In the spirit of Fathers day and with our nations birthday just around the corner, was curious about the following:

What would the Founding Fathers be most proud of in America today?

What would the Founding Fathers be least proud of in American today?

What do you think their overall impression would be of their “little experiment”?

I’ll add more later, but I think Thomas Jefferson would be disgusted that republicanism has gone backwards in what once was a forward thinking country.

The Founders would be most proud of our status as an economic and military superpower who exports our culture, products and influence throughout the world. To think that we have become such an entity after beginning so humbly. They would be proud that so many people believed and bought into their experiment to the point that it has become one of the most powerful and influential countries in human history. Sadly, that would be one of few things they would be proud of.
Wow, where to start. They wouldn't be proud of our entangled alliances that breed anti-American sentiment abroad, they stressed humble foreign policy and borderline isolationism. They wouldn't be proud of crippling national debt and our budget deficit, as this would be a sign of overly powerful government at the expense of future taxpayers. They wouldn't be proud of absurdly sprawling national government that has grown exponentially since their time. But I think what they would be the least proud of is our unbelievable willingness to sacrifice the freedoms which they fought for, on penalty of death. They would be least proud of the USA PATRIOT ACT, Guantanamo Bay, warrantless searches, Federal eavesdropping programs, waterboarding and our general "it's not happening to me, so it's okay" attitude regarding the complete denial of Constitutional and natural rights to other human beings. That is what the Founders would be least proud of the; the contrast between their generation, who risked their lives to safeguard freedoms vs. our own who will surrender freedoms to fear in exchange for perceived "security".
They would probably say something along the lines of, "did you guys read the Constitution? They would be incredibly dissapointed at the reversal of attitude toward government. Government used to be a monster that needed to be chained down, now it is a general store that provides goods and services for citizens. I wonder what needs to happen for us to revert back to our healthy fear of government.

CP

The the country they founded is the greatest country on the planet, economically, militarily, socially, and culturally. That despite the awesome power their country wields it is (mostly) a force of good.

Education's low status on the totem pole. The dilution of politics to a sport. The complete lack of civic responsibility and duty. The attempts to level all playing fields even when it doesn't make any sense for a society to do so.

I suspect over all they would be pleased. However, there are certainly parts of the "experiment" that would cause them great concern. I suspect quite a few of them would feel the need to smack Americans up side the collective head and scream at them, "Do you know how long it took to write the Constitution? Try reading it and stop just guessing we were pretty specific about what we wanted!"

The Founding Fathers have always been held in pretty high esteem in the Grimes' family household. My father, my Grand father and my Great Grand father often quoted the likes of Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin. "I know not what course others may take, but as for me, Give me Liberty or Give me Death!" "The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it always to be kept alive." "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

What would they be most proud of today? I'd have to say, "Our Conquering the Continent." Sea to shining Sea. Henry looked west long before Jefferson ever heard of Louisana and now, we've turned it into ..... "Conquering the Continent" would have to be "high" on their list.

What would they be least proud of today? I'd have to say, "Our Tyranny in Washington." The federal government has gobbled up more and more of our unalienable rights and individual liberties. They warned US against it. Henry fought against it in '89. Jefferson worried about it too. The IX & X Amdendents have long been gone. They've been chip chip chiping away at our Bill of Rights. "Tyranny in Washington" would have to be "low" on their list.

As to their overall impression, I suspect they would be amazed. In awe. Horrified and Disgusted. I suspect they would be dizzy from rolling over in their graves.

One must think of what runs through a liberal's mind when he sees questions like this...

Seeing as the world the Founding Fathers lived in would have been a nightmare for me I'll says, thanks for a good start, but let's not go back there anytime soon.
What would the Founding Fathers be most proud of in America today?

That this thing is still standing, It looked rough for a while there...

The continental expanse of the nation, the peace and prosperity, I bet Ben would love the way tech has evolved.
What would the Founding Fathers be least proud of in American today?

What do you mean we have to pay for labor now? Let them go? Fine but at least they aren't voting or attending our schools...
(stunned silence)....

Is that a woman running for president? ...and who's that behind... oh...my...diety.

The cultural changes would be a shocker and likely a disappointment. I agree that civil liberties would be a downer too.

Though I think many of the governmental services would be welcomed. Jefferson himself was one of our earliest advocates of public funded education.
What do you think their overall impression would be of their little experiment

Dang proud. Though a little disappointed that people have forgotten it was an experiment.

I for one feel they must be rolling in their graves for being deified rather than Americans working to innovate new solutions in policy,

What would the Founding Fathers be most proud of in America today?

I think for the most part, the founders would be impressed with the equality that is so much more universal today than it was in their day. Indians, blacks, immigrants, women and non-land holders all have far more freedoms and privelidges than they did in late 1700s America.

I think they would also be proud that the leadership of the country changes peacefully from opposition party to opposition party and back so smoothly. The lack of infighting and the absence of titled nobility would be impressive.

What would the Founding Fathers be least proud of in American today?

When, exactly, did Federalism die? Why does the national government lord itself over the States in direct contradiction to the intent of the Constitution?

The death of federalism, which was so clearly laid out in the Constitution, would have to be the mind boggler for them. Yes, the Constitution granted the federal government far more power than it had under the Articles of Confederation, but I am certain that level of absolute power that the federal government has usurped from the States since the days of FDR would shock the founders.

What do you think their overall impression would be of their “little experiment”?

Overall, I think they would feel that their experiment has been a success. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are all more readily available here in the US than anywhere else on the planet. The freedoms enjoyed by US citizens today far outstrip those of Founders. I think certain Founders would frown upon our global involvement, but not all of them shared this viewpoint.

What would the Founding Fathers be most proud of in America today?

The sheer size and diversity of our country would astonish them, I'm sure. The highway system would boggle their minds.

What would the Founding Fathers be least proud of in American today?

They would be astonished by what the current administration gets away with and has not been prosecuted for. They might wonder why some of the leaders haven't been called out to duel if the legal system can't touch them.

I don't think the Founders would understand why a country so concerned with spreading democracy in the world would allow itself to be so heavily indebted to a communist country.

They would find appalling the extent of corporate influence in the halls of Congress.

What do you think their overall impression would be of their little experiment?

"It's ALIVE! It's ALIVE [if not totally well]!"


(Don't we just LOVE putting our words into the mouths of our Founding Fathers?! )

Bull's Eye!

That is what I see going wrong with the Founding Father's worship we see so often. For instance.

I ask, in all seriousness, what on Earth could have given you that impression?

In general we are talking of men that, for all their redeemable qualities, were slave-holding racists.

Certainly their consciences occasionally cropped up, but if actions speak louder than words than our Founding Fathers screamed a message that says they would be in no way pleased with racial equality.

The whole questions of "What the Founding Fathers would Think" is destined to become what PE referenced, a sock puppet show.

My answer would more accurately be, Who cares?

Edited to Add:
I should point out Ben Franklin's one shining example of a man who actually believed all men were created equal.

Well, there thoughts were what framed the document which we still [nominally] use to legally limit our government. Asking what the Founders would think is almost equivilent to asking how a certain aspect of government/society levels up to the Constitution. "Founder worship" is not the worst "problem" we could have in this country, and I believe that if you think is it prevalent in Washington or anywhere else where power is wielded, I think you're mistaken.

A wise man once wrote in his signature line on a certain online political debate website: What Would Jefferson Do?
That's something we should consider before we support any government action.

CP

There's another problem.

No it is not at all like asking whether the government levels up to the Constitution. Let's not forget these were mean that debated that document for years on end and had their own views on many aspects of it.

Memory also serves that the document we have today is unlike the 1789 original in many blessed ways.


It's rather worse. It is prevalent in the people, who (I'll borrow your nominally) hold the true power.


I rather think "Is this a good idea?" is a better question.

..and considering Jefferson's view on public education I figured you would too.

My point was that the Framer's ideals are the basis for the Constitution...That is a fact. Now, they did all have different takes on the Constitution but it was their [as a collective group] brainchild, and as such, not, at the very least, considering there views is dangerous.
And unlike the original in many more un-blessed ways.
Certainly no one in the White House, Supreme Court and very little of Congress. Just who are these people you speak of?
And there's no reason why we cannot do both.
I've always found Jefferson's views on education strange/hypocritical...How can one consider oneself an anti-Federalist and support a national university?

CP

Do you really believe the document has changed more for the worse than the better?

I'd love to see that substantiated.

Pro:
Extension of legal protections and franchise to all citizens.

Con:
Direct election of Senators.

The contest of the century.


The American People. You know the voting public. Those guys.


Yes, well that wasn't his only hypocritical area. If anything our Founding Fathers were case studies in cognitive dissonance.

Ah, you're referring to direct Amendments to the Constitution. Those are all well and good, I'm looking at it from a realistic perspective...How is the Constitution VIEWED and how is it actually PUT INTO PRACTICE, nowadays. Well, our President has called it a "god damn piece of paper", our Attorney General claims that Habeus Corpus is not guarenteed by it and our Congress was toying with the notion of Amending it to ban gay marriage. The Constitution's public standing and the adherence to it has gotten worse, not better starting with America's first dictator, Franklin Delano Roosevelt. It is THAT way that I see the Constitution changing for the worse, not the Amendments added on to it.
You mean the people who thought that Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11, or the guys who can't pick the Senate Majority leader out of a lineup, or the guys who vote for American Idol in larger numbers than their Senatorial elections, or the guys who can't name all 10 Bill Of Rights Amendments...Those guys? If you think the average American is a "Founder worshipper" or has any real knowledge regarding the Founder's intent for the country or their views on the Constitution, well, I would love to see that substantiated.

CP

Real knowledge?

Heavens no.

Pseudo-Patriotic hero worship?

As a matter of course.

In keeping with the topic I hope this shows just how hopeless any What Would Jefferson do hand-wringing really is.

Give some a sock and they’ll make a puppet, give someone else a sock and they’ll put it to good use. You could have simply ignored the post.

But since you didn’t…..

As you mention, many toiled with the institution of slavery, although Jefferson owned slaves he was in the minority by opposing it’s existence and labeled it “immoral”. In his first draft of the Declaration he ostracized Britain for promoting the slave trade to the colonies but it was removed by the request of representatives from several Southern states. That’s important because at that time he and many others were trying their best to be the anti-Britain. Who knows how things might have changed if that passage were kept in the original document. There’s a lesson right there that shouldn’t be repeated.

But I think Jefferson and many others would be proud that the framework they established, that they risked their lives for, allowed the citizenry to do what was right and rise against the slave establishment and eventually give equal rights to blacks, women and anyone who chooses to live here. They just might be surprised it took as long as it did.

And if this group of “white racist” didn’t risk life and limb, where exactly do you think you’d be today Turnea? That is one of the many reasons why it’s important to look back and evaluate where we are and where we’re headed, are we still within the “guard rails” that were established over two hundred years ago?

Back to Jefferson. One of the reasons he ranks high on my all time list is he wasn’t afraid to, gasp, change his mind. He initially wrote that blacks, for a variety of reasons, couldn’t exist in a white society, an unfortunate belief commonly held in the day. But he changed his mind and in a letter wrote one of my favorite passages that epitomizes his “American Republicanism”:

This is a good point and one that deserves comment.

Although as a group, the Founding Fathers were visionaries, individually they were just men. As such, they were men of their times and bound by those same times.

Slavery, to the Founders, was a political issue. Again, they saw through the lens of their times that said that men could be held as property. Yes, this is not the lens of our times, but we can see a grain of what they thought of: equality for all men. Unfortunately, at the time, certain groups (including women!) were not considered "men".

Given today's wider view of the concept, I believe that man of the Founders (and certainly the idealism of the Founders as a group) would see the wisdom and the benefits of emancipating all humans and not just select groups.

For example, it is well known that Thomas Jefferson owned slaves. 187 of them, in fact. But as this site asks:



They are all descendents of the slave children of Thomas Jefferson. These slave children he freed (along with their mother) either before his death or in his will. Now, by today's standards the man was still a slave owner. But by the standards of the day? Much more progressive.

George Washington, in his will, freed all of his slaves (over 300) upon the death of Martha Washington. He provided for their care and education in his will as well. Maybe not up to today's standards, but forward thinking by the standards of the day.

Slavery was a political issue and one not tackled by the Founders because of the rift that it was bound to create. That rift erupted less than 75 years after the founding of this country. The Founders did speak out about slavery, although as we know, they did not act publicly against it: What the Founders Said about Slavery.

..and yet he continued to own slaves.

It was not so immoral that he was willing to work off his own debt. That was left to the slaves he never freed as "planned."

A man who does something he himself considers immoral is to be our touchstone?

In addition he remained a committed racist who advocated abolition but would never have countenanced freedom currently afforded to blacks.

Amlord makes an important point.

That's my point as well.

I don't hate the Founding Fathers and I certainly appreciate their vision. My point is this, they are human and what they would think is of little consequence in our time.


Wishful thinking. It wasn't until the 1950's that Americans reached this conclusion... and the late 60's when they put it into practice.

It's not just slavery but racism that I pointed to and despite Washington freeing his slaves at his death (way to go , and the only Founding Father to do so) they remained committed to racism even as people in their time (like Franklin) took a real stand.


Then why ask what they would think about our time?

I responded to this thread because I think that truth needs to be understood fully.

Ah, clear case of “can’t see the forest because of the trees”.

And exactly what is the truth Turnea? That these men were slave holders? Wow, stop the presses.

There are literally hundreds of directions one could have taken with these questions. Unfortunately, and predictably, you still can’t get past an issue that, well, is no longer an issue.

Shame really, that you sit and linger on sins of the past when you have so much more to offer. Learn from the past, dwelling on it is mental bondage.

And you never answered my question: where would you be today if this group was full of modern political apathy and had capitulated to Britain?

But saying there’s nothing gained from speculating what the Founding Fathers would think today, well, you couldn’t be further from the truth, it’s done on almost a daily basis here on AD. We’re constantly measuring political stress points against the ideology that was laid down centuries ago. And that’s not the most important lesson we can take.

This group risked all for self governance, whereas the average modern American can’t be bothered to break away from the couch/computer/game console long enough to even give a crap that our politicians don’t have our best interests in mind. We don’t have to risk anything but our time to better our country and most can’t be bothered to even vote.

Yeah, you’re right, there’s nothing important about that.

That is precisely what I was thinking.

My point is not an appeal to pathos. I don't recommend lingering in the past or either side of this issue.

I actually think very highly of many of the Founding Fathers, especially Jefferson. I have no doubt that, in their time, they were good men even if its hard to see now how a good man could sell others to pay his own debt while advocating abolition.

It was a different time and that is as true of the good as the bad.

I do not question the importance of their deeds, my point is rather like that of George Marshall.

I question the wisdom of trying the pry the Founding Fathers out of their historical context and caution that it can only lead to people speaking their own words, ostensibly through Jeffersonian lips.

It's done.

The future is ours to judge.

These men risked everything. Life. Liberty. Property. Thier Sacred Honor.

I have a hard time with anyone who denounces their contribution to the welfare of the common man just becuase they participated in an economic institution that was legal and prevelant at their time.

Slavery didn't start in Virginia and it didn't end there either. It has existed since time immemorial and it still exists even today. Just exactly how many times is slavery and/or slaves mentioned in the Holy Bible?

I'm not advocating "for" slavery. It was a bad thing all around. It was bad for the Africans that stole their black brothern from their families and sold them off into the African Slave Trade. It was bad for the royal white speculators (Royal African Company) who transported them to the New World. It was bad for the plantation class who had to feed, house, train and care for them. It was bad for the poor and middle class white men who had to compete against them for what few jobs were available and it was bad for them that were fortunate enough to make it across the passage to North America. I beleive that they were a very very fortunate and very very small (5%) minority as compared to those that ended up in the West Indies and Central and South America (90%) but nobody seems to want to talk about that issue.

Did you know that Patrick Henry advocated abolition of the African Slave Trade in the 1750's and 1760's? No, I imagine you didn't. He recognized early on the hyprocacy of the institution and the danger it presented to US and urged the Virginia House of Burgesses to put a stop to it. Do you know why they didn't / couldn't get it done? Royals in Europe and England were making too much money off of it and they envisioned using the slaves in the colonies to offset independent minded freeholders. That's why.

Don't belittle the Founding Fathers on this matter around me. I won't hear of it.

If you ever find such a person, be sure to let me know.

Many things were legal, prevalent, and morally reprehensible. That does not at all negate the value of the Founding Father actions it merely remind us that their perspectives would clash with this time so fundamentally it is hard to imagine why e wold want to try and extrapolate their views.


Which is why it was abolished as soon as the pesky British were out of our hair.

Do not sugarcoat the past. Slavery continued for so long because this nation benefited heavily from it. Henry himself owned slaves.

Sir, with all due respect and perhaps this is a topic for another thread, but if as you say "this nation benefited heavily from it", then why are the countries of Central and South America and the Carribbean Islands in such a pitiful state?

It is common knowledge that the vast amount of black African slaves transported to the New World did NOT end up in North America. In fact, I think that less than 5 percent of 'em ended up here. If they were so good for US ..... If we benefited so heavily from them ..... What happened in them other countries? Why didn't they benefit so heavily from the institution?

I suggest that slavery wasn't so good for US and it wasn't so good for them.

Again, I ain't an advocate for slavery. I ain't trying to put down the black man either. I know for a fact the black man contributed a lot to the success of our nation. I ain't trying to take one thing away from him. I am saying that it has been my experience that a lot of modern day black men have a commonly held misconception about the evils of slavery in the United States of America. It seems like they have a chip on their shoulder against poor and middle class white people who didn't have anything to do with the African Slave Trade in general and opposed it from the very beginning on principle.

Our Founding Fathers were brought up into a social and economic environment in which slavery was not only legal but necessary to their overall success and physical survival. They struggled with the moral and ethical dilemmas surrounding this issue more than you and I shall ever know. I think we ought to honor them and their struggle more than we do. Especially now, in this time in which we live.

"O ye that love mankind! Ye that dare oppose, not only the tyranny, but the tyrant, stand forth! Every spot of the old world is overrun with oppression. Freedom hath been hunted round the globe. Asia, and Africa, have long expelled her--Europe regards her like a stranger, and England hath given her warning to depart. O! receive the fugitive, and prepare in time an asylum for mankind."
- Thomas Paine, Common Sense, January 10, 1776

That is an obvious non-sequiter.

Are you actually suggesting that slavery is the reason for Central and South America's relative lack of compared to prosperity to the US?

That's questionable, but regardless of the accuracy of the statement how can you say this and then claim the nation did not benefit from slavery?


Honor away, but do not look to them as touchstones for our time, that does them a disservice.

The Founding Fathers could never understand our times any better than we understand theirs.

I think you're wrong about that, pard. We ain't all that different. The body of knowledge is most certainly greater. We've got a few more gidgets and gizmos. But I think they knew some things about US that we've forgot.

I ain't for deifying 'em. Far from it. I do think we ought to pay more attention to 'em though.

"The more things change, the more they remain the same." Its cliche' because its true.

I believe we are struggling with very similar issues now. The European Union. The North American Union. NAFTA. Free Trade. Globalization. Its different, but its the same.

We the People are soverign. We don't need no aristocracy ..... We don't need no king. We don't need no Dictator Duh-bya in Washington!

Sic Semper Tyrannis!

Can I just say, as an outside in this topic... I have never understood this near idolotry of the Founding fathers of the United States. Obviously the question 'what would the founding fathers think' is an interesting bit of trivia, as it allows us to discuss how things have or have not changed since the days of yore, so to speak. But what baffles me how some people refer to the opinions of the founding fathers as if it actually mattered to today's policy and practice. I have seen people here quote them as one would the bible, quote their opinions as if they were the law of the land. I simply do not understand that.

Don't get me wrong, the Founding fathers were great men with great vision: but they were just men. They absolutely deserve to be revered, and honoured for what they wrought, but sometimes I think it goes a bit far.

In Canada I think we have a far more healthy attitude towards our founders. the 'fathers of Confederation' here are revered, and loved for the work they did and the vision they had of Canada. The first Prime Minister of Canada, Sir John A Macdonald, won six majority governments and ruled the country for 19 years, shaping much of what we think of as Canada today. But while gradeshoolers may know and revere the name, they also know him as a violent drunkard who routinely ran the House of Commons pickled out of his mind and once sprinted across the floor and tackled a member opposite.

Sir John was our second longest serving PM: our longest was William Lyon Mackenzie King, who ruled for an astonishing 21 years, guided Canada through the depression and Second World war, made Canada a world power (those were the days) and shaped modern Canada. We revere him and study him, but everyone also knows he was completely insane; his chief political advisor was the spirit of his dead mother and he carried out long (and apprently two way) conversations with the clock on his mantle.



Of course the US founding fathers had warts, many of them believed in slavery and saw no moral harm in it, some of them didn't. Some were ruthless bastards who wanted independence for their own financial interest, others were enlightened men who wanted genuine freedom for the people. If the founding fathers were by and large ok with the idea of slavery, does that somehow invalidate the greatness of what they created? If they were flawed men with weaknesses and inner demons, does that make them less worthy of admiration for their creation, or MORE so?

In reality, I think the founding fathers would be overall pleased with the US today, warts and all, but probably wouldn't care as they would be too overwhelmed by the flying machines, televisions, instantanious communication, and freqency of scantily clad young women walking around with low-rise jeans. (Oh, and the easy availability of cheap tea).




Total Aside: It always bothers me when I hear comments like this. Economically? Indeed. Militarily? No question. But 'socially and culturally' superior?
Firstly, how on earth can you measure or proclaim superiority of something so utterly subjective?
Secondly, if we take those few objective markers of social and cultural superiority, do you really think the US measures up as the 'best' by any standard? How is it 'culturally and socially' btter than France, or canada, or Norway, or Australia, or Japan, or the Czech republic? How can you proclaim the US 'culturally superior' to nations like the UK who have culture and tradition 2000 years old, or Italy which has culture and traditions 3000 years old?
Thirdly, I wonder if Americans realise just how it sounds when they wander about proclaiming 'cultural and social' superiority to other nations? One wonders if they realise that this little thing might be the seed of some of the anti-American sentiment that does exist out there?