I'm not really sure where to put this, so general Social is the landing zone.

"The F-Word" (aka &#!@) and "The N-Word" (aka "nigger") have become substitutes for their respective expletive and perjorative terms. I am curious as to how George Carlin would rewrite Seven Words Dirty Words in light of the new socially/culturally censored words.

Questions for Debate:

1) Do you think that perjorative terms such as "nigger", "cracker", "retard", "geek", "faggot", "breeder" and the scores of others are on the same level as vulgar expletives?

2) Do you think any words should get the "X-Word" treatment?

3) Do you think Carlin would include "nigger" in a rewrite?

1) Do you think that perjorative terms such as "nigger", "cracker", "retard", "geek", "faggot", "breeder" and the scores of others are on the same level as vulgar expletives?

The examples given have different impacts. Geek is both a term of endearment and an insult, depending on who's using it. Same goes for nigger. Retard doesn't have any endearment quality, except in a joking situation. Faggot has no redeaming qualities, except it can also mean a bundle of sticks. I'm not sure what breeder is supposed to mean. Is that a woman who has children? I guess it might also mean that having children is all the woman can do. Cracker has about as much impact as hillbilly, which is not much.

Attitude, inflection and context are all important. For example, this clause:

you certainly are a work of art

Depending on inflection, attitude and context, the clause could be negative or positive:

YOU certainly are a WORK of art -- negative
you certainly ARE a work of ART -- positive

One of Carlin's main points about the F-word is that it has many uses in the English language. Other comics have expanded the idea.

2) Do you think any words should get the "X-Word" treatment?

I think words are powerful little creatures in human communication. How they are treated depends on what message is trying to be transmitted or what kind of response is desired. I'd not use any of the example words during a job interview. I might use some of them in casual confabs, but probably not. I know better ones.

I hardly use the F-word any longer, mostly for expressing disgust with a situation. Also the S-word, same context, often right after and in sequence, like: Holy F-word S-word. F-word, S-word. S-word, S-word, S-sord, F-word it. F-word me. F-word you. S-word. F-word it all to hell, F-wording morons.

3) Do you think Carlin would include "nigger" in a rewrite?

I saw Carlin last year, and he's writing all new material. We were treated to some of the new stuff, so new that he hadn't memorized the bits and jokes yet. He's still on the strange-way-we-think-and-speak schtick, so maybe he'll do something about the use of this term. I doubt it though. Seems everyone else is trying to pull mileage from it. I liked what the Daily Show did with the English and Black correspondents, where every time the English guy needed to say the word, he'd nudge the Black guy to say it for him.

That was perfect and would be hard to top.

1) Do you think that perjorative terms such as "nigger", "cracker", "retard", "geek", "faggot", "breeder" and the scores of others are on the same level as vulgar expletives?
I'd say any slur intended to belittle and dehumanize people is far worse than any expletive.

2) Do you think any words should get the "X-Word" treatment?
I think anyone with a modicum of human decency doesn't use certain words, if that's what you mean.

3) Do you think Carlin would include "nigger" in a rewrite?
No. That word was certainly considered impolite when he did the original routine- it wasn't included for the simple reason that it contradicts his premise that words are harmless. Dehumanizing words lead to inhuman actions.

Do you think that perjorative terms such as "nigger", "cracker", "retard", "geek", "faggot", "breeder" and the scores of others are on the same level as vulgar expletives?

I would agree with Grendel that personal slurs are intended to dehumanize and objectify groups and individual and are, therefore, more harmful than mere expletives. That, to me, would place them on a lower level.

Do you think any words should get the "X-Word" treatment?

No. "X-words" should be avoided and, when they must be used (when quoting someone, for example), should simply be used. Referring to them by abbreviations just gives them more power.

Do you think Carlin would include "nigger" in a rewrite?

As Carlin's sketch was entitled "The Seven Words You Can't Say on Television", obviously not.

actually the word of endearment is nigguh,/niggah. there is no R on it. I'm pretty pasty, and I use the term when I talk to my cousins, both of whom use the word. (both of whom are chiconkies (white/mexican mix))

but we're not talking about terms of endearment, we're talking words used to get an emotional rise out of someone. on that note, yes words like "nigger" or "faggot" are on the same level, if not worse, then vulger words like the F bomb.

no words should get the "x word treatment" for reasons wertz explains well.

I dont know if carlin would rewrite his sketch. he may need to write a new one for these words all together.

1) Do you think that perjorative terms such as "nigger", "cracker", "retard", "geek", "faggot", "breeder" and the scores of others are on the same level as vulgar expletives?

Well, first of all let me say that the word "geek" doesn't really belong on the list. Sure, it can be used as an insult, like "nerd," but it is often used just to mean somebody who is strongly into certain interests -- a computer geek, a movie geek, a comic book geek, and so on. Many people use this term about themselves without any irony. I don't think anybody uses the other words about themselves without irony.

"Breeder" is a little odd. I rarely hear it or read it, but it seems to mean either "heterosexual" (although that's kind of silly, since many heterosexuals do not breed and many gays do) or anybody with biological children (used by the voluntarily child-free.) In both senses, it's insulting, so it's best to avoid it.

The other terms are all clearly insulting, and should be avoided except, as in this debate, when we are discussing the terms themselves. Let me make it clear here that when I say "should," I am only talking about people voluntary watching their language; I would not make it mandatory. More on that later.

Are they on the same "level" as the "vulgar expletives?" Well, I guess that depends on what you mean. In polite company, any use of these words (unless, perhaps, we are discussing the words themselves) will tend to be frowned upon. Their use on the public airwaves, and in many publications, will tend to draw protests. Used in adult situations -- stand-up comedy, R-rated movies, mature novels -- they will not be so taboo.

The "vulgar" terms seem to be more problematic, for various cultural reasons. Their use here, for example, will be censored by our hosts, even if we are just discussing them as words. Used by impassioned lovers, they may be terms used to express love and joy. Language is funny, isn't it?

Personally, I very rarely use either "vulgar" terms or insulting terms in my own speech. I have used both in fiction, when I thought it was appropriate. Context is everything.

2) Do you think any words should get the "X-Word" treatment?

I'm not 100% sure what you mean. I would say that, like "vulgar" terms, they are rarely appropriate for young children, and that they should not be censored for adults. Obviously, if I do not like the way that someone uses them, I have the right to peacefully protest such use. (Boycotts and such.) I am not going to demand that a "shock jock" be fired, or that "gangsta rap" be banned, but I may speak out against both and not purchase such forms of entertainment. Again, context is everything. It's foolish to keep middle school students from reading Huckleberry Finn because they will be exposed to the term "nigger."

3) Do you think Carlin would include "nigger" in a rewrite?

Sure. He is certainly not "politically correct" in any way, and delights in using "shocking" words in a mocking way. This is nothing new. Lenny Bruce did a pretty famous routine using this word.




(Ironically, I had to censor this routine to follow the standards of this forum.)

1. Most of these words are distinctly American English usages, and so mean little this side of the pond. "Nigger" is the obvious exception.

Like Wertz I think "nigger" is far worse than the "f-word" and it's expletive brethren. Along with it's common UK equivalent of "Paki", which has similar pejorative overtones (it is no longer simply an innocent abbreviation of Pakistan here).

In our more liberal TV culture, it is beomcing increasingly likely that adult dramas (those shown after the 9pm "watershed" after which it is assumed younger children will be in bed) will use the f-word, albeit sparingly, and even the (un)holiest of (un)holies, the "c-word" though rather more sparinginly. And sometimes by a sympathetic or "hero" character, though not often (for the (U)H of (U)H).

At the same time, the "n-word" is increasingly only used in British-made dramas that are specifically concerned with race, and usually only by the "baddies". Social surveys here show that traditional swearing (US translation - curse-words) is losing the power to shock, while racially-based epithets are seen as increasingly offensive.

Which raises a cheer from me. The sooner that use of "the n-word" is as shocking as "the c-word", and is publicly acceptable in as few circumstances (an analogous political/comedic "reclamation" by black people to the c-word sketch in The Vagina Monologues when recited by a woman - fine. Most other uses, not fine.)

2. Only in situations, like here on , where the central principle of profanity avoidance is pas devant les enfants

3. Who's George Carlin?

Context is always a part of the meaning of a word. Perhaps a version of Justice Potter Stewart's bon mot, "I know it when I see it" would be appropriate here.
Admittedly, it is hard to imagine any of those words finding a better context than, "shockingly stupid".

Hmmm, words are powerful, very, very powerful. The pen is truly mightier than the sword- look at how much we debate every word our founding fathers have ever written

There is NO word with the negative power of "nigger"- it is impossible for a white person to even fathom how much impact it can have- and why, as white poeple, we know it has impact, and we are a bit sheepish to even TYPE it- but we still don't know it's impact like a black person in America would.

I would say there is no vulgar word MORE vulgar than "nigger". I think I would back hand one of my kids if they used this word- if they drop the "f-bomb"- there would be some issue with that- but not for the racial crap.

"Breeder"- gays call us hetero's this word as an insult- it just doesn't have any impact though, not really. Won't punch someone in the face for it anyway.

Retard, geek, cracker, even "faggot"- these just won't start a fist fight in most folks- faggot is falling out of the insult genre' from what I have experianced, and "gay" is morphing into something other than a slur towards homosexuals.

But go throwing around the "N" word, well, that might get you into a tad bit of violence?

So I would put "Nigger" on the top wrung of expletives, possibly the worst, even above the F-bomb.

2) The "X" words you are using are not the same as the seven dirty words- those words are kinda silly in context, as Goerge Carlin's genius has pointed out- the racial slurs, on the other hand, are not so silly, and have connotations of impending genocide if left unchecked.

3) I bet he never will. The seven dirty words are ridiculous when put in the Goerge Carlin light, along with the hundreds of others he came up with- but racial slurs are boardering on Nazi-like behavior- where you denigrate the entire race in order to dehumanize and kill them.