(entspeak @ Mar 20 2007, 02:24 PM)
QUOTE(quick @ Mar 20 2007, 01:18 PM)
Wouldn't "education" really mean "indoctrination"? How can you be sure education will create "respect"? I would suggest education may well lead one to have contempt for the uneducated, among other things.
Only if you approached the education without respect.
Whether education is indoctrination depends on how it is approached.Nothing is sure. But ignorance most assuredly leads to contempt and disrespect, wouldn't you agree? We have evidence of that all around, don't we?
You might be under the belief that, by education, I am referring to a "school system"... an "education." I am not just referring to that. A school system is one means of achieving an education. But parents also play a role in our education - and, perhaps, a greater role in our moral education than a school sytem.
Unless by education you simply mean an imparting of facts, which I would submit to you isn't edifying at all and isn't really education, education requires as pre-requisites a theory of knowledge, a theory of truth, and the pursuit of an end. I would submit to you that all of these, and particularly the second and third, could well lead to a complete lack of respect for others in certain groups or categories and are intrinsic to an education.
1) What would you say are the 3 greatest moral issues of the day?
1) the attempt by the religious right here in the US, and Islam in much of the rest of the world's, attempt to enslave humanity in order to further thier power- so the greatest moral threat is the re-assension of religion after a short age of reason.
2) Corruption of western style liberal democracy by corporations - another great suppressor of freedom- so the next big moral question- how do we free ourselves from corporate enslavement while maintaining a capitalist society?
3) How do we define sexuality in moral terms?- would be another- sex with consenting adults- any sex they wish to participate in, has been a troublesome question for the forces of anti-freedom- i.e.- christianity and other judeo-islamic-christian religions- thier attempt to oppress other humans through limiting natural sexual expression I consider to be one of the great moral issues.
Bikerdad and others really would love to see the world enslaved under christianities "goodness" - because they hate the thought of individuals they don't agree with having the same freedoms of themselves.
This is the cyclical nature of humanity- we throw off the yoke of enslavement for a while, then run back under the yoke after we discover freedom means not just freedom for "me" - but freedom for those I don't find so appealing. Look at our laws- we have THOUSANDS of useless laws that have no bearing whatsoever on keeping our children and our homes safe- they are there because some church lady and her hen-pecked husband, who is the closet (fill in the blank) perp, well, she wants to make sure what he is doing is at least illegal
The great moral issue of the day is this -
do we let religions of the world oppress us, or do we remain free?
1) the attempt by the religious right here in the US, and Islam in much of the rest of the world's, attempt to enslave humanity in order to further thier power- so the greatest moral threat is the re-assension of religion after a short age of reason.
2) Corruption of western style liberal democracy by corporations - another great suppressor of freedom- so the next big moral question- how do we free ourselves from corporate enslavement while maintaining a capitalist society?
3) How do we define sexuality in moral terms?- would be another- sex with consenting adults- any sex they wish to participate in, has been a troublesome question for the forces of anti-freedom- i.e.- christianity and other judeo-islamic-christian religions- thier attempt to oppress other humans through limiting natural sexual expression I consider to be one of the great moral issues.
Bikerdad and others really would love to see the world enslaved under christianities "goodness"
- because they hate the thought of individuals they don't agree with having the same freedoms of themselves.This is the cyclical nature of humanity- we throw off the yoke of enslavement for a while, then run back under the yoke after we discover freedom means not just freedom for "me" - but freedom for those I don't find so appealing. Look at our laws- we have THOUSANDS of useless laws that have no bearing whatsoever on keeping our children and our homes safe- they are there because some church lady and her hen-pecked husband, who is the closet (fill in the blank) perp, well, she wants to make sure what he is doing is at least illegal
The great moral issue of the day is this -
do we let religions of the world oppress us, or do we remain free?
QUOTE(quick @ Mar 21 2007, 12:46 PM)
Unless by education you simply mean an imparting of facts, which I would submit to you isn't edifying at all and isn't really education,
I don't mean simply an imparting of facts.
QUOTE
education requires as pre-requisites a theory of knowledge, a theory of truth, and the pursuit of an end. I would submit to you that all of these, and particularly the second and third, could well lead to a complete lack of respect for others in certain groups or categories and are intrinsic to an education.
And where does one acquire a theory of knowledge, a theory of truth and a knowledge of the end one wishes to pursue?
You claim that these are pre-requisites to education, and, yet, it seems to me that one must learn what these are. Do you do that through osmosis? Are they instinctual? Does a young, young child have a theory about what knowledge is? Does it have any concept of truth? Does it have any desire beyond the immediate? Does it learn? Yes, it does.
A theory of mind - very much a component of empathy - may be a pre-requisite for education when it comes to moral issues. It is believed that theory of mind develops in children at about the age of four.
If one is teaching respect, one is learning respect... unless that education is rejected, how can that lead to a lack of respect?
QUOTE(Vermillion @ Mar 21 2007, 01:24 PM)
Nobody is questioning that 'family values' are important to almost everyone. The problem is that this is much like saying 'happiness' is important to everyone: true but essentially meaningless.
I did not suggest that anyone was questioning the importance of family values. I was only taking ottimista to task on what I considered an unfair characterization of Dobson's emphasis on the importance of family.
QUOTE
The problem is that everyone has completely different definitions of what 'family values' means. For some 'family values' means interfering in how other families are run, organised and seek happiness within the law. That is just unfortunate.
This is true. Many however believe in the importance of recognizing the ideal (apparently yourself also) in maintaining the "mother/father" dyad in childrearing.
QUOTE
The religious right's definitionn of family values is just one of many, and thier strict definition tends to be more proscriptive than most. Unfortunately in some cases (but not all, to be sure), that the problem stops being about 'values' and the problem becomes the evils of religious extremism. I think for the purposes of this debate we should try and avoid listing 'family values' (subsequently undefined) as one of the 'issues', or at least explain what exactly that means. Otherwise it is meaningless.
I'm not sure if you're suggesting that I had listed this as one of the "issues"? Don't misunderstand, I'm somewhat in agreement with much of what you said only that I did not present family values as something to be addressed on this thread.
Tell me Vermillion, what is wrong with protecting what a majority may believe is important enough to protect (i.e., recognizing the ideal of the mother/father dyad in childrearing apart from any other arrangement)? Is there not an argument for honoring the majority voice (assuming it is a majority) in this regard?
QUOTE(vanguard @ Mar 21 2007, 04:55 PM)
QUOTE(Vermillion @ Mar 21 2007, 01:24 PM)
Nobody is questioning that 'family values' are important to almost everyone. The problem is that this is much like saying 'happiness' is important to everyone: true but essentially meaningless.
I did not suggest that anyone was questioning the importance of family values. I was only taking ottimista to task on what I considered an unfair characterization of Dobson's emphasis on the importance of family.
QUOTE
The problem is that everyone has completely different definitions of what 'family values' means. For some 'family values' means interfering in how other families are run, organised and seek happiness within the law. That is just unfortunate.
This is true. Many however believe in the importance of recognizing the ideal (apparently yourself also) in maintaining the "mother/father" dyad in childrearing.
QUOTE
The religious right's definitionn of family values is just one of many, and thier strict definition tends to be more proscriptive than most. Unfortunately in some cases (but not all, to be sure), that the problem stops being about 'values' and the problem becomes the evils of religious extremism. I think for the purposes of this debate we should try and avoid listing 'family values' (subsequently undefined) as one of the 'issues', or at least explain what exactly that means. Otherwise it is meaningless.
I'm not sure if you're suggesting that I had listed this as one of the "issues"? Don't misunderstand, I'm somewhat in agreement with much of what you said only that I did not present family values as something to be addressed on this thread.
Tell me Vermillion, what is wrong with protecting what a majority may believe is important enough to protect (i.e., recognizing the ideal of the mother/father dyad in childrearing apart from any other arrangement)? Is there not an argument for honoring the majority voice (assuming it is a majority) in this regard?
NOT if it means that you can take away a right of the minority that the majority has, the majority should NEVER have MORE rights than the minority. THAT is what civil rights are all about- and why this is the same cyclical argument and "war" in the US- there are still a large number of poeple, I don't know if it is a single monolithic majority or anything- that don't have a problem taking away a right from someone, as long as they retain the right themselves. You know, like the black/white thing less than 40 years ago?
There wasa time the majority of Americans believed that it was right to own black poeple. Thy didn't, and they were wrong, and history is correct to think badly of those poeple for it. The majority of Americans were WRONG in 1948 when they thought blacks were not equal as whites.
The same can be said now, with this debate.
With many of the replies it seems people think the great moral issue of our day is the family unit. Well how would you go about regulating a family unit, and on what level or degree does such behavior in itself cross any lines in regards to ethics. I don’t think you can really legislate family values, or at least attempting to would be some gross venture in tyranny in my opinion.
Empathy, again, how do you legislate something like that, what exactly should that be. I take care not to step on ants, does that make me a great person. Heck if we know negative treatment of people can lead to depression does that make someone who acts on a natural impulse to be mean in a giving situation evil, can a person do no wrong at that point? I cant empathize with this administration and actually have parties in the works for dates of natural causes type cessation for certain individuals in it.
Pro-life and pro-choice groups. It would be more thrilling to think of pro life more then pro bible thumpers but I don’t see those people out in troves denouncing war, its not really moral as much as its carrot on a stick type of behavior, plus on the pro life side killing your child after its become more then a clump of cells really should have a serious reason to occur, I would even opt for criminal charges such as sterilization.
Then we have government corruption. Well, what’s that song, everybody wants to rule the world, tears for fears if I remember. That’s about the truth to the corruption, but hey how can you be wrong when you know you are right!
I might want to poke some fun about homosexuality but I don’t want anyone to fear the rapist in the shower.
Health care like education and most everything else will eventually collapse due to pressure from human population, as in there simply is not enough to go around, you build more, but you keep having to do that, eventually we will be paving the oceans with parking lots and strip malls so you can buy the latest object to occupy a land fill.
Religion has had thousands of years to make things right, but I don’t think I need to point this out.
The world in general is full of people that know what’s right and wrong, and of course they all want the best for what’s right and the worst for what’s wrong, so I guess that’s why we need nukes to protect ourselves at large.
I do know that some good old global warming will sure help, more so when our neat little CO2 concentration goes over a thousand ppm. I almost wish I could live long enough to see what various anti environmental types will be saying, probably something about having the personal freedom to bring extinction should be protected or something.
Empathy, again, how do you legislate something like that, what exactly should that be. I take care not to step on ants, does that make me a great person. Heck if we know negative treatment of people can lead to depression does that make someone who acts on a natural impulse to be mean in a giving situation evil, can a person do no wrong at that point? I cant empathize with this administration and actually have parties in the works for dates of natural causes type cessation for certain individuals in it.
Pro-life and pro-choice groups. It would be more thrilling to think of pro life more then pro bible thumpers but I don’t see those people out in troves denouncing war, its not really moral as much as its carrot on a stick type of behavior, plus on the pro life side killing your child after its become more then a clump of cells really should have a serious reason to occur, I would even opt for criminal charges such as sterilization.
Then we have government corruption. Well, what’s that song, everybody wants to rule the world, tears for fears if I remember. That’s about the truth to the corruption, but hey how can you be wrong when you know you are right!
I might want to poke some fun about homosexuality but I don’t want anyone to fear the rapist in the shower.
Health care like education and most everything else will eventually collapse due to pressure from human population, as in there simply is not enough to go around, you build more, but you keep having to do that, eventually we will be paving the oceans with parking lots and strip malls so you can buy the latest object to occupy a land fill.
Religion has had thousands of years to make things right, but I don’t think I need to point this out.
The world in general is full of people that know what’s right and wrong, and of course they all want the best for what’s right and the worst for what’s wrong, so I guess that’s why we need nukes to protect ourselves at large.
I do know that some good old global warming will sure help, more so when our neat little CO2 concentration goes over a thousand ppm. I almost wish I could live long enough to see what various anti environmental types will be saying, probably something about having the personal freedom to bring extinction should be protected or something.
QUOTE(vanguard @ Mar 22 2007, 01:55 AM)
This is true. Many however believe in the importance of recognizing the ideal (apparently yourself also) in maintaining the "mother/father" dyad in childrearing.
That's an interesting interpretation of what I said. I see it as many would rather hundreds of thousands of kids stayed in the foster system or in orphanages rather than take a chance that they might be exposed to gayness. Riddle me this Vanguard: which is better for random child X?
-growing up moving between foster homes and halfway houses.
-growing up in a neglectful or abusive household.
-growing up in an orphanage
-growing up with two loving, respectful, stable and decent parents of the same gender.
...because for children in the system, growing up with two loving, respectful, stable and decent parents of the opposite gender isn't vutting it, there are hundreds of thousands of children right now waiting in the system.
QUOTE
Tell me Vermillion, what is wrong with protecting what a majority may believe is important enough to protect (i.e., recognizing the ideal of the mother/father dyad in childrearing apart from any other arrangement)? Is there not an argument for honoring the majority voice (assuming it is a majority) in this regard?
Ah the appeal to the majority. I'll tell you what's wrong with it vanguard. The majority of people in the US want legal abortions. Does the appeal of the majority apply there as well? Or does it only apply when it is convenient for you? Furthermore, if the majority tips 51% in favour of accepting civil unions or gay marriages, will you thus instamntly accept it is right and good and needs to be legalised?
And thats not even going into all those wonderful things the 'majority' have advocated in the past.
The religious right can choose to live how it wishes and apply its morals to its own families all it wants, within the law. When it starts trying to IMPOSE its morality on others, especially when this involves the denying of equality to a minority they happen to religiously find ooky due to an obscure anachronistic reference in an old testament book, then that is wrong.
That is why religious extremism is, in my mind, the critical moral issue of the day: its growth, its war on science, rationality and humanism, and its need to impose its religious values on others.
I'd say the greatest moral evil going on right now is torture.
Thank god we have conservatives around to remind us that morality begins and ends with what people do with their genitals or people might be concerned with torture.
Thank god we have conservatives around to remind us that morality begins and ends with what people do with their genitals or people might be concerned with torture.
The greatest moral issue and question of our time is WAR as an option to solve problems. It is the Most pressing, most oppressive and most detrimental to ourselves and others, to the environment, to our waning resources, ultimately to the ecomomy and wellbeing of everyone, worldwide, less a few who gain.
War is THE most taxing of all options, spiritually, mentally, physically, financially. It IS THE Greatest waste of Time, Money, Human Resource, Pollution of planet, the most detrimental of all things Under Our Control, that occurs today. Nothing compares. Not family values, nor civil rights, global warming or terrorism.
We MUST STOP supporting WARS as an option. 100%. Many universal problems would be allieviated if WAR was no longer an option. The money and resources used for War are a complete waste and could be used for much greater purposes. The wars are lies being perpetrated upon us, by both sides.
We ALL are pawns in wars, we are being used in the worst sense by the most powerful people
Henry Kissinger was a member of The Council for Foreign Relations, and I urge you to look into their activities. We are being used, and abused, on a grand scale.
Would it interest anyone that George Bush Sr. made his New World Order speech on Sept 11, 1990?
What is "our fifth objective?" Who's fifth objective is this? Who's wars are these?
This is NWO by design.
Its time to Wake Up! from a self imposed apathy and lack of critical thinking.
Our second moral issue is totalitarianism overtaking our freedom, our money is controlled by bankers who are breaking the nation, on purpose. All of your income taxes are being paid towards interest on national debt to private bankers, The Federal Reserve Bank. They are also financing the wars, both sides.
Investigate the Federal Reserve Bank. Know where your money comes from (printed out of thin air) and WHY you are going to war, why the value of the dollar is declining, why we have runaway inflation, which you are being told is a 'steady progressive economy'. Why many nations are converting to the Euro for trade as the dollar becomes nothing but paper. Find out about the North American Union which was created and signed into being, behind your backs, with no media attention. Goggle videos- 'Federal Reserve Bank' and become informed.
Then theres this gem:
The next moral conundrum we will face will be RFID chips you are going to be required to carry as a National ID card, as of a May 2008 Patriot Act Law, extending to 2013 (to allow states to implement) These chips contain all information about you AND tell where you are at any given time, your credit rating, money in bank, insured or not, citizen status, etc. every minute. This is not conjecture, it is now law.
You will not be allowed to board a plane, enter a Federal building, vote etc. without one. You likely have RFID chips already in your home as they are on many products and in all recent passports. Eventually you will be told that having one implanted in your body is mandatory for your own protection.
With your handy RFID you will just scan to buy things, go to the doctor or enter your place of employment, money will come directly from your bank account, or be charged to any of your known accounts. A cashless system.
The problem? Your RFID number can be turned off, making you a non entity and unable to even buy food or access your money. National ID cards are carrying retinal scans and fingerprints.
George Orwell anyone? Big Brother is watching you, for your own protection of course. This is not the future, its happening NOW. Please look it up. Dissent and civil disobedience to this is necessary.
Im not kidding, no conspiracy here, this is happening right now.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4...=AFTF&hl=en
War is THE most taxing of all options, spiritually, mentally, physically, financially. It IS THE Greatest waste of Time, Money, Human Resource, Pollution of planet, the most detrimental of all things Under Our Control, that occurs today. Nothing compares. Not family values, nor civil rights, global warming or terrorism.
We MUST STOP supporting WARS as an option. 100%. Many universal problems would be allieviated if WAR was no longer an option. The money and resources used for War are a complete waste and could be used for much greater purposes. The wars are lies being perpetrated upon us, by both sides.
We ALL are pawns in wars, we are being used in the worst sense by the most powerful people
QUOTE
People do not make wars; governments do.
~Ronald Reagan
~Ronald Reagan
QUOTE
“Today Americans would be outraged if U. N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order; tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told there was an outside threat from beyond, whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all people of the world will plead with world leaders to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well being granted to them by their world government.”
~ Henry Kissinger
“Military men are dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns for foreign policy.”
~ Henry Kissinger
~ Henry Kissinger
“Military men are dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns for foreign policy.”
~ Henry Kissinger
Henry Kissinger was a member of The Council for Foreign Relations, and I urge you to look into their activities. We are being used, and abused, on a grand scale.
Would it interest anyone that George Bush Sr. made his New World Order speech on Sept 11, 1990?
QUOTE
Out of these troubled times, our fifth objective -- a new world order? -- can emerge: a new era -- freer from the threat of terror, stronger in the pursuit of justice, and more secure in the quest for peace. An era in which the nations of the world, East and West, North and South, can prosper and live in harmony. A hundred generations have searched for this elusive path to peace, while a thousand wars raged across the span of human endeavor. Today that new world is struggling to be born, a world quite different from the one we've known. A world where the rule of law supplants the rule of the jungle. A world in which nations recognize the shared responsibility for freedom and justice. A world where the strong respect the rights of the weak. This is the vision that I shared with President Gorbachev in Helsinki. He and other leaders from Europe, the Gulf, and around the world understand that how we manage this crisis today could shape the future for generations to come.
What is "our fifth objective?" Who's fifth objective is this? Who's wars are these?
This is NWO by design.
Its time to Wake Up! from a self imposed apathy and lack of critical thinking.
Our second moral issue is totalitarianism overtaking our freedom, our money is controlled by bankers who are breaking the nation, on purpose. All of your income taxes are being paid towards interest on national debt to private bankers, The Federal Reserve Bank. They are also financing the wars, both sides.
QUOTE
"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -Woodrow Wilson, after signing the Federal Reserve into existence.
Investigate the Federal Reserve Bank. Know where your money comes from (printed out of thin air) and WHY you are going to war, why the value of the dollar is declining, why we have runaway inflation, which you are being told is a 'steady progressive economy'. Why many nations are converting to the Euro for trade as the dollar becomes nothing but paper. Find out about the North American Union which was created and signed into being, behind your backs, with no media attention. Goggle videos- 'Federal Reserve Bank' and become informed.
Then theres this gem:
QUOTE
David Rockefeller, founder of the aforementioned Trilateral Commission in June of 1991, addressed a meeting of that organization. 'We are grateful to The Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine,' Rockefeller told them, 'and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But, the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto-determination [read as 'democracy'] practiced in past centuries.'
The next moral conundrum we will face will be RFID chips you are going to be required to carry as a National ID card, as of a May 2008 Patriot Act Law, extending to 2013 (to allow states to implement) These chips contain all information about you AND tell where you are at any given time, your credit rating, money in bank, insured or not, citizen status, etc. every minute. This is not conjecture, it is now law.
You will not be allowed to board a plane, enter a Federal building, vote etc. without one. You likely have RFID chips already in your home as they are on many products and in all recent passports. Eventually you will be told that having one implanted in your body is mandatory for your own protection.
With your handy RFID you will just scan to buy things, go to the doctor or enter your place of employment, money will come directly from your bank account, or be charged to any of your known accounts. A cashless system.
The problem? Your RFID number can be turned off, making you a non entity and unable to even buy food or access your money. National ID cards are carrying retinal scans and fingerprints.
George Orwell anyone? Big Brother is watching you, for your own protection of course. This is not the future, its happening NOW. Please look it up. Dissent and civil disobedience to this is necessary.
Im not kidding, no conspiracy here, this is happening right now.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4...=AFTF&hl=en
1) What would you say are the 3 greatest moral issues of the day?
1. Are our contracts (local to global) among one another, through governments and treaties, moral and do they get us what we (morally if you wish) want?
2. Are these contracts consistent and are they being justly fulfilled?
3. Are we taking ourselves and the earth where we want/ought to, and how do we know we are doing it?
2) What do you believe is the most effective means of addressing these 3 issues?
[/quote]
Do Americas's Debate, talk, write, think and study!
1. Are our contracts (local to global) among one another, through governments and treaties, moral and do they get us what we (morally if you wish) want?
2. Are these contracts consistent and are they being justly fulfilled?
3. Are we taking ourselves and the earth where we want/ought to, and how do we know we are doing it?
2) What do you believe is the most effective means of addressing these 3 issues?
[/quote]
Do Americas's Debate, talk, write, think and study!
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