Fair point. And, as you noted, at least Imus & Co didn't get anyone killed or ruin their lives and careers, à la Sharpton.

I do agree that Donald Trump, Al Sharpton, Rosie O'Donell, Howard Stern, Jesse Jackson, and company are just a racist as Don Imus. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

It's time that we do hold people that in the course of their jobs say racist statments accountable. If the average person would be fired for saying things, then entertainers should be held to that standard. Otherwise it is not a standard, but exceptions for those 'lucky few'.

And yes it is also time to recognize that there are racists that are black, latino, white, asian, whatever. I have heard so many times 'I can't be a racist, because I'm [fill in your ethnicity of choice]' well you can be and many are.

I'll just let this gentleman do the talking--from the Kansas City Star:



Edited to conform cited article in accordance with forum Rules. Any requests to discuss moderation of needs to be done via PM or in Comments and Suggestions.

I'll get back to you ConservPat and droop224 , but first...



Soooo....by that skewed "logic" we can grant Hitler and Goebbels a pass for their hate filled rants against Jews and other non-Aryans because while they were racist, they were just words, right? Does this mean in the future, you will be ignoring the "just words" of Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Kanye West, John Murtha, Keith Olbermann, Bill Clinton, Cindy Sheehan and every other non-Republican, non-liberal who you disagree with, lord helmet?

And if words don't matter, why should yours be taken seriously?



So only the winners count in this world, eh?

The Rutgers women's basketball team was the first athletic program at the school to compete for a national championship at any level since the fencing team tried in the 1940's. There is no "failure" in losing to a perennial basketball powerhouse like Pat Summit's Lady Vols of Tennessee. These women are not playing for fat shoe contract endorsements or million dollar paydays in the NBA after one season in college. They play for the love of the game and true school spirit, two things that get lost in the world of big buck college athletics. They are the true "student-athletes" of college sports.

A sincere apology and a show of decency from Imus for bringing scorn and ridicule upon women who did nothing to deserve it should suffice. If he wants to write a fat check to the school for his supreme idiocy and to soothe his conscience---if he has one---I'm sure they would accept it.




And from that poster here at AD, here is what that sentence is in response to:



I know you haven't expended much intellectual energy in this thread so far, DaytonRocker but even for you, that's a remarkably lazy job of taking quotes out of context.

If you're trying to make me out as a racist, you're going to have to try a lot harder than this.




That would be a lot easier to accept if this wasn't the fourth or fifth time you've posted in this thread to say it's all a waste of time. Because something isn't important to you doesn't make it the way it is for everyone else that isn't you.

"The average American" (whomever that is) doesn't feel comfortable with racist crap being spewed over the radio airwaves either.

Oh, and Quick, while I don't entirely disagree with Jason Whitlock, taking the focus off of the remarks of Don Imus and his lambasting the Rutgers women's basketball team to go off on irrelevant tangents about rap music or prison rates or White men being guilty for being White is all diversionary smoke n' mirrors. It ducks the central issue of the racism and sexism of Imus and company's statements. Trying to turn it into a giant Christmas tree where everyone can hang their pet peeves and gripes is a pointless distraction.

I’ll pass on Michelle “In Defense of Interment” Malkin’s backdoor Imus defense. Her observation doesn’t exist in a vacuum:


And while I don’t disagree with this blogger that “If Black America is really concerned about the image (and the honor) of Black women then they shouldn’t start with Don Imus”, I don’t understand why posters feel the need to “level the playing field” by shifting focus on the black entertainment industry. If a rapper’s “nappy haired hos” lyrics is sexist and racist, then so is Imus’s comment. Imus’s comment isn’t any less sexist/racist because the music industry caters to the LCD. If Imus is ultimately fired and becomes the entertainment industry’s reform icon he can take some solace in the fact that reform may not have been possible without his show.

P.S. A few more Imus comments.

I have been reading this thread for a few days and frankly this entire story is a joke. And a poor one at that.

The gist of Imus' joke was that the girls from Rutgers were ugly and the other girls were cute. That's a pretty weak joke.

The best part of this joke is having one idiot, Imus, attempt to apologize to another idiot, Al Sharpton. Funnier still is one of the few people with less listeners than Imus is Al Sharpton. And the cherry on the cream has got to be Jesse "Hymie Town" Jackson having the audacity to weigh in on this topic.

Here are three people marginalized to the point of scorn talking about the only topic any of them really have any useful knowledge on - Racism.

The three of them ought to go on a Pay-Per-View and talk about how racism has furthered their careers.

No ill will towards the OP (NightTimer) but this is a thread about nothing on a topic barely worth talking about. However, it is in the news and you can't go 5 feet without someone asking your opinion on it...

Why stop at the "gist"?

I mean we have his exact words do we not?
Your synopsis simply serves to sidestep the real issue. It no wonder you see no importance. The man didn't call anyone ugly

He called them nappy-headed ho's

I defy you to make that a non-issue.

I'm sorry, but I must have missed the indictment from the grand jury: who did Al Sharpton get killed?



I would submit BaphometsAdvocate that if people are posting on this thread about it and you can't go five feet without someone asking your opinion on it, then it is obviously worth talking and posting about. An example of roaring racism and sexism on full display IS worth the time and effort being spent on it.

In all due time the focus will return to the never-ending war in Iraq, Bush vs the Democrats and will the universe collapse into a black hole if Sanjaya Malakar wins American Idol?

Well if we're going to go that route then you're really offended at Spike Lee. I stopped at the gist because when you distill this joke to its final form it's Rutgers is ugly Tennessee is cute - I wonder if Tennessee even wanted to win


Finally! Something important!

A lot has been made of the term “nappy” in Imus’ comments as not being racist, only descriptive. While there may be some truth to that, it certainly isn’t even close to the whole truth. One source put “nappy’ on the same insult level as “pickaninny”.

The term has a derogatory intent – that natural, tightly curled hair is somehow inferior to straight hair. I think it’s healthy that the trend of straightening, lightening and otherwise trying to make black hair conform to a Eurocentric standard of beauty may be coming to an end, as natural hairstyles once again are gaining ground. But I seriously doubt Imus considered the social and cultural history of black women’s hairstyles; he merely wanted to insult a group of African-American athletes, and used the meanest, basest, most racially charged thing he could say without tossing out the N word.

And for the record, I may be white, but I have the curliest darned hair, and have fought it for years. I finally gave up and let my kinky, curly freak flag fly free and natural (well, except for color to keep the gray at bay).

Al Sharpton--Tawana Brawley and the Duke Lacrosse Team. Need I say more? No, he did not get someone killed but he lies through his teeth and has worked to ruin the lives of the 3 Duke students, against whom all charges have now been dropped and as to which all DNA evidence was negative.

Imus should have watched his tongue, no question, as we are dealing with college kids, not pros, but if Dave Chappelle can say what he does about whites, Imus should be given a pass. Sharpton should never have access to mass media again and he should suffer severely from his role in the Brawley and Duke matters--he is a liar and slanderer of the first order.

I have resisted posting in this thread seeing the circus that it really turns into when issues of racial sensitivty are involved. There are no easy answers because it is personal, it deals with factors that our beyond our control. Any attempt to make sense of the issue is futile as it will inevitably lead into a grander and more over-arching debate about culture, individuals, responsibility, exc...

Were Imus' comments racist? I could see how they would be interpreted that way. They were certainly not the best form and I wouldn't condone someone using such language to describe a group of people. However, is Imus himself a racist? I don't think such conclusions can be made about the man from this event alone. As has been pointed out already, the comment was in the context of comparing the Tennessee team to the Rutgers team. So while the comments appear more sexist than racist, racial tension can be discerned through the idea that some black women look cute because they look a certain way and the Rutgers team is ugly because they look a certain way.

I will freely admit that I listen to hip-hop and r&b on a regular basis (little more partial to r&b). I stay up to speed on the latest music and enjoy the beats and yes, the lyrics. This is because people have to be able to seperate reality from fantasy. What rappers talk about today is kind of a utopian way of looking at things (money, girls, cars, exc...). It has little semblance of what is real and thus is pushed aside as purely entertainment. Its fun. Thats what entertainment is all about. Imus is an entertainer (a comedian) who made a joke that was a swing and a miss. Thats how i see it. I have seen plenty of standup comedians (black, white, latino, jewish, exc...) who comment on race and say things much more potent than what Imus said and they are allowed to do so. Perhaps it wasn't so much that Imus made a racist comment but that he made a bad joke. If his joke was funny, maybe people wouldn't care so much about it.

I couldn't care less about whether Imus is fired or not. But what I do care about is a climate of political correctness that makes certain statements and certain ideas off limits. Yes it's insulting to be called ugly, but he wasnt saying they were ugly because they were black. He was saying they were ugly because of their appearance. Furthermore, I would find it hard to believe if "ho's" was a word that is frequent in Imus' vocabulary. He must have heard it from somewhere which goes right back to the rap culture that has been put on such a high pedastal that it wont be coming down any time soon without help from the inside. Some rappers, such as Nas' recent album, have tried to address the non-artistic nature of today's rap culture but really hasn't made any progress as of yet.

In the end, there are more important problems and more pressing issues than the mispeak of a grumpy old man on the radio.

Daffy, I know you have a link, so it is not you just speaking, but listen to me on this... Nappy IS NOT akin to the N-word or Pickaninny (whatever that is).

And I doubt anyone touches this argument, but again. If Imus was using nappy to just talk about Black women... he would not have used the term on one team and not the other, since they were BOTH predominately Black. Why would he exclude one group of Black girls from being "nappy-headed"??? I have searched for this answer, and have yet to have anyone take up the challenge of answering it.

Like I said nappy has to do with uncombed hair, typically Black type hair. Turnea admits that nappy headed in and of itself isn't a racist comment. Nighttimer avoided the question by saying that he didn't have his finger on the pulse of Black people... but chances are he also grew up hearing other Black people who didn't have their hair combed as nappy.



you say this, then you say



If it is curly it is curly, if it is kinky you should comb it It's a joke. Point is... are you being racist by calling the straighter hair of white people as "Kinky" Why/ why not??

Let me do like one of those english tests

Kinky is to White as Nappy is to Black


edited to add

i thought about this last statement. and I just didn't like the way it sounded. I've seen whte peopel with some real matted, nappy hair, and I know plenty of Black people, like my daughter, whose hair would be better described as kinky.

In general blacks hair is thick and coarser, but it is not a rule, and to make this a simple Black/White issues is a little narrow-sighted in my veiw.

The people that you mentioned would have to be discussed on their own individual merits, but this is not the the thread for that. None of those examples have any relevance to this whatsoever. By dragging in those cases , we are marginalizing what Don Imus said and effectively down playing what was stated.

F and D- yes, situation is very, very important. In the right setting, you can bag on the holocaust, blacks, whites, anyone- there is no limit, really, of what you can do, if it is done in the right setting.

We have seen the word "nigger" typed here, as I just did, as part of a discussion on racial slurs- am I calling anyone a "nigger"- no, I am discussing the definition, connotation and impact on society- and, no one would call anyone a racist for the mere fact that you typed it out, as you discuss the word- NOW- if you were to say _____ IS a nigger"- then, you have a completely different out look as far as the poster that makes this comment- correct?

We have all typed "nappy headed hoes" on this page, including NT and Turnea- as it is the subject of debate- so therefore, as we discuss it's definition, it is a relatively benign word when used in this form- BUT if you turn around and call soneone "nappy headed hoe" on this board- makes a huge difference, see?

Humor is a very ,very free form of expression, you can go all over the map- it is HOW you communicate that either offends or exposes your racism.

I have stated the word "nigger" in my act-BUT ONLY in the terms of debating the power of the word on stage- something like "I have never said the word nigger in anger, and I have never understood why some folks find this word acceptable in casual conversation"-

once again- I have used the word- no offense would be taken- how could it?

Now- If I, as a white man, jumped up, in front of a black audience, and said "Hey, how all you niggas doin'?"

Well, I would probably get my butt kicked, at the least!

Also- it is hard to believe one is insulting one's own race when using these words- that is why there is some acceptance (though,that seems to be changing very quickly outside american black pop-culture, as both NT and I pointed out) - of the word "nigger" to describe oneself-

this is what Richard Pryor hoped to do, use the word in such a manne, that it loses it's power as the ultimate insult of the land.

You are going to find it very hard to find reasonable black poeple that DON'T describe this as a racial slur when used like Don Imus used it

I mean, for gawds sake- he *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** off Al Roker

has ANYONE seen Al Roker as an Al Sharpton clone here or something?

I am sure that there are white folks out there saying "gee, that doesn't seem so bad"- well, it really isn't a racial slur that effects whites the same- so we really don't "feel" it at all.

Listen I'm sure you're a great Stand Up Comedian and all but I've probably never heard of you. However, as bad as Don Imus is I know who he is...

So why is OK for you to "bag" on people in the name of comedy and not Don Imus?

Is it the radio waves thing?

I submit that you know exactly what I'm talking about and respectfully will not derail this thread, which is about one boneheaded shock jock, not Mr. Sharpton's hypocrisy, racism and opportunism.

whuuuuu??? Did you bother to read either of the articles I posted links to? It describes the whole hair culture better than I can.

As for my hair, it is curly/kinky, depending on the weather. The difference between curly and kinky, as nearly any hairdresser worth their scissors will tell you is in the tightness of the curl. Kinky isn't a derogatory term - where in the world would you get that idea?

As for the "comb it" business, I can't comb it, I use a hair pick. But it tends to do what it wants to do anyway - frizz, fall flat, have perfect corkscrew curls, and I decided at some point to quit trying to straighten, style and force it into something it wasn't.

I am no star, and am merely a bit player, never pretended to be anything but- however, I get my laughs, I get my paycheck,and have only had one politician angry at me (because I made a joke about her)

Don Imus' length of time in this biz, the fact that he has done this before, he really, really knows the difference, far more than some on this board it seems, between racialy tinged humor and racist comments.

No less than 3 morning shows this week alone have dealt with this topic this week, we have 2 comedy clubs, and 4 comedans in town right now- and, of course, this is a hot topic.

Now- these comics have never been accused of being anything NEAR "politically correct"- jokes like, "Hey, I read Ann Frank's diary, you didn't, I know what thing she wrote was- "shhhh". Horrible when typed out here, no context, no buildup, just a very, very tasteless "joke".

But- when you take the entire conversation, impossible for me to quote due to length, and hey- it is not my act anyway- and it was funny. Lot's of calls dealing with this subject.

I have also seen comedians fired on the spot aftr leaving stage- they were offensive, and even worse NOT funy!

What I am saying is this- it IS so very, very sitational. There is no way you are going to convince anyone that radio today is the very modicum of tact and civility, and that the self censorship is horribly oppressive

BUT- there are reasonable places the line can be drawn, and is quite clear to anyone that works in this field- show up on a DJ morning show, and they will brief YOU on what WILL not be said on thier station.

Are you saying DOESN"T know where that line is drawn? Well, he better learn it fast- because there is a whole FCC thing that will turn his show un-profitable very, very quickly if he is THAT incompatent.

Dropping the "F-bomb" on air would and does have less impact than the words he used- ponder that for a minute- you are being vulgar, but at least you ain't being a racst!

Question for Clarification...


Can a comment touch upon race, be offensive in nature, and not be racist.

What if that is the divide here??

Yes, "nappy headed" deals predominately with Blacks. Yes, the comment made in general was offensive.

I think 99% of us could agree to that.

Now, are offensives comments with racial underpinnings, by default, racist???

That is a very, very relevent question droop

To answer that- you have to ask the question "what is the nature of any insult"

For an insult to work, it has to be accepted as one by the person it is being hurled at.

If I am called a "nappy headed ho"- it is kinda silly- me being a dirty blond curly haired middle aged white guy from Alaska-

I would probably look around to see who you are talking too- because it sure doesn't apply to me.

So it is the intended victims, NOT the invective hurler- that determines the impact of the insult.

That is even why nearly lilly white guys like Al Roker even take offense.

BTW- that was my gag on the radio this am.

I kept saying "man, Al Roker is (,man that profanity filter is a real prude- this word is legal on the air) you know you pretty much have to be wearing a bed sheet and burning a cross on Al Roker's front lawn for him to be ,(,man that profanity filter is a real prude- this word is legal on the air) right? In fact- that SHOULD BE the determine-er- Al sharpton can go sit on his bed post and spin, but when Al Roker is(,man that profanity filter is a real prude- this word is legal on the air) man, whee is the KKK rally? is it on Al's front lawn, starring Don Imus? You have to F-up pretty bad to get Al Roker speaking against ya man!"

Daffygrl


Yes i read your link, which is why I stated:



It describes the culture better than you can, agreed, but it doesn't describe it bettewr than I can. I am a Black man, born to Black parents, raised in Black neighborhoods, went to Black elemetary, middle, and High Schools.

People are jumping on a band wagon here. Even it that article you posted it states



and



And another thin. One of the things I see is that this article starts out by making "nappy headed" a Black woman thing. Nappy applies to men just as much as women.... unless they are like me.... silky smooth and bald.

Edited to add:




I have. it is obvious that Imus is calling one team in the looks department tore up. That is the joke he is making. Nappy headed, definaately has racial underpinnings. but as some one else was saying he didn't use nappy headed to distinguish race, he used nappy headed to distinguish looks.



Agreed



O.K. so if i said an insult about a bunch of swedish swimsuit models looking like lobsters because they tanned to long... which obviously has racial underpinning due to the lack of melon in White skin pimatation... that would be a racist comment.

I doubt white swimsuit models would find it cool to be told they look like lobsters...

Hey even better, "dem some lobster lookin' ho's"

In your opinion would that be racist. I'm not talking about all whites, but white in general are the ones that come out looking like cooked crabs when they are in the Sun too long.



WE can all see the impact of the insult is huge, my question is why do you see it as racist. Is it just because it is an insult that does touch upon race.

Droop224, OK, I defer to you on the "nappy" definition. As for it applying to men, too; well, of course. It's just that men don't have the obsession with hair that women (of all races) do...unless, of course, it's the loss of it.

Maybe it boils down to this - it's OK to insult yourself; i.e. self-deprecating humor, but not to hear the same insult from someone else. If I say I'm a fat old broad in conversation that's one thing, but if someone I didn't know out of nowhere called me a fat old broad, I'd probably be offended.

There is (was?) a music group called Nappy Roots, and a hair salon in one of those articles was called Nappy Hair Affair. I think this is an example of my rationale above.

But Daffygrl, why would a owner name their store an insulting name? Why would a music group become humorous with their name?

Nappy can be an insult, nappy could be "what is"

If a Black person doesn't comb their har it gets nappy. That is the term that I am sure many Black grew up with. Now just like anything, uncombed hair relates to ones hygeine. And talking about ones hygeine can most definately be insulting.

Let take hair out and replace teeth.

Some one could be insulting and say your teeth are so yellow you spit butter. But at the same time... if you don't brush your teeth, your teeth actually get yellow.


That is why the term "nappy-headed" is insulting. Because it is insulting ones upkeep of themselves, their hygeine, not because Blacks are taught some slave owner called our ancestors nappy.

The only difference is the insult applies to Blacks in particular. But it is still a insult about hygeine, not race. Which is why I can see why people are calling it racist.

Nine pages now and I still don't know if 'nappy headed' is racist or not, though now at least I know what it means. Given what was said and why and all the posts in between, I find Droop's take to be the most accurate, or at least closest to my own understanding of it.

Hows that for the pot calling the kettle black!? (no racial insult intended) How many times have you posted to tell me you didn't care? Looks like that double standard you've got going is still in full effect.



I'm glad you posted this Lesly. I was beginning to wonder if I was losing my perspective. This blogger makes the point I was trying to earlier.





Cruising Ram

I've been wondering about that ever since you wrote it earlier. Just how exactly was that supposed to work? Was Pryor some kind of pioneer of language, or was he merely adopting a commonly used term into his routine? I don't know, which is why I'm asking, but didn't black Americans also refer to each other as niggers before Pryor came along? Wasn't he just speaking as those around him already did?

For if he was just emulating other 'street smart people', then it seems to me that his justification is bogus. The reason why I think that is because I can't see any other reason why black people would perpetuate that word unless it was for a purpose and the only two purposes I can think of has having any great common following are; first, to insult other people. Second, to perpetuate the status quo of black Americans being socially inferior to white Americans.

By which I'm wondering if perhaps the whole thing isn't either deliberate or like some giant case of Stockholm syndrome. Because why would black Americans continue to refer to themselves as 'niggers' unless it was to perpetually remind themselves of the racial divide?

I just can't see any other reason for it. It reminds me of when the nazi's invaded Denmark and our king wore a star of David. It served as a means of petrifying the status quo so no one would ever fail to understand what the situation was.

I mentioned Ice Cube earlier because he was my favourite rapper (still is I guess) when I used to listen to rap. His lyrics didn't really bother me much because I simply didn't know most of the references then as I do now (thank you Wikipedia), and as Leder pointed out, those refernces I did understand were more like a cartoon reality that anything I'd ever encountered myself. When he rapped about cutting off white people's heads, I just shrugged. Back then, the Serbs were murdering thousands of Bosnians and it simply didn't register on my conscience that the man I was listening to rap was calling for my death. To some degree, it still doesn't. I'm not American.

One thing I did understand about Ice Cube and those like him though, was that they used the word 'nigger' to make a point, and that point had to do with white racism. Chuck D once made a rap about all this, it was called 'No' and I bought that album because I liked that track... but it didn't seem to make any impact. Chuck D was the beginning and end of rap for me. As long as it had some one like that in it, I could relate. With his passing from the scene, I gradually lost interest.... I'm wandering again... My point with Ice Cube's use of that word was to give you an example of why black Americans might choose to perpetuate a racist word about themselves, because it gives them a power over white Americans by virtue of guilt.

Reading this topic, and a few others like it, I gather that there is an under current of racial perception in the USA, especially regarding what is and what isnøt racist. I've seen stats that indicate the vast majority of racial assaults in the US are carried out by blacks against whites (Carlitoswhey posted a similar link), and I don't understand why that, and the preponderence of racial and sexual slurs in mainstream black American music don't matter. As you said yourself, this stuff probably doesn't carry the impact on me as it does for an Amerian and maybe thats why I don't get it. The most logical explanations as to why black racism don't seem to matter are because it is not deemed to be as significant as white racism, and because white Americans look past black racism because they feel guilty.

In all, it seems to me that Pryor's stated aim in using that word was either a lie, or incredibly naive. Given his character, I'd say the former for he doesn't strike me as having been stupid enough to be that naive.

Why is it such a big deal when a person uses a word that an entire industry is growing fat upon? Even if it was racist, which I'm not sure it was, why does this racism matter when so much racism carried out by black Americans doesn't seem to matter at all?

Its simply unfair, and history doesn't justify unfairness.


edited to reply to Lesly

Bingo Moif you hit the nail on the head, it's such a huge double standard in the US it doesn't make any sense to me. I sometimes have heard black people tell me that "I don't know how it is" to grow up in a "white mans world" and I just look back at them and wonder why they think they know me when they haven't even really met me. I can call some losers that rob someone for crack niggers and be called a racist, but Chris Rock can call those same people niggers and somehow he's just telling it like it is. I wonder if any black person that utters the words Cracker, Honkey, or White Trash if they are considered racist. Say some very rich black person who associates with white people everyday and has a lot of white friends went through some run down trailer park and some crack head came up to him that was white and asked him for some money and he later reffered to them as "white trash" I guess that would mean he's a racist to.

The racist card is played way to much in the US and it's mainly played the most by people that are really racist because they are so self conscious about skin color and they relate almost every comment that could refer to skin color as a racist comment... it's they themselves that see the world in black and white not the other way around.

If you think nappy headed ho is racist you haven't seen nothing yet, you wanna see some real racism in the US try being white and walk through the middle of a black ghetto.

This witch hunt could not have been possible without District Attorney Mike Nifong. Election politics + tough on crime scorecard = helpful media blitz.


Offensive comments with racial underpinnings in certain settings are racist, self-deprecating, or both. Take your pick, Droop. You have a problem with racial comments in a racist context, but not in the self-deprecating context; especially when your gender isn’t the target of insults.

I know it’s been said a hundred times. Imus’s show, popular in the Beltway, is an entertainment show. Elected public officials making appearances on an entertainment show to discuss public policy is as appropriate as our WSYX Channel 6 making “news” out of eliminated American Idol contestants. The infotainment business needs to unglue itself. It’s a pipe dream, I know. If, somehow, that ungluing spells the end of rap culture later down the road I’ll buy a bottle of Visine and squeeze a few drops on my cheeks for the industry’s inconsolable fans.

Chances are, droop224, you can speak with great clarity and authority about what you know, but you don't know jack about me or how I grew up or what I did or did not hear.

What I know is you are still parsing the offensive statement to fit the formula you are advancing. I don't like all the hypothetical situations that have already been advanced by some of the other posters in this thread, but IF Don Imus had merely called the Black players of Rutgers "nappy-headed" he still would have caught heat for the remark. But he DIDN'T stop there.

"Nappy-headed" wasn't derisive enough for Imus. He had to add "ho's" to the phrase and that amped up the venom by tenfold.

My critical difference with you here is it doesn't matter if I found the remarks vile and you found them just a joke that fell flat. What I'm arguing is what he said in it's totality. You are trying to interpret "nappy-headed" as a non-racist term when used by Blacks and consequently, non-racist if ANYONE uses it.

But you can't separate the phrase as you are doing it. Accuracy and truth demand otherwise.



You might call your daughter "nappy-headed" if she was about to walk out the door with her uncombed. I have no idea what type of father you are, but I doubt that you would call her a "hoe" on top of it.



You can "submit" anything you like, Carlitoswhey, but to repeat: Stick to telling what YOU know. Don't try to tell me what I know.

By the way, as the topic starter of this thread I know exactly what it is about and if anyone tried to
"derail this thread" that would be YOU since you introduced this crap argument that Al Sharpton murdered someone. You want to follow a conspiracy theory? Start a thread.

If you have evidence Sharpton is complicit in somebody's death 12 years ago, give the Manhattan D.A. a call. Don't waste all that evidence on me.




I'm sorry, did you have anything related to the topic to add? Because the more you cry about me not caring the less I care.

And on a related front, MSNBC has kicked "Imus in the Morning" to the curb.

NEW YORK - MSNBC said Wednesday it will drop its simulcast of the “Imus in the Morning” radio program, responding to growing outrage over the radio host’s racial slur against the Rutgers women’s basketball team.

In a statement, NBC News announced "this decision comes as a result of an ongoing review process, which initially included the announcement of a suspension. It also takes into account many conversations with our own employees. What matters to us most is that the men and women of NBC Universal have confidence in the values we have set for this company. This is the only decision that makes that possible."

The network statement went on to say, "Once again, we apologize to the women of the Rutgers basketball team and to our viewers. We deeply regret the pain this incident has caused." link

To paraphrase Bernard "I was hired to do nigger jokes" McGuirk, MSNBC has decided to "do the right thing." Now the question becomes will CBS Radio follow suit?

Okay. I can appreciate that. But I guess I'm not understanding why this is so important to YOU. What does this man's comment really have to do with you or anything you care about in life? Does it somehow diminish your life? Are the eggshells we are walking on that fragile that one comment will shatter the very foundation of black esteem? That is where I am at a loss. I am not black so perhaps I cannot comprehend the emotions that are stirred.

People say things that are mean, cruel, insensitive, rude, and so forth, and often it stems from a deep-seated prejudism. Imus's comment falls into one such category. But you don't know what his true intent was. You only know how it made you (and others) feel. I'm not understanding why the huge public outcry. It seems disingenuous to me. It looks like an excuse to get angry and target someone with that anger.

If Don Imus had done more than just hurt feelings I would be in favor of hanging him out to dry. But he didn't. People say things and we decide to be offended or not. Plenty could be said about him that is derogatory and it has been said by Howard Stern over the years. In the end, we get back what we give in life. Nobody gets off scot-free. So why spend the energy creating so much hostility?

You have a very valid point. I have also lived in places not segregated per say. I also have people of different skin color then mine in my family. Again I think it comes down to the person in how they will react, if the Rutgers team takes offense to it, they should be able to I would think. Also, for what its worth, I have never in my life in experience or simply entertainment such as a film ever came across the word nappy to be used in a broad or dynamic context. This along with the other words in the phrase lead me to think its racist.

Now in the extent of race being used in the entertainment industry alone is actually quite staggering if you stop to pay attention to it. Some people in this debate point out that it waters down the issue in relation to imus, but on that note I think its a bit off to subscribe that imus needs to be burnt at the stake for what is really a common or not exotic occurrence in such an industry at large. I also feel that such strong desires to really ban such words in the context of entertainment need to be at themselves experience the height of scrutiny that imus is receiving, not on the note of letting someone off with being racist, or simply saying something racist, just that the material is rather subjective in some regards as this thread is pointing out and you really begin to deal with censorship really. If its left up to the private sector to deal with it I guess is one thing, but trying to draw government and the issue together for resolve is another, and I know you have not spoke about this, I just want to get my point out in it as much as possible being people read posts on this board a lot.

Well, a decision has been made.

Imus's has got his two week suspension from CBS, but his simulcast on MSNBC has been dropped. This could be because several sponsors have pulled out... American Express, General Motors... Proctor & Gamble actually suspended their sponsorship of all daytime programming on MSNBC.

A honest question deserves a honest answer. I don't know if this will make any sense to you doomed_planet, but here goes.

I don't think public discussion boards are really the appropriate venue for personal information but I'll say this: I have a 12-year old daughter and like most girls her age she has all the same issues about boys, school, her friends, and clothes.

And hair.

Sometimes she wears her hair in braids. Sometimes she gets a perm. Sometimes she wears it pulled back and sometimes long. Hair is very important to her and how she appears in the world.

Then along comes some overage cowboy wannabee sitting in his studio and pulling down millions of dollars in dough who cracks wise (or tries to) about a group of Black women who he doesn't think are very attractive.
He calls them "nappy-headed hoes" and it's a big laugh. Dumping on people who have done nothing to deserve it isn't funny, it's cowardly and gutless. The ladies of the Rutgers basketball team are not public figures. They're student athletes who are trying to get their degrees and play a little ball. That's all.

My daughter is also tall for her age. Even back in her pre-school class photo she was taller than any of the boys in the picture. This only adds to her self-confidence issues. When you stand out it's not always easy.

So, I really dislike Don Imus for going after Black women whom my daughter might one day be inspired by and might wish to emulate. There a lot of crocodile tears being shed for how unfairly and unjustly Imus is being treated in this whole affair, but that ignores whom the REAL victims are here.

Plus, as I said before, I'm a Black man who loves Black women and I don't think they should be demeaned by the scuzzy likes of Don Imus because they don't meet his standards of what makes a young lady "cute."

In the larger scheme of things, Don Imus is irrelevant to the esteem of Black women. I just don't see any reason why he should be allowed to even call it into question.



Good question, but you're asking the wrong person. I didn't start this. Neither did the Rutgers women's basketball team. Don Imus did.

I don't need an excuse to get angry. All I have to be is a conscious human being. Nor do I need to know what his true intent was. I know what he said it was, but this is not some rookie on the first day on the job. This guy has been doing radio for over 30 years. If he doesn't know how to tell a joke without being racist and sexist then he should have been put out to pasture a long time ago.

He should "man up" and take some personal responsibility for his hurtful, hateful words. What does "I'm a good man" mean anyway? Who's he trying to convince? Himself? If you have to say this is what you are, then you're probably not that thing.

All I'm going by is what Imus said this time and the pattern of behavior that preceded it. I don't care if he loves his wife, is kind to widows and orphans and his dog likes him. You and others have decided not to be offended by his remarks. I have decided otherwise. And neither Howard Stern nor 50 Cent or Michael Richards and their bad behaviors make it okay for Imus to dump on whomever he likes, whenever he likes.
Actions have consequences and words have meaning, despite what others may say. This time they came back to bite Imus--hard.

So I don't feel the least bit sorry for Imus. Why would I? Even if he loses his radio show too, he'll still never have to work hard another day in his life. Why feel sorry for a millionaire?

Well... you just avoided saying one way or another whether you grew hearing and saying the word "nappy" without being chastised by an adult.



Actually good point.... If everyone would read the transcripts Imus didn't add ho's to nappy headed... he added nappy headed to ho's. Some was said

"Dem some hardcord ho's." then Imus added "them some nappy headed ho's."

But NT it's time you see what I am doing. I am NOT debating whether the comments were offensive I am appealing for you to tell my why you think they are racist.

My critical difference with you here is it doesn't matter if I found the remarks vile and you found them just a joke that fell flat. What I'm arguing is what he said in it's totality. You are trying to interpret "nappy-headed" as a non-racist term when used by Blacks and consequently, non-racist if ANYONE uses it.

No nighttimer, I'll explain again. I am with you let's look at it in it;s totality. If someone uses nappy-headed in way to distinguish race, I WOULD call it racist. Regardless if the say ho/skank/slut or what ever else to follow the comment.

Example. (Though you hate hypotheticals.)

Imus: Wow "Rutgers played Tennessee last night."
Producer: "A bunch of sista's playing... where were all the white girls."
Imus: " Yeah a bunch of nappy-headed hoes running around shooting hoopes"


NT This I would say... racist comment. Why?? Because of the totality of the conversation. You can say "African American" in sentence and be racist to me. So you are misunderstanding my argument.

Imus used "nappyheaded" in the context of hygeine/looks/appearance... I think I pretty much proven that because you have yet to attack my arguments other than saying... you don't have to.



I separate it because the "ho's"part does not matter. Not just to me... to most people. How much commentary or controversy have you heard dealing with the "Hardcore Ho's" statement?? You probably have to relook at the transcripts to even know what I am talking about.

None... because women being called ho's wouldn't been a blip on the news.

On the other hand... he could have said Nappy headed skanks, nappy headtricks, nappy head B----es, nappy headed women, nappy headed chicks, nappy headed chicken heads, nappy headed sluts, nappy headed girls, nappy headed cluck clucks, nappy headed females...etc etc etc He would be receiving the same treatment.

The term "Ho" is so mainstream as a deragatory term toward women you can turn on HBO's entourageand hear it flung around. It has no racial connotations that compounds the use of nappy headed by Imus.

So by all means keep them together. "nappy headed hoes" is that somehow more rof a racial comment than "nappy headed girls" I don't think so... what about you??


Well, as I said before, her hair is a little closer to kinky. However I was just commenting to my wife that our son's head was starting to get nappy. But you're right, I wouldn't call her a ho, but if I her hair gets coarse and matted enough to be called nappy, then it's nappy.

There is a pretty simple reason why NT One is a deragatory term in and of itself, the other is merely a term that can be used in a deragatory way. Would you agree??

I don't have the mutant ability to look in a man's mind/heart/soul to tell what they mean when they say something. I can read or hear their words and decide whether they are meant as a joke or an insult.

Don Imus tried to tell a joke. It has been interpreted as a insult.

I don't buy your continued parsing of the phrase, "nappy-headed hoes" droop224. It doesn't play true to me and your explanation doesn't convince me. All that you have "proven" is you've given it a lot more thought than I have or care to.

This is not a game show where points are awarded to the contestant that best tears apart the other's viewpoint. I have given my reasons throughout this thread why I find Imus' remarks racist, sexist and offensive. If you don't find them plausible or credible, there's nothing I can do about it.



Says you.

If you don't believe the "hoes" part doesn't matter then I guess the sexism Black women face specifically and women in general does not matter to you either. The sexism your daughter and mine will one day have to face head on. I don't need any reminder about the "hardcore hoes" part of the conversation between Imus and boys. I'm the one who included the transcript when I started the thread.

Your casual dismissal of the "ho's" part of the quote does matter, because Black women don't just have to face racism because they are Black, but sexism as well because they are women. While it may not matter to you or "most people" (which usually means only the people you know) it matters quite a bit to some of the sisters out there:

His comments about the players' hair evoked the legacy of racism in America, as women of color historically have been compared unfavorably with the white ideals of beauty. The civil rights community has been inflamed, but Imus' comments were as sexist as they were racist.

"He put it all together, essentially calling them men and also calling them whores," said Linda Greene, a professor at the University of Wisconsin Law School and a founder of the Black Women in Sport Foundation. "It's an example of how gender stereotypes operate a specific way when it comes to black women."

This year marks the 35th anniversary of Title IX, which in part requires schools that receive federal funding to provide equal opportunities for men and women in sports. After 35 years, female athletes should be able to take the court, play their hardest and not risk commentary about how sexy they looked while competing.

For Temple University professor emeritus Tina Sloan Green, Imus' comments fuel a bigger fear.

"The attack is on their sexuality and femininity because there's a fear that women's sports will take funding and even advertising dollars away from men's sports," said Sloan Green, executive director and president of the Black Women in Sport Foundation. She's also the first black woman to be inducted into the National Lacrosse Hall of Fame. "By perpetuating the stereotype that these women aren't really women, it helps slow down the process of women getting involved in sports."

Though he has apologized -- Imus said he was just cracking a joke -- I haven't found one black woman who's laughing. Desiree Cooper

You think being called a "ho" doesn't matter? To who? To you because you're a man and there's no equivalent term? I guarantee you it matters a lot to a woman to call her something so vile. Would it matter to you if someone called a woman you love a "ho?"

You think the word "ho" has no sting because some TV show throws it around casually? Mainstreamed by WHO? Not by women. By men who enjoy degrading and objectifying women.

But one of the ladies of the team put it best.

"I want to ask him, 'Now that you've met me, am I a ho?'" said Rutgers center Kia Vaughn of the Bronx. "I achieved a lot and unless they've given 'ho' a whole new definition, that's not what I am."



No. I would not agree. Neither would Kia Vaughn.

I hate to beat this with a stick after ten long pages, but I can't help noticing that "sexist" doesn't seem to be a poll choice here.

So of all those outrageous affronts to women everywhere (especially women of color, apparently), what stands out about this person’s use of the word 'ho' as opposed to the legions of others who use the word frequently? Should they all be standing in the breadlines as well?

Let me join you in noticing that the affront here seems to be the word hoes since "nappy headed" seems to have been completely diffused. However, sexism doesn't quite get the hackles up as high as racism.

CR admits to using language that would be less than flattering quite often in his act (less so now) and yet takes great offense to similar and likely tamer language by Imus and co.

The fact of the matter is that in the realm of calling women hoes and blacks niggers an immediate pass is given to black males (mostly) but as soon as a white man steps out of line it is time to fire him. Tell you what, I can't stand Don Imus let's fire him, but let's also fire Jay-Z or Dr Dre or Khia or any number of black rappers - and as an added bonus they don't even have to be alive since Don Imus appears to have died about 5 years ago.

This pointlessly manufactured outrage may bring to light the racism of one moderately popular white male but completely dilutes and marginalizes other cases that will come. See also Duke Rape Case.

The failing to phrase the questions to include "racist AND sexist" is alas, my own sexism showing, Mrs. Pigpen. At the time I created the topic I was thinking in turn of how I was offended based on race, and not gender. A serious oversight in retrospect and I wish I been as inclusive as Imus was. As droop224 and others have pointed out, the "nappy-headed" part of the insult is a bit ambigious in it's racial connotations. There's no ambivalence about the "ho's" crack.

Yesterday, there was a retirement celebration for two reporters at a local bar and one person asked me, "In all fairness, why should Imus be fired for saying the same thing some rappers are getting rich on?" Though I have written in this thread that I don't believe the bad behavior of immature and socially deficient teenage boys with gold fronts on their teeth and chains hanging off their necks excuses an aging shock jock, if any good can come of this perhaps this is a opportunity disguised as a farce.

This could be the teachable moment where the African-American community decides that in all fairness and decency, it cannot criticize White men who shoot off their mouth and denigrate Black women, but fall deaf and silent when Black men do exactly the same thing.

Quick pointed out Jason Whitlock's criticism of misogynist rappers and their modern day minstrel acts and so too does John McWhorter and Rochelle Riley, that now is a perfect time to demand accountability from irresponsible rappers, their record company enablers and complacent Black people.

Riley said, The language and the feelings behind them have contributed to America's backslide to a time when women were considered inferior and black people were considered animals. Imus' apology was silly and inadequate. I don't want it. And I don't want an apology from Ludacris or 50 Cent or The Game. What I want is for them and others like them to stop.

Don Imus didn't do anything new last week. He just went too far. If we ignore it, as we've ignored the rising tide of hatred and sexism in rap, it will be at our own peril.

A few years ago Bill Maher's show Politically Incorrect was taken off the air in the days after 9/11 as he said something to the effect that our men and women were cowards (I don't remeber the exact quote).

I've never been a fan of Bill Mahr. Not by a long shot! But here is a guy that essentially lives by his wits and if he should happen to screw-up, it comes to the attention of the nation. Not only that, but his screw-up is recorded and can be re-lived over and over on the national stage.

I've never listed to Don Imus and I have no personal opinion of the man or his show. But it does occur to me that he, too, lives by his wits and will on occasion screw-up. Saying something insensitive is not concrete evidence that you are racist.

But it's probably pretty good evidence of being human.

Well there really isn't a debate on this is it?? I thought just about everyone agreed the comment was insulting, degrading, and offensive. So why are you even pondering this??



That's right NT, you've hit the nail on the head. I've given a lot more thought to this than you. You've argued with great vigor and passion, but what about logic??



Yes you can, explain why you believe he was being racist to one group while comparing them to another Black team



You are mischaracterizing my argument. So allow me to clarify. I'm sure being called "hoes" matters to individuals, I am saying that it doesn't matter when asking the question... 1. If the remarks made by Imus and his crew about the Rutgers women's basketball team were racist should he be fired?

Racist is the key word... NT when you hear the word "ho's", d you think women, or Black women. I've always seen it a a deratatory slander toward women.... not Black women, but all women.

The comment most talked about is "nappyheaded ho's"

nappy headed introduces the racial component. ho's introduces the gender component.

And since this is a debate in race issues category, and not Gender issues, compounded with the fact you ask, to paraphrase, is the comment racist, I thought it would be prudent to separate the components and isolate the one that deal with race.

So when i say the term "ho" doesn't matter, I am saying it really holds no weight in a debate asking was Imus remarks racist. If we were arguing from a gender issue stance, i would say nappy headed doesn't matter and that the term ho is what should be focused on.

Do you now understand what I mean by "it doesn't matter" now??



Again you are wrong. If I were to ask Kia Vaughn is nappy a deragatory statement in and of itself, I think she would agree with me that it isn't. Because our hair gets nappy if we don't brush it.


BA


If you want to debate the differences start a debate. I'd rather not look like we were on the same side as you platform into totally different issues.

No, "just about everyone" do not agree the comment was insulting, degrading and offensive. In this thread it has been made very clear that some believe it was just a joke that fell flat, there was no deliberate insult intended, the remarks pale in comparison to those made by some rappers, and that this is just part and parcel of what a shock jock does. There is no such thing as a "unanimous decision." Virtually everything is subject to debate. Especially so in matters of race and gender.



Whether or not I've argued with vigor, passion AND logic is purely subjective, droop224. All I can do is present my arguments as clearly and accurately as possible. If you believe the argument lacks logic, I'm not of the mind to try and convince you beyond any shadow of a doubt. I've explained at length why I felt the remarks of Imus were racist and sexist. If you don't like those explanations I don't have any others in the back left to show you. At some point the result isn't worth the effort and energy expended to achieve it and I think the law of diminishing returns has just about been reached in trying to present my reasons to your satisfaction.