Full Version: ATF Raids Gun Dealer for Selling to Felons
ATF and local police department personnel shut down a flourishing gun store in Compton yesterday. This store has California’s highest number of weapons (892) used in crimes traced back to purchases made there.
Store employees made every effort to enable felons and gang members to buy guns from them, to the extent of using other people in “straw buys” if the purchaser couldn’t pass the background check.
And Boulevard Sales is hardly alone.
So, there are 45 stores that are worse!
A search of ATF’s website returned 495 results for items about gun dealers involved in illegal gun sales. Obviously, this isn't an isolated case. This report has a wealth of information about how criminals are buying legal guns: Shady Dealings
So, some questions for debate:
Does this put the lie to the myth that criminals don’t get their guns from legitimate dealers, or at least put a serious dent in that myth?
What more needs to be done about gun dealers trying to work around the system of background checks to sell guns to criminals?
Has the so-called "right to bear arms" begun to outweigh other people's rights to live peaceably without fear of being shot?
Store employees made every effort to enable felons and gang members to buy guns from them, to the extent of using other people in “straw buys” if the purchaser couldn’t pass the background check.
QUOTE
Investigators said store workers "coached" them to use a friend or girlfriend who could clear federally required background checks. Such sales, known as "straw" buys, are illegal.
In many instances, according to a sworn affidavit, the admitted felon counted the cash out of his own pocket in front of store employees. Fourteen such sales took place over the last 60 days, officials alleged.
"The informant would look at the gun and say [to his friend], 'I want that gun; you buy it for me,' " said John D'Angelo, the ATF agent who supervised the sting. "We had to show that the clerks knew exactly what was going on, and we had no problems doing so." LATimes
In many instances, according to a sworn affidavit, the admitted felon counted the cash out of his own pocket in front of store employees. Fourteen such sales took place over the last 60 days, officials alleged.
"The informant would look at the gun and say [to his friend], 'I want that gun; you buy it for me,' " said John D'Angelo, the ATF agent who supervised the sting. "We had to show that the clerks knew exactly what was going on, and we had no problems doing so." LATimes
And Boulevard Sales is hardly alone.
QUOTE
In a list compiled by The Americans for Gun Safety Foundation, the store ranked 46th nationwide in terms of the volume of sold guns traced to crimes between 1996 and 2000, with 436. (ibid.)
So, there are 45 stores that are worse!
A search of ATF’s website returned 495 results for items about gun dealers involved in illegal gun sales. Obviously, this isn't an isolated case. This report has a wealth of information about how criminals are buying legal guns: Shady DealingsQUOTE
Once it is shown that licensed gun dealers are the prime source for illegal guns, the next question is: How does this occur? Part Two of this report (and the Case Summaries at the end) answers this question by going inside gun stores to reveal the recurring patterns in which licensed gun dealers enable gun traffickers to acquire guns for the illegal market. For each pattern it should have been clear to the licensed gun dealer that he was complicit in supplying guns to the illegal market. - Shady Dealings
So, some questions for debate:
Does this put the lie to the myth that criminals don’t get their guns from legitimate dealers, or at least put a serious dent in that myth?
What more needs to be done about gun dealers trying to work around the system of background checks to sell guns to criminals?
Has the so-called "right to bear arms" begun to outweigh other people's rights to live peaceably without fear of being shot?
QUOTE(DaffyGrl @ Mar 23 2007, 02:34 PM) 
So, some questions for debate:
Does this put the lie to the myth that criminals don’t get their guns from legitimate dealers, or at least put a serious dent in that myth?
What more needs to be done about gun dealers trying to work around the system of background checks to sell guns to criminals?
Has the so-called "right to bear arms" begun to outweigh other people's rights to live peaceably without fear of being shot?
Umm... to answer the question, no. If the dealer was legitimately following the law, this wouldn't be a news story.
In my mind, this isn't a whole lot different than selling AK's from the back of your Dodge Caravan. Why is it? They were knowingly selling firearms against the law. Seems simple to me.
Gun dealers need to follow the law, and frankly the punishment should be extremely severe. Hard time in federal prison should dissuade otherwise law abiding citizens from doing these things.
The right to bear arms and gun law are two different things. Frankly, I'd love to see someone show how often guns purchased legally are used in crimes. The frank nature of this beast is that you can throw a whole book of laws on the issue, and people will purchase them illegally. Look at Mexico. Firearms are illegal, and drug gangs are some of the most violent people in the nation, and surely have guns.
My opinion is that the penalty for gun crimes should be extremely severe, particularly even on the sales end. If you sell a gun illegally you should go to jail. Frankly, criminals will get firearms regardless of what laws exist. Consider the notion of prohibition as a benchmark. Did it stop drinking? Of course not. Drug laws? They don't work either.
The average gun owner, law abiding and decent, is generally going to use the gun responsibly. Most Americans fall into this category. NO.... there's no lie or Myth about most criminals buying guns illegally. I'd love to see some factual information that proves otherwise... but frankly I'm confident that little or none exists.
Does this put the lie to the myth that criminals don’t get their guns from legitimate dealers, or at least put a serious dent in that myth?
I might put it another way. This story points out that illegal firearms don't always come from "the street" or from being stolen.
What more needs to be done about gun dealers trying to work around the system of background checks to sell guns to criminals?
The linked report offers a lot of good suggestions. In a nutshell, the gun industry needs to be severely regulated. A few random examples from the linked article is the fact that ATF inspectors can only make one surprise inspection of a firearms dealer per year. Another is the fact that, when instant background checks are approved, the records are no longer kept for 90 days (allowing them to be audited for accuracy,) but for only 24 hours.
If I may offer a strange analogy, the legal pornography industry is severely regulated to make sure that it has documented proof that its performers are of legal age. This is appropriate. Legal dealers of firearms should also be severely regulated to keep proper records.
Has the so-called "right to bear arms" begun to outweigh other people's rights to live peaceably without fear of being shot?
Let me make it clear here that I loathe and fear firearms, and that I will never exercise the right to bear them. That said, I do acknowledge such a right. What does not exist is the right to sell firearms without severe regulation; the right to bear firearms without severe regulation; the right to make use of firearms without severe regulation. This, in my mind, is what the "well regulated militia" clause means. The "militia" really is the ordinary citizen; but she must be "well-regulated."
I might put it another way. This story points out that illegal firearms don't always come from "the street" or from being stolen.
What more needs to be done about gun dealers trying to work around the system of background checks to sell guns to criminals?
The linked report offers a lot of good suggestions. In a nutshell, the gun industry needs to be severely regulated. A few random examples from the linked article is the fact that ATF inspectors can only make one surprise inspection of a firearms dealer per year. Another is the fact that, when instant background checks are approved, the records are no longer kept for 90 days (allowing them to be audited for accuracy,) but for only 24 hours.
If I may offer a strange analogy, the legal pornography industry is severely regulated to make sure that it has documented proof that its performers are of legal age. This is appropriate. Legal dealers of firearms should also be severely regulated to keep proper records.
Has the so-called "right to bear arms" begun to outweigh other people's rights to live peaceably without fear of being shot?
Let me make it clear here that I loathe and fear firearms, and that I will never exercise the right to bear them. That said, I do acknowledge such a right. What does not exist is the right to sell firearms without severe regulation; the right to bear firearms without severe regulation; the right to make use of firearms without severe regulation. This, in my mind, is what the "well regulated militia" clause means. The "militia" really is the ordinary citizen; but she must be "well-regulated."
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