The European Space Agency and Russia are working together to simulate a voyage to Mars.

Link



One particular type of human being will be excluded from this simulation.

Link



To be debated:

1. Should women, if otherwise qualified, be allowed to volunteer for the simulated voyage to Mars?

2. Should women, if otherwise qualified, be allowed to participate in the first real voyage to Mars?

3. (Just for fun.) If you could get away from your other Earthly responsibilities, would you consider participating in a simulated voyage to Mars?

Link

1. Should women, if otherwise qualified, be allowed to volunteer for the simulated voyage to Mars?

2. Should women, if otherwise qualified, be allowed to participate in the first real voyage to Mars?

Odd questions Vicky. Surely this is a simple matter of logistical and technical expertise as opposed to any personal considerations towards gender politics. No one knows more about prolonged exposure to the space enviornment than the Russians. They may be regarded as a joke in the USA, but the truth is, the Soviet Union easily out performed the USA when it came to long term space habitation and the closest the Americans ever came to Russian experience was from astronauts like Shannon Lucid, who still holds the record for longest period of habitation in space by a woman. The irony is that Lucid only holds that record because she wa son board a Soviet built space station.

Thus, if the Russian perspective is that the crew needs to be all male, then I cannot see how any one unqualified can make generalized accusations of sexism. 500 days in a capsule headed towards Mars is a very tough situation to be in. It would drive me bonkers.


3. (Just for fun.) If you could get away from your other Earthly responsibilities, would you consider participating in a simulated voyage to Mars?

No. Life is to short to spend 500 days in a steel tube so scientists can watch me go nuts.

I'm an odd person.



Is it? One has to wonder what the logistical and technical factors might be. Given the comments from Professor Grigoryev, I have to wonder if the real reason is that women are seen as "fragile and delicate." This strikes me as odd. Surely any woman who is qualified to be a cosmonaut (a small percentage of the female population, to be sure) is hardly likely to be "fragile and delicate."

I'd like to know what official reasons there are for making this project -- full of volunteers, who need not be quite so physically fit as "real" cosmonauts -- an all-male one. The only reason that comes to mind is to avoid sexual tension among the crew. (I hope these men are all firmly heterosexual, even when isolated from women for more than a year.) Such a problem could be avoided with a crew consisting entirely of firmly heterosexual women, but such a thing would be dismissed as a gimmick, and widely mocked. A crew consisting entirely of men, on the other hand, seems "normal."

Perhaps I am simply naive, but it seems to me that a crew of women and men, carefully selected for professionalism and psychological stability, and provided with a reasonable amount of privacy in what is admittedly an unusual and very limited envrionment, could work together without problems developing.



I certainly agree that the Soviets/Russians have made impressive advances in space exploration. (If only they had used their tremendous organizational abilities for this purpose alone, and not for the purposes of the arms race and the oppression of their own people; you and I might be having this conversation on the Moon.) I'm not saying that the Russians are anything less than expert in this field. I am suggesting that their society may not be quite as socially advanced as some others when it comes to accepting women in nontraditional roles. (Not always, of course; I am certainly not forgetting the historic voyage of Valentina Vladimirovna Tereshkova. But it took two decades before the USSR was ready to send another woman into space, and by that time the USA was also ready to do so.) Societies are different (would a Saudi spacecraft contain any female astronauts?), and much of the Soviet claim to have gender equality was propaganda, designed to promote the idea of how progressive life under Communism was. Now that the USSR has collapsed, I wonder if they even have any reason to pretend to egalitarianism.

The example of Shannon Lucid is proof that men and women can work together in very enclosed conditions for an extended period of time without problems.



Well, I don't make generalized accusations of sexism about anybody. I do have to wonder about societies, though, and whether they are ready to see women in nontraditional roles. Perhaps I am overly sensitive to this issue.

But why must the crew be all male? Surely the vast majority of men are not qualified for such a effort, and those who would not go bonkers will be accepted. Are there not women who are just as qualified?

Even in the corniest sci-fi movies from the 1950's, women and men served together in space voyages . . .



I have sometimes fantasized about such a thing, but I lack the courage and patience required. For those brave women and men who will do so, I wish them the best of luck.

Ad Astra Per Aspera!

Moif, while I'm sure that this fellow is an expert, I don't see how you can view his statement ("women are fragile and delicate creatures; that is why men should lead the way to distant planets and carry women there in their strong hands") as anything but sexist. I mean, where's the science behind that statement? Because this guy is a space expert, this statement is suddenly valid?

If he had said, "black men are fragile and delicate creatures; that is why white men should lead the way to distant planets and carry women there in their strong hands," would you still bow to his supposed authority on the matter? What if he had said that Europeans were fragile and delicate, and that only Russian men could carry the weak little Europeans to distant planets?

I mean, I could understand - maybe - if he had given some scientific statement about the effects of prolonged space journeys on women's bones or something, that we might bow to the Russian's expertise in this matter. But he didn't say that. He didn't provide any science, he just said that women were fragile and delicate creatures.

1. Should women, if otherwise qualified, be allowed to volunteer for the simulated voyage to Mars?

2. Should women, if otherwise qualified, be allowed to participate in the first real voyage to Mars?

Of course.


3. (Just for fun.) If you could get away from your other Earthly responsibilities, would you consider participating in a simulated voyage to Mars?

Hmmm... if I could have my instruments and studio with me, yes, I think I would. If I didn't have a family I'd probably be ideal for this sort of thing; I'm a very self-contained, hermit sort-of guy. A pile of books and a guitar and I'd be happy.

Vicky,

I don't know if you recall it, but I once made the argument that the first human being to set foot on Mars ought to be a woman since the first foot on the moon was male. I still believe that. Personally I see no valid reason why an all female team couldn't go to Mars, except one: practicality.


Yeah, thats just another reason to be your friend


&Well, I'm kind of assuming that this is Grigoryev's own interpretation of an official position and that the official position has more to do with experience than sexism.

Of course, its possible that the experience gained by the Soviets was itself a product of a sexist attitude, that is almost probable give the Russian reputation, but I don't feel qualified to say one way or the other. I've been a big fan of Russian space tech for years and I've never seen much to suggest that the all male attitude of the Russian/Soviet space programmes was sexist as opposed to adopting the simplest (most practical) solution which is often the foundation of all Soviet/Russian technology.


I would imagine the Russians feel there is no need to experiment with women if they cannot imagine sending women to Mars. Personally I'd run three such tests. One with all males, one with all females and one with a mixed crew of 'consenting adults'. I have a feeling though (based on the story of the women trained by NASA back in the day) that women perform better in tests but men perform better in reality.

I can also imagine its because men do not trust women.


Shannon Lucid proved that, yes. But Lucid is also exceptional. Valentina Tereshkova by comparison was a media stunt and almost a liability: she was merely a passenger and never allowed to take control of the vehicle by Sergei Korolev due to her eratic behaviour during the mission.

This is sor tof what I'm talking about. I'm not suggesting all women would be as Tereshkova was, but that a manned mission to Mars is probably the most ambitious and dangerous mission ever undertaken and considerations of sexual politics may be given a back seat to efficiency and practicality by the Russians. If there was some precedent beyond Lucid that showed well trained women were capable of this type of mission (and I'm personally sure they must be) than I cannot see how the Russians could object on valid grounds. As it is however, the level of experience with men in long term space habitation far out weighs the experience of women in such condistions. The USA has no such experience (except Lucids stay on Mir) and the Russians have very little.


Really? From what I've heard of mixed crews on long submarine dives (another field in which the Russians are experts) the opposite is true. The stress of living together for so long in close quarters is such that pregnancy is often the outcome. No doubt a pregnancy would not happen on board a mission to Mars, but the stress that leads to these situations would be.



The vast majority of humanity would be basket cases upon their return I suspect. I do not believe an all male crew is absolutely essential to the success of such a mission, I merely propose the Russians believe an all male crew has a greater chance of success.

They may be wrong, but who can prove it?



Yes... They also have mind probes, giant ants and tinfoil space suits...

Hmmm, I have travelled to Russia for business, what, oh, 4 times now, and women are really running the show over there, much different than here.

There is a saying in Russia "in 1917 (the revolution) we (women) aquired all rights- and we have been trying to give them back every since" -

I always thought it quite odd for me, a society that was so overwhelmingly macho, while putting women in all (formely) male dominated positions, doctors, lawyers, cabinet level ministers, bank owers and officers etc.

So, while I don't doubt the quote, I doubt the translation a bit, Russian is a very flowery language, and quite easy to lose the meaning in translation, or translates badly, no matter how you slice it.

If you are anywhere around the space industry- which is one of thier biggest, if not THE biggest, cash cow's in Russia, and, from what I have seen, there are women working in every aspect BUT the most dirty and dangerous jobs- foundry work, I never saw a women doing foundry work- but you go the office- the women engineers probably outnumber the men 5 to 1.

If I could, I would like to read the original Russian on this one, I have heard Russian men say this before, and then, switch 180* in thier statements and hire a woman for the position he said was only for men.

So, to Vick's questions- I bet there are women on the first Russian mission to mars- no matter what they say.

Scientists really know no gender in ambition and drive in thier field- if a woman really wants to go in Russia- I have no doubt if she is qualified, she will go, no matter what the statements now.

The only reasoning I can see, (QH- once again, this may be "lost in translation") - would be bone density issues.

Women already have bone density issues on earth, much less in space- same as men, only worse.

You don't hear too much about Osteoporosis in middle aged men (though you do much later in life for men) - but I do recognize that Osteoporosis and Estrogen go hand in hand- and bone density/muscle atrophy is the #1 challenge in long space flights for the physiology of the cosmonauts (and all the other countries counterparts)

So this very well may be what he is speaking on, without seeing the whole comment, in Russian.

Oh, and BTW- I have read the Mars trilogy by Kim Stanely Robison (Red mars, Blue mars, Green Mars) at least 10 times now, and it has been my dream to visit that planet- with the biggest mountain, the largest craters, the deepest canyons in the entire solar system- my entire life. I have always told my kids that since they speak four languages as a native speaker- that they will be the brother-sister co-team that lands on mars first, if not first, than the first 100!~

I would give just about anything to make that trip!

1. Should women, if otherwise qualified, be allowed to volunteer for the simulated voyage to Mars?

Sure, but my gut sense is that their performance will be less than that of the men.

2. Should women, if otherwise qualified, be allowed to participate in the first real voyage to Mars? If otherwise qualified is the kicker. No matter how much feminists like to dance around the issue when it fails to serve their purpose, women have different physiology and neurology than men. Women also have different social patterns than men. Is it possible to find a woman where these differences won't come into play? Probably, but such a woman would be an "odd duck" indeed. Unfortunately for women collectively in this case, such an "odd duck" is also quite likely to have a raft of baggage. A 500 day very high risk mission is, simply put, not a place to be catering to politically correct sensibilities. The task of the mission organizers is to reduce risk, not increase it.

I do like the idea of the triple experimental simulation, as it can give us some more practical insight into the subject. Once again, it is unfortunate for women, but there is a huge "inventory" of all-male long term exploratory missions wherein the sociological dynamics are fairly well understood, in contrast to much more limited experience with isolated mixed or all female micro-societies engaging in high risk undertakings. Women may be as capable or more capable in such circumstances, but there is no proof of it. No proof = increased risk to the mission.

3. (Just for fun.) If you could get away from your other Earthly responsibilities, would you consider participating in a simulated voyage to Mars?
maybe, but probably not.

"One particular type of human being will be excluded from this simulation.
Link"

Actually there is another "type of human being" excluded: AMERICANS! More specifically, U.S. Citizens. They allow people from Canada but not the U.S. . Not really too surprising since the French are heading the European Space Agency.

My answer to all three is yes, Mars will need women as well as men. Its kind of awkward for many to take such a topic seriously though. Many look at space travel as a waste of resources unfortunately. Just like the earliest pioneers to sail across the sea to America, it took a while for people to realize the benefit of such risky sea journeys into the unknown. Today space is like the oceans of our forefathers, and who knows what benefits will await us this time. Its unfortunate things are moving as slowly as they are but one thing I believe is for certain. If man kind isn't blasted away by an asteroid or becomes extinct another way relatively soon we are going to out live this planet, I'm confident of that. This is why I believe this, life throughout history has had one apparent goal, whether one believes in God or not, and that goal has been to evolve into increasingly complex organisms that can survive in increasingly difficult environments.

There was a time when life was believed to exist exclusively in our oceans, but over time life found a way to evolve onto the land. The earliest plants to grow on the earths surface were various bacteria and rootless plants, then came things like ferns and mosses and wingless insects, very slowly the oxygen levels on the surface of the planet increased and a source of food was in place for life to explode on the surface throughout the Devonian period. In a sense the earliest lifeforms were a link that set the stage for more complex lifeforms to thrive on the surface, the plants made oxygen while providing a source for food, and before long there was an ecosystem on the surface of the planet that rivaled that of the oceans ecosystem.

Point and relevance of that story is that I believe today the human race to be the crucial link that will prepare life for its next bold step, this onto not only Mars but endless other worlds as well. Call it our fate, genius mother nature, or Gods will, whatever it is, it makes sense. We are the only species on the planet with the potential to spread life off this planet and continue the cycle that began eons ago. It has been a tough ride so far and man kind has done more as of now to hurt earths ecosystem than to help it, but I believe we are here for a reason and this will change. We will go from being the thorn in earths side to the species that allowed earths ecosystem to outlast earth itself ! This will be a journey that includes not only man and women but eventually any other species that can survive wherever it is we may be headed. In the case for Mars, I believe we will probably end up terraforming it and introducing earth life their very slowly as Mars becomes more and more habitable. I don't see why women could not be members of a first mission to Mars either come to think of it, as for me I'd jump at the chance of seeing another world. I think it would be more than exciting.

Its worth adding that since I wrote my post, Sunita Williams has broken Shannon Lucid's record, having now spent a total of 195 days in space, without once ever having been raped. It seems the Americans have demonstrated their cultural superiority by practical means. If American women can survive and co-exist for so long in space along side men, and in the case of Lucid along side Russian men, then there is no sensible argment to prohibit them from participating in a manned mission to Mars.

I don't think its biased to point out that men can sustain greater levels of physical exertion for longer periods. Recent developments in Danish military studies confirm this with female soldiers being found to suffer more strains and injuries than male sodlers leading to a higher female opt out rate from strenuous detail, but at the same time, Lucid and Williams show that women can 'cut it' if they are given the chance.

Having read further on the Russian space programs attitudes towards women since I last participated in this debate, I withdraw my argument that the Russian perspective was probably grounded in practicality. I have encountered too many stories now of women being treated like dirt by the Russians to continue to entertain the notion that the Russian are anything but chauvanists in this matter.