Full Version: DC Madam Phone List Released...
After much legal wrangling, Deborah Jeane Palfrey-- "the DC Madam"-- has posted the outbound phone call history from her escort service, Pamela Martin & Associates. The records are available for free public download and viewing at her website (link).
Already the effects are being felt. A spokesman for Senator David Vitter (R-La), whose phone number appeared on the list, has issued a statement regarding the Senator's involvement (Link).
This story has the potential to grow into a scandal as the records-- hundreds of pages-- are poured through, and clients are exposed.
Questions for debate:
1. Should high-level government officials, Congressmen, or Senators step down if they are found to be included on the list?
2. Will there be hearings on capital hill, and if so, what are they likely to achieve?
3. Will the release of these records have any impact on the upcoming 2008 election, and would you vote for an incumbent whose phone number appeared on the list?
4. Will the release of these records remain in the public spotlight for an extended period of time, or will the story blow over quickly?
Already the effects are being felt. A spokesman for Senator David Vitter (R-La), whose phone number appeared on the list, has issued a statement regarding the Senator's involvement (Link).
This story has the potential to grow into a scandal as the records-- hundreds of pages-- are poured through, and clients are exposed.
Questions for debate:
1. Should high-level government officials, Congressmen, or Senators step down if they are found to be included on the list?
2. Will there be hearings on capital hill, and if so, what are they likely to achieve?
3. Will the release of these records have any impact on the upcoming 2008 election, and would you vote for an incumbent whose phone number appeared on the list?
4. Will the release of these records remain in the public spotlight for an extended period of time, or will the story blow over quickly?
Should high-level government officials, Congressmen, or Senators step down if they are found to be included on the list?
If there is proof of criminal activity in relation to any of the men whose numbers appear on the list, yeah. While I don't personally believe in prosecuting victimless crimes, the laws are still on the books and our elected officials should not be above the law. If there's no proof of criminal activity, I don't see why anyone should feel compelled to resign necessarily - and I suspect a crime would be difficult to prove on the basis of receiving an inbound phone call. That said, it is possible that this could do damage to one's party or one's chance of re-election and it might be worth considering stepping down "for the good of the party".
Will there be hearings on capital hill
Oh, probably.
and if so, what are they likely to achieve?
Little apart from publicity. Which may be enough.
Will the release of these records have any impact on the upcoming 2008 election
I think it will depend a lot on the party breakdown of those whose numbers appear on the list. The GOP touts itself as the party of "family values" and the apparent hypocrisy of "moral" Republican candidates patronizing Ms. Palfrey's escort service could cost those candidates a lot of votes - especially those up for re-election in 2008. I don't think it would have quite as much impact on Democratic politicians - though they will, no doubt, get the bulk of the publicity. Liberal constituents tend to be a bit more tolerant and a bit more forgiving when it comes to sexual pecadilloes.*
and would you vote for an incumbent whose phone number appeared on the list?
*Unless there were evidence of criminal activity, sure. Well, if I otherwise supported the candidate - I wouldn't vote for someone because their phone number appeared on the list.
Will the release of these records remain in the public spotlight for an extended period of time, or will the story blow over quickly?
It all depends on how many prominent names turn up, whose names they are, and how long it takes to sort though all the phone records. The story has had enough build-up to keep it going for a while - and each new name will give it another week or so.
I'm curious to see if we'll be getting much range of reaction from the politicians involved. Are all of them going to be pimping God and counseling and forgiving wives? Hop on board the Contrition Wagon, fellas! Let honor and principle - not to mention credibility - be damned! These guys are hilarious.
If there is proof of criminal activity in relation to any of the men whose numbers appear on the list, yeah. While I don't personally believe in prosecuting victimless crimes, the laws are still on the books and our elected officials should not be above the law. If there's no proof of criminal activity, I don't see why anyone should feel compelled to resign necessarily - and I suspect a crime would be difficult to prove on the basis of receiving an inbound phone call. That said, it is possible that this could do damage to one's party or one's chance of re-election and it might be worth considering stepping down "for the good of the party".
Will there be hearings on capital hill
Oh, probably.
and if so, what are they likely to achieve?
Little apart from publicity. Which may be enough.
Will the release of these records have any impact on the upcoming 2008 election
I think it will depend a lot on the party breakdown of those whose numbers appear on the list. The GOP touts itself as the party of "family values" and the apparent hypocrisy of "moral" Republican candidates patronizing Ms. Palfrey's escort service could cost those candidates a lot of votes - especially those up for re-election in 2008. I don't think it would have quite as much impact on Democratic politicians - though they will, no doubt, get the bulk of the publicity. Liberal constituents tend to be a bit more tolerant and a bit more forgiving when it comes to sexual pecadilloes.*
and would you vote for an incumbent whose phone number appeared on the list?
*Unless there were evidence of criminal activity, sure. Well, if I otherwise supported the candidate - I wouldn't vote for someone because their phone number appeared on the list.
Will the release of these records remain in the public spotlight for an extended period of time, or will the story blow over quickly?
It all depends on how many prominent names turn up, whose names they are, and how long it takes to sort though all the phone records. The story has had enough build-up to keep it going for a while - and each new name will give it another week or so.
I'm curious to see if we'll be getting much range of reaction from the politicians involved. Are all of them going to be pimping God and counseling and forgiving wives? Hop on board the Contrition Wagon, fellas! Let honor and principle - not to mention credibility - be damned! These guys are hilarious.
1. Should high-level government officials, Congressmen, or Senators step down if they are found to be included on the list?
This seems premature, since there are any number of reasons (or excuses) that an official could give for being on the list. (Somebody's trying to make me look bad, etc.) In addition to this, one should keep in mind the fact that escort services are not, in and of themselves, against the law.
This may look bad, and cause a lot of embarrassment to the officials involved, but there's a long way to go before anything actually criminal can be proved.
2. Will there be hearings on capital hill, and if so, what are they likely to achieve?
I kind of doubt it, but who knows? Even more trivial things have led to Congressional hearings. If so, expect a lot of noise and little action.
3. Will the release of these records have any impact on the upcoming 2008 election, and would you vote for an incumbent whose phone number appeared on the list?
Maybe a little bit. I tend to doubt it will be a huge issue. I don't think having the number of a candidate on this list would change my vote at all. (I might become even more cynical about human nature, and mumble something about "that figures.") I am far more interested in policies than persons when it comes to candidates for office. What's the point of voting for someone who's a fine human being, but who opposes every policy I support? I'd much rather vote for a two-faced, skirt-chasing libertine who supports the same policies I do.
4. Will the release of these records remain in the public spotlight for an extended period of time, or will the story blow over quickly? Quickly, I'd say. This is nothing new. In fact, according to this article from Psychology Today, this kind of behavior might be expected from men with power.
Link
This seems premature, since there are any number of reasons (or excuses) that an official could give for being on the list. (Somebody's trying to make me look bad, etc.) In addition to this, one should keep in mind the fact that escort services are not, in and of themselves, against the law.
This may look bad, and cause a lot of embarrassment to the officials involved, but there's a long way to go before anything actually criminal can be proved.
2. Will there be hearings on capital hill, and if so, what are they likely to achieve?
I kind of doubt it, but who knows? Even more trivial things have led to Congressional hearings. If so, expect a lot of noise and little action.
3. Will the release of these records have any impact on the upcoming 2008 election, and would you vote for an incumbent whose phone number appeared on the list?
Maybe a little bit. I tend to doubt it will be a huge issue. I don't think having the number of a candidate on this list would change my vote at all. (I might become even more cynical about human nature, and mumble something about "that figures.") I am far more interested in policies than persons when it comes to candidates for office. What's the point of voting for someone who's a fine human being, but who opposes every policy I support? I'd much rather vote for a two-faced, skirt-chasing libertine who supports the same policies I do.
4. Will the release of these records remain in the public spotlight for an extended period of time, or will the story blow over quickly? Quickly, I'd say. This is nothing new. In fact, according to this article from Psychology Today, this kind of behavior might be expected from men with power.
Link
QUOTE
It's natural for politicians to risk everything for an affair (but only if they're male)
On the morning of January 21, 1998, as Americans woke up to the stunning allegation that President Bill Clinton had had an affair with a 24-year-old White House intern, Darwinian historian Laura L. Betzig thought, "I told you so." Betzig points out that while powerful men throughout Western history have married monogamously (only one legal wife at a time), they have always mated polygynously (they had lovers, concubines, and female slaves). With their wives, they produced legitimate heirs; with the others, they produced bastards. Genes make no distinction between the two categories of children.
As a result, powerful men of high status throughout human history attained very high reproductive success, leaving a large number of offspring (legitimate and otherwise), while countless poor men died mateless and childless. Moulay Ismail the Bloodthirsty, the last Sharifian emperor of Morocco, stands out quantitatively, having left more offspring—1,042—than anyone else on record, but he was by no means qualitatively different from other powerful men, like Bill Clinton.
The question many asked in 1998—"Why on earth would the most powerful man in the world jeopardize his job for an affair with a young woman?"—is, from a Darwinian perspective, a silly one. Betzig's answer would be: "Why not?" Men strive to attain political power, consciously or unconsciously, in order to have reproductive access to a larger number of women. Reproductive access to women is the goal, political office but one means. To ask why the President of the United States would have a sexual encounter with a young woman is like asking why someone who worked very hard to earn a large sum of money would then spend it.
What distinguishes Bill Clinton is not that he had extramarital affairs while in office—others have, more will; it would be a Darwinian puzzle if they did not—what distinguishes him is the fact that he got caught.
On the morning of January 21, 1998, as Americans woke up to the stunning allegation that President Bill Clinton had had an affair with a 24-year-old White House intern, Darwinian historian Laura L. Betzig thought, "I told you so." Betzig points out that while powerful men throughout Western history have married monogamously (only one legal wife at a time), they have always mated polygynously (they had lovers, concubines, and female slaves). With their wives, they produced legitimate heirs; with the others, they produced bastards. Genes make no distinction between the two categories of children.
As a result, powerful men of high status throughout human history attained very high reproductive success, leaving a large number of offspring (legitimate and otherwise), while countless poor men died mateless and childless. Moulay Ismail the Bloodthirsty, the last Sharifian emperor of Morocco, stands out quantitatively, having left more offspring—1,042—than anyone else on record, but he was by no means qualitatively different from other powerful men, like Bill Clinton.
The question many asked in 1998—"Why on earth would the most powerful man in the world jeopardize his job for an affair with a young woman?"—is, from a Darwinian perspective, a silly one. Betzig's answer would be: "Why not?" Men strive to attain political power, consciously or unconsciously, in order to have reproductive access to a larger number of women. Reproductive access to women is the goal, political office but one means. To ask why the President of the United States would have a sexual encounter with a young woman is like asking why someone who worked very hard to earn a large sum of money would then spend it.
What distinguishes Bill Clinton is not that he had extramarital affairs while in office—others have, more will; it would be a Darwinian puzzle if they did not—what distinguishes him is the fact that he got caught.
QUOTE(Mike @ Jul 10 2007, 01:35 AM) 
Questions for debate:
1. Should high-level government officials, Congressmen, or Senators step down if they are found to be included on the list?
2. Will there be hearings on capital hill, and if so, what are they likely to achieve?
3. Will the release of these records have any impact on the upcoming 2008 election, and would you vote for an incumbent whose phone number appeared on the list?
4. Will the release of these records remain in the public spotlight for an extended period of time, or will the story blow over quickly?
1. Should high-level government officials, Congressmen, or Senators step down if they are found to be included on the list?
2. Will there be hearings on capital hill, and if so, what are they likely to achieve?
3. Will the release of these records have any impact on the upcoming 2008 election, and would you vote for an incumbent whose phone number appeared on the list?
4. Will the release of these records remain in the public spotlight for an extended period of time, or will the story blow over quickly?
1. Well, if your name is Senator David Vitter, if things keep getting worse, you might want to start preparing a resignation speech.
NEW ORLEANS - Sen. David Vitter, who publicly apologized after being linked to an alleged prostitution ring in Washington, was once a client of a high-priced New Orleans brothel, a former madam told a New Orleans television station Tuesday.
Jeanette Maier, who pleaded guilty to running the Canal Street brothel in 2002, made the allegation in an interview with WDSU-TV.
"He seemed to be one of the nicest men and most honorable men I've ever met," Maier said in the taped interview.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19685977/
Unless more madams and escorts or a few ladyboys pop up, Vitter will hang on as he doesn't have to face the voters until 2010. The GOP will hold their nose and stand behind him because they sure don't want the Democratic governor to appoint a replacement for Vitter. But if another shoe---or panty---drops, he's toast.
The funny thing about Vitter? His entry into Congress came as the replacement to Bob Livingston, who resigned due to his own extra-marital affairs.
In 1999, after designated House Speaker Rep. Bob Livingston, R-La., abruptly resigned after disclosures of numerous affairs, Vitter successfully ran to succeed him representing suburban New Orleans.
Asked whether she could forgive her husband after an extramarital affair, as Livingston's wife had done, Wendy Vitter told the Times-Picayune: "I'm a lot more like Lorena Bobbitt than Hillary [Clinton]. If he does something like that, I'm walking away with one thing, and it's not alimony, trust me."
Errr...Dave might want to sleep on his stomach tonight.
2. You gotta be kidding! Who on Capitol Hill wants to get to the bottom of THIS mess? Unless the Democrats know it can't come back to bite them in the butt, do you really think they WANT to know who's name is on the phone list? I have a feeling there are a lot of nervous politicians on both sides of the aisle that wants this story to go away very quickly and very quietly.
3. The only way this story impacts upon 2008 is if a presidential contender's name shows up or if more Republicans and/or Democrats are "outed" as clients. Personally, I could care less if a politician employs a prostitute. Being elected to high office doesn't mean you put your libido on hold until you're a private citizen again. I just can't stand these lying hypocrites like Vitter whom have made morality and defense of traditional marriage part of their campaigns.
4. Oh, it depends upon whether there is a "drip-drip-drip" of stories leaking out about Senator X or Congressman B on the escort agency phone list. If there is, this story could go on for quite some time to come. My bet is most Washington journalists don't want anything to do with tracking down how high up the food chain this story goes. It doesn't serve their interests to expose the sexual appetites of the politicians they cover on a daily basis.
There is a need for a serious and intelligent discussion about prostitution and the halls of power in Washington, but we're not going to get one out of this scandal.
1. Should high-level government officials, Congressmen, or Senators step down if they are found to be included on the list?
Personally, I don;t think this should be the result even if they are on the list because they were clients. I am on the fence for the breaking a law while in office issue, but when we get outraged about our politicians I would prefer it be for the ethical violations and corruption they engage in that is directly related to the business of being a politician. Otherwise, let the voters decide.
2. Will there be hearings on capital hill, and if so, what are they likely to achieve?
In this age of leaking, why bother. The names will get out and the scandals will be revealed. In the meantime the major problems facing our government will not be getting resolved.
3. Will the release of these records have any impact on the upcoming 2008 election, and would you vote for an incumbent whose phone number appeared on the list?
Yes. Yes.
4. Will the release of these records remain in the public spotlight for an extended period of time, or will the story blow over quickly?
Anybody connected to this will face heat. Anyone facing the voters again will give fuel for enemy attack ads.
Personally, I don;t think this should be the result even if they are on the list because they were clients. I am on the fence for the breaking a law while in office issue, but when we get outraged about our politicians I would prefer it be for the ethical violations and corruption they engage in that is directly related to the business of being a politician. Otherwise, let the voters decide.
2. Will there be hearings on capital hill, and if so, what are they likely to achieve?
In this age of leaking, why bother. The names will get out and the scandals will be revealed. In the meantime the major problems facing our government will not be getting resolved.
3. Will the release of these records have any impact on the upcoming 2008 election, and would you vote for an incumbent whose phone number appeared on the list?
Yes. Yes.
4. Will the release of these records remain in the public spotlight for an extended period of time, or will the story blow over quickly?
Anybody connected to this will face heat. Anyone facing the voters again will give fuel for enemy attack ads.
Should high-level government officials, Congressmen, or Senators step down if they are found to be included on the list?
If they are productive contributors to their constituency then I think these types of matters are best kept private and are really none of my business.
Will there be hearings on capital hill, and if so, what are they likely to achieve?
I tried to see into my crystal ball on this one but it needs new batteries. I think it could be a potential firestorm if political rivals can gain something from it.
Will the release of these records have any impact on the upcoming 2008 election, and would you vote for an incumbent whose phone number appeared on the list?
It's hard to say. Some voters are very critical of sexual misconduct, so it could have some impact. As for me, I do not care what a man does behind closed doors as long as the taxpayers aren't footing the bill and he's doing his job adequately.
Will the release of these records remain in the public spotlight for an extended period of time, or will the story blow over quickly?
That's a great question. I guess it depends on whether or not more sensational events occur to put it on the back burner, so to speak.
If they are productive contributors to their constituency then I think these types of matters are best kept private and are really none of my business.
Will there be hearings on capital hill, and if so, what are they likely to achieve?
I tried to see into my crystal ball on this one but it needs new batteries. I think it could be a potential firestorm if political rivals can gain something from it.
Will the release of these records have any impact on the upcoming 2008 election, and would you vote for an incumbent whose phone number appeared on the list?
It's hard to say. Some voters are very critical of sexual misconduct, so it could have some impact. As for me, I do not care what a man does behind closed doors as long as the taxpayers aren't footing the bill and he's doing his job adequately.
Will the release of these records remain in the public spotlight for an extended period of time, or will the story blow over quickly?
That's a great question. I guess it depends on whether or not more sensational events occur to put it on the back burner, so to speak.
1. Should high-level government officials, Congressmen, or Senators step down if they are found to be included on the list?
If they were involved in criminal activity, yes. Just because their name is listed, no. I do think the ones that blather on about family values, personal integrity, etc. and condemn those who indulge in certain behaviors while indulging themselves in those behaviors ought to step down, just on general principle. Vitter is a prime example of such a person, spouting off about family values, morality and ethics while indulging in sex with prostitutes (in addition to Palfrey’s list, he was a frequent customer at a New Orleans brothel in the 90’s).
I tend to agree with Victoria Silverwolf’s link – that all powerful men (or men who aspire to power) will have sexual conquests. What puzzles me is why these guys have to hire hookers. Aren’t there enough political groupies giving it away for free?
2. Will there be hearings on capital hill, and if so, what are they likely to achieve?
I doubt that hearings would be held. All it would do is generate a lot of embarrassment and be a huge waste of money.
3. Will the release of these records have any impact on the upcoming 2008 election, and would you vote for an incumbent whose phone number appeared on the list?
Well, the resignation of Vitter isn’t going to help the Giuliani campaign much. How much it will hurt remains to be seen (heck, Rudy’s record isn’t so pretty either…birds of a feather?). It all depends whose names are on the list.
As for the second part of the question: since the party of the so-called “moral majority” rarely gets my vote, I believe it’s a moot point. The fact that a person’s name is on the list means little to me. The hypocrisy of those who condemn “immoral” behavior while indulging in it is what galls me.
4. Will the release of these records remain in the public spotlight for an extended period of time, or will the story blow over quickly?
I think it will be one of those stories that comes and goes in the media. Each time a prominent name is found, it will regain new life.
Wonder if Cheney is on the list? Wouldn’t that be a hoot! Now that would be a story with legs!
If they were involved in criminal activity, yes. Just because their name is listed, no. I do think the ones that blather on about family values, personal integrity, etc. and condemn those who indulge in certain behaviors while indulging themselves in those behaviors ought to step down, just on general principle. Vitter is a prime example of such a person, spouting off about family values, morality and ethics while indulging in sex with prostitutes (in addition to Palfrey’s list, he was a frequent customer at a New Orleans brothel in the 90’s).
I tend to agree with Victoria Silverwolf’s link – that all powerful men (or men who aspire to power) will have sexual conquests. What puzzles me is why these guys have to hire hookers. Aren’t there enough political groupies giving it away for free?
2. Will there be hearings on capital hill, and if so, what are they likely to achieve?
I doubt that hearings would be held. All it would do is generate a lot of embarrassment and be a huge waste of money.
3. Will the release of these records have any impact on the upcoming 2008 election, and would you vote for an incumbent whose phone number appeared on the list?
Well, the resignation of Vitter isn’t going to help the Giuliani campaign much. How much it will hurt remains to be seen (heck, Rudy’s record isn’t so pretty either…birds of a feather?). It all depends whose names are on the list.
As for the second part of the question: since the party of the so-called “moral majority” rarely gets my vote, I believe it’s a moot point. The fact that a person’s name is on the list means little to me. The hypocrisy of those who condemn “immoral” behavior while indulging in it is what galls me.
4. Will the release of these records remain in the public spotlight for an extended period of time, or will the story blow over quickly?
I think it will be one of those stories that comes and goes in the media. Each time a prominent name is found, it will regain new life.
Wonder if Cheney is on the list? Wouldn’t that be a hoot!
Now that would be a story with legs! QUOTE
News you’re not reading about on the ABC News nightly report: Vice President Dick Cheney is on the list from his time as a part-time resident of McLean, Virginia while he was President and CEO of Halliburton.”
Wayne Madsen is reporting that he has three independent sources telling him that Dick Cheney is on the secret list of Deborah Jeane Palfrey’s clients. Deborah Jeane Palfrey is on trial, accused of being the madam of a Washington D.C. prostitution ring. Irregular Times
Wayne Madsen is reporting that he has three independent sources telling him that Dick Cheney is on the secret list of Deborah Jeane Palfrey’s clients. Deborah Jeane Palfrey is on trial, accused of being the madam of a Washington D.C. prostitution ring. Irregular Times
1. Should high-level government officials, Congressmen, or Senators step down if they are found to be included on the list?
It depends I think. If they were married at the time, it's something they might consider. After all, if they are willing to violate the trust of their own wife what are the odds they might also be willing to violate the public trust?
2. Will there be hearings on capital hill, and if so, what are they likely to achieve?
No way because there are probably names on that list from both sides of the aisle.
3. Will the release of these records have any impact on the upcoming 2008 election, and would you vote for an incumbent whose phone number appeared on the list?
It might in certain districts, won't in others. I would be less likely to vote for a person whose name is on the list, but it wouldn't be an over-riding factor in my decision.
4. Will the release of these records remain in the public spotlight for an extended period of time, or will the story blow over quickly?
Oh, it's going to go away in a real hurry. Keep in mind that there aren't only politicians on that list, but I just bet you there are some news media people there as well. NO WAY they're going to want to go anywhere with this one. This story is gonna get buried ASAP.
Aquilla
It depends I think. If they were married at the time, it's something they might consider. After all, if they are willing to violate the trust of their own wife what are the odds they might also be willing to violate the public trust?
2. Will there be hearings on capital hill, and if so, what are they likely to achieve?
No way because there are probably names on that list from both sides of the aisle.
3. Will the release of these records have any impact on the upcoming 2008 election, and would you vote for an incumbent whose phone number appeared on the list?
It might in certain districts, won't in others. I would be less likely to vote for a person whose name is on the list, but it wouldn't be an over-riding factor in my decision.
4. Will the release of these records remain in the public spotlight for an extended period of time, or will the story blow over quickly?
Oh, it's going to go away in a real hurry. Keep in mind that there aren't only politicians on that list, but I just bet you there are some news media people there as well. NO WAY they're going to want to go anywhere with this one. This story is gonna get buried ASAP.
Aquilla
Should high-level government officials, Congressmen, or Senators step down if they are found to be included on the list?
I really don't care. Men in powerful positions (no pun intended) have cheated on their wives for centuries and all of a sudden, or for the last three decades, cheating on their wives has mysteriously affected their job performance (again, no pun intended)? Their job is affected if their constituents want to make it an issue. It's a subjective reality.
They should, however, be charged. Since they're so weak-kneed they're unwilling to challenge legislation outlawing victimless crimes they should face the consequences of their complacency.
I really don't care. Men in powerful positions (no pun intended) have cheated on their wives for centuries and all of a sudden, or for the last three decades, cheating on their wives has mysteriously affected their job performance (again, no pun intended)? Their job is affected if their constituents want to make it an issue. It's a subjective reality.
They should, however, be charged. Since they're so weak-kneed they're unwilling to challenge legislation outlawing victimless crimes they should face the consequences of their complacency.
1. Should high-level government officials, Congressmen, or Senators step down if they are found to be included on the list?
Only if they are republicans- as they are the ones that have made so much hay about "moral values" and what not- if you are a person that ran on "character" - and, on top of that, have voted on any "sex" legislation involving adults - then ya, you ae a hypocrite and deserve everything you get. That is why it is so fun to find out about "family values" preachers that have a crystal meth and male prostitute problem
2. Will there be hearings on capital hill, and if so, what are they likely to achieve?
I doubt it, shouldn't be one- but we should trot out the dudes name in conjuction with his sleeping with prostitutes every time he gets up on his high horse
We really shouldn't waste time or money on it though, in the official capacity- unless he was using bribes and kickbacks to pay for prostitutes - then you have a bigger problem as well, I think.
3. Will the release of these records have any impact on the upcoming 2008 election, and would you vote for an incumbent whose phone number appeared on the list?
It would only impact my vote if they had run on "family values" and "morality".
4. Will the release of these records remain in the public spotlight for an extended period of time, or will the story blow over quickly?
I don't know- I think there is bigger fish to fry in the Administrations wrongdoing- much more important wrongdoing.
Only if they are republicans- as they are the ones that have made so much hay about "moral values" and what not- if you are a person that ran on "character" - and, on top of that, have voted on any "sex" legislation involving adults - then ya, you ae a hypocrite and deserve everything you get. That is why it is so fun to find out about "family values" preachers that have a crystal meth and male prostitute problem
2. Will there be hearings on capital hill, and if so, what are they likely to achieve?
I doubt it, shouldn't be one- but we should trot out the dudes name in conjuction with his sleeping with prostitutes every time he gets up on his high horse
We really shouldn't waste time or money on it though, in the official capacity- unless he was using bribes and kickbacks to pay for prostitutes - then you have a bigger problem as well, I think.
3. Will the release of these records have any impact on the upcoming 2008 election, and would you vote for an incumbent whose phone number appeared on the list?
It would only impact my vote if they had run on "family values" and "morality".
4. Will the release of these records remain in the public spotlight for an extended period of time, or will the story blow over quickly?
I don't know- I think there is bigger fish to fry in the Administrations wrongdoing- much more important wrongdoing.
QUOTE(cruisingram)
Only if they are republicans- as they are the ones that have made so much hay about "moral values" and what not- if you are a person that ran on "character" - and, on top of that, have voted on any "sex" legislation involving adults - then ya, you ae a hypocrite and deserve everything you get. That is why it is so fun to find out about "family values" preachers that have a crystal meth and male prostitute problem
You're kidding yourself if you think mainstream Democrats are any different. These days the two major parties both preach much of the same "family values" pablum. Those who oppose the laws you speak of are mostly the non-Democratic left and the libertarians on both sides of the spectrum.
Should these guys step down? They should certainly face the legal consequences of their actions. But this is the age of the "heart-felt" apology in politics. Politicians of all stripes learned from Bill Clinton that the puppy dog eyes work with the American public.
QUOTE(quarkhead @ Jul 11 2007, 03:11 PM)
You're kidding yourself if you think mainstream Democrats are any different. These days the two major parties both preach much of the same "family values" pablum.
I disagree completely. While I think the democrats are not much different in terms of the importance of family values, family values is pretty much a political platform for the republicans. But just like Newt, this clown's hypocrisy is astounding.
People would have far less grief with the repubicans if they practiced what they preach. But they don't. They impeach presidents and act self-righteous in the name of family values while they themselves are cheating, build nations like the best of socialists, spend money like no liberal ever did, and apologize for criminal behavior when it suits them.
This is just another piece of proof today's republicans are frauds.
3. Will the release of these records have any impact on the upcoming 2008 election, and would you vote for an incumbent whose phone number appeared on the list?
Perhaps, and it would do so on either side of the aisle...
I hate to rain on the confirmation bias parade in here, but can someone cite actual evidence that Democratic voters don't care a whit about candidates' morality? Sure, it's someone less of an issue, particularly in local elections. However, I don't see too many national candidates sailing through primary season with marital infidelity or prostitution scandals. Barney Frank being the exception, and Gary Hart proving the rule. Can someone enlighten me? Bonus points if it's someone that doesn't live in a major metro area.
The real shame here is that Vitter gets to make peace with God, while the madam has to make peace in federal court. That's not a very fair outcome. I agree with Lesly that they should be charged, at least if you are going to charge the madam, that is. Then again, she apparently had her daughter stripping with her at age 15, so she should be charged with something besides pandering as well.
Cases like these almost swing me back to the legalization side of this argument. Female slave-trafficking is the primary factor holding me back, as that's not really a victimless crime.
Perhaps, and it would do so on either side of the aisle...
QUOTE(just about everybody)
Republicans are hypocrites, "family values," self-righteous, Newt Gingrich, yada yada
I hate to rain on the confirmation bias parade in here, but can someone cite actual evidence that Democratic voters don't care a whit about candidates' morality? Sure, it's someone less of an issue, particularly in local elections. However, I don't see too many national candidates sailing through primary season with marital infidelity or prostitution scandals. Barney Frank being the exception, and Gary Hart proving the rule. Can someone enlighten me? Bonus points if it's someone that doesn't live in a major metro area.
The real shame here is that Vitter gets to make peace with God, while the madam has to make peace in federal court. That's not a very fair outcome. I agree with Lesly that they should be charged, at least if you are going to charge the madam, that is. Then again, she apparently had her daughter stripping with her at age 15, so she should be charged with something besides pandering as well.
Cases like these almost swing me back to the legalization side of this argument. Female slave-trafficking is the primary factor holding me back, as that's not really a victimless crime.
QUOTE(carlitoswhey)
I hate to rain on the confirmation bias parade in here, but can someone cite actual evidence that Democratic voters don't care a whit about candidates' morality? Sure, it's someone less of an issue, particularly in local elections. However, I don't see too many national candidates sailing through primary season with marital infidelity or prostitution scandals. Barney Frank being the exception, and Gary Hart proving the rule. Can someone enlighten me? Bonus points if it's someone that doesn't live in a major metro area.
Well, I won’t get any bonus points, but we have our own scandalous Democrat here in LA. Mayor Villaraigosa (supposedly the “pro-family” guy) has disappointed his constituents with his Giuliani-like rejection of his wife of 20+ years for the Telemundo reporter he’s been carrying on with for over a year. Of course, Antonio was a bit more gentlemanly about letting the wife stay at the mayor’s mansion while he moved out. It may or may not hurt his gubenatorial aspirations.
QUOTE
"He is the most high-profile Latino politician in the United States and this is what he does? Jeesh," Arellano said. "For somebody who has so carefully crafted his image as this golden boy of Latino politics, I find it astounding that Antonio could be so reckless in his personal life, especially when he campaigns as a family man." LA Times
It’s not so much the party as the hypocrisy that matters. Don't preach about "family values" while you're screwing around on the side. I don't think it's unfair to point out that far more Republicans run on the whole "family values" platform than do Democrats.
Edited to add: One major difference with Villaraigosa, at least he fessed up publicly and didn't have to be outed, as do so many others.
Sure- anyone that preaches family values as a platform and then is having a dalliance on the side deserves to be outed, deserves to be humiliated and thier entire ideology attacked- I won't cut dems on slack on this- it is, as DR pointed out- the "high ground" the republicans have really tried to make thier own starting with Reagan.
Those in glass houses and all 
You pass "sin" legislation- be prepared to be busted when you commit the sin is all I am sayin'!
Those in glass houses and all
You pass "sin" legislation- be prepared to be busted when you commit the sin is all I am sayin'!
Questions for debate:
1. Should high-level government officials, Congressmen, or Senators step down if they are found to be included on the list?
Outbound call history? So, based on the implications of this question, if your phone number is found on the outbound call list of anybody we might consider nefarious, you should shut down
? Could be a wrong number. Could be a meth dealer taking a shot at telemarketing. Could be a al Qaeda operative trying to cause you trouble...
2. Will there be hearings on capital hill, and if so, what are they likely to achieve?
Mostly embarrassement for those who push the hearings, especially if they're blatantly and obviously political. I'm not exactly sure how this would justify Congressional hearings...
3. Will the release of these records have any impact on the upcoming 2008 election, and would you vote for an incumbent whose phone number appeared on the list?
hey, I've seen entire phone books smaller than the escort section in our phone book, so this certainly wouldn't be a single issue litmus for me. Especially since hereabouts the escort services have their own lobbyists.
4. Will the release of these records remain in the public spotlight for an extended period of time, or will the story blow over quickly? Blow over fairly quickly.
For those who hope for perp walks of GOP mucketey mucks, two words: Barney Frank.
The Villaraigosa story is an interesting one, because its not just about scandal by the politico, its about scandal by the journalist. What's going to happen when some journalists phone numbers show up on the Madam's list?
goes the story. 
1. Should high-level government officials, Congressmen, or Senators step down if they are found to be included on the list?
Outbound call history? So, based on the implications of this question, if your phone number is found on the outbound call list of anybody we might consider nefarious, you should shut down
? Could be a wrong number. Could be a meth dealer taking a shot at telemarketing. Could be a al Qaeda operative trying to cause you trouble... 2. Will there be hearings on capital hill, and if so, what are they likely to achieve?
Mostly embarrassement for those who push the hearings, especially if they're blatantly and obviously political. I'm not exactly sure how this would justify Congressional hearings...
3. Will the release of these records have any impact on the upcoming 2008 election, and would you vote for an incumbent whose phone number appeared on the list?
hey, I've seen entire phone books smaller than the escort section in our phone book, so this certainly wouldn't be a single issue litmus for me. Especially since hereabouts the escort services have their own lobbyists.
4. Will the release of these records remain in the public spotlight for an extended period of time, or will the story blow over quickly? Blow over fairly quickly.
For those who hope for perp walks of GOP mucketey mucks, two words: Barney Frank.
*******************************************************************
QUOTE(DaffyGrl)
One major difference with Villaraigosa, at least he fessed up publicly and didn't have to be outed, as do so many others.
Villaraigosa was outed. As was Newsome up in San Francisco. (What is it with these California Dem Mayors?)The Villaraigosa story is an interesting one, because its not just about scandal by the politico, its about scandal by the journalist. What's going to happen when some journalists phone numbers show up on the Madam's list?
goes the story.
I think those who anticipate a media cover up aren't considering that unlike political parties newspapers don't need to make friendly.
If a Washington Post reporter has been caught in the naughty book, what stops the NY times or the Chicago Tribune from covering it.
In fact they have incentive....
For once all that talk of the free markets and competition comes in actual use, huh?
If a Washington Post reporter has been caught in the naughty book, what stops the NY times or the Chicago Tribune from covering it.
In fact they have incentive....
For once all that talk of the free markets and competition comes in actual use, huh?
QUOTE(Bikerdad)
Villaraigosa was outed.
Do you have some proof of that, or do you expect your assertion to be accepted at face value?
QUOTE(Bikerdad @ Jul 11 2007, 06:23 PM)
Questions for debate:
1. Should high-level government officials, Congressmen, or Senators step down if they are found to be included on the list?
Outbound call history? So, based on the implications of this question, if your phone number is found on the outbound call list of anybody we might consider nefarious, you should shut down? Could be a wrong number. Could be a meth dealer taking a shot at telemarketing. Could be a al Qaeda operative trying to cause you trouble...
2. Will there be hearings on capital hill, and if so, what are they likely to achieve?
Mostly embarrassement for those who push the hearings, especially if they're blatantly and obviously political. I'm not exactly sure how this would justify Congressional hearings...
3. Will the release of these records have any impact on the upcoming 2008 election, and would you vote for an incumbent whose phone number appeared on the list?
hey, I've seen entire phone books smaller than the escort section in our phone book, so this certainly wouldn't be a single issue litmus for me. Especially since hereabouts the escort services have their own lobbyists.
4. Will the release of these records remain in the public spotlight for an extended period of time, or will the story blow over quickly? Blow over fairly quickly.
For those who hope for perp walks of GOP mucketey mucks, two words: Barney Frank.
The Villaraigosa story is an interesting one, because its not just about scandal by the politico, its about scandal by the journalist. What's going to happen when some journalists phone numbers show up on the Madam's list? goes the story.
1. Should high-level government officials, Congressmen, or Senators step down if they are found to be included on the list?
Outbound call history? So, based on the implications of this question, if your phone number is found on the outbound call list of anybody we might consider nefarious, you should shut down
? Could be a wrong number. Could be a meth dealer taking a shot at telemarketing. Could be a al Qaeda operative trying to cause you trouble... 2. Will there be hearings on capital hill, and if so, what are they likely to achieve?
Mostly embarrassement for those who push the hearings, especially if they're blatantly and obviously political. I'm not exactly sure how this would justify Congressional hearings...
3. Will the release of these records have any impact on the upcoming 2008 election, and would you vote for an incumbent whose phone number appeared on the list?
hey, I've seen entire phone books smaller than the escort section in our phone book, so this certainly wouldn't be a single issue litmus for me. Especially since hereabouts the escort services have their own lobbyists.
4. Will the release of these records remain in the public spotlight for an extended period of time, or will the story blow over quickly? Blow over fairly quickly.
For those who hope for perp walks of GOP mucketey mucks, two words: Barney Frank.
*******************************************************************
QUOTE(DaffyGrl)
One major difference with Villaraigosa, at least he fessed up publicly and didn't have to be outed, as do so many others.
Villaraigosa was outed. As was Newsome up in San Francisco. (What is it with these California Dem Mayors?)The Villaraigosa story is an interesting one, because its not just about scandal by the politico, its about scandal by the journalist. What's going to happen when some journalists phone numbers show up on the Madam's list?
goes the story. 1) Dude as much as admitted he was hiring the hookers- anyone else on that list that is there all "accidental" like- and some follow up will bring it to light if it is just a crazy outbound call- or if it was "your hooker will be ready at three ®
2) Barney Frank has never tried to pass "sin" laws based on sexual issues. He gets a pass. No republican does, period. Unless they are libertarian minded, and support gay marriage and such- otherwise- thier platform of "family values" makes them deserving of ridicule, scorn and investigations.
3) If a dem runs on the 'pub ticket of moral values, meaning missionary position sex after marriage- well- it is thier bad.
QUOTE(DaffyGrl @ Jul 12 2007, 12:27 PM)
QUOTE(Bikerdad)
Villaraigosa was outed.
Do you have some proof of that, or do you expect your assertion to be accepted at face value?
You know, when I wrote my post, I was actually thinking of Villaraigosa, but figured that no one knew who he was.
He wasn't exactly outed, but all of the news in LA were digging and were about to come out with something. According to the Daily News, they were going to out him and so he put out that statement. I guess the "I'm working out and lost weight so am getting my wedding ring resized" excuse could only last so long.
QUOTE
Amid a frenzy of media coverage, Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa divulged few new details today about his romantic relationship with a Telemundo newswoman but said it was a "friendship that evolved over time." The revelation of a romantic relationship with television newswoman Mirthala Salinas came to light in a Daily News story today after the mayor had dodged months of questions about the breakup of his marriage.
Surrounded by dozens of reporters after swearing-in ceremonies for recently elected Los Angeles Unified school board members, Villaraigosa said his relationship with Salinas is a personal matter.
When asked how long the relationship had been going on, Villaraigosa said only that it was a "friendship that evolved over time."
<snip>
Since January, the mayor has repeatedly faced questioning that began when reporters noticed he and his wife, Corina, had stopped making public appearances together and his gold wedding band was missing from his ring finger. The mayor glibly rebuffed all probes when the questions reached a peak in January, and aides said he had been working out a lot and lost weight so the ring was at the jeweler's getting resized.
But with the Daily News set to publish a story about his relationship with Salinas, an anchorwoman and reporter for NBC-Telemundo (Channel 52), and his mother-in-law's account of the climactic moment in his marriage, Villaraigosa issued the following statement:
"It is true that I have a relationship with Ms. Mirthala Salinas. As I've said I take full responsibility for my actions, and I once again ask that people respect my family's privacy. For my part, I intend to stay focused on my job, and to work as hard as I can every day to be the best mayor I can be."
Surrounded by dozens of reporters after swearing-in ceremonies for recently elected Los Angeles Unified school board members, Villaraigosa said his relationship with Salinas is a personal matter.
When asked how long the relationship had been going on, Villaraigosa said only that it was a "friendship that evolved over time."
<snip>
Since January, the mayor has repeatedly faced questioning that began when reporters noticed he and his wife, Corina, had stopped making public appearances together and his gold wedding band was missing from his ring finger. The mayor glibly rebuffed all probes when the questions reached a peak in January, and aides said he had been working out a lot and lost weight so the ring was at the jeweler's getting resized.
But with the Daily News set to publish a story about his relationship with Salinas, an anchorwoman and reporter for NBC-Telemundo (Channel 52), and his mother-in-law's account of the climactic moment in his marriage, Villaraigosa issued the following statement:
"It is true that I have a relationship with Ms. Mirthala Salinas. As I've said I take full responsibility for my actions, and I once again ask that people respect my family's privacy. For my part, I intend to stay focused on my job, and to work as hard as I can every day to be the best mayor I can be."
I think everyone knows that Villaraigosa plays around, though. Ms. Salinas was girlfriend of the Assembly Speaker, Fabian Nuñez, when they hooked up - everyone at Telemundo knew that she was flying up to Sacramento for something other than reporting. Fun stuff.
And while I suppose it's 'gentlemanly' to let your wife stay at the mayor's mansion while you squire Latin newsbabes, the fact that he's been screwing around on his wife for years is a little unseemly to some.
QUOTE(Bikerdad @ Jul 11 2007, 10:23 PM)
Questions for debate:
1. Should high-level government officials, Congressmen, or Senators step down if they are found to be included on the list?
Outbound call history? So, based on the implications of this question, if your phone number is found on the outbound call list of anybody we might consider nefarious, you should shut down? Could be a wrong number. Could be a meth dealer taking a shot at telemarketing. Could be a al Qaeda operative trying to cause you trouble...
1. Should high-level government officials, Congressmen, or Senators step down if they are found to be included on the list?
Outbound call history? So, based on the implications of this question, if your phone number is found on the outbound call list of anybody we might consider nefarious, you should shut down
? Could be a wrong number. Could be a meth dealer taking a shot at telemarketing. Could be a al Qaeda operative trying to cause you trouble......and it could be a $300-an-hour escort calling you back to confirm your appointment.
Professional escorts usually don't have to "cold-call" to drum up prospective customers. For the service they sell, there's usually an interested buyer who's already made the first move.
QUOTE(Mike @ Jul 10 2007, 02:35 PM)
1. Should high-level government officials, Congressmen, or Senators step down if they are found to be included on the list?
2. Will there be hearings on capital hill, and if so, what are they likely to achieve?
3. Will the release of these records have any impact on the upcoming 2008 election, and would you vote for an incumbent whose phone number appeared on the list?
4. Will the release of these records remain in the public spotlight for an extended period of time, or will the story blow over quickly?[/b]
2. Will there be hearings on capital hill, and if so, what are they likely to achieve?
3. Will the release of these records have any impact on the upcoming 2008 election, and would you vote for an incumbent whose phone number appeared on the list?
4. Will the release of these records remain in the public spotlight for an extended period of time, or will the story blow over quickly?[/b]
I think the whole scandal will blow over. Right now, the Congress and the Voters are more concerned about other issues, like the Iraq War. That means that Congress is not likely to waste their time dealing with this 1 politician. They simply have bigger fish to fry.
No, Government officials should not necessarily be required to step down. Like other citizens, they are entitled to be presumed innocent before proven guilty.
1. Should high-level government officials, Congressmen, or Senators step down if they are found to be included on the list?
No, not necessarily, unless they made a big deal about being morally superior to their opponents.
2. Will there be hearings on capital hill, and if so, what are they likely to achieve?
Doubtful. If they're doing their jobs, there should be too many hearings about that mess of a war we're in, the cronyism of the Justice Department, the Bush administration refusing Congress' attempts to get administration and former administration employees to testify, ad nauseum... to bother with who is consorting with call girls.
3. Will the release of these records have any impact on the upcoming 2008 election, and would you vote for an incumbent whose phone number appeared on the list?
Yes. It will make marvelous political fodder for candidates running against the incumbents.
Would I vote for an incumbent whose phone number appeared on the list? I guess it depends on who is running against the candidate in question. The issues are what matter.
4. Will the release of these records remain in the public spotlight for an extended period of time, or will the story blow over quickly?
I would hope that the press would not dwell on this. It is trivial in comparison to so many things the people of our country are facing now.
No, not necessarily, unless they made a big deal about being morally superior to their opponents.
2. Will there be hearings on capital hill, and if so, what are they likely to achieve?
Doubtful. If they're doing their jobs, there should be too many hearings about that mess of a war we're in, the cronyism of the Justice Department, the Bush administration refusing Congress' attempts to get administration and former administration employees to testify, ad nauseum... to bother with who is consorting with call girls.
3. Will the release of these records have any impact on the upcoming 2008 election, and would you vote for an incumbent whose phone number appeared on the list?
Yes. It will make marvelous political fodder for candidates running against the incumbents.
Would I vote for an incumbent whose phone number appeared on the list? I guess it depends on who is running against the candidate in question. The issues are what matter.
4. Will the release of these records remain in the public spotlight for an extended period of time, or will the story blow over quickly?
I would hope that the press would not dwell on this. It is trivial in comparison to so many things the people of our country are facing now.
QUOTE(carlitoswhey)
And while I suppose it's 'gentlemanly' to let your wife stay at the mayor's mansion while you squire Latin newsbabes, the fact that he's been screwing around on his wife for years is a little unseemly to some.
I never said it was “gentlemanly”. I merely pointed out that at least he didn’t act like Giuliani. He acted inappropriately; I never said he didn’t. And he didn't spring his decision to separate from his wife and announce his affair via the media. His wife is the one who filed for divorce. Then he made a public statement to that effect (in June). I think we can all agree on his wife's decision to divorce him. He's a hound dog, and hopefully his wife will take him to the cleaners.
But, at least he wasn’t a married man with children soliciting male undercover cops to perform oral sex for money!
QUOTE
Florida Rep. Robert Allen, who is out on bond after being arrested for soliciting an undercover officer for a sexual act, cosponsored a public lewdness bill filed back in January.
<snip>
Police sent a plainclothes officer to check it out and that was when Allen offered to perform a sex act on the male officer for $20. CF News
<snip>
Police sent a plainclothes officer to check it out and that was when Allen offered to perform a sex act on the male officer for $20. CF News
The tit for tat could go on for quite a while, but honestly, I’ll win.
Ahhhhh Fresh Meat!!! Looks like I get to add another hypocrite to my growing list.
Just to remind everyone here, let's rehash what he said in 1998.
Vitter ran on family values and strong ethics(in 2004) when in fact the man has none himself and is a complete and utter hypocrite. Be gone with him I say.
More of, "Do as I say, not as I do."
Just to remind everyone here, let's rehash what he said in 1998.
QUOTE
I think Livingston’s stepping down makes a very powerful argument that Clinton should resign as well and move beyond this mess" *Source Atlanta Journal and Constitution,
Vitter ran on family values and strong ethics(in 2004) when in fact the man has none himself and is a complete and utter hypocrite. Be gone with him I say.
More of, "Do as I say, not as I do."
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