It is rare we get one constitutional thread started, but this is the second today. In this morning’s Fort worth Star Telegram I read that the junior United States Senator from Texas, John Cornyn, has introduced a bill that would...



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http://www.star-telegram.com/news/story/140833.html

Questions for debate:

1. Do you agree with John Cornyn’s proposed legislation? Why or why not?

2. Does the proposed bill restrict “freedom of expression”?

3. On a scale of 1 to 10, where would you rate Cornyn’s legislation compared to other issues like immigration, energy policy, etc.?

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Note: I am offering this note to focus the debate more sharply. Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer and John Wayne Gacy are all dead. Nothing further from them will be coming out of a penitentiary. If I’m reading the constitution’s provisions regarding ex post facto laws correctly, then what’s out there is out there. There is no way to do a recall, if you will. As macabre as “the railroad killer’s” toenail clippings may be, I don’t think there’s anything that can be done about it. Further, one real estate agent in Ponder, Texas, near Denton, is listing a property thusly:

QUOTE

Unique commercial building in downtown Ponder. Located in the same block with former bank (robbed by Bonnie and Clyde), Ponder Boot Company, and Ranchman's Cafe. Current owners have used as a Forge and workshop/showroom for custom iron work. Roof, wiring, plumbing, concrete flooring all have been re-done. Many possibilities for live/work space, artist worshop and showroom, blacksmith shop, etc.

http://www.trulia.com/property/1007265074-...Ponder-TX-76259

In addition, John Dillinger, Jesse James and John Wesley Hardin have become folk heroes of sorts.

The J. M. Davis museum in Claremore, Oklahoma has an outlaw gallery.

http://www.state.ok.us/~jmdavis/index.html
http://www.state.ok.us/~jmdavis/outlaw.html

There is a John Dillinger Museum in Nashville, Indiana.

http://www.roadsideamerica.com/tour/94day6.html

It seems that many cats are out of the bag. How many do we keep in?

1. Well it's tough to disagree with morally. Legally I hate to see the US Government wasting time with this sort of silliness. There's already a law on the books that prevents living criminals from profitting from their crimes. Dead criminals can't make money so...
2. Even if passed no. Selling things will never be an expression.
3. It doesn't even warrant a number. It's pointless, vapid fluff from someone who clearly doesn't have enough to do.

1. Do you agree with John Cornyn’s proposed legislation? Why or why not?


Strange, really strange, but I don't totally disagree with you BA. People have always loved murder. How many crime docudramas have you seen on TV. Remember the Godfather and other gangster movies. Take a glance at the New York Times “Best Seller List.” How many murder mysteries are there on a given week? Look at the real estate listing on Bonnie and Clyde and the other information in the disclaimer in blue at the bottom of the original thread.

I agree that this is silly, but this bit of silliness was introduced by a United States Senator, John Cornyn of Texas, as if it were a serious matter.

The crux of this whole thing is not to keep criminals from making money, but stopping people on the internet from making money off murder memorabilia. It is an attempt to shut down an internet industry that Senator John Cornyn, in his "infinite" wisdom doesn’t like.

Here's an example of what we are talking about.

Example of Murderabilia Webpage?

2. Does the proposed bill restrict “freedom of expression”?



Says who? John Wayne Gacy’s paintings were art. How good was his art? That’s another matter. Art is an expression and how one wants to define art is not science.

3. On a scale of 1 to 10, where would you rate Cornyn’s legislation compared to other issues like immigration, energy policy, etc.?



Here’s where we agree. Texas beloved senator John Cornyn seems to be trying to make it look as if he is doing something, when in fact, he’s probably not doing much of anything. If Harry Reid and the Democratic committee chairs let this one get to the floor, then they’ve lost some of my respect.

On a scale of one to 10, I'd give Cornyn no more than "1."

BTW: It seems like traffic in items, like a serial killer's toenail clippings, has been going on for some time. Just out of curiosity, why didn't Cornyn bring this up when his party - the Republicans - controlled Congress?

If I had to guess, and I do, I'd say he just was told about it. Probably by some hand wringing constituent who also had just found out about this at book club meeting.

No, because it prohibits the free and voluntary exchange of good and currency under the auspices of morality. It combines two things which I despise all in one piece of legislation: it attempts to codify "morality" in law and it bans a free, voluntary economic exchange. Good thing this is a "conservative" proposing such legislation, otherwise it might be misconstrued as "big government" .
There are some instances in which a purchase of something constitutes "expression"; I do not believe this to be one of those instances, so no. In fact, this is probably completely Constitutional under the "interstate commerce" clause.
One, but only because that was the lowest number I could choose from. This is an absurd piece of legislation that bans a voluntary exchange that harms no one. If you don't think buying murderer's "foot scrapings" [who the hell buys anyone's foot scrapings?] is moral...don't do it; there is no justification for preventing others from doing it.

CP

I am coming very close to cutting and pasting CP's respose- but I want my own spin on it

1. Do you agree with John Cornyn’s proposed legislation? Why or why not?

I totally disagree of course- but the fact that it is introduced goes to the very heart of libertarian expression an libertarian thought- this is our great "anti"- we are against lawmakers that waste time on this kind of thing, big time. It goes to the heart of our disgust at hand-wringing "what about the CHILDREN' knee-jerk reaction that some over-wrought and over-pious church lady got started. Sure- we all are disgusted with murder- who isn't? - but, hey, who wants to be ON RECORD as being FOR some sort of murder-memorabilia rights group? Ugh- then you have two lobbyist groups, all giving more money to corrupt Senators- it just doesn't end - it does nothing for the victims, it doesn't punish murderers better, and, in the end, may be used to stifle some actual expression of the Macabe'.

2. Does the proposed bill restrict “freedom of expression”?

I would say "yes" on the face of it- let's see if it ever makes law and gets out of the hypothetical before any logical debate can be started. I would like to see what makes it to the house floor for debate and vote to see what it really does personally. Like it was said- living criminals can make no profit from thier crime- it should go for thier estate as well- no widows or anyone should be making money on it either- - but once that is gone- the victims and the perp both have had thier legal and moral rights taken care of, hopefully - when someone wants to market a house as "bonny and clyde lived here" - that is overly intrusive to business and commerce, big time.

3. On a scale of 1 to 10, where would you rate Cornyn’s legislation compared to other issues like immigration, energy policy, etc.?

Negative one million. He should be embarrased publically or something for his roll, and it should be dropped.

Questions for debate:

1. Do you agree with John Cornyn’s proposed legislation? Why or why not?
No. This is much like Nazi memorabilia. Some collect it for historical significance others just to (potentially) make money if the value rises later.

Unless the objects in question unduly “glorify” the criminal or his actions I see no reason to have this legislation.

2. Does the proposed bill restrict “freedom of expression”?

yes

3. On a scale of 1 to 10, where would you rate Cornyn’s legislation compared to other issues like immigration, energy policy, etc.?
1