Full Version: Denver P.S.- 15,000 bypass it-why?
I like the Rocky Mountain News as they have a number of interesting specials. I was very surprised to find their latest series on the DPS brain drain, I was shocked to learn that 15,000 students are not sent to DPS and that an additional 4,600 don't attend due to legal problems or home-schooling.
Some interesting tidbits:
Questions for debate:
1.)What can DPS do to fill their emptying ranks?
2.)Why does DPS have this problem?
3.)If you were a parent, on what specific criteria would you opt your child out of DPS?
Bonus question:
4.)Will our national cohesiveness suffer if middle class and affluent students separate themselves from the poor and largely minority poopulation of DPS and other districts around the nation?
Some interesting tidbits:
QUOTE
But with a loss of more than 4,800 students in neighborhood schools during that period, DPS is filling, on average, only 68 percent of its space. The district has 31,000 empty seats out of 98,000.
This declining neighborhood school enrollment, which isn't keeping up with population growth, is forcing the district to confront one of the toughest, most divisive experiences a community can go through — closing some of its schools. A citizens group is meeting to consider that painful task.
This declining neighborhood school enrollment, which isn't keeping up with population growth, is forcing the district to confront one of the toughest, most divisive experiences a community can go through — closing some of its schools. A citizens group is meeting to consider that painful task.
QUOTE
If the trends continue, a public school population that is heavily weighted toward low-income students could lose even more middle- and upper-income students. DPS already is predominantly Hispanic, and those students are more likely than black or Anglo students to come from poor families, based on percentages receiving free- or reduced-price lunches.
Twenty-six percent of Anglo children in Denver go to private schools, and middle-income black families are the least likely to attend their neighborhood schools, the analysis found.
"We don't want 100 percent of the Anglo community checking out altogether. Then we are in a death spiral," said DPS Superintendent Michael Bennet. "We want middle-class African-Americans just as much. We want everyone."
Twenty-six percent of Anglo children in Denver go to private schools, and middle-income black families are the least likely to attend their neighborhood schools, the analysis found.
"We don't want 100 percent of the Anglo community checking out altogether. Then we are in a death spiral," said DPS Superintendent Michael Bennet. "We want middle-class African-Americans just as much. We want everyone."
Questions for debate:
1.)What can DPS do to fill their emptying ranks?
2.)Why does DPS have this problem?
3.)If you were a parent, on what specific criteria would you opt your child out of DPS?
Bonus question:
4.)Will our national cohesiveness suffer if middle class and affluent students separate themselves from the poor and largely minority poopulation of DPS and other districts around the nation?
QUOTE(nebraska29 @ Apr 16 2007, 10:41 AM) 
Questions for debate:
1.)What can DPS do to fill their emptying ranks?
Sounds like they need to prove they can do as good a job as private/charter/home schools. From the people interviewed in the article it seems that there is no confidence that DPS can provide a decent education. 1.)What can DPS do to fill their emptying ranks?
QUOTE(nebraska29 @ Apr 16 2007, 10:41 AM)
2.)Why does DPS have this problem?
Well I don't live in Denver but it sounds a lot like DPS isn't very good at educating people. When people have a choice and the means they will always choose the better. It seems there are a lot of better choices in Denver.QUOTE(nebraska29 @ Apr 16 2007, 10:41 AM)
3.)If you were a parent, on what specific criteria would you opt your child out of DPS?
For me there are 2 really important things:1) Safety. You have metal detectors at the entrances of your school - I'm out and so are my kids.
2) Have specialized programs. Make sure my kid isn't bored. Make sure my kid has a way to catch up.
The real issue with all Public Schools is mediocrity. The public school system is often only able to best serve the middle of the road kids. They are often ill equipped to deal with the top and bottom of learners. Besides genetics there is home life that will differentiate the ability of a student. Case in point. Old neighbors did not work with their children at home because that was "the school's job" and they often complained that there was too much homework. Needless to say their children were often at the bottom of the class in grades - which they also complained about. They actually complained that it "wasn't fair" that we "worked with" our "kids so damned much." After all "how could" their "kids ever catch up."
1.)What can DPS do to fill their emptying ranks?
First off, I don't think this is the real problem. Check out their attitude: we have an "x" number of student capacity--how do we fill it? Instead of fitting their capacity to their needs, they insist on trying to increase the need for their service. This isn't a chain store, it's a school district.
But to answer the question, they must offer a competitive product. In simple terms, they must offer a quality education. Flight from urban school districts is not limited to Denver, it is nationwide. More affluent people are fleeing the city schools to either the suburbs (most common) or the private schools. Both of these options offer (in the minds of the parents) a higher quality school "product". Families are acting out a vote of no confidence by voting with their feet (or moving vans).
I find it both sad and funny that the district is promoting its "International Academy" and other magnet schools. How about teaching the kids how to read, you fools.
2.)Why does DPS have this problem?
Poor performance. In 2001, Denver had 21 of the states 28 worst schools, according to the state board of education. They were rated "unsatisfactory". In addition, 74 more schools were rated low.
The article mentions the other huge problem: safety.
3.)If you were a parent, on what specific criteria would you opt your child out of DPS?
That would be the same criteria that makes me opt out of the public school district my kids live in and don't attend: performance and cost. Is the cost of sending my kids to private school worth it? I think it is and I have voted with my wallet.
I had a conversation just yesterday with a guy who was making a similar decision, but it didn't involve Cleveland public schools (the district that he lives in). His kids already attend a Catholic school and he was pondering whether he should move to a suburb with a good school district to avoid paying that tuition. Of course, housing is more expensive out there, so he was weighing the costs versus the benefits. This is the same as what is going on in Denver: everyone measures what is the ideal result versus what they can afford.
The mayor of Denver answers this question:
4.)Will our national cohesiveness suffer if middle class and affluent students separate themselves from the poor and largely minority population of DPS and other districts around the nation?
National cohesiveness? I don't think there has ever been any kind of national cohesiveness between the haves and the have-nots in education. You fail to mention that immigration is a big issue in Denver, where (according to the district superintendent) 14,000 kids are "English learners". That shows you that within the school there is no cohesiveness. If 1/4 of the students are not fluent in English, how can they form a cohesive unit with others?
Homogeneousness is an overlooked advantage. People really do want to be around people that are like them. They are uncomfortable with people whom they perceive as "different". It may not sound nice, but it is a fact of life. Differences can be appearance, behavior, cultural norms or language. A language barrier (which apparently Denver has a large problem with) is a glaring example of people that are different. The difficult part is that unlike appearance (for example) it is very hard to focus on commonalities when you cannot communicate effectively with the other person. This leads to cliques forming around languages, which leads to misunderstandings, which leads to alienation, which leads to friction, which leads to people not being happy around the other parties. Given an opportunity, you will want to be away from that situation. Unhappy or uncomfortable kids are not the best learners.
At work, they circulated an interesting article with a metaphor about life. Throughout your life, this paper said, you build a tribe. Your tribe is the group of people you associate with. People form bonds with other people that have common interests with them. They form connections with people who think like them and who act like them. The article was focused on examining those who are in your tribe and what you have in common. It urged the reader to focus on good relationships versus bad ones. My point is that people seek others that are like them.
For Denver, deconstructing the language barrier should be a top priority. Of course, American society in general has this same problem, which leads to many cultural, criminal and achievement issues.
First off, I don't think this is the real problem. Check out their attitude: we have an "x" number of student capacity--how do we fill it? Instead of fitting their capacity to their needs, they insist on trying to increase the need for their service. This isn't a chain store, it's a school district.
But to answer the question, they must offer a competitive product. In simple terms, they must offer a quality education. Flight from urban school districts is not limited to Denver, it is nationwide. More affluent people are fleeing the city schools to either the suburbs (most common) or the private schools. Both of these options offer (in the minds of the parents) a higher quality school "product". Families are acting out a vote of no confidence by voting with their feet (or moving vans).
I find it both sad and funny that the district is promoting its "International Academy" and other magnet schools. How about teaching the kids how to read, you fools.
2.)Why does DPS have this problem?
Poor performance. In 2001, Denver had 21 of the states 28 worst schools, according to the state board of education. They were rated "unsatisfactory". In addition, 74 more schools were rated low.
The article mentions the other huge problem: safety.
QUOTE
An estimated 15,700 students bypassed Denver Public Schools last year in favor of private or suburban schools they see as safer or academically superior.
3.)If you were a parent, on what specific criteria would you opt your child out of DPS?
That would be the same criteria that makes me opt out of the public school district my kids live in and don't attend: performance and cost. Is the cost of sending my kids to private school worth it? I think it is and I have voted with my wallet.
I had a conversation just yesterday with a guy who was making a similar decision, but it didn't involve Cleveland public schools (the district that he lives in). His kids already attend a Catholic school and he was pondering whether he should move to a suburb with a good school district to avoid paying that tuition. Of course, housing is more expensive out there, so he was weighing the costs versus the benefits. This is the same as what is going on in Denver: everyone measures what is the ideal result versus what they can afford.
The mayor of Denver answers this question:
QUOTE
Even the mayor and his wife, Helen Thorpe, are studying school choices to decide where to send their 4-year-old son, Teddy.
"Let me guarantee that my wife, like every wife and every father, is all over that," Hickenlooper said. "To her whether a school is a charter school, a public school or a neighborhood private school, she's going to pick the school that's best. She doesn't care who the mayor is."
"Let me guarantee that my wife, like every wife and every father, is all over that," Hickenlooper said. "To her whether a school is a charter school, a public school or a neighborhood private school, she's going to pick the school that's best. She doesn't care who the mayor is."
4.)Will our national cohesiveness suffer if middle class and affluent students separate themselves from the poor and largely minority population of DPS and other districts around the nation?
National cohesiveness? I don't think there has ever been any kind of national cohesiveness between the haves and the have-nots in education. You fail to mention that immigration is a big issue in Denver, where (according to the district superintendent) 14,000 kids are "English learners". That shows you that within the school there is no cohesiveness. If 1/4 of the students are not fluent in English, how can they form a cohesive unit with others?
Homogeneousness is an overlooked advantage. People really do want to be around people that are like them. They are uncomfortable with people whom they perceive as "different". It may not sound nice, but it is a fact of life. Differences can be appearance, behavior, cultural norms or language. A language barrier (which apparently Denver has a large problem with) is a glaring example of people that are different. The difficult part is that unlike appearance (for example) it is very hard to focus on commonalities when you cannot communicate effectively with the other person. This leads to cliques forming around languages, which leads to misunderstandings, which leads to alienation, which leads to friction, which leads to people not being happy around the other parties. Given an opportunity, you will want to be away from that situation. Unhappy or uncomfortable kids are not the best learners.
At work, they circulated an interesting article with a metaphor about life. Throughout your life, this paper said, you build a tribe. Your tribe is the group of people you associate with. People form bonds with other people that have common interests with them. They form connections with people who think like them and who act like them. The article was focused on examining those who are in your tribe and what you have in common. It urged the reader to focus on good relationships versus bad ones. My point is that people seek others that are like them.
For Denver, deconstructing the language barrier should be a top priority. Of course, American society in general has this same problem, which leads to many cultural, criminal and achievement issues.
Why does DPS have this problem?
I read an article today dealing with school vouchers. Gov. Strickland wants to stop the voluntary program. The state held a public hearing on the pros and cons. I wish I had the paper to quote directly from, but this is what I walked away with reading the article: as more and more parents pull their kids out of public schools for a private education, private schools are going to look, not to mention function, less like private schools and more like public schools. This is will hold true even if private schools only accept A and B students. (Sadly the article failed to make the ironic observation that the failing public school system is dashing expectations by producing A and B students.)
Parents are jockeying for limited resources. What parents really want is access to the smaller classrooms private education provides, and public education can’t fund. At some point the scales will balance, maybe even tip in favor of public schools, and the trend will reverse.
I read an article today dealing with school vouchers. Gov. Strickland wants to stop the voluntary program. The state held a public hearing on the pros and cons. I wish I had the paper to quote directly from, but this is what I walked away with reading the article: as more and more parents pull their kids out of public schools for a private education, private schools are going to look, not to mention function, less like private schools and more like public schools. This is will hold true even if private schools only accept A and B students. (Sadly the article failed to make the ironic observation that the failing public school system is dashing expectations by producing A and B students.)
Parents are jockeying for limited resources. What parents really want is access to the smaller classrooms private education provides, and public education can’t fund. At some point the scales will balance, maybe even tip in favor of public schools, and the trend will reverse.
Hm...As a Denver "native" (OK, so originally I was born in CA, but I've spent my formative years in CO), I was initially going to blame CSAP and the wrong-headed No Child Left Behind Act. Because so many schools in Denver are ranked poorly, their funding is cut, which makes it even more difficult for them to reach the standards that other (wealthier) school districts have already reached. The effects of CSAP are not only seen in Denver County, but in other (poorer) counties as well, such as Adams.
However, I decided to strike that idea when I went over my own public school experiences in Denver. I remember when I was going to start high school, in 1995 (this means before CSAP and NCLB). The closest high school was in Denver Country (walking distance!); however, it is one of the lowest ranking high schools in the county. It was also deemed rather dangerous; my friends in middle school would joke about how "gangster" it was. Therefore, I was sent to a school a few miles away, in Jefferson County. My high school was situated between Columbine High (which continues to be a very well-regarded school in terms of academics) and a private Catholic high school; therefore, it tried to compete with these two schools by offering certain programs to attract more students. The school was small, and lacked proper funding (as all schools), but it made an effort.
I dont know exactly what all this means. I am not at all advocating for vouchers, or running a school like a business. Mostly, I wanted to demonstrate that DPS's reputation has not really faltered for at least 10 years...It's always been bad, and it's always been underfunded.
I can't speak for other areas of Denver, but the area my would-have-been high school is located is fairly low-middle class. There are large enclaves of Latinos and Asians (mostly Vietnamese, but some Korean and Chinese also) in the area. This results in two things: 1) low funding, due to low property taxes 2) strains on teaching kids who may not be perfect at English...which of course, brings up a whole different issue of bilingual education. Even if DPS wanted to implement a standard program (which it has not, as far as I know...), it does not have the money. I worked in a high school (in Adams country) where a quarter of the school's student population were native Spanish speakers, and it's a constant struggle...There are dedicated teachers, but many of them do not have the training, or resources to properly educate non-native speakers. The school I worked at had a few teachers that were fluent in Spanish, which is great; however, it was not enough to really help the students make a fluid transition.
I dont really know what Im trying to say. I just wanted to share my thoughts. And yes, I still sort of blame CSAP. But the problems are bigger in scale.
However, I decided to strike that idea when I went over my own public school experiences in Denver. I remember when I was going to start high school, in 1995 (this means before CSAP and NCLB). The closest high school was in Denver Country (walking distance!); however, it is one of the lowest ranking high schools in the county. It was also deemed rather dangerous; my friends in middle school would joke about how "gangster" it was. Therefore, I was sent to a school a few miles away, in Jefferson County. My high school was situated between Columbine High (which continues to be a very well-regarded school in terms of academics) and a private Catholic high school; therefore, it tried to compete with these two schools by offering certain programs to attract more students. The school was small, and lacked proper funding (as all schools), but it made an effort.
I dont know exactly what all this means. I am not at all advocating for vouchers, or running a school like a business. Mostly, I wanted to demonstrate that DPS's reputation has not really faltered for at least 10 years...It's always been bad, and it's always been underfunded.
I can't speak for other areas of Denver, but the area my would-have-been high school is located is fairly low-middle class. There are large enclaves of Latinos and Asians (mostly Vietnamese, but some Korean and Chinese also) in the area. This results in two things: 1) low funding, due to low property taxes 2) strains on teaching kids who may not be perfect at English...which of course, brings up a whole different issue of bilingual education. Even if DPS wanted to implement a standard program (which it has not, as far as I know...), it does not have the money. I worked in a high school (in Adams country) where a quarter of the school's student population were native Spanish speakers, and it's a constant struggle...There are dedicated teachers, but many of them do not have the training, or resources to properly educate non-native speakers. The school I worked at had a few teachers that were fluent in Spanish, which is great; however, it was not enough to really help the students make a fluid transition.
I dont really know what Im trying to say. I just wanted to share my thoughts. And yes, I still sort of blame CSAP. But the problems are bigger in scale.
QUOTE(kimpossible @ Apr 16 2007, 07:28 PM)
However, I decided to strike that idea when I went over my own public school experiences in Denver. I remember when I was going to start high school, in 1995 (this means before CSAP and NCLB). The closest high school was in Denver Country (walking distance!); however, it is one of the lowest ranking high schools in the county. It was also deemed rather dangerous; my friends in middle school would joke about how "gangster" it was. Therefore, I was sent to a school a few miles away, in Jefferson County. My high school was situated between Columbine High (which continues to be a very well-regarded school in terms of academics) and a private Catholic high school; therefore, it tried to compete with these two schools by offering certain programs to attract more students. The school was small, and lacked proper funding (as all schools), but it made an effort.
Interesting. You chose another school. You (or your parents) chose a school that better met your expectations. Maybe we should give all students this choice, and have the funding travel with the child, rather than fund the existing, underperforming schools and their existing structure and staff. Just a thought. In many places with strong public school systems and strong teacher unions, there is no choice whatsoever.
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