Full Version: At Least 5 Arrested in Alleged Fort Dix Murder Plot
QUOTE
MOUNT LAUREL, N.J. — At least five people were arrested on charges they plotted to attack the Fort Dix Army base and "kill as many soldiers as possible," federal authorities said Tuesday.
The suspects were scheduled to appear in U.S. District Court in Camden later Tuesday to face charges of conspiracy to kill U.S. servicemen, said Michael Drewniak, a spokesman for the U.S. Attorney's Office in New Jersey.
Five of them lived in Cherry Hill, about 10 miles east of Philadelphia and 20 miles southwest of Fort Dix, he said.
"They were planning an attack on Fort Dix in which they would kill as many soldiers as possible," Drewniak said.
The suspects were described as "Islamic radicals" by Greg Reinert, a spokesman for the United States Attorney's Office. A law enforcement source told FOX News that all of the suspects are recent converts and were not born Muslims.
The source told FOX News that there were between five and six arrests; the exact number is unclear.
(http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,270601,00.html)
...
The Star-Ledger of Newark reported on its Web site that the men had agreed to buy AK-47 assault rifles from an arms dealer who was secretly cooperating with the FBI. It cited a law enforcement person who spoke on condition of anonymity because the source was not authorized to speak about the arrests.
The suspects were scheduled to appear in U.S. District Court in Camden later Tuesday to face charges of conspiracy to kill U.S. servicemen, said Michael Drewniak, a spokesman for the U.S. Attorney's Office in New Jersey.
Five of them lived in Cherry Hill, about 10 miles east of Philadelphia and 20 miles southwest of Fort Dix, he said.
"They were planning an attack on Fort Dix in which they would kill as many soldiers as possible," Drewniak said.
The suspects were described as "Islamic radicals" by Greg Reinert, a spokesman for the United States Attorney's Office. A law enforcement source told FOX News that all of the suspects are recent converts and were not born Muslims.
The source told FOX News that there were between five and six arrests; the exact number is unclear.
(http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,270601,00.html)
...
The Star-Ledger of Newark reported on its Web site that the men had agreed to buy AK-47 assault rifles from an arms dealer who was secretly cooperating with the FBI. It cited a law enforcement person who spoke on condition of anonymity because the source was not authorized to speak about the arrests.
Ok. It's 100% apparent that the threat is still real, even on American soil.
These guys were picked up as a result of a local and federal joint investigation.
Questions for debate:
1. Do you think that the investigation could've been successful due to the work of homeland security-related work?
2. What if the terrorists civil liberties were violated in the investigation (obviously hypothetical), should they be let go?
3. If found guilty, what should be done with these terrorists? Prison? Death penalty? Deportation?
1. Do you think that the investigation could've been successful due to the work of homeland security-related work?
Since homeland security is not capitalized, I do believe that the term "police work" can safely be substituted, as this is more accurate. Under Homeland Security, wire taps are easier to do, so maybe that was part of the investigation. Nobody's saying. However, the AK-47 sting operation seems to be the thing that worked very well, and that type of police work was going on long before 9/11 and the subsequent Homeland Security Act.
2. What if the terrorists civil liberties were violated in the investigation (obviously hypothetical), should they be let go?
Hopefully the police in this situation have done a good job of supporting the DA's office. By rule of law, if this is a sloppy investigation, the alleged murderers have to be let go. That's how our system works, or is supposed to. But then with the Homeland Security Act, they might end up at Getmo.
Some of the perps are in this country illegally. That will stick no matter what.
3. If found guilty, what should be done with these terrorists? Prison? Death penalty? Deportation?
Life in prison is cheaper than the death penalty, so I'm for that. It's also in line with the idea that we're not supposed to murder each other.
Deportation might be in order, and then it's up to the home country to figure out what to do with them. If it were up to me, I'd have them be practice models for the soldiers of Ft. Dix to use when training for hand-to-hand combat. Let's see how good these terrorist wannabees are without their AKs.
Anyway, this is the way to combat terrorism. Been saying that all along, so this success bolsters that idea. Had we done better police work before 9/11, that might have been avoided as well. Oh yeah, and better airport security. Should have known about that from all the previous hijackings and mid-air bombings.
Another clear message supporting police work over military assault for combating terrorism is the glaring truth in Iraq that the native police force has to control the internal terrorists of that country. There really is no other way to do it.
Since homeland security is not capitalized, I do believe that the term "police work" can safely be substituted, as this is more accurate. Under Homeland Security, wire taps are easier to do, so maybe that was part of the investigation. Nobody's saying. However, the AK-47 sting operation seems to be the thing that worked very well, and that type of police work was going on long before 9/11 and the subsequent Homeland Security Act.
2. What if the terrorists civil liberties were violated in the investigation (obviously hypothetical), should they be let go?
Hopefully the police in this situation have done a good job of supporting the DA's office. By rule of law, if this is a sloppy investigation, the alleged murderers have to be let go. That's how our system works, or is supposed to. But then with the Homeland Security Act, they might end up at Getmo.
Some of the perps are in this country illegally. That will stick no matter what.
3. If found guilty, what should be done with these terrorists? Prison? Death penalty? Deportation?
Life in prison is cheaper than the death penalty, so I'm for that. It's also in line with the idea that we're not supposed to murder each other.
Deportation might be in order, and then it's up to the home country to figure out what to do with them. If it were up to me, I'd have them be practice models for the soldiers of Ft. Dix to use when training for hand-to-hand combat. Let's see how good these terrorist wannabees are without their AKs.
Anyway, this is the way to combat terrorism. Been saying that all along, so this success bolsters that idea. Had we done better police work before 9/11, that might have been avoided as well. Oh yeah, and better airport security. Should have known about that from all the previous hijackings and mid-air bombings.
Another clear message supporting police work over military assault for combating terrorism is the glaring truth in Iraq that the native police force has to control the internal terrorists of that country. There really is no other way to do it.
I don't want to answer #3 yet because there's good reason not to. So many "terrorists" have turned out to be shoddy investigation work and/or alarmist reactions. However, for the time being...
Do you think that the investigation could've been successful due to the work of homeland security-related work?
The investigation got started thanks to a store employee whom—get this—was given a video by these guys to make copies for distribution. To quote Carlos Mencia, it seems we have a few "Dee dee-dees!"
What if the terrorists civil liberties were violated in the investigation (obviously hypothetical), should they be let go?
Yep. Not only did NSA letters and other illegal means fail to identify a threat, but the government got its hands on physical evidence. If we took investigative shortcuts to make the case more "solid" instead of trusting federal statute and juries, we deserve to have them loosed.
Do you think that the investigation could've been successful due to the work of homeland security-related work?
The investigation got started thanks to a store employee whom—get this—was given a video by these guys to make copies for distribution. To quote Carlos Mencia, it seems we have a few "Dee dee-dees!"
What if the terrorists civil liberties were violated in the investigation (obviously hypothetical), should they be let go?
Yep. Not only did NSA letters and other illegal means fail to identify a threat, but the government got its hands on physical evidence. If we took investigative shortcuts to make the case more "solid" instead of trusting federal statute and juries, we deserve to have them loosed.
QUOTE(aevans176 @ May 8 2007, 03:44 PM) 
Ok. It's 100% apparent that the threat is still real, even on American soil.
Welcome to the world.
Questions for debate:
1. Do you think that the investigation could've been successful due to the work of homeland security-related work?
Almost certainly, although I'm not really sure what you're getting at with this question.
2. What if the terrorists civil liberties were violated in the investigation (obviously hypothetical), should they be let go?
Well, it depends. If they've been "fitted up", to use the British usage (it means "framed"), then of course they should be let go. If, on the other hand, the case is sound but someone forgot to sign the yellow file copy of some form or another, then no. But that's should be true of all criminal cases, IMO, because not signing the yellow file copy of some form or another should not, in most circumstances, be enough to introduce reasonable doubt into the minds of a jury. If it is, they walk.
Implicit in this line of thinking, of course, is that these people, US citizens or not, should be subject to jury trial and not just given orange jumpsuits and flown to a beachside location in Cuba. (Today's trivia - the famous song "Guantanamera", about a beautiful girl on a beautiful beach, was written about a beautiful girl at Guantanamo Bay, before it became famous for being a US base.)
3. If found guilty, what should be done with these terrorists? Prison? Death penalty? Deportation?
They haven't actually killed anybody, which to my knowledge of US penal law excludes them from the death penalty (and so it should, unless of course they have killed someone in a jurisdiction which has a capital penalty for murder). Deportation might only be practical for five of the six (the current number being reported here) as one appears to be a US citizen, albeit one of foreign birth.
Plus that's also unsatisfactory unless they are going to be punished in their home jurisdictions, which mostly seem to be Turkey & the former Yugoslavia (aside from the US/Jordanian). Turkey's jails are probably okay, meaning pretty secure, but I've no idea whether prisons in Bosnia or wherever would be a sensible choice. Which leaves regular US Federal/state prison, or Guantanamo. If their tried in front of a jury, convicted and sentenced, I'd have no beef whatever with their being incarcerated in Gitmo for the duration of their sentence.
Questions for debate:
1. Do you think that the investigation could've been successful due to the work of homeland security-related work?
Yes but any way we get them is fine. These fools were trying to buy full auto AK-47s and the sting that got them may have been FBI or HS funded.
2. What if the terrorists civil liberties were violated in the investigation (obviously hypothetical), should they be let go? Unfortunately at this point yes. As the attacks become successful (I hope it never happens) IMO most people will be more eager to get them off the street even if the law made errors. We will see.
3. If found guilty, what should be done with these terrorists? Prison? Death penalty? Deportation?
Death. Or Life with no parole
1. Do you think that the investigation could've been successful due to the work of homeland security-related work?
Yes but any way we get them is fine. These fools were trying to buy full auto AK-47s and the sting that got them may have been FBI or HS funded.
2. What if the terrorists civil liberties were violated in the investigation (obviously hypothetical), should they be let go? Unfortunately at this point yes. As the attacks become successful (I hope it never happens) IMO most people will be more eager to get them off the street even if the law made errors. We will see.
3. If found guilty, what should be done with these terrorists? Prison? Death penalty? Deportation?
Death. Or Life with no parole
QUOTE(Julian @ May 8 2007, 01:41 PM)
3. If found guilty, what should be done with these terrorists? Prison? Death penalty? Deportation?
They haven't actually killed anybody, which to my knowledge of US penal law excludes them from the death penalty (and so it should, unless of course they have killed someone in a jurisdiction which has a capital penalty for murder). Deportation might only be practical for five of the six (the current number being reported here) as one appears to be a US citizen, albeit one of foreign birth.
Plus that's also unsatisfactory unless they are going to be punished in their home jurisdictions, which mostly seem to be Turkey & the former Yugoslavia (aside from the US/Jordanian). Turkey's jails are probably okay, meaning pretty secure, but I've no idea whether prisons in Bosnia or wherever would be a sensible choice. Which leaves regular US Federal/state prison, or Guantanamo. If their tried in front of a jury, convicted and sentenced, I'd have no beef whatever with their being incarcerated in Gitmo for the duration of their sentence.
They haven't actually killed anybody, which to my knowledge of US penal law excludes them from the death penalty (and so it should, unless of course they have killed someone in a jurisdiction which has a capital penalty for murder). Deportation might only be practical for five of the six (the current number being reported here) as one appears to be a US citizen, albeit one of foreign birth.
Plus that's also unsatisfactory unless they are going to be punished in their home jurisdictions, which mostly seem to be Turkey & the former Yugoslavia (aside from the US/Jordanian). Turkey's jails are probably okay, meaning pretty secure, but I've no idea whether prisons in Bosnia or wherever would be a sensible choice. Which leaves regular US Federal/state prison, or Guantanamo. If their tried in front of a jury, convicted and sentenced, I'd have no beef whatever with their being incarcerated in Gitmo for the duration of their sentence.
My question to the world would be, what would happen if we attempted to blow up a subway in France? Would France send me back to the US, or would I rot in a French Prison until I was worm food?
In my opinion, people that have plans such as these should be shot and/or put into the most terrible prison on American soil. Deprive them of everything but sustenance for eternity... in a 3 x 10 cell or something.
People act as if the rest of the world has some "UN nicey-nice" based ideology about how people like this should be handled. I can tell you that if I were to be arrested in Mexico for this, I'd live in a rat infested cess pool until I die from disease. In the US, they get rec time and a plane ride home. WHAT??? So they can get out and try to do this again? ? ?
A bullet may be too humane. I think we should have a tent prison in the middle of the desert that forces them to live/eat/sleep in tents and if they try to escape, they're shot to be wounded and brought back.
QUOTE(aevans176 @ May 9 2007, 10:26 AM)
My question to the world would be, what would happen if we attempted to blow up a subway in France? Would France send me back to the US, or would I rot in a French Prison until I was worm food?
In my opinion, people that have plans such as these should be shot and/or put into the most terrible prison on American soil. Deprive them of everything but sustenance for eternity... in a 3 x 10 cell or something.
People act as if the rest of the world has some "UN nicey-nice" based ideology about how people like this should be handled. I can tell you that if I were to be arrested in Mexico for this, I'd live in a rat infested cess pool until I die from disease. In the US, they get rec time and a plane ride home. WHAT??? So they can get out and try to do this again? ? ?
A bullet may be too humane. I think we should have a tent prison in the middle of the desert that forces them to live/eat/sleep in tents and if they try to escape, they're shot to be wounded and brought back.
In my opinion, people that have plans such as these should be shot and/or put into the most terrible prison on American soil. Deprive them of everything but sustenance for eternity... in a 3 x 10 cell or something.
People act as if the rest of the world has some "UN nicey-nice" based ideology about how people like this should be handled. I can tell you that if I were to be arrested in Mexico for this, I'd live in a rat infested cess pool until I die from disease. In the US, they get rec time and a plane ride home. WHAT??? So they can get out and try to do this again? ? ?
A bullet may be too humane. I think we should have a tent prison in the middle of the desert that forces them to live/eat/sleep in tents and if they try to escape, they're shot to be wounded and brought back.
I certainly don't wish to make light of this, but isn't it preferable that these imbeciles try to attack a military base as opposed to a schoolhouse, for instance? Was there actually any "attempt" to speak of in this case? How far would they get...would they scale the fence? I frankly don't believe that they stood a very good chance of getting anywhere with their evil plans, were those plans to actually come to fruition. So I'd say prison, for whatever term fits this type of murder conspiracy. But I don't think this rises to the level of a planted bomb on the DC subway.
From my perspective, this isn't as much a homeland security victory as a victory over pusillanimous stupidity. Only wish they were all that easy.
1. Do you think that the investigation could've been successful due to the work of homeland security-related work?
No. Sounds to me the men’s capture was due solely to an alert video store clerk who notified the FBI while Homeland Security was busy deciding what color the alert was going to be that week.
3. If found guilty, what should be done with these terrorists? Prison? Death penalty? Deportation?
Let’s not get hysterical. The charges look to be "conspiracy to murder members of the armed forces" for the brothers (which carries a possible life sentence) and "aiding and abetting illegal weapons possession" *(10 years). I’d rather see them deported to carry out their sentence in a foreign jail, but chances of that happening are slim. So, they should be tried and sentenced and incarcerated appropriately…after which, I’d love to see them booted out of the country.
In my opinion, these yahoos are less like jihadists than they are like the Muslim version of school shooters. They want recognition and don’t care how they get it. By all accounts, they were lousy shots, and it's painfully obvious they weren't the sharpest knives in the drawer.
*If the gun folks had their way, the guns these guys were trying to buy wouldn't be illegal, and there would have been no way the FBI could have mounted a sting against them. Think about that.
No. Sounds to me the men’s capture was due solely to an alert video store clerk who notified the FBI while Homeland Security was busy deciding what color the alert was going to be that week.
3. If found guilty, what should be done with these terrorists? Prison? Death penalty? Deportation?
Let’s not get hysterical. The charges look to be "conspiracy to murder members of the armed forces" for the brothers (which carries a possible life sentence) and "aiding and abetting illegal weapons possession" *(10 years). I’d rather see them deported to carry out their sentence in a foreign jail, but chances of that happening are slim. So, they should be tried and sentenced and incarcerated appropriately…after which, I’d love to see them booted out of the country.
In my opinion, these yahoos are less like jihadists than they are like the Muslim version of school shooters. They want recognition and don’t care how they get it. By all accounts, they were lousy shots, and it's painfully obvious they weren't the sharpest knives in the drawer.
*If the gun folks had their way, the guns these guys were trying to buy wouldn't be illegal, and there would have been no way the FBI could have mounted a sting against them. Think about that.
QUOTE(Mrs. Pigpen @ May 9 2007, 03:31 PM)
QUOTE(aevans176 @ May 9 2007, 10:26 AM)
My question to the world would be, what would happen if we attempted to blow up a subway in France? Would France send me back to the US, or would I rot in a French Prison until I was worm food?
In my opinion, people that have plans such as these should be shot and/or put into the most terrible prison on American soil. Deprive them of everything but sustenance for eternity... in a 3 x 10 cell or something.
People act as if the rest of the world has some "UN nicey-nice" based ideology about how people like this should be handled. I can tell you that if I were to be arrested in Mexico for this, I'd live in a rat infested cess pool until I die from disease. In the US, they get rec time and a plane ride home. WHAT??? So they can get out and try to do this again? ? ?
A bullet may be too humane. I think we should have a tent prison in the middle of the desert that forces them to live/eat/sleep in tents and if they try to escape, they're shot to be wounded and brought back.
In my opinion, people that have plans such as these should be shot and/or put into the most terrible prison on American soil. Deprive them of everything but sustenance for eternity... in a 3 x 10 cell or something.
People act as if the rest of the world has some "UN nicey-nice" based ideology about how people like this should be handled. I can tell you that if I were to be arrested in Mexico for this, I'd live in a rat infested cess pool until I die from disease. In the US, they get rec time and a plane ride home. WHAT??? So they can get out and try to do this again? ? ?
A bullet may be too humane. I think we should have a tent prison in the middle of the desert that forces them to live/eat/sleep in tents and if they try to escape, they're shot to be wounded and brought back.
I certainly don't wish to make light of this, but isn't it preferable that these imbeciles try to attack a military base as opposed to a schoolhouse, for instance? Was there actually any "attempt" to speak of in this case? How far would they get...would they scale the fence? I frankly don't believe that they stood a very good chance of getting anywhere with their evil plans, were those plans to actually come to fruition. So I'd say prison, for whatever term fits this type of murder conspiracy. But I don't think this rises to the level of a planted bomb on the DC subway.
From my perspective, this isn't as much a homeland security victory as a victory over pusillanimous stupidity. Only wish they were all that easy.
Im not sure about the particular post they were planning to attack but I can ASSURE you that many national guard "bases" are far from secure. At the current "base" I goto there's not a single armed guard in sight on drill weekend. When I get inside there's a civilian guard, with no gun, and looks very out of shape who eat's donuts and drinks coffee all day. All of the weapons are locked away and if there was an attack it would take hours to actually form a defense. It's mostly ran by AGR that run the show that get paid $30/hr to sit around and "supervise". Weapons are strictly prohibited outside of once a year when we have to qualify with one.
All that stands between them is a fence.... not even an electrical fence.... that's it... and some camera's that are watched by people without weapons, and heck the gate is kept wide open on drill weekends, you can just drive right in, no ID, no armed guard, nothing. Protection levels are not increased until something actually happens to justify it, which when implemented take hours to even remotely setup.
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