I'm aware of the criticism of rap. I'm also aware that it isn't enough, and that far too many of those criticizing Imus have in fact defended various rap artists for saying the same things, or generally much worse. So, speaking of generalizations...perhaps start by stopping making any such generalizations about what I am or am not aware of?



I never said ALL rappers were bad. Again with your own generalizations. All I said is that some rappers frequently use language similar to what Imus did, and often far, far worse. Do you disagree with that statement? It doesn't seem like it. Perhaps if you stopped being such a broken record and started paying more attention to what people are saying you would find that you wouldn't need to repeat yourself so much.



Who is excusing Imus? I have made it perfectly clear that I am not. Frankly, I never liked the guy, and his being gone doesn't hurt me one bit. Yes, this could be an opportunity to demand some accountability from rap acts and record lables. In fact, it SHOULD be just that. That is what we are saying. Why are you then disagreeing with this? And who said we don't like rap music? I like a lot of rap. Even if I didn't, that is completely beside the point. The point is there are lots of people out there criticizing Imus and defending rappers saying the same things, or usually worse. THAT is a double standard, and that is what we are pointing out. Anyone arguing against that is then FOR a double standard, and should be aware of the implications of that.



Why then is it that this same standard should not be applied to rap artists (and everyone else)? Why is it so hard for the defenders of rap to get it that words have consequences? What rappers say can't be laughed off either, can it? Can't be dismissed as irrelevant? Can't be justified by Imus having said less, even. Proving yet again, "Don't hate the playa, hate the game." What rappers say can't be laughed off as a bad joke. Can't be dismissed as irrelevant. There is still free speech in this country, but there is no absolute right to free speech free of consequence, even for rappers. Particularly so when you're saying things that then get incorporated into the greater culture. In fact, for those complaining about what Imus said...what some rappers say can't be justified at all. Doing so while simultaneously complaining about Imus' comments is weak, its wimpy, and its whiny. AND it's a double standard, which is the very thing the black community would be against, I would think. Or are double standards now ok, and everyone has a free pass to treat one group differently than another? If so, please get the word out, and let's stop with all the equality nonsense and affirmative action programs. After all, double standards are now in, I guess.

That's twice now you've whined about the threads I haven't started on , Moif. Why is that so important to you? Does it make you happy when I start a thread because instead of being so obsessed about what I'm not commenting on, why don't YOU step up and get the party started if there's a particular kind of music you want to dance to.

If you want to crack Snoop Dogg's attitude to "nappy-headed ho's" I have four words of advice for you: START YOUR OWN THREAD and you can rip into any rapper your little ol' heart desires.

But what you really need to do is stop ridin' my jock, quit worrying over what threads I DO or DON'T start and seriously get a life so you can cease and desist worrying about my "personal biases" and calling me a hypocrite. Instead of beefing about why I'm not outraged over Snoop Dogg to the same degree I am about Don Imus, focus on what YOU have to say and don't worry about what I'm NOT saying.




No, that ISN'T what you're saying. You have Moif saying, Rap is probably the most destructive form of music ever created. You have Bikerdad throwing out red herrings with his ridiculous How many conservative/shock/whatever talk radio hosts have killed their fellow "artists"? How many rappers have killed other rappers? questions. And of course we have you saying, The 'threat' posed by rappers is, in my mind, far, far greater...particularly when they're given too much of a free pass.

What "threat" does rap pose? Is it a greater threat than Iran seeking to develop nuclear weapons, global warming, crazed gunmen on college campuses or e-Coli in undercooked hamburger? I repeat: I am not going to defend rap music. But this attempt to pardon Imus by convicting rap and hip-hop is an attempt to make a link that isn't there.

Rap didn't make Don Imus call those women, "Nappy-headed ho's" and I challenge anyone to prove differently.

As to whether the Black community has given Black rappers a total and complete pass to do what they like, say what they like, whenever they like, that is flat-out incorrect. This debate has been going on for years among African-Americans. Most White guys just paid no attention. Not until Imus got cracked and now it's all about eliminating double standards and why are rappers being shielded from criticism.

Ya'll just are coming in late to a movie that's already started. For example:

ITEM: C. DeLores Tucker (née Cynthia DeLores Nottage) (October 4, 1927-October 12, 2005) was a U.S. politician and civil rights activist best known for her stance against rap music...Ms. Tucker dedicated much of the last few years of her life to removing sexually explicit lyrics from rap and hip-hop tracks, citing a concern that the lyrics were misogynistic and threatened the moral foundation of the African American community.

Called "narrow-minded" by some rappers who often called her out in their lyrics, Ms. Tucker picketed stores that sold rap music and bought stock in labels like Sony, Time Warner, and others in order to protest hip-hop at their shareholders' meetings. She also fought against the NAACP's decision to nominate late rapper Tupac Shakur for one of its Image Awards and filed a $10 million lawsuit against his estate for comments that the rapper made in his song "How Do U Want It?" on the album All Eyez on Me, in which Shakur rapped "Delores Tucker you's a mother****** / Instead of trying to help a nigga you destroy your brother".

link 1

ITEM: Black entertainers have become the new myth, showing gangsters and bikini-clad women with hyperactive libidos.... For non-black children it creates a gross misrepresentation of the black experience — Zenobia Hikes, vice president for student affairs at Spellman College

Heated discussions regarding misogynist rap lyrics may not be a new phenomenon, but the events surrounding what has come to be known as the "Nelly controversy" have reignited the debate.

The battle began when rap star Nelly was scheduled to appear on the campus of Spelman College earlier this month. The black women's college was teaming up with 4Sho4Kids, a foundation started by Nelly to increase awareness about the need for more African-American bone marrow donors. But as the date approached, a group of students decided that the rapper's latest video, Tip Drill, was far too sexually explicit and demeaning. The phrase "Tip-Drill" refers to an ugly woman with a nice body, good only for sex. In what some see as reinforcing the stereotype of women as a cash-and-carry commodity, Nelly is seen swiping a credit card through a woman's backside. While the students discussed disinviting Nelly or confronting him when he arrived, the foundation withdrew. Wendy Washington, a spokeswoman for Universal Records, said that Nelly did not think "it was appropriate at all for students to use that as a forum."

But the cancellation does not end the protest. Beverly Guy-Sheftall, director of the school's Women's Research and Resource Center, contends that "We need to organize and say no to this stuff, this nasty, disgusting stuff." The students plan a petition drive and a campaign to call TV networks and radio stations to complain when they run what many consider to be increasingly misogynistic images of black women. Mark Anthony Neal, author and professor at the Center for African and African-American Studies, applauds the women for speaking out and points a finger at black males who speak out only when the stereotypes affect them. link 2

ITEM: 11/03/05 When controversial filmmaker Spike Lee was growing up in Brooklyn, he said last night, he aspired to be like the educated black men he saw reading books and going to college.

Today the images in society glorified by gangsta rap - pimping and violence - are overtaking the role education should play, Lee said during a lecture at Middle Tennessee State University's Alumni Memorial Gym.

"Young black kids didn't grow up wanting to be a pimp or a stripper like they do now," Lee said of his own youth. "You might think I'm making generalizations, but I don't think I am. That's how serious this stuff is."

Speaking as part of MTSU's second biennial International Conference on Cultural Diversity, Lee had a message that basically was this: College-age students need to take the initiative not only to learn but to make it cool again to be intelligent. His appearance drew two standing ovations from the packed crowd.

"When I was young, cats going to college got as much (love) as the ones who could rap or play ball," Lee said. "Back then, we were not called sellouts for using our brains. And being intelligent was not frowned upon." link 3

ITEM: Hip hop began as some sort of Afro protest doggerel and was very quickly taken over by the gangster rappers, who emphasized the crudest materialism in which the ultimate goal was money and it did not matter how one got it. The street thug, the gang member, the drug dealer and the pimp became icons of sensibility and success. Then the attitudes of pimps took a high position and the pornographic version of hip hop in which women become indistinguishable bitches and hos made a full-court press on the rap "aesthetic."
---Stanley Crouch/November 20th 2006 link 4

ITEM: Wynton Marsalis is 10 minutes into an angry denunciation of hip-hop and he's just hitting his stride. "I call it 'ghetto minstrelsy'," he says. "Old school minstrels used to say they were 'real darkies from the real plantation'. Hip-hop substitutes the plantation for the streets. Now you have to say that you're from the streets, you shot some brothers, you went to jail. Rappers have to display the correct pathology. Rap has become a safari for people who get their thrills from watching African-American people debase themselves, men dressing in gold, calling themselves stupid names like Ludacris or 50 Cent, spending money on expensive fluff, using language like 'bitch' and 'ho' and 'nigger'."

"How does objecting to hip-hop make me a conservative?" he yells, his gruff holler getting louder and angrier. "Is it OK to call me a nigger and your wife a bitch? If I object to that then I'm a conservative? That is ridiculous!"link5

ITEM: What struck me most, though, was how fully the boys’ music—hard-edged rap, preaching bone-deep dislike of authority—provided them with a continuing soundtrack to their antisocial behavior. So completely was rap ingrained in their consciousness that every so often, one or another of them would break into cocky, expletive-laden rap lyrics, accompanied by the angular, bellicose gestures typical of rap performance. A couple of his buddies would then join him. Rap was a running decoration in their conversation.

Many writers and thinkers see a kind of informed political engagement, even a revolutionary potential, in rap and hip-hop. They couldn’t be more wrong. By reinforcing the stereotypes that long hindered blacks, and by teaching young blacks that a thuggish adversarial stance is the properly “authentic” response to a presumptively racist society, rap retards black success. ---John McWhorter/2003 link 6

I could provide numerous examples, but I wanted to make this point: Outrage against violent, self-hating, sexist, homophobic, thug and pimp celebrating rap music DIDN'T start with with one White guy losing his job.

This is a debate that has raged for years. Most of you that are so up in arms over bad rap music are getting to the party after it started. It began before Imus and without you so don't think you can come in at this late date and set the agenda. Your input has some value and is welcomed, (especially since it's White guys who own most of the record labels that sign these rappers and the TV channels that play their videos). You have a place at the table, but it's too damn late for you to come in now and set the menu.

Because the comparison high lights your biased opinions nighttimer and these I believe are rellevent to the lack of any consistency of principle in your position. An inconsistency you seem unable to answer for I might as well add. Your selective quoting is another indicator of what is important to you, salient points don't seem to matter much, you appear to prefer to make broad generalizations that any one pointing out the difference in perceived injustices must be defending Don Imus. It appears to have utterly escaped your attention that Imus's remarks exist against a greater context than just the Rutger women's basketball team.

Your insistence on this childish generalization permeates your answers in this thread and begs for a response. Thus I respond. The only reason why I am 'riding your jock' with regards to threads you haven't started, is because in threads you have started, your position has invariably demonstrated a one sided holier-than-thou attitude which laments racism only when it slots nicely into your narrow eyed perception of what racism is; in other words, when it effects people with whom you identify with. In this case, apparently, your daughter.

More often than not you meet other perceptions of racism with belittling indifference, or down right hostility. In other words, your posts indicate to me that you are a hypocrite who laments racism when it is targetting black people but could not care less if the situation is reversed and I feel no shame in pointing this out. You may not be responsible for what rappers say, but you are responsible for what you write, and what by comparison, what you don't write.

Good Morning NT!!!! I know you're excited that I'm back... been workin' like a donkey. (is that politically incorrect? maybe I'll get fired for that.... hmmm... )

Anyway-
The issue isn't with rappers, per se. It's about the double standard among skin tones. If I were just a LITTLE bit darker and didn't have blonde hair and blue eyes... lol... I could say whatever it is that I want.

Seriously. So long as there are black talk show hosts, comics, rappers, and/or celebrities of whatever assortment making comments that white people (of any lot) cannot make... we'll consider it an egregious double standard.

Don Imus is retarded for making comments that would alienate anyone that might listen, white or black. But getting fired? It's basically a result of white America's inability to embrace black culture as a part of America, and black America's refusal to accept that there isn't some magical cultural dividing line and that culturally we're all pretty well melted together (i.e. the factors that distinguish culture... food/music/language, etc). Black America, in my opinion, is only divided because we say it is.

However, regardless of the acceptability of Imus's comments, there IS a double standard. Think of it this way. Rickey Smiley can make comments and jokes about white people on 97.9 the beat here in Dallas, every day of the week. Who cares? NO one really. When Steve Harvey was on 97.9 he was even worse. They surely aren't fired for such comments.

To me it's not about "rappers", but moreover that white men are the only demographic that don't have the social ability to make comments unrelated to their demographic. Black women? Hispanic Men? (etc, etc)... Free game.

No one is responsible for what they don't write. They're only responsible for what they do write. That's just a little bit of logic mixed with a lot of common sense. And to bring it all home; Imus is responsible for what he said. Not what he did not say. Take your ego and emotion out of the equation, Moif and that is the only plausible explanation for his act of career suicide.

It is difficult to be enlightened on matters of race by someone like you whose own racist feelings towards non-Whites in Denmark has been displayed for anyone to see throughout threads on this board. Clean up your own house of jumbled bigotry, Moif, before you attempt to critique mine. You'll find it gives you a bit more credibility on the subject of race and what motivates people to think as they do about it.

As for the rest of the post, if it mattered to me what you think of me, I might be concerned. The fact is it does not matter to me if you think I'm a racist or a hypocrite. Obviously, you derive some odd satisfaction from reading my posts, so you will be pleased to know that as long as I'm here on I will probably continue to provide you in the future with more examples of how I'm such a racist hypocrite. Keep reading and keep making this personal to you.

But it still won't make me care what you think.




Don't waste all that fine faux outrage on me, Aevans176. Send it off to the powers that be at CBS Radio and MSNBC. Don't forget to carbon copy Proctor and Gamble, Staples and all the other corporations that cut-and-run and left your boy hanging out like yesterday's wash.

Apparently you care what this Rickey Smiley says because that's twice you have mentioned him as if his existence on a local radio station is proof positive that a double standard exists.

Imus wasn't fired so much for his comments. He had made similar and worse comments in the past. He was fired because he was costing his employers Bottom line: that is the only unforgivable sin for Corporate America.

You wanna blame someone for what happened to Don Imus, Aevans176? Start with Don Imus.

NT... take that cynical and non-objective tone with someone less apt to reply.
Seriously. Why would a large company fire someone for something like this? Simple answer- black outrage. Black people got mad, made a mountain out of a molehill... and whammo- sponsors and corporate execs alike turned tail and ran.

It's alot like when that Navy boat captain got the boot for sinking that Japanese ship a few years ago. Maybe the actions were different, but the Navy wanted him out for the simple reason that Japan was up in arms. It's political. So was Don Imus.

Had black Americans seen it for what it was, a nasty comment about the Rutgers women, it would've never made headlines. However, a white man using the word "nappy" turned into somethin' large.

I need not only reference Rickey Smiley, but how 'bout Oprah? How about Steve Harvey? How about nearly any black comic, rapper, or anyone else apt to make "political commentary"? Come on NT. You're smarter than that.

It's publicly acceptable for black Americans (not to mention hispanics... need I mention Carlos Mencia and/or Paul Rodriguez) to make comments that white MEN would never be able to make. That's the truth and I'd love for you to show me otherwise....

*note- if you plan to talk about slavery and years of oppresion by the man... save your breath*

Aevans176, if you understand business and corporations as well as you say you do, then you should understand that most businesses don't want to tick off possible consumers. Black people use products made by Proctor and Gamble and they buy office supplies at Staples. Apparently they made the business decision that this wasn't a "mountain out of a molehill."

If you disagree with those people, White, as well as Black, who found the remarks of Imus racist and sexist, that's fine. But what rises to your standard of outrage is not all-encompassing. Blame it on "Black outrage" all you like. It won't change the fact that Black people did not fire Don Imus. White executives did.



That's your interpretation and if it works for you, great. Apparently though it's a minority opinion among White men like you. It's just astonishing how you've tried to make Imus the victim here when in reality it's always been those Black women of the Rutgers women's basketball team.

Then again, it's become obvious that you and others don't give a damn about those women.



What I am is smarter than accepting something because you say it is. And if you have an example of Oprah Winfrey or Steve Harvey calling a group of women, "nappy-headed ho's" I'd be interested in seeing it.




Don't strain your brain trying to anticipate what I might or might not say and definitely don't try to tell me what I can and cannot reference. If you want an honest answer don't try to limit my response. However, I do plan on saving my breath. It might be worth the time and effort to "show you otherwise" if you had an open mind, but prior experience and history tells me you don't.

Excellent response, Aevans. Everyone walks around on eggshells today in the face of organized black activism, right, wrong, or indifferent.

Another great example--have a black employee who is incompetent, or worse? You won't fire him/her until you have an inch-thick dossier on their many transgressions. White guy? One screw up and you fire him. We all know the fired black employee will run to their atty, the Feds, the local black preacher, the news media, etc., and raise holy hell with you, even if they were stealing money from the company, so you'd better have your file in order and then some. I have personally worked on a number of these matters as an attorney, so I know whereof I speak. My advice always begins with finding some way to learn of the race of the employee, as it will affect my advice to an employer.

This double standard is ridiculous, of course, but it will require white society to organize and raise h@ll like the American black culture does before it will stop. Right now, when whites try to organize any kind of entity in any way related to race-relations, we are labelled Klansmen, of course. When the double standard gets bad enough and affects us sufficiently, we whites may change our tune, but that is how it is now.

The real shame of poor race relations in the US is that it has impaired the development of a unified, consistent, powerful culture underpinning our nation that would enable us to compete better in the world. Whenever we waste goodwill, time and money fighting amongst ourselves over race, class, income distribution, or whatever, we are not learning to be more competitive with the Japanese or Chinese, studying engineering and science, or otherwise engaging in productive pursuits. A real shame indeed and one that is costing us money and standing in the world every day.

NT,
Steve Harvey doesn't talk about black people... which I don't know how you didn't get my point... but he DOES talk about white people on a regular basis. How do you not get that?

Seriously. If anyone is closed minded... it's surely you. POT CALLING KETTLE... POT CALLING KETTLE, ARE YOU THERE KETTLE???"

Need I post links of talk show hosts or comedians that make fun of white people (out and out)?
How is that not a double standard?

I don't think Imus's comment was even racist, but I DO believe that had our culture not been so sensitive to silly remarks about black people, he'd still been employed. I do understand business NT. I also understand that the board of directors for all of his sponsors were less likely to be worried about his comments than being associated with a man that black America all of a sudden deemed a racist... regardless of whether the comments were biggoted or not. It IS about $$$... and about BLACK America not practicing what they preach.

Really. Do I need to post links to examples? It will definitely be embarrassing.

(Edited to add... how about Chris Rock's opinion?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q8LxO4wnCQ

If two people stand accused of the same crime, but you only call on the one to answer for it, then you most certainly are responsible for what you didn't write for by not doing so, you've made a clear distinction between the two.

My 'ego' has no bearing on that, what so ever.


Ooooh, an accusation of racism... but based on what exactly? which racial group have I promoted over another? Whom have I derided on the basis of the colour of their skin nighttimer, please enlighten me if your going to accuse me of racism.To which non whites in Denmark are you refering? I'm not aware of having expressed any racial bigotry with regards to 'non whites' in Denmark...

...unless, are you trying to claim Islam is a race?


If you don't care what I think, then why do you care about my credibility? As it happens, I'm not interested in my 'standing' on AD. If I were, I'd be less inclined to debate anything at all.


Yeah, I know this. You told me about five times in this thread alone. Apparently it hasn't filtered through to you yet that I am not concerned with whether or not you care what I think. I am not asking you to care about anything, nor asking for your acceptance. I am responding for purely personal reasons which are dependent on opposing arguments, and not for your personal concern which leaves no lasting impression me.

I do not post on AD because it matters to me what people think about me. I suggest (again) that if you don't care, then just ignore me.

Annnnnnddd, a big shout-out to quick for providing today's Angry White Man moment. It's nothing but a anecdotal gripe which adds zip to the Don Imus versus the Rutgers women's basketball team, but thanks for the free legal advice.



How do you not get that Steve Harvey is a comedian? How do you not get that people PAY cash money to hear Harvey do his act? If you bother to look a little harder on YouTube you'll find ample evidence that Harvey is a equal-opportunity offender.

Really, Aevans176, if you're trying to compare a comedian doing his act where insulting people is par for the course, you are really trying to make a comparison that doesn't even remotely relate. If you were to find an example of someone like Tom Joyner insulting White women that would be a much more apt comparison. Compare a apple to a apple, not a orange.

Going after Chris Rock or Steve Harvey as some bogus example of Black racism won't get it. You might as well have dug up dead old Richard Pryor if you want to show a Black comedian whose jabs at White people---and Black people were done with such skill as to be raised to high art.



For you maybe. Not for me because Chris Rock on the stage making jokes about White folks isn't remotely the same thing as Imus hiring a producer to do "nigger jokes." This isn't about talk show hosts or comedians that make fun of White people. This is about one broken-down, ugly old goat in a cowboy hat who got run out of town before sundown.

This isn't about making fun of White people or Black people. Most comedians don't have sponsors or are fronted by corporations that have to worry about running afoul of the Federal Communications Commission over what they broadcast over the public airwaves.

You can come up with literally thousands of examples of comedians doing their thing. It's not the same thing as a White shock jock slamming a group of Black women over their looks. It's disingenuous to pretend it is.

I completely disagree. This guy says it best.
From Mac Johnson of Human Events:


Unintentional Racism. Perfect.

Here's another great one... from Joseph C Phillips:


If a black guy in my office makes a "trailer trash" statement, or possibly even makes a hillbilly comment, no one believes him to be racist. We actually joke about these very things. However- Lord help me if I say "nappy headed" or "ghetto" or anything of that nature.

It's sad. It's literally absurd that Americans of any color take themselves so seriously, that they perpetuate a cycle of divisiveness and literally retarded thinking that draws lines in the sand daily based upon the tone of someone's skin.

Lest we not forget that white people can have nappy hair. I know 2-3 people off the top of my head that fit that category. One's blonde haired and blue eyed. Get a grip y'all.

Look there are always people standing around waiting to be offended. If idiots like Imus are willing say the things necessary to make the Idle Offense Brigade offended then fine. This is a win-win for everyone but the IOB. Imus is gone and there's yet another manufactured outrage to further dilute the racist agenda. As an added bonus Al Sharpton will further prove himself a disingenuous buffoon when he cows to the rappers in a few weeks on page 130 of the NYT.

So what you're saying is it's no big thing that Bernard McGuirk was brought in to do the "nigger jokes" on the Imus show? If anyone should take offense to that fact they are the ones with the problem, not the Imus radio program?

You're cool with that?

I just want to be clear on what it is you are defending with such vigor, Aevans176. If I'm misrepresenting your position, please correct me.

Bikerdad


Is it worse for who? I think rap and talk radio affect different demographics differently. I don't know of any radio hosts who have killed other radio hosts, nor do I know of any rappers that have killed other rappers. And I would be surprised if you knew of any rappers who have killed other rappers.

But lets test the logic of the point that you were trying to make. If I can think of more politicians or postal workers who have killed other politicians and postal workers, does that mean that politics and the US postal service are worse than rap? I venture to say that you can find more people in congress accused or convicted of more crimes than you'll find the top 40 rap artists of the last 10 years.

Hobbes


If you are aware of the criticism of rap to the extent that you say you are, then you would say that there needs to be more of it and you wouldn't speak of it as if it didn't exist. Also, who are some of these Imus-criticizing, offensive-rap-defending people you speak of (other than the rappers themselves)?



Review what you wrote, you never qualified your references to "rappers" to be anything less than all "rappers". In fact, that statement was the first time that you had written "some" and "rappers" in the same sentence in this thread. But, that is all neither here nor there, my only goal was to get you to consider using terms that weren't so absolute. It's a pet peeve of min how people tend to lump together all of rap and hip hop into some monolith. And my comment about having limited exposure to rap music was directed at Moif, not at you. I screwed up on naming the quote.

That said, I agree with the spirit of your statement. Some rappers (too many) use degrading, sexist overtones in their music. But you left out the part about some of them being held accountable for it (Ludacris lost his Pepsi endorsement deal) just likes Imus finally did. So why did you even bring it up?

Moif


My quote above about being having limited exposure to rap was directed to you. And if you truly see it as you have described, then this comment from you only affirms what I said earlier. Characterizing rap by the narrow band that you have been exposed to is like me characterizing all silent movies as racist because I watched "Birth of a Nation". Saying that you see rap for "what it is" suggests that you cannot see rap as having a diverse set of subgenres and themes. Your point would be strengthened if it were less general and more specific.

aevans176




Are you serious? Tons of white men have been making racist, offensive public comments without being fired. You even quoted NT where he pointed out how Imus has been doing this for years. As far as I know, Imus didn't just turn white this year. So for the 30+ years he's been a radio shock jock making offensive comments he's been a white man making offensive comments which clearly contradicts what you're saying. Howard Stern Show, South Park (created by white men), Drawn Together (created by white men), Family Guy (created by white men), The Man Show, Rush Limbaugh are all examples of white men being racist, sexist, and any other kind of offensive you can think of and not losing their jobs for it.

Now I'm not saying that non-white people don't make offensive public comments. You asked for someone to show you otherwise so that's what I did. White people are "allowed" to make offensive comments in media as evidenced by the numerous examples of white men making offensive comments in the media and not being fired for it (again contradicting what you are saying).

quick


Ok, let's say that that isn't absurd and that it's actually true. Then this "organized black activism" would have to be pretty sizable and have a lot of influence over the country. If that were true, don't you think this "organized black activism" would have done something about Imus a long time ago? If it were so powerful and influential, and everyone was walking on eggshells, they why did it take 30 some odd years to get rid of him? And why hasn't it got rid of Fox news for that matter?

BaphometsAdvocate


I'm just curious, are the girls on the team part of this IOB as well, or is it reserved for everyone else that was offended that wasn't one of the girls? Also, would you have felt differently if the parents of the girls were the ones calling for Imus' head in the media, would the outrage be justified if it came from them?

Worth noting that the agent provocateur of this little farce has now gotten the axe as well:

NEW YORK (AP) -- The longtime producer for Don Imus' syndicated radio show joined his boss on the unemployment line one week after the disgraced broadcaster was booted from the airwaves for racist and sexist comments about the Rutgers women's basketball team.

Bernard McGuirk, who joined the "Imus in the Morning Show" as producer in 1987, was let go late Thursday by WFAN-AM for his role in the ugly incident, CBS Radio spokeswoman Karen Mateo said Friday. CBS Inc., the parent company for WFAN, pulled Imus off the air on April 12.

McGuirk was one of Imus' frequent on-air foils, and was involved in the now-infamous "nappy-headed hos" exchange that left both without jobs. He provided much of the program's dicier content, a great deal of it while doing over-the-top impressions of the late Cardinal John O'Connor and New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin.

Imus, in an oft-repeated schtick, would deride McGuirk as a "bald-headed stooge" when the material veered into dangerous territory. McGuirk also handled the booking of Imus' guests, a group that ran the gamut from presidential candidates to mainstream media pundits.

You're Fired!

Took a little while but the pit bull finally joins its master in ignoble exile.

I think my point is not being portrayed correctly. I'm not against the rappers, I'm against those I've seen defending them while simultaneously criticizing Imus' comments. I've seen several such editorials, and the more they try to rationalize such a position, the lamer their arguments seem to me. They essentially lack intellectual honesty, and are purely rationalizing a stance that can't really be justified, and the lengths some have gone to to try to justify their stance strike me as ludicrous. That is why I brought it up. My comments are directly solely to those espousing this double standard. I think the people taking this stance are in the minority. I also personally don't care what language some rap artists use in their music...I have the ability to buy or listen to what I want. I further don't think most rap falls into this category. In fact, I would say it is the distinct minority anymore, indicating that most of its audience also probably doesn't care for such language. Which makes the defense of its practioners that do cross the line all the more strange to me...again, especially when those same people criticize Imus' comments. For those individuals, it is a double standard, and should be pointed out as such. That's really all I'm saying.

I think you are falling into your own accusation here Tonyman.

Your assertion is mistaken. I can see the various subgenre's of rap quite well and my exposure is obviously greater than you presume. I own enough Cd's by Del'a'Soul for example to know the differences between their sound and the Black Eyed Pea's, or Ludicris. But that doesn't change what I said. Having a lighter, more complex side to it doesn't change the fact that no other music form ever invented has had either aggressive hostility or the international impact of rap music. You won't find German teenagers listening to country and western music which describes women as whores, or African youths listening to Jazz tracks which promote gang culture.

The only music genre which even comes close to rap is death metal but even that with its naked aggression does not demean other people on the basis of their gender or skin colour. Only rap does this in any context great enough to be directly dangerous to society.

The reason why this is dangerous is simple. Because it allows a double standard to grow and it promotes sexual and racial tension.

If you have links to articles written by those pushing this double standard, Hobbes, I'd really like to read some of them. There has been a marked reluctance in the Black community to criticize rappers for their remarks; I'd agree that is so. Then again, it just may be it's historically easier to bring the noise against old White shock jocks than young Black millionaires.

It doesn't excuse what Don Imus did. It just means Black people have to do a better job of practicing what they preach.



I watched a video by a young lady named, Lil' Mama for her song, "Lip Gloss." It was a nice little bit of hip-hop pop and while enjoyable, throughly disposable. Yet, when I pulled the video up online it was labeled as the "clean" version. I guess that means somewhere in cyberspace there's a "dirty" version? How sweet.

The record industry lives and dies on breaking new artists and hit songs, so if 50 Cent has a big selling CD, you're going to get 20 imitators of 50 Cent all inked up, bragging how hard they are and ready to die for their rep. Back when hair-metal bands in spandex and moussed manes were all the rage you couldn't get away from the likes of Poison and Cinderella. Eventually, one too many power ballads later, a guy in torn jeans and dirty blonde hair dropped a little "Smells Like Teen Spirit" on the world and grunge killed hair metal. One day the same fate will befall gangsta rap. It's inevitable.

But that's no excuse for some of the weak-as-water defenses and whiny excuses I've seen for Imus' remarks. Some posters have been been honestly earnest and perhaps slightly uninformed about the drama Imus kicked up. Others have offered up some truly ignorant opinions at which one can only shake your head in disbelief or laugh at the appalling stupidity exhibited.

Anyone who would defend the conscious decision of Imus to hire a producer to make "nigger jokes" possesses some deeply suspect personal philosophies of their own. If they think that's an okay response to a handful of insignificant rappers whose careers will last as long as a firefly fart, they've got some serious issues all their own to work out.

No, the girls, the school, the parents... they are actual Offendees. If they called for Imus' head it would be totally justified. You'll note they didn't though. It's likely they needed to be told about the remarks. Let's face it Imus should have been showed (shown?) the door years ago.

Rappers killing other rappers...
The Metropolitan Police Department developed grave concerns about local gangsta rappers months before the shootout that left Crump and Prendes dead.

In July, police launched what would become a six-month investigation of the local gangsta rap scene in reaction to three fatal shootings in eight weeks. Rappers were both the targets and assailants in each incident.

Every so often even my cynicism has to take a break.

Rap mogul wants racist lyrics ban

Rappers killing other rappers? Say it isn't so! Certainly this is a unique phenomenon of two people in the same profession killing each other.

Except it isn't. Doctors kill other doctors. Athletes kill other athletes. Soldiers kill other soldiers wearing the same uniform as them (Pat Tillman, anyone?) and an accountant probably would kill another accountant if they were mad enough.

And cops? Cops shoot cops all the time.

A veteran Boston police officer is expected to resign from the force after pleading guilty yesterday to charges he shot a fellow cop during an off-duty argument about whether he was too drunk to drive, officials said.
Officer Paul Durkin, 50, entered the guilty plea yesterday, just days before his trial on assault and battery charges was expected to start. He also indicated in court that he would turn in his badge after 27 years of service to the Boston Police Department, entitling him to a city pension.
Prosecutors said that after a night of drinking June 22, Durkin pulled his service revolver out and shot Officer Joseph Behnke outside that cop’s West Roxbury home. Behnke was shot in the left hip, and was brought to the hospital by his wife, a nurse. link

Still doesn't let Imus off the hook. Thanks for the questionable analogy, though BD.

I'm not sure Iunderstand what you mean turnea. Are you sceptical that he means it, is that what your saying?

Actually I was skeptical that anyone on the industry would ever say it. I believe he's honestly trying to affect a change in the business which is a great thing.

Make no mistake, this wasn't a forced mea culpa like Imus'. Simmons had nothing to lose by keeping his mouth shut.

It restores a tiny bit of my faith in humanity that he didn't.

Sorry, Turnea, maybe it's just the cynicism of my advancing age kicking in, but I'd apply the wit and wisdom of Chuck D. to Russell Simmons' remarks and caution, "Don't believe the hype."

It's real easy for Simmons to put the weight on programmers and ask them to "beep" the offending words, "nigger," "bitch" and "ho" from the songs, but radio stations are just the part of the machine that disseminates this crap to the kids rappin' it on the playground. But what about Simmons declaring he will no longer sign acts to DefJam who used the three offending words?

Maybe because now we're getting into his pocket and messin' with his money? Lyrical content featuring violent, misogynist and self-hatred of other Black people sells CDs, Turnea. You think the rappers and record executives are going to leave that money on the table? All those "niggers," "bitches" and "hos" have been very profitable to Simmons. He's become a wealthy man from it.

I've never heard of a rich man who didn't want to get richer (or die tryin').

This is one of those times when we can learn a LOT more about what should be done from the women whom are the objects of disrespect by vulgar rap than from the men who bring it fresh to radio and television stations.

How about getting those "nigga lovin’, ho slappin’, bitch callin’" rappers dropped from their record labels? Can we get a national protest on that? Can I depend on Rev. Al and Rev. Jesse to spearhead that one in the same matter that they orchestrated Imus’ early retirement? That’s what I want to know as a Black woman.

Could Black America get behind a boycott of the radio stations and television networks that play the songs and videos of rappers that continuously degrade women with their lyrics by talking about how and what they want to do to my body?

Could Black America for once and for all stop “steppin’” to R. "I Like to Have Sex With Underage Females" Kelly’s beats long enough to hear the lyrics of his billboard chart topping song that basically says, among other things, that he's a flirt, he's a pimp, your woman is a ho, all women are hos, he's rich and cute and he's going to have sex with anyone woman he wants?

Could it be that we spend way too much time focused on people who aren’t in the least bit an influence on our young children and not enough time educating them about the effects of using terms like ho and bitch to describe women? link

The increasing scrutiny that is being directed toward irresponsible rappers (like the jaw-dropping stupidity of
Cam'ron and his "stop snitchin'" philosophy he explained on "60 Minutes" will only bring more heat on record companies that profit from pimpin' fools like him. At some point some congressman or senator is going to hold a hearing and we'll see the David Geffens of the world raising their right hand to be sworn in---which might not be a bad idea.

I don't believe Simmons is serious. I don't believe rappers and record execs will get serious until someone starts boycotting Wal-Mart, Best Buy, Target for selling this stuff and when THEY start howling, the record companies will have to stand up and pay attention.

Somewhere Don Imus is having a good laugh over the crapstorm he started.

Have you even watched Def/Jam? Because its pretty clean, but also is not his biggest money making endeavor, its poetry for crying out loud!

'I don't believe Simmons is serious. I don't believe rappers and record execs will get serious until someone starts boycotting Wal-Mart, Best Buy, Target for selling this stuff and when THEY start howling, the record companies will have to stand up and pay attention.'

Well, hold your breath and pulleese spare the soapbox. What planet do you think you are you living on? You need to get a grip and enter the human race. Nobody goes up on Walmart, you cant have that as a scapegoat, and you cant always blame someone else.

Just Try to be nice for once. Simmons is an ok guy, he is evolving, as most of us do......

He means it, but DEF-Jam is another catagory. It needs to have authenticity, not commercial censorship.
I dont believe in censorship, and one thing created a domino effect.

I want to talk about this more but Im falling asleep.

1. If the remarks made by Imus and his crew about the Rutgers women's basketball team were racist should he be fired?

Yes. But IMO they were not racist.


2. If the remarks made by Imus and his crew are NOT racist in your opinion, is he being unfairly criticized and a victim of the overly sensitive politically correct

You bet. Meanwhile the very people who came after him ignore pervasive, violent and racist rap music.

No, I haven't watched Def Poetry, but I have watched Def Comedy Jam and I own albums from the DefJam recording label and I can tell you the comedy show got pretty raw and raunchy, which doesn't bother me. But it also mainstreamed words like "bitch," 'ho," and "nigger" which are three words I find objectionable. I thought you did as well, but maybe you don't.



I just know I didn't get lectured by you about getting on a soapbox, getting a grip and blaming someone else. Not after this little ho-ho-ho:

Merry Christmas, to the fact that you suck as Americans, you dont really care about anyone but yourselves.

Merry EDITED TO REMOVE ATTEMPT AT BYPASSING PROFANITY FILTER Christmas, to a corrupt, lying, torturing and hypoctritical nation of sheep, that allowed their country to fall and innocents to die because they were too cowed to stand up and notice what was going on, and be accountable for the WAR CRIMES they comitted whilst they danced the night away, at holiday, as others starved to death, were murdered DAY AFTER DAY in their name. Happy New Year

post #18

Artemise, I'll make you a deal: I'll spare you the lectures on racism if you'll spare me the lectures on sexism and 9/11 conspiracy theories.



Well, hooray for Russell. I like a lot of things Simmons does to give hip-hop a social conscience, but think twice if you think this is only about selfless altruism. Simmons has a new book that came out the exact same day he made his remarks, so pardon me if I wonder if he might have an ulterior motive to getting his name into the news cycles.

But don't take my sexist African-American male word for anything. Maybe you'll give some credence to a African-American woman who isn't all that dazzled by Simmons.

Writer Joan Morgan said the announcement amounted to "absolutely nothing." She called the recommendations "short-sighted at best and disingenuous at worst." It was, she said, an "anemic, insufficient response" that failed to address homophobia and other issues in certain strains of hip-hop culture and rap music.

Morgan, author of "When Chickenheads Come Home to Roost: A Hip-Hop Feminist Breaks It Down," said calling for the removal of the three epithets assumes "all of the violence, misogyny and sexism in hip-hop is only expressed in" those words.

"It's says let's take the responsibility away from people creating the content and put it back on the corporations," said Morgan. link

I thought you were the expert on recognizing when you're being manipulated. Guess not.

I am basically worried about how far censorship might go.
While what Imus said was just insane, because a man, any man doesnt slander a group of highly achieving college women and get away with it, and it did address a sexist and racist coverage on the airwaves that has been longstanding, I also think there is a possibility of taking this too far.

I dont desire a completely 'cleansed' society. While I was never happy about Bitches and Ho's, I didnt consider it my first priority, but the Imus situation brought up obvious double standards.

Censoring Def Jams and especially Def Poetry Jams, is just that one step too FAR. I also dont want all my movies and music to be watered down to the level of Fake, clean. Some levels of honesty need to remain.
The movie 'The Departed' was loaded with racial and ethnic slurs and stereotypes, but was honest.

I think the public inherantly understands when something or someone has crossed the line, but this is not often times immediate.

NT-I said to you a post back or in Ims that the responsibility for rap lyrics lie with the creators, while you said that Record companies are almost all owned by whites, which I didnt se the connection. Now you change that tune, blame Simmons for putting it on the corporations and not the creators, and now on Walmart and other Corporations. Make up your mind.
I just think you argue ANY road, twisting and turning to suit yourself. Is there a consistant theory? Or is everything all White fault/ all the time.
Forgive me, but its just a no win, for anyone.
Imus got fired. You win. Rosie O'Donnell quit over censorship. You win again, 911 Truth is censored, for awhile.
On AD you cant even say the crap word. We are doing well. Soon we shall be a nation of dumbed down drones.

As far as my views about war, torture, and 911, I think they are much more pertinent to this nation than a washed up cowboy who made a stupid comment, and has been making them for YEARS with no reprocussions. However I debated all of it with you as honestly as I could, nontheless being accused of being ' oh so white' as if it were an insult, which you never quite 'get' as insulting in your myopic viewpoint. Perhaps you are just 'oh so black' you dont get that most of us are not race hating.
If you thought you would embarrass, or worse, hurt me over my December commentary, think again. I still stand by every word.
The left/right, black/white, male/female divide and conquer scenario is a total scam in this day and age. I dont believe in it, its a farce.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

No. Rosie O'Donnell quit because she wanted 10,000,000USD for 1 year and they wanted to give her 10,000,000 for 3 years. Rosie quit over censorship? What was she planning to say that she didn't?

What? Come on NT, sometimes I think you'll post any ol' thing that pops in your head.

Pat Tillman was killed completely by accident. Do you even have an incling of what happened there? I sincerely doubt it. MOST IMPORTANTLY, what does his death have to do with rappers shooting each other on the street?

(frankly, I'm not sure how all that has to do with Don Imus and America's monster double standard... but I digress)

While the analogy wasn't going to win awards, the point IS that society accepts a certain level of conduct from BASICALLY ANYONE who isn't a WHITE MALE. Hell- even some of those get away with it if they're handicapped or have some other affliction (i.e. Ralphie May).

Black people, hispanics, etc all can talk about "ethnic" issues, but GOD FORBID a white man make a statement with the words "nappy and hoes" in it.

That pretty much sums up the debate about this issue. Imus didn't clearly say anything racist (e.g. you blankety-blank n-word), but it was easy to find it if you looked for it. And his demise was championed by some of the biggest bigots in society.

Stephen Colbert said it pretty well the other night when he interviewed Russell Simmons: "You don't have to tell me I'm white because I know I am white - I can't use the n-word".

Yeah, yeah, yeah...we know, Aevans176. You're all bent out of shape because a poor White guy got slapped down for singling out a group of women he didn't know and never did him any harm as a target for his racially-motivated ridicule. Why don't you and DaytonRocker send Imus a nice sympathy card since you're feeling so sorry for him?

It's very telling the river of crocodile tears you have poured over a twit like Imus, but not one drop will you squeeze out for the Black women who are the true victims of this sorry farce.

The killing of Pat Tillman and the obscene covering up, disinformation and outright lies that have followed are a national disgrace that dishonors a brave man, but that's another subject for another thread.

Since you apparently missed it, here's a question I directed toward to you:



This is not about whether a White man can't say something a Black man can. It's about being held accountable for what you say, Aevans176. Your attempt to spin the subject into some loss of personal liberty evades the point. Just as you have evaded mounting a defense of a indefensible fact about the Imus program.

aevans176


What are you talking about? Imus is only now being fired for the same comments that society has been accepting from his show for the last 30 years.

This is what you're doing.

You're completely ignoring Imus' behavior for the last 30 years and trying to use his firing as evidence for society picking on white males. At the same time, you are completely ignoring other white males who continue to make racist, sexist comments and have not been fired/marginalized. And you are completely ignoring non-white males who have been fired/marginalized for their offensive comments.

Have you never heard of Howard Stern? Andrew Dice Clay? South Park? Drawn Together? Family Guy? those are all either white men or creations of white men and they all make comments as offensive or worse than Imus recent comments. Society still accepts their comments.

So tell me, how does your theory hold any water?

NT- please start using FACTS, not rhetorical rants that intentionally mislead the people on AD.

The link you posted says nothing about "N" jokes that Imus or anyone on his show made. McGuirk made some pretty wild comments, but not even close to what you're insinuating.

EVIDENCE???? . NO way man. Not ever. You've posted your subversive and outlandish "feelings" coupled with links that don't support your case.

The fact of the matter is that even your Tillman idea is absurd. Cover ups, conspiracy plots. Everyone please get your tin foil. The "MAN" can hear what you're saying.

If you plan on proving a point.... PLEASE address why in American society it is PERFECTLY acceptable for black comics to out and out make statements about white people, but if I get up and talk about the black people in Shreveport and the hilarious things I've experienced, it's INSTANTLY racist... funny and/or true or not. A black comic can talk about trailer parks and white trash folks, but if I even CONSIDERED talkin' about gold teeth or black people riding bikes with chrome rims talking on cell phones... I'm a biggot.