Full Version: Celebration Violence, Juneteenth and such...
From Tammy Bruce:
On O'Reilly Factor Tonight About Juneteenth Violence
Probably about :30 past the hour or so. The segment is about the lack of coverage of violence at three Juneteenth celebrations. There has been a few newspaper stories, but nothing really extensive. My point was the media, like everyone else, has been made afraid to discuss issues that involve race. Yet, ignoring violence like this. committed primarily by young people, further isolates communities. The real racism here is not discussing violence involving Americans who happen to be black, but in ignoring serious social issues and the continuing despair in the inner city.
I brought up the fact that at gay pride festivals, where you have the same dynamic of thousands of people drinking, partying, live entertainment, etc, people don't kill each other, and bystanders aren't attacked. The man they had opposite me, some talk show host from Oregon, started out with some classic homophobia, about homosexuals and pedophilia, and then went on to argue that talking about this was some sort of conspiracy to make black people look bad, or something of that sort.
I'll tell you, the ignorance out there is astounding. For those of you not familiar with the Juneteenth violence in Austin, Milwaukee and Syracuse (and many of you won't be because the EM isn't covering it), here are some links.
Man killed by crowd outside Juneteenth festivities
Violence at Milwaukee Juneteenth Day
Juneteenth board discusses violence at festival
She raises some interesting issues, but I don't know if she went far enough. Not only is there Juneteenth, but you also have Cinco de Mayo, Mardi Gras, St. Patricks, and the ever popular Championship Celebrations. Not only do different festivals have different levels of violence as a generalization, but even different Championships, both across cities and across different sports.
1) What differences in dynamics result in violence being common at some of these celebratory festivals and rare at others?
2) Is the media treating these outbreaks of violence fairly, or is it, as Tammy argues, biased in selection and treatment of the stories?
On O'Reilly Factor Tonight About Juneteenth Violence
Probably about :30 past the hour or so. The segment is about the lack of coverage of violence at three Juneteenth celebrations. There has been a few newspaper stories, but nothing really extensive. My point was the media, like everyone else, has been made afraid to discuss issues that involve race. Yet, ignoring violence like this. committed primarily by young people, further isolates communities. The real racism here is not discussing violence involving Americans who happen to be black, but in ignoring serious social issues and the continuing despair in the inner city.
I brought up the fact that at gay pride festivals, where you have the same dynamic of thousands of people drinking, partying, live entertainment, etc, people don't kill each other, and bystanders aren't attacked. The man they had opposite me, some talk show host from Oregon, started out with some classic homophobia, about homosexuals and pedophilia, and then went on to argue that talking about this was some sort of conspiracy to make black people look bad, or something of that sort.
I'll tell you, the ignorance out there is astounding. For those of you not familiar with the Juneteenth violence in Austin, Milwaukee and Syracuse (and many of you won't be because the EM isn't covering it), here are some links.
Man killed by crowd outside Juneteenth festivities
Violence at Milwaukee Juneteenth Day
Juneteenth board discusses violence at festival
She raises some interesting issues, but I don't know if she went far enough. Not only is there Juneteenth, but you also have Cinco de Mayo, Mardi Gras, St. Patricks, and the ever popular Championship Celebrations. Not only do different festivals have different levels of violence as a generalization, but even different Championships, both across cities and across different sports.
Questions for Debate:
1) What differences in dynamics result in violence being common at some of these celebratory festivals and rare at others?
2) Is the media treating these outbreaks of violence fairly, or is it, as Tammy argues, biased in selection and treatment of the stories?
QUOTE(Bikerdad @ Jun 22 2007, 01:05 AM) 
From Tammy Bruce:
On O'Reilly Factor Tonight About Juneteenth Violence
Probably about :30 past the hour or so. The segment is about the lack of coverage of violence at three Juneteenth celebrations. There has been a few newspaper stories, but nothing really extensive. My point was the media, like everyone else, has been made afraid to discuss issues that involve race. Yet, ignoring violence like this. committed primarily by young people, further isolates communities. The real racism here is not discussing violence involving Americans who happen to be black, but in ignoring serious social issues and the continuing despair in the inner city.
I brought up the fact that at gay pride festivals, where you have the same dynamic of thousands of people drinking, partying, live entertainment, etc, people don't kill each other, and bystanders aren't attacked. The man they had opposite me, some talk show host from Oregon, started out with some classic homophobia, about homosexuals and pedophilia, and then went on to argue that talking about this was some sort of conspiracy to make black people look bad, or something of that sort.
I'll tell you, the ignorance out there is astounding. For those of you not familiar with the Juneteenth violence in Austin, Milwaukee and Syracuse (and many of you won't be because the EM isn't covering it), here are some links.
Man killed by crowd outside Juneteenth festivities
Violence at Milwaukee Juneteenth Day
Juneteenth board discusses violence at festival
She raises some interesting issues, but I don't know if she went far enough. Not only is there Juneteenth, but you also have Cinco de Mayo, Mardi Gras, St. Patricks, and the ever popular Championship Celebrations. Not only do different festivals have different levels of violence as a generalization, but even different Championships, both across cities and across different sports.
1) What differences in dynamics result in violence being common at some of these celebratory festivals and rare at others?
On O'Reilly Factor Tonight About Juneteenth Violence
Probably about :30 past the hour or so. The segment is about the lack of coverage of violence at three Juneteenth celebrations. There has been a few newspaper stories, but nothing really extensive. My point was the media, like everyone else, has been made afraid to discuss issues that involve race. Yet, ignoring violence like this. committed primarily by young people, further isolates communities. The real racism here is not discussing violence involving Americans who happen to be black, but in ignoring serious social issues and the continuing despair in the inner city.
I brought up the fact that at gay pride festivals, where you have the same dynamic of thousands of people drinking, partying, live entertainment, etc, people don't kill each other, and bystanders aren't attacked. The man they had opposite me, some talk show host from Oregon, started out with some classic homophobia, about homosexuals and pedophilia, and then went on to argue that talking about this was some sort of conspiracy to make black people look bad, or something of that sort.
I'll tell you, the ignorance out there is astounding. For those of you not familiar with the Juneteenth violence in Austin, Milwaukee and Syracuse (and many of you won't be because the EM isn't covering it), here are some links.
Man killed by crowd outside Juneteenth festivities
Violence at Milwaukee Juneteenth Day
Juneteenth board discusses violence at festival
She raises some interesting issues, but I don't know if she went far enough. Not only is there Juneteenth, but you also have Cinco de Mayo, Mardi Gras, St. Patricks, and the ever popular Championship Celebrations. Not only do different festivals have different levels of violence as a generalization, but even different Championships, both across cities and across different sports.
Questions for Debate:
1) What differences in dynamics result in violence being common at some of these celebratory festivals and rare at others?
Violence is no more common at Juneteenth celebrations than at any other event where crowds are large. The three incidencts in question are unrelated. The media incorrectly reported the incident in Austin, where there was no crowd violence. Three or four men attacked the driver of a car that hit a little boy (who was incorrectly reported as a little girl.)
QUOTE
2) Is the media treating these outbreaks of violence fairly, or is it, as Tammy argues, biased in selection and treatment of the stories?
The media, in the case of the Austin story, did a sloppy job reporting the actual incident, getting the details wrong regarding both the perpetrators and the victims. Right Wing fake journalists are trying to make more out of this than there is, and this meme is being pushed hard on all White Supremacist sites, such as Stormwatch, etc.
Google "juneteenth violence," and see how many hate sites you get.
1) What differences in dynamics result in violence being common at some of these celebratory festivals and rare at others?
I really do not know. I can't say why violence is prevelant at some events and not at others. Looking at the Championship celebrations it amazes me that people will riot when a team wins. Or why certain festivals or celebrations in one area will be completely peaceful while the same celebration elsewhere will experience group violence.
2) Is the media treating these outbreaks of violence fairly, or is it, as Tammy argues, biased in selection and treatment of the stories?
I think they are fair. If St Patricks day celebration spark violence in different locales the media will cover it. The local news media covered these stories objectively, and corrected errors as needed. Because a racist site chooses to use the story to promote their agenda does not mean that legimate local stations, or the national media, is doing the same or it is not something worthy of discussion.
I really do not know. I can't say why violence is prevelant at some events and not at others. Looking at the Championship celebrations it amazes me that people will riot when a team wins. Or why certain festivals or celebrations in one area will be completely peaceful while the same celebration elsewhere will experience group violence.
2) Is the media treating these outbreaks of violence fairly, or is it, as Tammy argues, biased in selection and treatment of the stories?
I think they are fair. If St Patricks day celebration spark violence in different locales the media will cover it. The local news media covered these stories objectively, and corrected errors as needed. Because a racist site chooses to use the story to promote their agenda does not mean that legimate local stations, or the national media, is doing the same or it is not something worthy of discussion.
QUOTE(fbwc)
Violence is no more common at Juneteenth celebrations than at any other event where crowds are large.
Are you sure? I only ask because, as noted by Tammy Bruce, I've never heard of any significant violence at Gay Pride events. Nor at the ultimate in 21st Century hippieness, Burning Man. Nor at the celebrations for the Americas Cup winner. 
Nor at 4th of July celebrations.QUOTE
The media, in the case of the Austin story, did a sloppy job reporting the actual incident, getting the details wrong regarding both the perpetrators and the victims
You fault the media? Why? Because they reported what the police told them? Or perhaps simply because discrediting the messenger enables you to discredit the message? To ignore the questions?
From the news report I linked:
QUOTE
Note that earlier versions of this story stated that the child hit by the vehicle was a young girl based in initial information from police. We now know that the child was a boy. - Editor
Austin police say a crowd anywhere from two to 20 people attacked and killed a man who had been riding in a vehicle that struck a child.
Police say the group set upon David Rivas Morales, 40, on Tuesday night after he got out of the car and tried to stop an attack on the driver. He was repeatedly punched and kicked and died at the hospital.
Austin police say a crowd anywhere from two to 20 people attacked and killed a man who had been riding in a vehicle that struck a child.
Police say the group set upon David Rivas Morales, 40, on Tuesday night after he got out of the car and tried to stop an attack on the driver. He was repeatedly punched and kicked and died at the hospital.
QUOTE
Right Wing fake journalists are trying to make more out of this than there is, and this meme is being pushed hard on all White Supremacist sites, such as Stormwatch, etc.
"fake journalists"? If you can back up your claims that there are no higher rates of violence at Juneteenth than at other similar celebrations, then perhaps you'll have some standing to challenge their credibility. Otherwise, it sounds like you're simply falling into exactly the same conundrum that Ms. Bruce is questioning. BTW, are you accusing Tammy Bruce of being a white supremacist? That would be rich!****************************************
1) What differences in dynamics result in violence being common at some of these celebratory festivals and rare at others?
I think the differences are primarily two. First, class. The violence is much more common at events or celebrations primarily attended by folks on the lower end of the socio-economic ladder. Second, its primarily a dynamic of groups that have been suckled on the teat of victimization. Its the combination of these two. Toss in the additional factor of age, and voila, greatly increased risk of violence.
2) Is the media treating these outbreaks of violence fairly, or is it, as Tammy argues, biased in selection and treatment of the stories? I think they're somewhat biased, in that they aren't bothering to connect the dots, and sticking their fingers in their ears while saying "nah nahh nah nahh na" whenever somebody says "hmmm, I wonder if there are any commonalities?" I don't think its necessarily a racial thing, so much as a case of giving a pass to the "oppressed."
I knew someone would bring this story up...
I'm going to enjoy this...
Common, you mean like more than once, yea often?
You'd need to substantiate that.
Concerning the Juneteenth story fbwc was right that was blown many ways out of proportion. I heard the litany of corrections this morning on NPR. Let's look.
"Juneteenth mob beats man" turns into four guys from a crowd of 12 beat man who hit child with car blocks away from celebration. Issues unrelated.
The media reported what the police told them, the police reported what the 911 caller told them.
Both were wrong.
An over eagerness to see rampaging crowds of angry black people maybe?
Cubs fans are suckled on the teat of victimization....
I guess that makes sense.
I'm going to enjoy this...
QUOTE(Bikerdad)
What differences in dynamics result in violence being common at some of these celebratory festivals and rare at others?
Common, you mean like more than once, yea often?
You'd need to substantiate that.
Concerning the Juneteenth story fbwc was right that was blown many ways out of proportion. I heard the litany of corrections this morning on NPR. Let's look.
"Juneteenth mob beats man" turns into four guys from a crowd of 12 beat man who hit child with car blocks away from celebration. Issues unrelated.
QUOTE(Bikerdad)
Is the media treating these outbreaks of violence fairly, or is it, as Tammy argues, biased in selection and treatment of the stories?
The media reported what the police told them, the police reported what the 911 caller told them.
Both were wrong.
An over eagerness to see rampaging crowds of angry black people maybe?
QUOTE(Bikerdad)
I think the differences are primarily two. First, class. The violence is much more common at events or celebrations primarily attended by folks on the lower end of the socio-economic ladder. Second, its primarily a dynamic of groups that have been suckled on the teat of victimization. Its the combination of these two. Toss in the additional factor of age, and voila, greatly increased risk of violence.
Cubs fans are suckled on the teat of victimization....
I guess that makes sense.
We had a Juneteenth celebration here last weekend. Nobody got beaten, shot, stabbed or molested. Sorry, guess we're just not newsworthy here in Ohio.
Tammy Bruce is just another right-wing nutjob whose sole distinction is she claims to be a liberal and is an out lesbian, but shills for Faux News and spends her waking life babbling endlessly about how liberals are destroying America. In other words, she's just another fizzy bottle of Ann Coulter Light. Dishing out vitriol and playing the race card for fun and profit and the amusement of race-baiting, mouth breathing morons.
Nothing to see here. Just another lame "Let's scare the hell out of White folks" race-baiting thread which is a growth industry here on
Tammy Bruce is just another right-wing nutjob whose sole distinction is she claims to be a liberal and is an out lesbian, but shills for Faux News and spends her waking life babbling endlessly about how liberals are destroying America. In other words, she's just another fizzy bottle of Ann Coulter Light. Dishing out vitriol and playing the race card for fun and profit and the amusement of race-baiting, mouth breathing morons.
Nothing to see here. Just another lame "Let's scare the hell out of White folks" race-baiting thread which is a growth industry here on
As a Texan, I've been around "Juneteenth celebrations" all my life. It is after all, the celebration of the Emancipation Proclamation reaching Texas two years after Lincoln issued it.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa38...105/ai_n8944663
I've seen Black people celebrating in small groups at home and in larger groups in public parks. I can't remember any problem developing in Fort Worth.
QUOTE
There are numerous accounts of how the Texas celebration started. All accounts agree that two years after Abraham Lincoln's 1863 Emancipation Proclamation, Texas slaves learned they were free. At this point the stories diverge.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa38...105/ai_n8944663
I've seen Black people celebrating in small groups at home and in larger groups in public parks. I can't remember any problem developing in Fort Worth.
QUOTE(Bikerdad @ Jun 22 2007, 03:11 PM)
QUOTE(fbwc)
Violence is no more common at Juneteenth celebrations than at any other event where crowds are large.
Are you sure? I only ask because, as noted by Tammy Bruce, I've never heard of any significant violence at Gay Pride events. Nor at the ultimate in 21st Century hippieness, Burning Man. Nor at the celebrations for the Americas Cup winner. Nor at 4th of July celebrations.Yes. I am quite sure. The fact that you have never heard of something doesn't make it any less so.
Violence Hits Uptown Show Again
Scattered violence in uptown Charlotte following an Independence Day fireworks show drew dozens of police officers -- some in riot gear -- who confronted crowds setting off fireworks and starting fights around ...
I found that in only moments. Most of the stories from last year aren't so easy to find. Luckily, we're very close to this year's celebrations, so I'll be more than happy to update you. Where there are large crowds of any color, there is potential for violence. There is no need to pretend Juneteenth holds some special threat. In fact, doing so is ludicrous.
QUOTE(fbwc)
The media, in the case of the Austin story, did a sloppy job reporting the actual incident, getting the details wrong regarding both the perpetrators and the victims
QUOTE(bikerdad)
You fault the media? Why? Because they reported what the police told them? Or perhaps simply because discrediting the messenger enables you to discredit the message? To ignore the questions?
From the news report I linked:
From the news report I linked:
QUOTE
Note that earlier versions of this story stated that the child hit by the vehicle was a young girl based in initial information from police. We now know that the child was a boy. - Editor
Austin police say a crowd anywhere from two to 20 people attacked and killed a man who had been riding in a vehicle that struck a child.
Police say the group set upon David Rivas Morales, 40, on Tuesday night after he got out of the car and tried to stop an attack on the driver. He was repeatedly punched and kicked and died at the hospital.
Austin police say a crowd anywhere from two to 20 people attacked and killed a man who had been riding in a vehicle that struck a child.
Police say the group set upon David Rivas Morales, 40, on Tuesday night after he got out of the car and tried to stop an attack on the driver. He was repeatedly punched and kicked and died at the hospital.
fbwc: I am not in the habit of trying to ignore questions, or discredit anyone based on false pretenses, and I have no idea why you have insinuated that I have. This seems like borderline flaming to me, and I'll thank you not to do so in the future.
This story was run in numerous press outlets yesterday, including Forbes:
The HEADLINE says:
Crowd Kills Man After Car Hits Child.
The STORY says:
Chovanetz said witnesses told police that three or four men attacked Morales, knocking him to the ground. A man got out of another vehicle and hit Morales again, Chovanetz said.
Now, I don't know what you call that, but I call it sloppy journalism when the headline and the story say two different things. I feel I am being dead-on accurate with that call, and welcome any and all to challenge it.
QUOTE(bikerdad)
QUOTE(fbwc)
Right Wing fake journalists are trying to make more out of this than there is, and this meme is being pushed hard on all White Supremacist sites, such as Stormwatch, etc.
"fake journalists"? If you can back up your claims that there are no higher rates of violence at Juneteenth than at other similar celebrations, then perhaps you'll have some standing to challenge their credibility. Otherwise, it sounds like you're simply falling into exactly the same conundrum that Ms. Bruce is questioning. BTW, are you accusing Tammy Bruce of being a white supremacist? That would be rich!I am not accusing Tammy Bruce of being a White Supremacist. I am definitely calling her a fake journalist. She is not a journalist. She hosts a talk show. I hereby accuse all talk show hosts of being fake journalists. Bill O'Reilly, America's premier fake journalist, is also pushing the same angle as Bruce.
I am aware of absolutely no journalism credential held by Tammy Bruce. And I can reference a quote by her that does lend itself to being at least a little bit biased, regarding race.
In a Nov. 17 story the Associated Press reported that, in refusing to appear on a TV talk show devoted to the Simpson case, Bruce told a producer she did not want to "argue with a bunch of Black women" and made other inflammatory comments that Bruce told the AP were inaccurate or taken out of context.
But I do not want to make my case by simply discrediting Tammy Bruce's credentials for presenting a story.
I further wish to make it clear that the "Juneteenth Violence meme is being very carefully promoted by actual White Supremacists. The hate sites are all abuzz over this. Stormfront, Vanguard, Council of Conservative Citizens, etc.
QUOTE
I am not accusing Tammy Bruce of being a White Supremacist. I am definitely calling her a fake journalist. She is not a journalist. She hosts a talk show. I hereby accuse all talk show hosts of being fake journalists. Bill O'Reilly, America's premier fake journalist, is also pushing the same angle as Bruce.
I don't know if Tammy Bruce calls herself a journalist. Bill O'Reilly does not describe his show as news. He also is not a fake journalist, as you claim. He worked for years as a network journalist. Most talk show hosts, like Alan Colmes, do not present themsleves as journalist in the sense you are presenting. They present themselves as pundists, editorialist, opinion journalist, etc and many I occassionally hear admit they entertainment as well.
QUOTE
Are you sure? I only ask because, as noted by Tammy Bruce, I've never heard of any significant violence at Gay Pride events. Nor at the ultimate in 21st Century hippieness, Burning Man. Nor at the celebrations for the Americas Cup winner. Nor at 4th of July celebrations.
Nor at 4th of July celebrations.The "hippies" and their young can be just as destructive, don't kid yourself. Woodstock '99 featured rioting and looting. As for the gay group, one right wing site has a story of people complaining about an angry gay mob that supposedly threatened them. Yes, these kinds of things happen in large groups, no matter what the group is.
QUOTE
I think the differences are primarily two. First, class. The violence is much more common at events or celebrations primarily attended by folks on the lower end of the socio-economic ladder. Second, its primarily a dynamic of groups that have been suckled on the teat of victimization. Its the combination of these two. Toss in the additional factor of age, and voila, greatly increased risk of violence.
I don't agree with the characterization of class at all. Middle class shoppers have been known to trample over one another in order to shop during "Black Friday." And don't even get me started about parental violence at Little League games. The role of "victimization" doesn't play a role in the examples I gave, nor of the Juneteenth incidences. The simple fact of the matter is that when you have large gatherings of people, you will have a higher rate of violence, or at least, the possibility of it.
QUOTE
2) Is the media treating these outbreaks of violence fairly, or is it, as Tammy argues, biased in selection and treatment of the stories? I think they're somewhat biased, in that they aren't bothering to connect the dots, and sticking their fingers in their ears while saying "nah nahh nah nahh na" whenever somebody says "hmmm, I wonder if there are any commonalities?" I don't think its necessarily a racial thing, so much as a case of giving a pass to the "oppressed."
I'm not certain how it can be proven the mainstream media ducked it. Even before you created this thread, I had read about the stories on CBSNews.com and other sites. If there is a bias in news selection, it definitely isn't in this case-I found the story very easily just by finding the news page a few days ago.
QUOTE(woody @ Jun 23 2007, 12:12 AM)
QUOTE
I am not accusing Tammy Bruce of being a White Supremacist. I am definitely calling her a fake journalist. She is not a journalist. She hosts a talk show. I hereby accuse all talk show hosts of being fake journalists. Bill O'Reilly, America's premier fake journalist, is also pushing the same angle as Bruce.
I don't know if Tammy Bruce calls herself a journalist. Bill O'Reilly does not describe his show as news. He also is not a fake journalist, as you claim. He worked for years as a network journalist. Most talk show hosts, like Alan Colmes, do not present themsleves as journalist in the sense you are presenting. They present themselves as pundists, editorialist, opinion journalist, etc and many I occassionally hear admit they entertainment as well.
I don't really see how this is a thread to debate whether my own personal characterization of Bill O'Reilly, Tammy Bruce, all talk show hosts and opinion columnists as "fake journalists" is accurate or not. Perhaps I should more truthfully characterize them as "people who are sometimes mistaken for journalists."
Technically, O'Reilly is a journalist, as he holds a Masters Degree in Broadcast Journalism from Boston's University, but I would willingly submit that he gave up any principles he learned there a very long time ago. He also used to brag that he won two Peabody awards, but he didn't, however Inside Edition did earn a George Polk Award a year or so after O'Reilly left. I honestly believe that any show Bill O'Reilly leaves deserves to win some kind of award or another.
Eyewitness testimony
This could only happen among a demographic that has been taught disrespect for law and order. The victims of their sick deeds are usually also minorities. A pox lays upon their house that cannot be justified or ignored.
QUOTE
“I'd say about 25 to 30 people were jumping on this guy, hitting him everywhere, kicking, stomping on him,” Marcus Morris said.
Morris was using a payphone just a few feet away and saw it all.
“It looked like a mad house, honestly,” Morris said. “I can't believe it got so out of control. It started maybe with one or two guys and it seemed like people were jumping out of thin air. I mean, they were coming from everywhere.”
Morris was using a payphone just a few feet away and saw it all.
“It looked like a mad house, honestly,” Morris said. “I can't believe it got so out of control. It started maybe with one or two guys and it seemed like people were jumping out of thin air. I mean, they were coming from everywhere.”
This could only happen among a demographic that has been taught disrespect for law and order. The victims of their sick deeds are usually also minorities. A pox lays upon their house that cannot be justified or ignored.
QUOTE(deng @ Jun 23 2007, 05:03 PM)
Eyewitness testimony
This could only happen among a demographic that has been taught disrespect for law and order. The victims of their sick deeds are usually also minorities. A pox lays upon their house that cannot be justified or ignored.
QUOTE
“I'd say about 25 to 30 people were jumping on this guy, hitting him everywhere, kicking, stomping on him,” Marcus Morris said.
Morris was using a payphone just a few feet away and saw it all.
“It looked like a mad house, honestly,” Morris said. “I can't believe it got so out of control. It started maybe with one or two guys and it seemed like people were jumping out of thin air. I mean, they were coming from everywhere.”
Morris was using a payphone just a few feet away and saw it all.
“It looked like a mad house, honestly,” Morris said. “I can't believe it got so out of control. It started maybe with one or two guys and it seemed like people were jumping out of thin air. I mean, they were coming from everywhere.”
This could only happen among a demographic that has been taught disrespect for law and order. The victims of their sick deeds are usually also minorities. A pox lays upon their house that cannot be justified or ignored.
deng,
Bikerdad provided four links involving incidents in Miwaukee, Wisconsin and Austin, Texas. I don't find Marcus Morris name in any of those links. Would you please provide a link. Some of us like to know the source of information and have the option of reading it in context.
QUOTE(deng @ Jun 23 2007, 06:03 PM)
This could only happen among a demographic that has been taught disrespect for law and order. The victims of their sick deeds are usually also minorities. A pox lays upon their house that cannot be justified or ignored.
Speaking of a demographic that engages in sick deeds, isn't it odd that the demographic that delights in wagging their fingers at the degenerate actions of others ignores the even worse degenerate actions of their own group?
Undercover police smash paedophile ring posting live abuse online
· 31 children worldwide rescued, 15 in Britain
· Film files seized include babies being raped
Sandra Laville, crime correspondent
Tuesday June 19, 2007
The Guardian
Thirty-one children and babies who were repeatedly abused live for an internet chatroom have been rescued from homes in the UK and abroad following the biggest international investigation so far into an online paedophile ring.
Officers from Britain's Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre worked for 10 months with detectives from 35 other countries to identify and rescue the children, who were being abused and filmed live for the thousands of members of the chatroom. More than 15 of the children and babies were found in Britain and handed over to the care of social services.
The international inquiry, in which specialist detectives with experience in counter-terrorism posed as paedophiles online, led yesterday to the jailing of Timothy David Martyn Cox, the British "godfather" of the paedophile ring.
Cox, 27, who lived at his parents' farmhouse in Buxhall, Suffolk, used the pseudonym Son of God to run the chatroom Kids the Light of Our Lives, a forum on which paedophiles shared live images of the abuse of children.
Unlike many paedophile rings online, the abuse was carried out in real time and placed live online. It was the knowledge that so many children and babies were at risk that prompted officers to move quickly. link
Anybody want to take bets that the majority of these sick, evil degenerate freaks and their victims happen to be members of the "majority" demographic? Nah, didn't think so. A few unruly members of a "minority" group behave badly at a public festival and we get dissertations about "its primarily a dynamic of groups that have been suckled on the teat of victimization."
What a keen observation in social pathology and stratification! Never mind that it was pulled right out of thin air.
So what are we to conclude about the several thousand depraved members of the "majority" group who confine their bad behaviour to secretive websites, clandestine chatrooms and victimizing two-month old infants in real-time video?
Maybe that they're the scum of the earth?
Clean up your own backyard before worrying about your neighbors.
QUOTE(deng @ Jun 23 2007, 06:03 PM)
Eyewitness testimony
This could only happen among a demographic that has been taught disrespect for law and order. The victims of their sick deeds are usually also minorities. A pox lays upon their house that cannot be justified or ignored.
QUOTE
“I'd say about 25 to 30 people were jumping on this guy, hitting him everywhere, kicking, stomping on him,” Marcus Morris said.
Morris was using a payphone just a few feet away and saw it all.
“It looked like a mad house, honestly,” Morris said. “I can't believe it got so out of control. It started maybe with one or two guys and it seemed like people were jumping out of thin air. I mean, they were coming from everywhere.”
Morris was using a payphone just a few feet away and saw it all.
“It looked like a mad house, honestly,” Morris said. “I can't believe it got so out of control. It started maybe with one or two guys and it seemed like people were jumping out of thin air. I mean, they were coming from everywhere.”
This could only happen among a demographic that has been taught disrespect for law and order. The victims of their sick deeds are usually also minorities. A pox lays upon their house that cannot be justified or ignored.
This is strange. In This Free Republic post, that blurb is word for word as quoted above, and references the story on keyetv.com as the source. In this story by Rebecca Taylor on keyetv, that same blurb is identical.
In this story on keyetv.com reported by Gregg Watson, says
Witnesses say the suspects fled the scene in a maroon or red four-door Buick Roadmaster. Detectives are not ruling out that the car could be a Cadillac, which is similar in appearance.
Now how is it possible that 25 or 30 people fled in a Buick Roadmaster? I mean, the backseat is roomy, but c'mon!
With inconsistencies that glaring reported by two reporters on the same date, from the same station, it is very difficult to know what actually happened, however both stories were filed June 20th, and later stories completely dispute the 25 or 30 people report.
This is from today:
A fundraiser was held Saturday for the man who was beaten to death on the streets of East Austin on Tuesday night.
Several people attacked and killed David Morales, who was a passenger in a car that accidentally hit a 2-year-old boy.
The money raised will go Morales' funeral expenses.
Now, it appears that more recent information supports what I was saying earlier, that it was not a crowd of 25 or 30 people, as earlier reported in error, but 3.
Now, my question to deng is, which demographic has been taught to disrespect law and order?
To me, that statement appears ridiculous, and bigoted.
Can someone point out to me how I am wrong?
QUOTE(nighttimer @ Jun 23 2007, 08:57 PM)
QUOTE(deng @ Jun 23 2007, 06:03 PM)
This could only happen among a demographic that has been taught disrespect for law and order. The victims of their sick deeds are usually also minorities. A pox lays upon their house that cannot be justified or ignored.
A few unruly members of a "minority" group behave badly at a public festival and we get dissertations about "its primarily a dynamic of groups that have been suckled on the teat of victimization."
What a keen observation in social pathology and stratification! Never mind that it was pulled right out of thin air.
So what are we to conclude about the several thousand depraved members of the "majority" group who confine their bad behaviour to secretive websites, clandestine chatrooms and victimizing two-month old infants in real-time video?
Maybe that they're the scum of the earth?
Clean up your own backyard before worrying about your neighbors.
There is a demographic group I have a real problem with. They are not any certain religion, age, or even necessarily race, although you would think they would be. They are called White Supremacists, and they are very popular on the internet. Now, I'm not saying that anyone who posts on THIS website is a member, or even could be construed as one. They are sort of a fringe group, but their most popular tactic appears to be going mainstream. (possibly due to the fact that they are instructed to join as many message boards as possible, and post about it) That tactic is to report crimes by members of "certain demographic groups." (I'm sure you can guess just which demographic groups!) They post these crimes, and then infer that because they happen, it in some way reflects on the groups themselves, which are actually artifical classifications, and have nothing to do with individuals at all.
Thus, if a certain kind of person who looks like me, and is the same age, etc, does something wrong, it is, I guess, supposed to show that "people like me" are bad.
This kind of thinking should be leaving us, as we progress as a society, but those who cling to it find the internet to be a powerful tool for getting around the "PC Police" who would not tolerate it openly. And when used to play on people's fears, it can be most effective.
I have a real problem with this. I do not like it. It makes me mad. I've been told it makes me unreasonable, and makes me say bad things.
On this message board, I am not allowed to do this. This is one of the reasons I joined. I want very badly to tackle this problem using logic and reason, instead of simply "letting it all out," and coming across as whatever it is people think I come across as.
But I would like very much for someone on this thread to tackle what you mentioned above; that when a small group of a certain minority misbehaves, it is in some way indicative of a problem within that minority, as opposed to simply a problem of human beings in general.
And I would like them to be very specific. Do I need to start a special thread about that, or has this topic moved into that area yet?
Signed,
Curious in a multiracial society
QUOTE(fbwc @ Jun 23 2007, 10:21 PM)
There is a demographic group I have a real problem with. They are not any certain religion, age, or even necessarily race, although you would think they would be. They are called White Supremacists, and they are very popular on the internet. Now, I'm not saying that anyone who posts on THIS website is a member, or even could be construed as one. They are sort of a fringe group, but their most popular tactic appears to be going mainstream. (possibly due to the fact that they are instructed to join as many message boards as possible, and post about it) That tactic is to report crimes by members of "certain demographic groups." (I'm sure you can guess just which demographic groups!) They post these crimes, and then infer that because they happen, it in some way reflects on the groups themselves, which are actually artifical classifications, and have nothing to do with individuals at all.
Thus, if a certain kind of person who looks like me, and is the same age, etc, does something wrong, it is, I guess, supposed to show that "people like me" are bad.
This kind of thinking should be leaving us, as we progress as a society, but those who cling to it find the internet to be a powerful tool for getting around the "PC Police" who would not tolerate it openly. And when used to play on people's fears, it can be most effective.
I have a real problem with this. I do not like it. It makes me mad. I've been told it makes me unreasonable, and makes me say bad things.
On this message board, I am not allowed to do this. This is one of the reasons I joined. I want very badly to tackle this problem using logic and reason, instead of simply "letting it all out," and coming across as whatever it is people think I come across as.
But I would like very much for someone on this thread to tackle what you mentioned above; that when a small group of a certain minority misbehaves, it is in some way indicative of a problem within that minority, as opposed to simply a problem of human beings in general.
And I would like them to be very specific. Do I need to start a special thread about that, or has this topic moved into that area yet?
Signed,
Curious in a multiracial society
Thus, if a certain kind of person who looks like me, and is the same age, etc, does something wrong, it is, I guess, supposed to show that "people like me" are bad.
This kind of thinking should be leaving us, as we progress as a society, but those who cling to it find the internet to be a powerful tool for getting around the "PC Police" who would not tolerate it openly. And when used to play on people's fears, it can be most effective.
I have a real problem with this. I do not like it. It makes me mad. I've been told it makes me unreasonable, and makes me say bad things.
On this message board, I am not allowed to do this. This is one of the reasons I joined. I want very badly to tackle this problem using logic and reason, instead of simply "letting it all out," and coming across as whatever it is people think I come across as.
But I would like very much for someone on this thread to tackle what you mentioned above; that when a small group of a certain minority misbehaves, it is in some way indicative of a problem within that minority, as opposed to simply a problem of human beings in general.
And I would like them to be very specific. Do I need to start a special thread about that, or has this topic moved into that area yet?
Signed,
Curious in a multiracial society
The illegal, immoral and illicit actions of a few should not be used to stigmatize the many, but it happens all the time. People find it comforting to find something that makes someone else look terrible. So if deng wants to denigrate unamed minorities he can so without being labeled a bigot by being vague and not naming names.
Of course, we all know WHO deng is talking about here. Nod, nod. Nudge, nudge. Wink, wink. It would just be impolite to name names.
The purpose of threads like this isn't to shine a light on criminality by individuals. The intent is to paint an entire race with a broad brush. No,
doesn't have many overt racists among its members (though they have been more known to drop by every so often. I'll send you a PM with the gory details), but because overt racism is socially frowned upon, that doesn't mean subtle and hidden racism have vanished.You don't need a "Whites Only" sign hanging out in the open to know what time it is.
I find it interesting that no one has taken issue with those who offered up cases of other "demographic" groups engaging in the same kind of behavior. I'm curious, why the silence? Could it be that ascribing negative characteristics based upon the actions of a few is a generalization, albeit a selective generalization? Nighttimer gave a great example, yet I don't see people jumping in on his post or my previous one. Interesting.
Nighttimer gave a great example, yet I don't see people jumping in on his post or my previous one. Interesting.
QUOTE(BoF @ Jun 23 2007, 10:27 PM)
QUOTE(deng @ Jun 23 2007, 05:03 PM)
Eyewitness testimony
This could only happen among a demographic that has been taught disrespect for law and order. The victims of their sick deeds are usually also minorities. A pox lays upon their house that cannot be justified or ignored.
QUOTE
“I'd say about 25 to 30 people were jumping on this guy, hitting him everywhere, kicking, stomping on him,” Marcus Morris said.
Morris was using a payphone just a few feet away and saw it all.
“It looked like a mad house, honestly,” Morris said. “I can't believe it got so out of control. It started maybe with one or two guys and it seemed like people were jumping out of thin air. I mean, they were coming from everywhere.”
Morris was using a payphone just a few feet away and saw it all.
“It looked like a mad house, honestly,” Morris said. “I can't believe it got so out of control. It started maybe with one or two guys and it seemed like people were jumping out of thin air. I mean, they were coming from everywhere.”
This could only happen among a demographic that has been taught disrespect for law and order. The victims of their sick deeds are usually also minorities. A pox lays upon their house that cannot be justified or ignored.
deng,
Bikerdad provided four links involving incidents in Miwaukee, Wisconsin and Austin, Texas. I don't find Marcus Morris name in any of those links. Would you please provide a link. Some of us like to know the source of information and have the option of reading it in context.
http://keyetv.com/topstories/local_story_171110715.html
The word racist is used so often by the left that no one, except a leftist, pays any attention to the word. The leftist definition of racist: 1) anyone who points out ugly facts or actually believes individuals have some actual control over their destiny 2) Anyone who does not vote for a leftist party.
Look at the homicide rate of a specific demographic, excluding gender, and you find what demographic groups have the least respect for law and order. Seldom see 80 year olds involved in mob violence.
QUOTE(deng @ Jun 24 2007, 07:40 AM)
The word racist is used so often by the left that no one, except a leftist, pays any attention to the word. The leftist definition of racist: 1) anyone who points out ugly facts or actually believes individuals have some actual control over their destiny 2) Anyone who does not vote for a leftist party.
I dub thee a racist you unaffiliated dirty liberal!
QUOTE(deng @ Jun 24 2007, 07:40 AM)
Seldom see 80 year olds involved in mob violence.
Um, yeah. You seldom see white and black 80 year olds gather for large celebrations. Coincidence or negative causality?
Here's a Google search about football and baseball fan violence. That's the type of mob violence that immediately comes to mind. Maybe that's because I'm not male and therefore unlikely to be a sports fan. As a bonus, this type of violence is color-blind. Maybe the media has been giving the lawless black community a pass around Juneteenth and similar gatherings compared with other races, but I'd rather someone present media content analysis using a database instead of taking the word of an embarrassed liberal seeking validation from conservatives.
Besides, I gotta make sure Nighttimer keeps voting Democratic, yo. Thanks for the KeyTV.com link, though. If the eye-witness you cited is right about 20 to 25 people jumping on this guy we should hear about how they injured each other in the process of trying to kill the passenger.
QUOTE(Lesly @ Jun 24 2007, 03:20 PM)
QUOTE(deng @ Jun 24 2007, 07:40 AM)
Seldom see 80 year olds involved in mob violence.
Um, yeah. You seldom see 80 year olds in large celebrations. Coincidence?
Here's a Google search about football and baseball fan violence. That's the type of mob violence that immediately comes to mind. Maybe that's because I'm not male and therefore unlikely to be a sports fan. As a bonus, this type of violence is color-blind. Maybe the media has been giving the lawless black community a pass around Juneteenth and similar gatherings compared with other races, but I'd rather someone present media content analysis using a database instead of taking the word of an embarrassed liberal seeking validation from conservatives.
Besides, I got to make sure Nighttimer keeps voting Democratic, yo. Thanks for the KeyTV.com link, though. If the eye-witness you cited is right about 20 to 25 people jumping on this guy we should hear about how they injured each other in the process.
I guess you have never been around a nursing home during a holiday. Yes, old people do gather in groups and celebrate. I dub thee a racist.
Statistics is what I look at. Not isolated incidences. Look on the internet long enough and you could probably find a group of 80 year old cannibals who gummed someone to death., Statistics show that in the US males are more violent than females, the young are more violent than the old, blacks are more violent than whites. That is not a sexist, an ageist or a racist statement. It is the facts. I doubt you can find too many instances of a mob of women beating someone to death either. I guess I'm a sexist when I state males are more violent than females.
Of course, the typical victim when a young black male resorts to violence is another young black male. Not doing something about the problem is racist.
Amazing people have to resort to name-calling on what is suppossed to be a mature debate site.
QUOTE(deng @ Jun 24 2007, 12:33 PM)
Statistics show that in the US males are more violent than females, the young are more violent than the old, blacks are more violent than whites. That is not a sexist, an ageist or a racist statement. It is the facts. I doubt you can find too many instances of a mob of women beating someone to death either. I guess I'm a sexist when I state males are more violent than females.
I can read statistics well enough, Deng. What I can't do, unlike you, is take those statistics and the word of Tammy Bruce that the media plays down black violence. You need database access to make a content analysis from a local news station and/or network and compare coverage to local/FBI crime statistics before you can discuss the "black situation" as presented in the media.
QUOTE(deng @ Jun 24 2007, 12:33 PM)
Amazing people have to resort to name-calling on what is suppossed to be a mature debate site.
Right. Broad brushes like This could only happen among a demographic that has been taught disrespect for law and order. The victims of their sick deeds are usually also minorities isn't name calling, but my burlesque rejoinder is. Poor Deng. Next time I attack you click the Report button on the bottom left-hand side of my post.
P.S. You should give Hayek credit for your quote even if you're using material from later in life when he evolved form interesting economist to conservative hack.
For those with poor reading comprehension skills, I have been focusing on question one, not the second question.
http://news.ncmonline.com/news/view_articl...5a3841a8df9263e
A bunch of right-wing Christians on that link, I guess. Mob violence is most likely to occur among groups where individual violence occurs. If you are a woman who walks into a serial rapist convention you better be well armed.
From the link mentioned above.
I guess that mother is an Aunt Toma.
The sports fan demographic is most likely more violent than the live theater demographic. Hardly ever recall a mob attack at a showing of Romeo and Juliet.
http://news.ncmonline.com/news/view_articl...5a3841a8df9263e
A bunch of right-wing Christians on that link, I guess. Mob violence is most likely to occur among groups where individual violence occurs. If you are a woman who walks into a serial rapist convention you better be well armed.
From the link mentioned above.
QUOTE
The mother of a 19-year son who was shot last year and now goes in an out of a coma was also present to hand out fliers for a vigil she is planning. "I want to the killings to stop. My baby was shot. He was not just another statistic." She said the family moved from West Oakland to Antioch to escape the violence but then she lost her job and so she had to move back to Oakland to live with her sister while her 15-year old daughter moved in with her father. "Crime impacts a whole family," she said.
I guess that mother is an Aunt Toma.
The sports fan demographic is most likely more violent than the live theater demographic. Hardly ever recall a mob attack at a showing of Romeo and Juliet.
Stop with the belittling and overall inflammatory tone.
TOPICS:
1) What differences in dynamics result in violence being common at some of these celebratory festivals and rare at others?
2) Is the media treating these outbreaks of violence fairly, or is it, as Tammy argues, biased in selection and treatment of the stories?
TOPICS:
1) What differences in dynamics result in violence being common at some of these celebratory festivals and rare at others?
2) Is the media treating these outbreaks of violence fairly, or is it, as Tammy argues, biased in selection and treatment of the stories?
The warning signs of a skewed perspective often include leap in logic and "extra-rational" 
conclusions.
For instance.
First the accuracy of the statement has been thoroughly debunked. Of course mob violence doesn't "only" occur in minority communities. or even in groups whose violent crime rates are higher than the national average.
Second the gist of the statement is illogical as well.
It implies that higher rates of violent crime among African-Americans must necessarily be caused by a community that "teaches" disrespect
Classic non-sequiter.
This is unsubstantiated as well.
As for the "racist" moniker, well making blanket unsubstantiated assumption about a racial groups is racist. This debate should reveal whether the label applies.
conclusions.For instance.
QUOTE(deng)
This could only happen among a demographic that has been taught disrespect for law and order.
First the accuracy of the statement has been thoroughly debunked. Of course mob violence doesn't "only" occur in minority communities. or even in groups whose violent crime rates are higher than the national average.
Second the gist of the statement is illogical as well.
It implies that higher rates of violent crime among African-Americans must necessarily be caused by a community that "teaches" disrespect
Classic non-sequiter.
QUOTE(deng)
Mob violence is most likely to occur among groups where individual violence occurs.
This is unsubstantiated as well.
As for the "racist" moniker, well making blanket unsubstantiated assumption about a racial groups is racist. This debate should reveal whether the label applies.
QUOTE(deng @ Jun 24 2007, 12:49 PM)
Mob violence is most likely to occur among groups where individual violence occurs.
We have evolved from "any demographic that has been taught disrepsect for the law" to this. I guess political correctness is a sign of progress, eh?
What evidence do you have to back up this correlation? Do blacks have more large gatherings than whites? And how/when/where/why, exactly, are whites taught to disrespect law and order to sexually abuse children?
QUOTE(DoJ)
While nearly 70% of those serving time for violent crimes against children were white, whites accounted for 40% of those imprisoned for violent crimes against adults.
QUOTE(deng @ Jun 24 2007, 12:49 PM)
The sports fan demographic is most likely more violent than the live theater demographic.
It also doesn't fit neatly into a black or white demographic. Hmm.
"White" and "Black" are false demographics anyway. There are enough people of mixed race in America who don't fit into either, or could be lumped into both to render such classifications obsolete. Furthermore, there is certainly enough individuality among "Blacks" or "Whites" to make it nigh impossible to attribute behavioral specifics to groups this large and undefined, based on statistics.
As for the original questions, I can say no more than I have already proven, and backed up with plenty of links. There is no evidence that the media does in fact show bias in its selection of these stories, and the arguement that there are any dynamics in play that result in violence being more common in one type of large gathering, and not in another.
The only dynamics I can think of is that when large crowds gather, there is always a possibility of violence.
The others appear sketchy, even threadbare, at best.
Statistics are largely meaningless in situations like this. They do not take into account individual circumstances.
I think it is a rule of writing that when you have to qualify a statement as "not racist," or "not sexist," or "not ageist," there is a fairly good possibility that the statement will, in fact, be whatever the qualification said it will not be.
Statistically, I have seen few exceptions.
As for the original questions, I can say no more than I have already proven, and backed up with plenty of links. There is no evidence that the media does in fact show bias in its selection of these stories, and the arguement that there are any dynamics in play that result in violence being more common in one type of large gathering, and not in another.
The only dynamics I can think of is that when large crowds gather, there is always a possibility of violence.
The others appear sketchy, even threadbare, at best.
QUOTE
Statistics show that in the US males are more violent than females, the young are more violent than the old, blacks are more violent than whites. That is not a sexist, an ageist or a racist statement.
Statistics are largely meaningless in situations like this. They do not take into account individual circumstances.
I think it is a rule of writing that when you have to qualify a statement as "not racist," or "not sexist," or "not ageist," there is a fairly good possibility that the statement will, in fact, be whatever the qualification said it will not be.
Statistically, I have seen few exceptions.
QUOTE
I guess you have never been around a nursing home during a holiday. Yes, old people do gather in groups and celebrate. I dub thee a racist.
Statistics is what I look at. Not isolated incidences. Look on the internet long enough and you could probably find a group of 80 year old cannibals who gummed someone to death., Statistics show that in the US males are more violent than females, the young are more violent than the old, blacks are more violent than whites. That is not a sexist, an ageist or a racist statement. It is the facts. I doubt you can find too many instances of a mob of women beating someone to death either. I guess I'm a sexist when I state males are more violent than females.
Of course, the typical victim when a young black male resorts to violence is another young black male. Not doing something about the problem is racist.
Statistics is what I look at. Not isolated incidences. Look on the internet long enough and you could probably find a group of 80 year old cannibals who gummed someone to death., Statistics show that in the US males are more violent than females, the young are more violent than the old, blacks are more violent than whites. That is not a sexist, an ageist or a racist statement. It is the facts. I doubt you can find too many instances of a mob of women beating someone to death either. I guess I'm a sexist when I state males are more violent than females.
Of course, the typical victim when a young black male resorts to violence is another young black male. Not doing something about the problem is racist.
If we are going to discuss
statistics, I'm sure you see a sudden drop in the black rate of violence(since this is what all this has been about all along) as income levels increase. Interestingly enough, I think crime is greater across all racial lines the lower down the economic ladder you go. Why the focus on just "demographics" as opposed to underlying reasons? If people have doubts about motive, it's probably due to that broad categorization which in the realm of research, is known as a *hasty generalization* 
A little statistical information:
Sadly political correctness did not help the 150 to 200 black Americans murdered today, mostly by other black Americans. Newsflash folks: 15 to 30 year old black males commit per capita more homicides than 80 to 100 year old white women. While the interracial deaths draw the attention of racists with an agenda we all know that crime victims tend to be of the same race as the perpetrators. What is racist is allowing blacks to be murdered on the altar of political correctness. Do I need to provide anymore stats to prove what we all know? As you see blacks are six plus times more likely to be murdered than whites. Ignoring that fact is racist.
The fact is blacks are not going to stop being murdered at six times the rate of whites until they stop murdering at six times the rate of whites.
QUOTE
According to the FBI SHR data, in 2004 there were 6,644 black homicide
victims in the United States. The homicide rate among black victims in the United
States was 18.71 per 100,000. For that year, the overall national homicide rate was
4.86 per 100,000. For whites, the national homicide rate was 2.97 per 100,000.
Additional information contained in the FBI SHR data on black homicide includes:
Gender
Of the 6,644 black homicide victims, 5,629 (85 percent) were male, and 1,012 (15
percent) were female. Gender was not recorded for 3 victims. The homicide rate for
black male victims was 30.56 per 100,000. In comparison, the overall rate for male
homicide victims was 7.82 per 100,000. For white male homicide victims it was 4.47
per 100,000. The homicide rate for female black victims was 5.01 per 100,000. In
comparison, the overall rate for female homicide victims was 1.98 per 100,000. For
white female homicide victims it was 1.51 per 100,000.
victims in the United States. The homicide rate among black victims in the United
States was 18.71 per 100,000. For that year, the overall national homicide rate was
4.86 per 100,000. For whites, the national homicide rate was 2.97 per 100,000.
Additional information contained in the FBI SHR data on black homicide includes:
Gender
Of the 6,644 black homicide victims, 5,629 (85 percent) were male, and 1,012 (15
percent) were female. Gender was not recorded for 3 victims. The homicide rate for
black male victims was 30.56 per 100,000. In comparison, the overall rate for male
homicide victims was 7.82 per 100,000. For white male homicide victims it was 4.47
per 100,000. The homicide rate for female black victims was 5.01 per 100,000. In
comparison, the overall rate for female homicide victims was 1.98 per 100,000. For
white female homicide victims it was 1.51 per 100,000.
Sadly political correctness did not help the 150 to 200 black Americans murdered today, mostly by other black Americans. Newsflash folks: 15 to 30 year old black males commit per capita more homicides than 80 to 100 year old white women. While the interracial deaths draw the attention of racists with an agenda we all know that crime victims tend to be of the same race as the perpetrators. What is racist is allowing blacks to be murdered on the altar of political correctness. Do I need to provide anymore stats to prove what we all know? As you see blacks are six plus times more likely to be murdered than whites. Ignoring that fact is racist.
The fact is blacks are not going to stop being murdered at six times the rate of whites until they stop murdering at six times the rate of whites.
This is the part where rhetoric stands in for logic I suppose. You have yet to confront the point made by other posters on the conclusions you claim to have reached from these statistics.
No one argues they are true, we simply differ on what they may mean which is, after all, the topic here.
No one argues they are true, we simply differ on what they may mean which is, after all, the topic here.
turnea's right. Are they any indications that economics doesn't play a role? Such as the homocide rate among any demographic being greater between those who earend $145-160,000 a year as opposed to say, $1,000-$20,000??
Nice duck.
Nice duck.
QUOTE(deng @ Jun 24 2007, 09:35 PM)
A little statistical information:
Sadly political correctness did not help the 150 to 200 black Americans murdered today, mostly by other black Americans. Newsflash folks: 15 to 30 year old black males commit per capita more homicides than 80 to 100 year old white women. While the interracial deaths draw the attention of racists with an agenda we all know that crime victims tend to be of the same race as the perpetrators. What is racist is allowing blacks to be murdered on the altar of political correctness. Do I need to provide anymore stats to prove what we all know? As you see blacks are six plus times more likely to be murdered than whites. Ignoring that fact is racist.
The fact is blacks are not going to stop being murdered at six times the rate of whites until they stop murdering at six times the rate of whites.
QUOTE
According to the FBI SHR data, in 2004 there were 6,644 black homicide
victims in the United States. The homicide rate among black victims in the United
States was 18.71 per 100,000. For that year, the overall national homicide rate was
4.86 per 100,000. For whites, the national homicide rate was 2.97 per 100,000.
Additional information contained in the FBI SHR data on black homicide includes:
Gender
Of the 6,644 black homicide victims, 5,629 (85 percent) were male, and 1,012 (15
percent) were female. Gender was not recorded for 3 victims. The homicide rate for
black male victims was 30.56 per 100,000. In comparison, the overall rate for male
homicide victims was 7.82 per 100,000. For white male homicide victims it was 4.47
per 100,000. The homicide rate for female black victims was 5.01 per 100,000. In
comparison, the overall rate for female homicide victims was 1.98 per 100,000. For
white female homicide victims it was 1.51 per 100,000.
victims in the United States. The homicide rate among black victims in the United
States was 18.71 per 100,000. For that year, the overall national homicide rate was
4.86 per 100,000. For whites, the national homicide rate was 2.97 per 100,000.
Additional information contained in the FBI SHR data on black homicide includes:
Gender
Of the 6,644 black homicide victims, 5,629 (85 percent) were male, and 1,012 (15
percent) were female. Gender was not recorded for 3 victims. The homicide rate for
black male victims was 30.56 per 100,000. In comparison, the overall rate for male
homicide victims was 7.82 per 100,000. For white male homicide victims it was 4.47
per 100,000. The homicide rate for female black victims was 5.01 per 100,000. In
comparison, the overall rate for female homicide victims was 1.98 per 100,000. For
white female homicide victims it was 1.51 per 100,000.
Sadly political correctness did not help the 150 to 200 black Americans murdered today, mostly by other black Americans. Newsflash folks: 15 to 30 year old black males commit per capita more homicides than 80 to 100 year old white women. While the interracial deaths draw the attention of racists with an agenda we all know that crime victims tend to be of the same race as the perpetrators. What is racist is allowing blacks to be murdered on the altar of political correctness. Do I need to provide anymore stats to prove what we all know? As you see blacks are six plus times more likely to be murdered than whites. Ignoring that fact is racist.
The fact is blacks are not going to stop being murdered at six times the rate of whites until they stop murdering at six times the rate of whites.
How is anyone "allowing" Blacks to be murdered at six times the rate of Whites? How is being politically correct affecting that statistic? I am of the conclusion that the phrase "allowing blacks to be murdered on the altar of political correctness" is a nonsense phrase, and means nothing.
I would like to know what, if any, conclusions you are drawing from the statistics you are quoting, otherwise, discussing them is meaningless, and is certainly a long way from the topic of this thread, which was that Juneteenth festivals somehow have a higher incidence of violence than other celebrations that are attended by large crowds.
Has anyone looked into the high incidence of St. Patrick's Day violence, such as this in Kansas City in 2006?
Kansas City St. Patrick's Day Violence in 2006
St. Patrick's Day Parade organizer Mary Nestel isn't happy with front-page news like this:
QUOTE
Shots were fired, and a family was brutally attacked by youths in a parking lot near 16th Street and Grand Boulevard.Police broke up at least 10 fights, tackled a gunman and nearly shot a juvenile who had a toy gun.
In one attack Friday, a Kansas City Star employee and his family were kicked and beaten toward the end of the parade in one of the newspaper’s parking lots. A witness and Star security officials said one youth shot a gun into the air.
Star story Saturday: Violence returns with gunfire, beatings, arrests
I called Mary this morning to see what, if anything, might be done differently next year.
"What more can we do?" she said. "We can’t tell certain people not to come down. It’s Kansas City’s largest single-day event, so aside from charging people to come...
In one attack Friday, a Kansas City Star employee and his family were kicked and beaten toward the end of the parade in one of the newspaper’s parking lots. A witness and Star security officials said one youth shot a gun into the air.
Star story Saturday: Violence returns with gunfire, beatings, arrests
I called Mary this morning to see what, if anything, might be done differently next year.
"What more can we do?" she said. "We can’t tell certain people not to come down. It’s Kansas City’s largest single-day event, so aside from charging people to come...
QUOTE(deng @ Dec 3 2006, 01:20 PM)
Man going whoring before his wedding day. Man no good, Fiancee probably take a dump on his grave. Policeman, any evidence of any history of other abuses? Why they just suddenly shoot people after 12 years on force. Make no sense. Policeman good. Cheating groom bad. Whoremongerer dead. That's good.
QUOTE(deng @ Dec 24 2006, 02:15 PM)
What you have is a stupid criminal, legally intoxicated, who tried to run over a police officer. He got his just desserts. I suggest to those who wish to live a long life to 1) avoid houses of ill repute 2) Don't attempt to kill police officers 3) do something that is not morally reprehensible on the eve of your wedding.
QUOTE(deng @ Mar 18 2007, 08:28 PM)
It does not serve our interests to spend one cent, much less an American life, in Darfur. Let the genocide continue.
QUOTE(deng @ Apr 21 2007, 11:46 AM)
The Jews only went willingly to the gas chambers after their weapons were seized. Earlier gun registration laws made the seizure of Jewish weapons easy. We could more effectively lower the gun homicide rate by not allowing blacks and hispanics to have guns. If we gonna trash the 2nd Amendment let us go ahead and trash the 14th while we are at it. The equal protection clause nuts will most likely have a fit.
It seems when you factor out black and hispanic homicides that the white homicide rate is on par with the homicide rate of the rest of the western world.
It seems when you factor out black and hispanic homicides that the white homicide rate is on par with the homicide rate of the rest of the western world.
While it's nice to see that deng has progressed as a debater to write in complete sentences, his modus operandi of bashing Black people hasn't deviated much from his prior posts expressing glee over the killing of Sean Bell, cheering on the genocide in Darfur and suggesting the Second Amendment shouldn't apply to Blacks and Hispanics.
I'm not going to go so far as to accuse deng of being a racist. Throwing a label that loaded around without full possession of the facts only serves to devalue it. What I will say is if something in the news makes Black people look bad, deng thinks that's good.
But just because it's in the news does that make it true? Are the way young Black people portrayed in the news "fair and balanced?" According to a 2001 report entitled, "Off Balance: Youth, Race and Crime in the News" what you see and read isn't necessarily what you get.
Washington, DC- Depictions of crime in the news are not reflective of the rate of crime, the proportion of crime which is violent, the proportion of crime committed by people of color, or the proportion of crime committed by youth, according to a new study released by Building Blocks for Youth.
Youth rarely appear in the news, but when they do, they are unduly connected to violence or crime. For example, one study of local California TV coverage found that nearly 7 in 10 news stories on violence involved youth, while youth arrests made up only 14% of arrests for violent crime that year. Another study found that more than half of TV news stories concerning children or youth involved violence, while only 2% of young people were either victims of violence or violent offenders that year.
Homicide coverage on network news increased 473% from 1990 to 1998, while homicides decreased 32.9% during that time. While there was a 68% decline in homicides committed by youth from 1993 to 1999, 62% of the public reported believing that youth crime was on the increase.
People of color, and especially Africans Americans, are disproportionately portrayed as perpetrators of crime, and underrepresented as victims. Three-fourths of the media studies which examined the race of perpetrators found that minorities were depicted substantially in excess of their rates of offending, while seven out of eight studies examining the race of victims found underreporting of minorities as crime victims. The most recent research on Latinos portrayals indicates that they rarely appear in the news, and when they do it is likely to be in stories about crime or immigration. link
It's funny how people like deng rely upon statistics to "prove" the criminality of Blacks, but the dilemma is without context or consideration of what the numbers actually mean they become nothing more than talking points. There is a quote that goes, "Do not put your faith in what statistics say until you have carefully considered what they do not say." The cold reciting of statistics minus any room for variation and without any thought behind them isn't evidence; it's wish fulfillment. There is no examination by deng WHY Blacks commit crimes in numbers disproportionate to their representation in the general population.
Then again, nuance isn't something deng is interested in. Throwing racial hand grenades is a lot more fun.
People of color make up only 13.87 percent of the staff in the newsrooms in 2006 according to a study by UNITY and it would take 40 years for newsrooms to reach parity with the current U.S. population. If only one race dominates in what is considered newsworthy it only follows that other races are going to be disproportionately represented as threats and menaces.
Nobody is proposing to ignore that young Black men are more likely to be murdered by other young Black men. But to ignore the whys and hows of the problem and just quoting statistics to criminalize an entire group of people; THAT is when you cross into the realm of racism.
The only thing I can add to this- a bit of a one liner- but it is so explanatory:
Why is it when a black person goes into a store in a natural disaster- it is a "looter"- but when a white person does it on the news, they are "gathering supplies from local stores"?
Why is it when a black person goes into a store in a natural disaster- it is a "looter"- but when a white person does it on the news, they are "gathering supplies from local stores"?
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Jun 25 2007, 12:30 AM)
Why is it when a black person goes into a store in a natural disaster- it is a "looter"- but when a white person does it on the news, they are "gathering supplies from local stores"?
Could it be for the same reason Brett Favre "hustles," plays "smart" and is a "blue-collar, lunchpail-kind-of-guy" and Donovan McNabb is a "natural athlete" or a "freak of nature?"
Words can have color-coded meanings. As in pro football, so it goes in Race Debate threads.
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