In both Mrs Ps post about "war monopolies" and the numerous posts on Blackwell, Haliburton etc- we talk about "capitalism" and "free market" and "privitazation" (like Walter Reed hospital)- all of this fradulent and corrupt behavior on the part of big biz and the defense industry- makes you wonder- if we are truly "free market" why don't we fire them and go looking for someone more honest- take Haliburton- as corrupt as Enron, any day of the week- been found out to have NUMEROUS fraudulent charges by the GAO, doesn't a day go by when these thieves aren't in the news.

When a supplier rips me off, I never do biz with them again, let alone make them the sole source of my materials - so why the "pass" instead of jail time for these scumbags at haliburton/KRB?
For instance:
http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/about_hal/chronology.html


December: Kellogg, Brown & Root secures a 10-year deal with the Pentagon with no cost ceiling to provide support services to the Army.27 The contract is known as the Logistics Civil Augmentation Program (LOGCAP). This contract is a "cost-plus-award-fee, indefinite delivery/indefinite-quantity service," which means that the federal government has an open-ended mandate and budget to send Kellogg, Brown and Root anywhere in the world to run humanitarian or military operations for profit.28

Dick Cheney basically wrote a blank check and said "do whatever you want with it, we don't care" on this one-

Okay - how about this?( same source)

February: The Pentagon reports that Halliburton Company would repay the government for overcharges estimated at $27.4 million for meals served to American troops at five military bases in Iraq and Kuwait last year. In one military camp in July 2003, KBR billed the government for an average 42,000 meals a day but served only 14,000 meals. Pentagon auditors found the overcharges during a routine audit of Halliburton.

March: As of March 1, 2004, KBR is awarded reconstruction work in Iraq and Afghanistan worth at least $3.9 billion.


My question is simple

"When found to have such massive fraud, as Haliburton/KBR is into the billions now- why do we continue to allow them to work for the US goverment, and instead, fire them, and go looking for someone to do the job instead? "

Actually this type of contract is quite common for a very simple reason the “government” has no clue exactly “how many” or “how much” of a product or service they want. And far from being a “giveaway” the IDIQ contract is one that guarantees nothing and still gets your best price. Thus they come to you and say how much for (your product) and by the way we cannot guarantee we will buy any minimum quantity – and by the way you must have the lowest price to win and the contract is published in the CBD (Commerce Business Daily) which allows anyone to bid it.

http://cbdnet.gpo.gov/


Obviously if this company over billed they should be whacked. But can we get past blaming Cheney for everything??

And how “massive” is this fraud. Is it 27.4 million out of 3.9 BILLION. If so do the math – not massive at all. Where are the “billions” you speak of and what % is it of the total contracts?

Um, gee, "only" 27.4 million? Chump change is it?

But, of course, that is not all the money- not even close.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/17/...ain636644.shtml
Documents obtained by CBS News show an auditor repeatedly flagged improper fees for soldiers'

laundry. At one site, taxpayers reportedly paid $100 for each 15-pound load of wash - $1 million a month in overcharges.

Just run down the list here- pick and choose which one is the most
http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/

And 43 cases of fraud charged by Australia etc

Ya, it is rampant, it is pervasive, it is daily.

Why do we keep those crooks again?

CruisingRam,

I agree with nearly everything you said in your opening post, perhaps I can shed light on the subject of why at least one of the companies you listed gets no-bid contracts and stays on the governments list of contractors despite their transgressions.

Halliburton is an energy/infrastructure company. As things stand today there are things that need to be done in Iraq and around the world that only Haliburton as a company actually has the capacity, patents, and management to do.

This situation doesn't make me happy either, I just thought that might explain a little.

JL- that is that the same argument when you wish to, oh, privatize stuff>

The minute Haliburton get's fired- suddenly, out of thin air, I bet there are at lest 10 corps that can do that job, and better- it is called "capitalism" and "competition"- no one is allowed to even compete with Haliburton, no one is allowed to even bid on thier "no bid contracts"

Very, very, fascist thing to do you know, and one of the best arguments for the growth of fascism in America.

CruisingRam,

I think you've got me all wrong here. I didn't say I liked it. You know for a fact I'm a strong believer in capitalism and competition.

I was only stating that Halliburton recieved no bid contracts because the services and infrastructure they provide are things that only they can do as a company. Other companies don't get to bid, because no one else can do what they do. How do you solve that problem? Not hiring Halliburton doesn't mean that suddenly 10 companies will learn how to do what they do over night. Try fixing that problem without using the government to regulate them, another capitalist issue.

It's a mess, I agree. I would like to see it solved as well.

And lets not play like this is a Dems V Reps thing either. All of the senate is awash with terrible bribery and legalized racketeering. Even Dianne Fienstien was forced to step down from her role as chairman of the Military Construction Appropriations Subcommittee lest the American people find out that through her husband she's been war profiteering.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=54932

Do you realize the severity of that article? Do you realize what it means that no major news broadcaster or publisher has written about it? There is a lot wrong in this country right now.That's a hugely criminal act against every citizen of the US and our soldiers. But who cares? Who will watch out for Americans anymore? Not the other politicians. No, no. Everyone is busy lining each other's pockets.

Ted- let me get this straight- are you saying Haliburton has not been over charging, profiteering, and generally raping the tax payers ever day?

JL- no one was allowed to even try. That is a conveniant excuse "no one else can do it"- how will you know if no one is allowed to try?

I completely agree, CR. I've read the exact same argument as presented by JL before. However, I don't buy it: just like you. If there is no opportunity provided for a competing company to actually, like...um..., compete, then there will always be just one company to do the job. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy -- otherwise known as a monopoly.

Furthermore, I wouldn't call the behavior of awarding no-bid contracts to one provider as fascist -- it's more like communist.

IF it were the unions that controlled Haliburton- I would agree. That would be communism- when the "workers" make the decsions. Fascism has been an over used word- but, using Oskar Schindler as an example- it is the managers that make the decisions with the paramount leader. Captains of industry.

No because they (or subs) have made errors and will pay. Are you saying its OK for Diane F to head the Committee that gives billions in contracts to her husbands companies??? She should be fired for this gross breach of ethics . Instead all she does is quietly quit and the press dutifully ignores it. Now imagine it was a Republican Senator – tell me you would not want his head CR



This is the case for much of what they do – the alternative company would have been Schlumberger – a nice French company. I will take Halliburton any day.

Really?

So what is so wrong with capitalism Ted- you know, free and open competition- we will never really know, we will only suppose, that Haliburton is the only one- because no one else was even given the chance- and who's word do we have to take as this being the ever-so-neccesary case? Haliburton's or Cheney's?

If you really believe Haliburton is just an upright company that is being picked on- well, I don't think anything, even them admitting on TV right after sacrificing a child publically, would convince you that they are as crooked as they obviously are.

In fact, I don't think anyone in the country believes that they are a good corporate citizen, EXCEPT possibly you

We have had the discussion. “Sole source” contracts are let all the time by government and we have discussed it above – go read it again please.

AND look at the Diane Feinstein story which you conveniently fail to address. How many “no competition” contracts did she allow to go to her husbands companies??? Does anyone know??? So lets keep babbling about a few million at Halliburton (which they will pay back) and slide over the billions in dirty deals of ol Diane.

Makes perfect sense.

The debate question deals specifically with companies found to be fraudulent with taxpayer funds and not necessarily sole-contract companies. Do you believe that companies, found to have committed fraudulent acts, should continue to receive taxpayer funds? Do you believe that competition is part of the checks and balances in a free market system designed to reduce the likelihood of fraud? Do you believe the threat of consequences, such as losing the contract to a competitor, acts as a check against fraudulent behavior? If not, doesn't that make you a communist or, perhaps by CR's definition, a fascist?


If the company has committed fraud, then it should not receive taxpayer funds.

Companies found guilty of fraud are banned from bidding on future contracts (usually for 1-5 years) and yes I think that is a good thing as is competition. Most government contracts are bid competitively although the number on competitors varies with the difficulty of the task. As on the other thread the number of people bidding for the JSF (Joint Strike Fighter) were small compared to say the people bidding for other contracts for more standard goods and services.




What Diane did is unethical and maybe illegal. The fact that she seems to be getting away with it is so ludicrous that it is shocking. Needless to say if you are bidding on contracts worth billion it helps if your wife is on the committee that is selecting the winner. Even if all she does is help with info it is a travesty. Needless to say we may never know and the “pass” she is getting form the media is disgusting.

We will never know how many billions in contracts sh “steered” to her husbands companies.

The point I was trying to make though is that competition helps to curb fraud from occurring to begin with. Banning future contracts is simply not good enough. Dealing with the contract(s) involving fraudulent behavior ought to be re-bid competitively (with the exclusion of the original contract holder).


If this is in fact a principle you are advocating here, then I agree. If there is any taint of nepotism or cronyism in a government contract, then it ought to be closely watched. This is why Halliburton sets off red flags. In particular, Halliburton has committed fraud AND has cronyistic connections (Cheney). Surely, you would agree that this is a problem, correct? I don't know much about Feinstein's husband's company, but as far as I know, it hasn't committed fraud. Still, close monitoring is definitely in order.

Ted, it's off topic to delve into Feinstein's ethics or lack thereof. And it's disingenuous of you to claim that she is "getting away" with something. It didn't take me long to find out there were investigations after an alternative news outlet (ironic, eh?) broke the story. Maybe you should start a topic about it?

Besides, I lost respect for Dianne Feinstein when she caved to Bush in voting for the war and again for his “surge”. She is more of a "Republicrat" than a Democrat.

Ted, however, does epitomize the "republicans can do no wrong" type of blind loyalty that DID get Republicans booted from power, so let's just hope there are enough folks in the 'pub party that agree that way- guarunteed to torque enough folks off to make sure dems are in complete power again for a nice, peaceful "golded age" of this country again

Really- if anyone REALLY wanted an investigation and the major playas thrown in jail- we would just have to say "Haliburton- they love democrats" and Ted would suddenly find tons and tons of evidence about them- and how he really hated them all along, and how he knew how crooked he was.

I really didn't think someone would be silly enough to actually believe that Haliburton is any kind of decent corporate citizen, but hey, we have proof right here on this page!

Are we talking of defense contractors or not DG??? Diane gave contracts to her husbands companies – DEFENCE CONTRACTS – in fact they are involved in the construction – and therefore part of the scandal and waste YOU have posted. But of course when we find out a cherished lefty liberal idiot from SF is right in the middle of it we drop it???? Give me a break. This is classic war profiteering and Dian’s husbands companies are right in the middle of it – and as you should know it is totally unethical for her to be making decisions (and taking trips for god sake) that relate to government contracts when a relative is involved.

this IS the topic.


And where did the “investigations” go? Give us an update on this dirty deal or should we just stick with stupid Halliburton nonsense???