Full Version: Danes give up on burning witches, torch Mohammed!
We declare:
Saint Hans’ Eve has always celebrated the tradition of burning away the evil, in earlier times symbolized by the witch, who was supposedly directly connected to Satan. And if the witch was not burned then the harvest could not be safely brought into the house.
Now a new evil has arrived in Europe, an evil that lies and kills in the name of their so-called God. An evil that springs from the so-called Prophet Mohammed. Therefore, in our time, it is he who symbolizes evil and it is not just one harvest that will disappear, but all of Western Europe’s future that will vanish if this evil is not dispatched to Hekkenfeldt [i.e. Hell, literally the Hekla volcano in Iceland — BB].
Therefore will we burn the so-called Prophet Mohammed, on June 23, 2007, in three nameless places.
We burned Mohammed in three different places across the country. We now release the video from the first burning. The next videos will be released on July 23 and August 23.
For a Mohammed-free Denmark!!!
Gates of Vienna, translated from the Danish text in the video.
Questions for Debate:
1) Does this "burning in effigy" cross the line? If so, why?
2) Would you characterize this as religious, political, cultural, or ideological protest, or any combination of the above?
3) If you were a MainStream Media honcho, would you have covered this, whether in the Political segment or maybe in the Quirkies?
4) Do you think the folks behind this may be punking us?
5) If you were invited to an George Bush effigy burning, would you go? Karl Marx? Mohammed? Emperor Palatine?
edited to fix link... BD
Saint Hans’ Eve has always celebrated the tradition of burning away the evil, in earlier times symbolized by the witch, who was supposedly directly connected to Satan. And if the witch was not burned then the harvest could not be safely brought into the house.
Now a new evil has arrived in Europe, an evil that lies and kills in the name of their so-called God. An evil that springs from the so-called Prophet Mohammed. Therefore, in our time, it is he who symbolizes evil and it is not just one harvest that will disappear, but all of Western Europe’s future that will vanish if this evil is not dispatched to Hekkenfeldt [i.e. Hell, literally the Hekla volcano in Iceland — BB].
Therefore will we burn the so-called Prophet Mohammed, on June 23, 2007, in three nameless places.
We burned Mohammed in three different places across the country. We now release the video from the first burning. The next videos will be released on July 23 and August 23.
For a Mohammed-free Denmark!!!
Gates of Vienna, translated from the Danish text in the video.
Questions for Debate:
1) Does this "burning in effigy" cross the line? If so, why?
2) Would you characterize this as religious, political, cultural, or ideological protest, or any combination of the above?
3) If you were a MainStream Media honcho, would you have covered this, whether in the Political segment or maybe in the Quirkies?
4) Do you think the folks behind this may be punking us?
5) If you were invited to an George Bush effigy burning, would you go? Karl Marx? Mohammed? Emperor Palatine?
edited to fix link... BD
1) Does this "burning in effigy" cross the line? If so, why?
I strongly support the right of individuals to participate in this kind of protest. Of course, others have the right to peacefully demonstrate their opposition to it. Once things go beyond "peaceful" the law must step in firmly. (For example, if the burning effigy were to be left on the front steps of a mosque. This constitutes a direct threat.) I also strongly support the right to burn a cross on one's own property, to burn a flag that you own on your own property, and so on. There should be very, very few limits placed on free speech (including symbolic actions.) If by "cross the line" you mean "in bad taste," well, that's a matter of personal standards.
2) Would you characterize this as religious, political, cultural, or ideological protest, or any combination of the above?
All of the above. The above factors are always mixed up in human society. This is why it is so difficult, and so important, to keep church and state always and everywhere separate.
3) If you were a MainStream Media honcho, would you have covered this, whether in the Political segment or maybe in the Quirkies?
With all that is going on in Europe, this would seem to be worth a few paragraphs in International News. I don't see it as "quirky" news, which should usually be funny. What is going on in Europe with regard to Islam is, perhaps, the most serious issue on the planet at this time.
4) Do you think the folks behind this may be punking us?
Not being up on my slang, I will assume "punking" means something like "hoaxing." I suppose this is always possible, but I see no particular reason to think so. I can certainly understand why many Europeans would wish to protest Islam through such an activity.
5) If you were invited to an George Bush effigy burning, would you go? Karl Marx? Mohammed? Emperor Palatine?
No. Not my style. Let's discuss these one at a time.
George Bush is a living human being, and therefore I would not wish to suggest, in any way, that I wish harm to him. Burning the effigy of a living human being, in my opinion, would "cross the line" (although I would strongly support the right to do it as a form of peaceful political protest.)
Since the dead cannot be harmed, it would be less problematical to burn an image of Marx or Mohammed. This still isn't quite my style, since I would rather protest an ideology than the person behind it. (It seems to me more important to be against National Socialism as a whole than Adolf Hitler in particular.) (As a side issue, it is also not my style to burn a book in protest, no matter how harmful its ideas might be. I would rather that people see Capital or the Koran or My Struggle and judge for themselves.)
I cannot have any objection to the burning of the image of an entirely fictional character, although it seems rather pointless.
(One might consider the traditional burning of the image of Guy Fawkes, as practiced in the UK. By this time, the political meaning of this is entirely lost, despite the fact that Guy Fawkes was a very real person. In 2007, he might as well be a fictional character; just an excuse for some holiday fun. Perhaps time will have this fate in store for some of the people we have discussed above.)
I strongly support the right of individuals to participate in this kind of protest. Of course, others have the right to peacefully demonstrate their opposition to it. Once things go beyond "peaceful" the law must step in firmly. (For example, if the burning effigy were to be left on the front steps of a mosque. This constitutes a direct threat.) I also strongly support the right to burn a cross on one's own property, to burn a flag that you own on your own property, and so on. There should be very, very few limits placed on free speech (including symbolic actions.) If by "cross the line" you mean "in bad taste," well, that's a matter of personal standards.
2) Would you characterize this as religious, political, cultural, or ideological protest, or any combination of the above?
All of the above. The above factors are always mixed up in human society. This is why it is so difficult, and so important, to keep church and state always and everywhere separate.
3) If you were a MainStream Media honcho, would you have covered this, whether in the Political segment or maybe in the Quirkies?
With all that is going on in Europe, this would seem to be worth a few paragraphs in International News. I don't see it as "quirky" news, which should usually be funny. What is going on in Europe with regard to Islam is, perhaps, the most serious issue on the planet at this time.
4) Do you think the folks behind this may be punking us?
Not being up on my slang, I will assume "punking" means something like "hoaxing." I suppose this is always possible, but I see no particular reason to think so. I can certainly understand why many Europeans would wish to protest Islam through such an activity.
5) If you were invited to an George Bush effigy burning, would you go? Karl Marx? Mohammed? Emperor Palatine?
No. Not my style. Let's discuss these one at a time.
George Bush is a living human being, and therefore I would not wish to suggest, in any way, that I wish harm to him. Burning the effigy of a living human being, in my opinion, would "cross the line" (although I would strongly support the right to do it as a form of peaceful political protest.)
Since the dead cannot be harmed, it would be less problematical to burn an image of Marx or Mohammed. This still isn't quite my style, since I would rather protest an ideology than the person behind it. (It seems to me more important to be against National Socialism as a whole than Adolf Hitler in particular.) (As a side issue, it is also not my style to burn a book in protest, no matter how harmful its ideas might be. I would rather that people see Capital or the Koran or My Struggle and judge for themselves.)
I cannot have any objection to the burning of the image of an entirely fictional character, although it seems rather pointless.
(One might consider the traditional burning of the image of Guy Fawkes, as practiced in the UK. By this time, the political meaning of this is entirely lost, despite the fact that Guy Fawkes was a very real person. In 2007, he might as well be a fictional character; just an excuse for some holiday fun. Perhaps time will have this fate in store for some of the people we have discussed above.)
The link you provided pulls up a YouTube error message, and a search for "Gates of Vienna" was inconclusive, the closest match in name being a
post-Apocalyptic neo-Aryan heavy metal band lurching under the title, "Gates of Hell - Vienna". ...Perhaps video is close enough to the subject matter.
1) Does this "burning in effigy" cross the line? If so, why?
Not unless it violates local ordinances or fire codes.
2) Would you characterize this as religious, political, cultural, or ideological protest, or any combination of the above?
You didn't provide much background (or perhaps it was lost on the video), but it could be any combination of the above depending on the specific beliefs of the participants.
3) If you were a MainStream Media honcho, would you have covered this, whether in the Political segment or maybe in the Quirkies?
A Fire ... good copy, worth a buck
Effigy on fire ... newsworthy, worth a few bucks
Effigy of the patron of a major religion on fire ... Priceless
4) Do you think the folks behind this may be punking us?
Anything on YouTube must be suspect. Almost everyone there is trying to fake sincerity or reality in that venue.
5) If you were invited to an George Bush effigy burning, would you go? Karl Marx? Mohammed? Emperor Palatine?
An effigy burned with conviction was probably lit with fiction. Such platitudinous entertainment is common on YouTube, and burning its pages, more convenient.
post-Apocalyptic neo-Aryan heavy metal band lurching under the title, "Gates of Hell - Vienna". ...Perhaps video is close enough to the subject matter.
1) Does this "burning in effigy" cross the line? If so, why?
Not unless it violates local ordinances or fire codes.
2) Would you characterize this as religious, political, cultural, or ideological protest, or any combination of the above?
You didn't provide much background (or perhaps it was lost on the video), but it could be any combination of the above depending on the specific beliefs of the participants.
3) If you were a MainStream Media honcho, would you have covered this, whether in the Political segment or maybe in the Quirkies?
A Fire ... good copy, worth a buck
Effigy on fire ... newsworthy, worth a few bucks
Effigy of the patron of a major religion on fire ... Priceless
4) Do you think the folks behind this may be punking us?
Anything on YouTube must be suspect. Almost everyone there is trying to fake sincerity or reality in that venue.
5) If you were invited to an George Bush effigy burning, would you go? Karl Marx? Mohammed? Emperor Palatine?
An effigy burned with conviction was probably lit with fiction. Such platitudinous entertainment is common on YouTube, and burning its pages, more convenient.
1) Does this "burning in effigy" cross the line? If so, why?
Where is the line one might wonder? If burning symbolism is a line to be crossed, then it was crossed a long time ago when the Muslims decided to burn our flag. This, this is just a symbolic retribution by people who have been offended by the ease with which double standards have been allowed. We Danes are supposed to apologise and apologise whilst they use violence and intimidation against us? We go out of our way to help them, offer them sanctuary and in return they try to turn our country into a colony of their ridiculous superstition!?. What line is there that these people have not already crossed a hundred times?
2) Would you characterize this as religious, political, cultural, or ideological protest, or any combination of the above?
All of the above, and moral as well. The ritual in question is an ancient one, St Hans Night is the evening where in olden times Danes would burn witches in effigy as a means of symbolically killing evil. St Hans Night is the longest night of the year so its also a ritual tied up with fertility rites, the coming harvest and the hope for a bright future. The ritual today is an excuse for local community's to get together and share food around a big fire. Here it has been used as a pretext for demonstrating that the evil which was long since bannished from Denmark has now returned to our society.
More and more people in Denmark are seeing religion (as in organized ideology as opposed to personal faith) as a form of evil and Islam as the worst of the lot. Very few Danes would participate in this form of ritually burning of Mohammned however. Such acute symbolism isn't really anything that appeals to the modern Danish mind and the obscurity of this demonstration underlines that. I doubt the people involved see it as anything but an expression of anger at the injustice spread about by fatwa's and Islamic culture at the expense of Danish rights and civil liberties, but most Danes take a more tolerant view of these things and (like our Dutch friend Renger) expect equilibrium to be restored to Europe by natural means. No doubt then this burning of Mohammed is an attempt at forcing a confrontation. Many people here are sick and tired of the way Islamic issues are allowed to fester by politicians to sensitive to get their hands dirty.
3) If you were a MainStream Media honcho, would you have covered this, whether in the Political segment or maybe in the Quirkies?
This story has not appeared in the Danish media as far as I am aware. Were it up to me, I would make it a news item, for to me it is a symptom of the growing anger that is building up in Danish/European society. Unfortunately, I believe that this sort of story becomes the stick with which to beat the 'wicked Europeans'. The flag burnings, murders, rapes, honour killings and other crimes committed by the Muslims are repeatedly tolerated where as the smallest indiscretion by a Dane, a few spoken words, a song sung by a drunk in public, a handful of drawings, these are blown up out of all proportion. A Muslim attacks a Dane with a machete for appearing on a Danish beach in the nude, where as a Dane makes a comment about Islam. Which story do you suppose is going to cause outrage and anger?
It won't be the machete weilding Pakistani, or even the Arab youths who gang rape Danish teenagers for fun. No, the anger and vitriol is reserve exclusively for the Dane who dares to express an opinion. S/he is hounded down, hunted and hated. Their name is screamed by crowds called for blood whilst the civil servants and politicians who gave permission for these hundreds and thousands of extremists to enter our countries, remain passive.
4) Do you think the folks behind this may be punking us?
No. I think I know who these people are and they are deadly serious. So far they have kept within the law, but their legal demonstrations have already caused numerous retaliations from Muslims. Last year those whom I suspect are behind this effigy burning, staged a legal demonstration against the 'Islamification of Denmark'. At this demonstration were elderly men and women and very few young people. They were met by a crowd of Muslim youths who proceeeded to attack them, in full view of the TV camera's, with rocks and fire works. The police intervened and shut down the demonstration to protect the pensioners.
Denmark has freedom of expression. Danes have every right to express their opinion with regards to a religion and its social consequences. That is a fundamental right granted by our constitution specifically to prevent religion from muscling in on our society and its politics.
The message had been made however. Speak out against Islam and your words will be met with violence and no one in office is going to do a thing to prevent it.
5) If you were invited to an George Bush effigy burning, would you go? Karl Marx? Mohammed? Emperor Palatine?
No I'm not interested in such things. Given the way things are going however, I will demonstrate my disatisfaction in the next election.
Here is the You Tube video.
Here is the blog Gates of Vienna.
Where is the line one might wonder? If burning symbolism is a line to be crossed, then it was crossed a long time ago when the Muslims decided to burn our flag. This, this is just a symbolic retribution by people who have been offended by the ease with which double standards have been allowed. We Danes are supposed to apologise and apologise whilst they use violence and intimidation against us? We go out of our way to help them, offer them sanctuary and in return they try to turn our country into a colony of their ridiculous superstition!?. What line is there that these people have not already crossed a hundred times?
2) Would you characterize this as religious, political, cultural, or ideological protest, or any combination of the above?
All of the above, and moral as well. The ritual in question is an ancient one, St Hans Night is the evening where in olden times Danes would burn witches in effigy as a means of symbolically killing evil. St Hans Night is the longest night of the year so its also a ritual tied up with fertility rites, the coming harvest and the hope for a bright future. The ritual today is an excuse for local community's to get together and share food around a big fire. Here it has been used as a pretext for demonstrating that the evil which was long since bannished from Denmark has now returned to our society.
More and more people in Denmark are seeing religion (as in organized ideology as opposed to personal faith) as a form of evil and Islam as the worst of the lot. Very few Danes would participate in this form of ritually burning of Mohammned however. Such acute symbolism isn't really anything that appeals to the modern Danish mind and the obscurity of this demonstration underlines that. I doubt the people involved see it as anything but an expression of anger at the injustice spread about by fatwa's and Islamic culture at the expense of Danish rights and civil liberties, but most Danes take a more tolerant view of these things and (like our Dutch friend Renger) expect equilibrium to be restored to Europe by natural means. No doubt then this burning of Mohammed is an attempt at forcing a confrontation. Many people here are sick and tired of the way Islamic issues are allowed to fester by politicians to sensitive to get their hands dirty.
3) If you were a MainStream Media honcho, would you have covered this, whether in the Political segment or maybe in the Quirkies?
This story has not appeared in the Danish media as far as I am aware. Were it up to me, I would make it a news item, for to me it is a symptom of the growing anger that is building up in Danish/European society. Unfortunately, I believe that this sort of story becomes the stick with which to beat the 'wicked Europeans'. The flag burnings, murders, rapes, honour killings and other crimes committed by the Muslims are repeatedly tolerated where as the smallest indiscretion by a Dane, a few spoken words, a song sung by a drunk in public, a handful of drawings, these are blown up out of all proportion. A Muslim attacks a Dane with a machete for appearing on a Danish beach in the nude, where as a Dane makes a comment about Islam. Which story do you suppose is going to cause outrage and anger?
It won't be the machete weilding Pakistani, or even the Arab youths who gang rape Danish teenagers for fun. No, the anger and vitriol is reserve exclusively for the Dane who dares to express an opinion. S/he is hounded down, hunted and hated. Their name is screamed by crowds called for blood whilst the civil servants and politicians who gave permission for these hundreds and thousands of extremists to enter our countries, remain passive.
4) Do you think the folks behind this may be punking us?
No. I think I know who these people are and they are deadly serious. So far they have kept within the law, but their legal demonstrations have already caused numerous retaliations from Muslims. Last year those whom I suspect are behind this effigy burning, staged a legal demonstration against the 'Islamification of Denmark'. At this demonstration were elderly men and women and very few young people. They were met by a crowd of Muslim youths who proceeeded to attack them, in full view of the TV camera's, with rocks and fire works. The police intervened and shut down the demonstration to protect the pensioners.
Denmark has freedom of expression. Danes have every right to express their opinion with regards to a religion and its social consequences. That is a fundamental right granted by our constitution specifically to prevent religion from muscling in on our society and its politics.
The message had been made however. Speak out against Islam and your words will be met with violence and no one in office is going to do a thing to prevent it.
5) If you were invited to an George Bush effigy burning, would you go? Karl Marx? Mohammed? Emperor Palatine?
No I'm not interested in such things. Given the way things are going however, I will demonstrate my disatisfaction in the next election.
Here is the You Tube video.
Here is the blog Gates of Vienna.
1) Does this "burning in effigy" cross the line? If so, why?
For reasons already stated, I'd say no. This would be freedom of expression as long as they don't light it up in front of a Muslims house or on their lawn or anywhere where it could be perceived as a direct threat against someone.
2) Would you characterize this as religious, political, cultural, or ideological protest, or any combination of the above?
All of the above.
3) If you were a MainStream Media honcho, would you have covered this, whether in the Political segment or maybe in the Quirkies?
I would have covered it as a major story only to interrupt it with the breaking news coverage of Paris Hilton's release from jail.
4) Do you think the folks behind this may be punking us?
Oh, that Ashton Kutcher... oh, the hijinks!
5) If you were invited to an George Bush effigy burning, would you go? Karl Marx? Mohammed? Emperor Palatine?
No. And, it's Emperor Palpatine. If you're going to talk about burning Sith Lords in effigy, at least get their name right... jeesh!
For reasons already stated, I'd say no. This would be freedom of expression as long as they don't light it up in front of a Muslims house or on their lawn or anywhere where it could be perceived as a direct threat against someone.
2) Would you characterize this as religious, political, cultural, or ideological protest, or any combination of the above?
All of the above.
3) If you were a MainStream Media honcho, would you have covered this, whether in the Political segment or maybe in the Quirkies?
I would have covered it as a major story only to interrupt it with the breaking news coverage of Paris Hilton's release from jail.
4) Do you think the folks behind this may be punking us?
Oh, that Ashton Kutcher... oh, the hijinks!
5) If you were invited to an George Bush effigy burning, would you go? Karl Marx? Mohammed? Emperor Palatine?
No. And, it's Emperor Palpatine. If you're going to talk about burning Sith Lords in effigy, at least get their name right... jeesh!
1) Does this "burning in effigy" cross the line? If so, why?
I personally do not think so, because I am for freedom of speech. But I think it's a little like Jimmy Hoffa saying, Okay, youse guys don't like me. Come and get me...
2) Would you characterize this as religious, political, cultural, or ideological protest, or any combination of the above?
It's definitely a combination. Danes would be protesting the atmosphere that has been created by extremists who see their ideology/religion/culture as the only right one to the point of dismissing the Danish culture that was there before they emigrated.
3) If you were a MainStream Media honcho, would you have covered this, whether in the Political segment or maybe in the Quirkies?
I would cover it in the political segment.
4) Do you think the folks behind this may be punking us?
It is unfortunate that for many centuries people identified as witches were put to death. For the sake of sensationalism this was mentioned in connection with the burning in effigy of Mohammed. But this bears no resemblance whatsoever to "punking".
5) If you were invited to an George Bush effigy burning, would you go? Karl Marx? Mohammed? Emperor Pal[p]atine?
No, because it is not my preferred means of expression. In the particular case of George W. Bush, I wish him (nor the others with the possible exception of Emperor Palpatine) no harm, but I do wish he would take an early retirement to clear that pesky brush on his ranch in Crawford.
I personally do not think so, because I am for freedom of speech. But I think it's a little like Jimmy Hoffa saying, Okay, youse guys don't like me. Come and get me...
2) Would you characterize this as religious, political, cultural, or ideological protest, or any combination of the above?
It's definitely a combination. Danes would be protesting the atmosphere that has been created by extremists who see their ideology/religion/culture as the only right one to the point of dismissing the Danish culture that was there before they emigrated.
3) If you were a MainStream Media honcho, would you have covered this, whether in the Political segment or maybe in the Quirkies?
I would cover it in the political segment.
4) Do you think the folks behind this may be punking us?
It is unfortunate that for many centuries people identified as witches were put to death. For the sake of sensationalism this was mentioned in connection with the burning in effigy of Mohammed. But this bears no resemblance whatsoever to "punking".
5) If you were invited to an George Bush effigy burning, would you go? Karl Marx? Mohammed? Emperor Pal[p]atine?
No, because it is not my preferred means of expression. In the particular case of George W. Bush, I wish him (nor the others with the possible exception of Emperor Palpatine) no harm, but I do wish he would take an early retirement to clear that pesky brush on his ranch in Crawford.
Does this "burning in effigy" cross the line? If so, why?
You can't cross the First Amendment line.
Would you characterize this as religious, political, cultural, or ideological protest, or any combination of the above?
This is a political/ideological protest.
If you were a MainStream Media honcho, would you have covered this, whether in the Political segment or maybe in the Quirkies?
I'd rather cover our panicky small town rural Americans holding anti-Muslim pig races on future mosque sites.
You can't cross the First Amendment line.
Would you characterize this as religious, political, cultural, or ideological protest, or any combination of the above?
This is a political/ideological protest.
If you were a MainStream Media honcho, would you have covered this, whether in the Political segment or maybe in the Quirkies?
I'd rather cover our panicky small town rural Americans holding anti-Muslim pig races on future mosque sites.
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