In the First Amendment to the US Const, it states that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

In recent decades, the US has allowed refugees and others from many Muslim-dominated countries to immigrate. There is a very large immigrant Muslim population in Detroit--maybe as large as 200,000 people--for example.

When the First Am was framed, the vast majority of people in the United States were of one Christian sect or another. The First Am didn't even apply to the states until the adoption of the 14th Am and the court cases it spawned, as many states had Christian church membership prerequisites for holding elective office when the Const was adopted.

Today, many US citizens believe all religions to be harmful myths, but myths that can be tolerated so long as individual believers do not attempt to persuade others of the veracity of their faith and do not let this personal religion affect how one behaves in mainstream society. For example, if one prays on one's own, privately, fine, but do not go into public and argue that Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no one comes to the Father except through him, and don't argue that the morality espoused by Christ should apply to everyone. In short, the typical citizen will tolerate religious belief so long as it does not really affect how one behaves in public and does not creep into public discourse. In other words, so long as religion does not really matter, it can be tolerated.

Many people in the US who might call themselves Christians seem to follow this rule of private worship, but many Muslims (although not necessarily ones living in the US) actually follow their faith and allow it to order their entire lives. We are seeing it every day in the press as Muslim religious leaders order their followers to act based upon religious precepts.

Questions for Debate:

1) Is the First Amendment free exercise clause only workable so long as citizens do not really believe their faith to be the paramount ordering element in their lives?

2) Are US citizens unable to grasp how real a threat Islam truly is to this nation because they do not think any religion is significant enough to warrant real concern?

3) Do US citizens believe any immigrant will be so won over by American freedom and materialism that the immigrant's faith will be rendered all-but-meaningless after living in this nation for a few years?

On one's own, like the Christian man blaring into a bull-horn, warning every student and university employee walking through the Oval that we're going to hell unless we accept Jesus Christ as our personal savior during the first few days of the summer quarter? Why do Christians and people concerned with the Muslim threat generally don't notice our own traditional religious practitioners in their midst? Maybe because they don't stick out like sore thumbs compared to Muslims. I know there is a respectable number of Christian activists. I used to be one. Surely, I can't be the only poster who has noticed men passing out little Christian booklets and orange Bibles on sidewalks for years.

Is the First Amendment free exercise clause only workable so long as citizens do not really believe their faith to be the paramount ordering element in their lives?
It is workable as long as there are enough people appreciative of secularism who refuse to put up with the moralizing of Christians and Muslims.

Are US citizens unable to grasp how real a threat Islam truly is to this nation because they do not think any religion is significant enough to warrant real concern?
Are you coyly suggesting atheists are good for something?

Do US citizens believe any immigrant will be so won over by American freedom and materialism that the immigrant's faith will be rendered all-but-meaningless after living in this nation for a few years?
I don't expect this of practicing Christians born and raised here, why should I expect something different from Muslims?

Is the First Amendment free exercise clause only workable so long as citizens do not really believe their faith to be the paramount ordering element in their lives?
Absolutely not. As a Christian and considering "go ye therefore" were the words of Christ I find it difficult not to expect Christians to do just that.

Same goes for other religions, religion is not really a private matter and never has been.

Freedom of religion is simply a outgrowth of freedom of conscience and speech.

It is subject to no more limits that the other basic rights outlined in the First Amendment.

Are US citizens unable to grasp how real a threat Islam truly is to this nation because they do not think any religion is significant enough to warrant real concern?
Leading... but I'll answer.

No. Rather I think most Americans who are familiar with Islam realize it is not a threat in and of itself.

Do US citizens believe any immigrant will be so won over by American freedom and materialism that the immigrant's faith will be rendered all-but-meaningless after living in this nation for a few years?
I hope not.

Personally I think that Chick Publications are hysterical and great handouts at parties! As a geek I can assure the ones warning eternal damnation for playing Dungeons & Dragons were "gifts" to all my geek minded friends.

However, that's hardly the point. A Christian handing out tracts or yelling about my soul is hardly the same as strapping bombs to himself, his wife, his kid to blow up the infidels!

***
Is the First Amendment free exercise clause only workable so long as citizens do not really believe their faith to be the paramount ordering element in their lives?
No. They simply need to be sane about their religion and be inclusive.

Are US citizens unable to grasp how real a threat Islam truly is to this nation because they do not think any religion is significant enough to warrant real concern?
Yes. This is precisely the problem. It's difficult to outbreed a continent so we're less likely to notice what "they're" up to.

Do US citizens believe any immigrant will be so won over by American freedom and materialism that the immigrant's faith will be rendered all-but-meaningless after living in this nation for a few years?
Probably some do. Most probably never think about this at all, what with being really busy with their own lives.

2) Are US citizens unable to grasp how real a threat Islam truly is to this nation because they do not think any religion is significant enough to warrant real concern?
Islam believes in attacking any "infidels" who dare to occupy their "sacred" lands. We had the US army on their lands long before 9/11.
In other words, if the sleeping bear is such a huge threat, why do we continually enter the cave and poke it with a stick to steal the oil out from under it? What do you THINK it's gonna do? Offer us tea and biscuits? It's a BEAR; stop POKING it!

1) Is the First Amendment free exercise clause only workable so long as citizens do not really believe their faith to be the paramount ordering element in their lives?
Maybe if someone's religion says, "come onto our lands and we'll kill you", we shouldn't ignore it and pretend they're attacking us for other reasons! How many Muslims in America HAVEN'T attacked us, and why only ones from oppressed mideast lands where the U.S. army already is? Looks to me like American Muslims aren't the threat we're told they are...and no, I am NOT a Muslim, so you don't have to cower in fear of me. Perhaps the real problem is that we're not able to understand why they'd actually FOLLOW their religion, unlike most American "Christ"-ians...that we're unable to understand people whose faiths ARE the "paramount ordering element in their lives" and heed the warnings therein!

3) Do US citizens believe any immigrant will be so won over by American freedom and materialism that the immigrant's faith will be rendered all-but-meaningless after living in this nation for a few years?
Again, that DOES seem to be the case with the MANY American Muslims...they're already HERE and somehow not offended enough by our Freedom to kill us! Weird.

This entire line of thinking is based on the LIE that Islam has launched some unprovoked war against us, and that the War of Terror isn't just the well-disguised expansion of the New World Order's militant Imperialism that got us attacked in the first place. I'll believe that they're out to kill us just 'cause we're us when the U.S. army ISN'T "protecting" American business interests by helping to oppress middle-eastern populations on behalf of their corrupt, U.S.-business-friendly, NON-DEMOCRATICALLY-ELECTED rulers.

Is there really an uprising of some sort going on here? Since when is the sharia in effect in Detroit or other areas? I don't mean to sound rude, but I don't see this as being an issue.



I believe that they realize that fundamentalist Islam is a significant threat. the 911 commission documented Al-Qaeda's reasons as to why they believe their actions are warranted against the U.S. I don't believe that it is a mystery that they view U.S. boots on Saudi soil to be an insult, not to mention our support for Israel.



Upon what basis is there proof that it hasn't been working thus far? When was the last terrorist attack in Michigan? Perhaps if there were an attack, the question would have some basis in fact. As there hasn't been an effective movement that runs counter to the first amendment, how can we argue against assimilation in this instance based on such scant speculation and evidence?

1) Is the First Amendment free exercise clause only workable so long as citizens do not really believe their faith to be the paramount ordering element in their lives?

Seems the premise here is that to be religious is to do illegal things. I don't buy that premise, and I don't claim to be religious in the standard ways of thinking about that.

2) Are US citizens unable to grasp how real a threat Islam truly is to this nation because they do not think any religion is significant enough to warrant real concern?

Oh, I think we know crazy people when we hear from them. Nope, this isn't a problem. Start yakking about killing people and overthrowing the government, and it's off to the pokey with you. Don't care what strange things you want to believe.

3) Do US citizens believe any immigrant will be so won over by American freedom and materialism that the immigrant's faith will be rendered all-but-meaningless after living in this nation for a few years?

This goes back to the false premise of the first question.

Here's the bottom line: If your religion demands that you do something illegal, like say go into a bank and annoy customers or kill the infedels or run around naked in public hollering some slogan, it's a bad religion. It's bad because it demands you do something illegal, and we have secular laws about your behavior. So basically, go forth and practice your faith however you want, but don't cross the line buster.

Seems reasonable to me. Your freedom to worship cannot impose on other people's freedoms. Don't like it, go somewhere else and see if conditions are better for you. You have the freedom to leave.

Heh, had two church ladies approach my Jeep out in the middle of the mountains, their Bibles in hand, wanting to convert me. Well, that didn't work. And by the time they left, they were sorry for disturbing my peace. Oh well, be careful who you try to convert. He may know more about your religion than you do, like how many leaps of faith it takes to get from here to there and exactly what they are. Besides, they did a rude thing and took a tremendously foolish risk.

I could have had a gun. I might have wanted their money, their truck, and so on. Good religions don't demand that you do stupid things. That's cuz the real spirit wants you to survive and grow. All the others are fooling you.

And there are a passle of others. I see the results of this all the time, nothing special about that. Not much I can do about it either, but if some crazy true believer wants to snuff me, I will, and appropriately so, want to snuff that person first. This goes back to childhood logic, the basic idea of life and survival.

Maybe not all of Islam is crazy. There seems to be as many level-headed ones out there as with any other established religion. But then you have your crazies, and they need to be nipped in the bud. We've tried war, and that just plays right into their game. So, try something else, like good detective and police work. Stop buying their oil, stuff like that.

Don't like it, you are free to leave it be. I am free to worship as I see fit, which excludes those ancient desert religions. Those guys were crazy as loons -- not to disparage loons mind you. It's just an expression. The loon is a right cool bird. You might learn something worthwhile from a loon. I have learned only three worthwhile things from crazy religious zealots -- they are insane, irrational and dangerous. Fortunately, we have laws about that.

I think you've taken the idea of imposing one's religion upon others and claimed that if you can't do this, your religion doesn't matter. I don't think that's the case. I think people's religion should matter greatly to themselves. They can believe what they want. But there has to also be a recognition and respect that not everyone shares those beliefs. The First Amendment is a codification of that concept.

1) Is the First Amendment free exercise clause only workable so long as citizens do not really believe their faith to be the paramount ordering element in their lives?

No. The key phrase is "in their lives." This doesn't mean it has to be the paramount ordering element in everyone's lives.

2) Are US citizens unable to grasp how real a threat Islam truly is to this nation because they do not think any religion is significant enough to warrant real concern?

Islam, itself, is not a threat to this nation... no more than Christianity is a threat to this nation. Islamic Fundamentalism may be a threat, but, in my opinion, so is Fundamentalist Christian Evangelicalism. As has been stated by others, there are reasons for the threat of Islamic Fundamentalism.

3) Do US citizens believe any immigrant will be so won over by American freedom and materialism that the immigrant's faith will be rendered all-but-meaningless after living in this nation for a few years?

No.

From my perspective, America is already a nation partly crippled by Christianity. I'd hate to live in a nation where religion was so interwoven into the very fabric of society as it is over there.

I have no complaint against the USA, but I would never live there. The political atmosphere, the way people constantly yammer on about God, the debates which rage in US society regarding 'religious issues', abortion and the interference of ultra right wing Christian groups would be intolerable.

What America is, is already an frightening example of what allowing Islam to proliferate into Europe will bring us.

1) Is the First Amendment free exercise clause only workable so long as citizens do not really believe their faith to be the paramount ordering element in their lives?

No. The first amendment does not permit believers to usurp the rights of others. The right to religious freedom goes only so far as to not intrude on the protected rights of other citizens, as has been mentioned by other posters. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the order of precedence one regards one's faith in his/her personal life.

2) Are US citizens unable to grasp how real a threat Islam truly is to this nation because they do not think any religion is significant enough to warrant real concern?

No, because again, my (and other Christians and/or Muslims, Buddists, ect) rights to religious freedom only go so far as to not infringe on the direct rights of others. Killing in the name of a religion, or inciting violence is still against the law remains (and should remain) unprotected.

3) Do US citizens believe any immigrant will be so won over by American freedom and materialism that the immigrant's faith will be rendered all-but-meaningless after living in this nation for a few years?

Irrelevant. Whether said immigrant is "won over" or not, they are still subject to our laws, not their own personal guidelines.

Respectfully, our lives aren't exactly 'crippled by Christianity' over here. I live in a big city, and we get all the dirty movies, delivery food and cheap consumer goods that you would expect. We don't even have to pay 25% VAT or 50% income tax, which leaves us lots of money leftover to donate to the church of our choice. We even get freedom of expression, assembly, speech and the right to bear arms!

Seriously, outside of the news shows, hardly any american walks around in 'raging debate' about abortion, "ultra right wing Christians" and the like. We just go about our daily lives, same as everyone. Turn off Fox News and come stay here for a couple months, you'll see what I mean.

So, you have no complaint except the complaint you just made, you mean?

Not everyone "yammers on" about God. The fact that, within our society, we can yammer on about God - or the lack thereof, or whether it's a he or a she or whether it's a giant golden wildebeest - without cars or people blowing up is a pretty good sign of the freedom we do have. There are concerns regarding religious conservatism and its effect on the rest of us who aren't as conservative, but I think it's a bit much to say that America is some sort of frightening example of religious proliferation. The country is, actually, less religiously conservative than it was when it was founded.

If America is an example of what would happen with Islamic proliferation, I don't think it would be so bad. After reading what you've said about the problems with Muslims in your country, I would think an Islamic State set up like America is as a "Christian" State, wouldn't be bad at all.

Would it be equally bad if Americans started immigrating to your country and setting up their "American" society there? We could do things like bring over Starbucks and McDonald's. Perhaps your country or the Swiss could ban the building of Golden Arches... because it is a power symbol of American Judeo/Christian Capitalism.

I wasn't complaining. I was just telling you why I wouln't choose to live in America. I don't mind if America is a religious country or not. It doesn't bother me. America is good for many things. I just prefer where I am now. I fit in. If I lived in America I fear I would be continually frustrated by the religious nature of American culture.

Yes, perhaps its a bit much, or perhaps I'm just reflecting your nations self image back at you.

Its true I've never been to America. But its equally true I've never watched Fox, or listened to all the many conservative political commentators who get mentioned here at so often. Fact is, my perception of the USA largely comes from online debates and that American art & culture which a great many American conservatives describe as being 'leftist'. As a European, its amazing to me, and I'm sure Julian knows what I'm talking about, what consitututes the left and the right in the USA. Your left corresponds more to our right, and your right wing is without parellel over here.

The really scary aspect of it all however is how ingrained religion is in the USA. I see American soldiers in Iraq, standing about before a mission and saying a prayer. A communal prayer! It might be the simplest, most obvious thing for an American, but for me, as a Dane, a European, its so anachronistic that its like watching footage from a hundred years hence. Every single soldier in a company, about to embark on a mission, praying in a circle and I've seen the same thing happened many times with sports people and at demonstrations and on various other 'real life' programmes*. I haven't seen or done anything like that since I was in primary school in the 1970's. I can't begin to tell you how absurd and down right scary it is to see otherwise rational people accepting religion as being a normal aspect of society. This is what I'm talking about.

The USA is often compared to Muslim terrorists by the European media precisely because to so many Europeans, the proliferation of religion in society is the unifying detail. The thing which makes the USA look like the people it is fighting against.


We already have Starbucks, McDonalds and all the other trappings of American culture. These are (mostly) welcomed because they are commercial and benefit both sides of the counter.

Religion is not considered beneficial. It is regarded as a plague, reminiscent of a mental illness by many in Europe, though most remain content so long as religion is not foisted upon them. We accept the golden arches because McDonalds does not make demands upon us.

Religion does.


* by which I mean programmes which do not employ actors but show every day Americas on camera

To be fair, nothing in America parallels the outright racist and fascist political parties that are gaining power in Europe - Britain's BNP, the French National Front, Netherlands' LPF, Austrian Joerg Haider's "Freedom Party," or the like. I mean, for God's sake (excuse the expression), the BNP is reprinting cartoons from Der Sturmer. What's even more scary is that these parties are the only ones making sense on immigration, which means that they may gain real power and soon.

Given the history of actual fascism in Europe, the whopping 30 years since we've had Democracy in most of Southern Europe, and the Balkan civil war and ethnic cleansing of the 90's, I'll take America's "without parallel" right wing over Europe's any day thanks. At least our religious nuts haven't killed 100 million people in the past century.



So, after 30 or 50 years of secularism, you Europeans have evolved past religion, eh? Well, past Christianity and Judiasm, anyway. Good for you. When your daughter is wearing a hijab to avoid violence, you'll be wishing there was something there instead of Islam, though, won't you? I mean, instead of nothing, er rationalism, or whatever it is you have there in paradise. Hard to get people to fight and die to preserve your right to, um, whatever it is, common ag policy maybe?

Utter rubbish, merely evidence that the European media are clueless ideologues (see the BBC). There is one major religion in the world that is currently oppressing and killing people via terrorism. Comparing the zealots in the US with the zealots in Saudi Arabia is apples to pears.

That is an excellent point. Except, of course, that liberal socialism is a religion of sorts, and it demands about 3/4 of your personal income, which we American zealots would find quite demanding indeed. I'd rather be inconvenienced by serving my God and keeping more of my money, than to toil for hours each day to pay for Brussels bureaucracy and my neighbors hip replacement and to fund a Muslim welfare state. But at least you aren't asked to follow any commandments or inconvenience your Sundays!

If the "typical citizen" doesn't tolerate anything beyond "private worship" and religion that doesn't matter, then what is the typical citizen's reaction when the religious exceed these bounds?

Questions for Debate:

1) Is the First Amendment free exercise clause only workable so long as citizens do not really believe their faith to be the paramount ordering element in their lives?The First Amendment works just fine whether citizens really believe their faith, or are merely going through the motions. The purpose of the First isn't to protect Joe Citizen from the persuasion of his fellows, its to prevent his fellows from using government force as a tool of "persuasion."

2) Are US citizens unable to grasp how real a threat Islam truly is to this nation because they do not think any religion is significant enough to warrant real concern?
Yes, some US citizens are prone to such thinking. Other US citizens, mostly, but definitely not exclusively (Christopher Hitchens, a rabid atheist, comes to mind) recognize exactly the significance that religion can be, and thus consider Islam, an ideology AND religion, to be a grave threat. Some US citizens don't consider Islam to be a threat because they're simply clueless, religion having nothing to do with their worldview one way or another. Whether its because they subscribe to multi-culturalism, wherein nothing can actually be a threat, just "different", or subscribe to HBO and Skinemax and the Shopping Channel and are thus so busy being a consummate consumer that they don't care about anything other than the next sale, religion isn't on the radar for them.

3) Do US citizens believe any immigrant will be so won over by American freedom and materialism that the immigrant's faith will be rendered all-but-meaningless after living in this nation for a few years?
There are few, if any, US citizens with such a rosy perspective, certainly not within the span of "a few years." The lure of assimilation as a "solution" is strong, but the long history of Islam leaves me quite skeptical. Are the values so at odds with America's that widespread assimilation is not possible? The recent experiences of Muslim immigration in Europe does not bode well...


Perchance you should consider how irrational and scary is your fear?

I doubt it.
The various nationalist parties of Europe have already reached their ceiling unless I'm mistaken and the more xenophobic they are the less likelihood of their gaining power. They remain, largely, a powerless fringe.


Perhaps not in the past century, but America's past is far from bloody. How many people died at the hands of bible weilding pioneers so the foundling United States, with its lofty ideals could be born? Tyranny and oppression are often masked by such lofty ideals. How confident are you that your nation does not exist because of a Holocaust?

True, Europe, as a whole, has a terrible reputation with regards to murdering people in the name of ideology, but as often as not the ideology being invoked to murder innocent people in Europe, was Christian. You only have to examine the Holocaust to understand why so few Europeans put their faith in religion now. National Socialism was merely following a well trodden path, a trail blazed by the anti semitism and tyranny of a thousand years of bibe reading Christians.

If we are to get into a competetion as to who is the least brutal, then I think Iceland wins.


Its not so much a question of evolution, as of fatigue... or maybe trauma would be a better word for it?

Perhaps yu are right and the next wave of religion will annhilate us, but I am not going to turn to religion just because I am fearful of what lies ahead. Being a Christian is not going to make any difference to me or my family in the decades to come. If I turn to anything it will be nationalism for Denmark is the only allegience I owe.

Also, to be a Christian one must believe in God and I am an agnostic so I would be a liar to boot.


I agree, but my point was about the perception of the European media and people.


Most Europeans already agree that the welfare states are doomed. Very few people of my generation expect to see a state funded pension for example. Things are changing here though it may not seem so. Its not easy to change a continent sized social system over night so it may seem static. There is also a great deal of resistence, both due to greed and socialist ideology, but the long run looks like change is in the air. People in Europe are more materialistic now than they've ever been before. Affluence, and the change of generations is killing socialism as its been in Europe. Even the Swedes have finally seen the light which is no small wonder.

As for the Muslims. They are a problem. They may grow to be a serious problem in the not too distant future, but faced with the proximity of the Middle East, the ease of travel and the guilt of colonialism, then this was always bound to happen when Europe became rich and the Middle East became over populated. I believe America has a similar problem with Latin Americans?

Whats more, these people are here to stay. There is no 'solution' beyond cohabitation and gradual assimilation. If we do it the rational way, maybe we can get through the difficulties of the coming decades. I'm a pessimist by nature so I'm not too confident. I look at America and see how people are and its like looking back into the past. Like looking at the Romans, or the Victorians. The risk we run, as I see it, is allowing religion, any religino to gain a footing in our society as it had before and as I see it having in America now and returning to the horrors of the past. The difference between the Muslims and the Americans seems to be one of scale only, of how far each is prepared to go to foist their religion onto others. Americans are not a threat in this regard, but they do 'evangelise' as the many Jehovah's Witnesses and Scientologists in Europe reveal.

I don't care about wealth. I don't want to 'control all my money', money is an illusion of control. It means nothing. Control requires power and money doesn't give you power unless you have a lot of it, which I don't, and probably never will have. All I want is to be left alone. I don't want people knocking on my door to 'save me', or to drag me off to the gas chambers. I don't want to have to go to church to pay lip service to an idol nor say a prayer because it is the 'done thing'. I do not trust any one who is 'devouitly' religious to be an honest politician and I disdain those like Tony Blair who hide their religious bias in order to get elected.





My history books tell me that as a person whose famiy is half Jewish, and which lost a significant proportion of family members at the hands of God fearing christians, I have everything to fear from religious people and littel to gain.

What reassurances can you give me that my family will not be dragged away to be murdered by the next batch of zealots who come along?

Moif,

I really don't understand what anything you're saying has to do with this topic in Domestic Policy and the dealing with US Freedom of Religion. Being someone who, apparently, believes in no religion vs. freedom of religion, I don't see how what you're saying contributes to this debate. You're not a fan of immigration of Muslims in Denmark. I get it. Understood. But you are talking about Muslim immigration into what you claim is an environment (not entirely) hostile to religion, right? However, this isn't the case in the United States, so... how does the "Muslim problem" in Denmark relate to any kind of perceived threat to the United States?

Once the United States becomes like Denmark in its view of religion, then perhaps we might be susceptible to religious or cultural "overthrow". But, I don't see us becoming like Denmark anytime in the near future. There have been no attempts, as far as I know, to establish Islamic Courts in the US, have there? With a population of 200,000 Muslims in Detroit, there have been more acts of violence against Muslims than the reverse. So, it seems we don't have your "Muslim problem." Perhaps that's because we have a society grounded in religion. Maybe?

entspeak.

Yes. I was merely responding to Carlitoswhey who brought up the Muslims in Europe as an example. I assume the example relates to the second question.

No. You first brought up Muslims in Europe as an example. America, though you have no complaint about this, is a frightening example of what allowing the proliferation of Islam in Europe will bring, you said. All responses regarding Muslims in Europe have been made in regard to that comment. Don't claim you were merely responding to someone else. You introduced the "Muslims in Europe" into the debate. You started making a debate about US into a debate about EU.



But you don't believe that US citizens "do not think any religion is significant to warrant real concern." You think the US is a religious state - that we are pre-occupied with religion. So, I don't understand how your position on Muslims in Europe relates to the second question.

So, perhaps it is my own sense of nationalistic pride, but this is a debate about freedom of religion in the United States as it relates to a, in my opinion non-existent, threat of Islamic dominance in this country. It is posted in a very specific place on the site. If you wish to discuss US Domestic Policy and US freedom of religion, by all means do... but it seems that isn't what you want to talk about. You want to talk about Islamic proliferation in Europe. Keep your "Muslims are bad" garbage to threads where it's, at least, relevant. Don't invade US domestic policy threads with your Danish nationalism - a frightening example of what will occur with a proliferation of nationalism at the expense of religious freedom in this country... about which I have no complaint, of course.

So, it seems we don't have your "Muslim problem." Perhaps that's because we have a society grounded in religion. Maybe?

entspeak, I'm pretty sure whatever Muslim problem we don't have has nothing to do with religion. It does have to do with how we enforce our civil laws.

Here's a concrete example: A Muslim woman wants a driver's licence and is refused because she won't unveil the face for the ID shot. Fine, driving is not a right, so there you go. No driving for you. Better polish up the old thumb.

Good observation that the US recognizes no religious courts. That reduces the chances of some religion getting control so much as to violate the rights of others, although it might be interesting if everyone were required to wear ski masks while in public.

I personally think the Muslim religion is far too restrictive and demanding, a social control scheme. Others are like this too, such as the Ahmish take on things. Apparently some people like the restrictions and demands, not sure why, but then it's none of my business unless they mess with me. Then it is. Then they figure out that I enjoy arguing and leave. Rather quickly.

So people do take their religions seriously in the US. This is allowed up to a point, an obvious one. Shoot, even a Caveman can see that (need :caveman: emotocon).

That is true to a certain extent. I was not making a comment specifically about Europe's Muslims though. I was making a comment about the extent of religion in American soociety and how it is often (though not always) perceived in Europe.


What I actually said was 'America is already a nation partly crippled by Christianity'. Thats not to say America is a religious state. Iran is a religious state and I am not equating America o Iran. Personally I do not have any problem with America being what it is, it doesn't bother me. What I wrote was an explanation of how America is perceived in Europe.

You may wish to discard that perception as is your right, but you ought to stop and consider that the perception of the USA is largely a reflection of how America portrays itself to the rest of the world.


Well first of all, I do not believe Muslims are bad. Its their ideology I take exception to.

Second, my point was not about Islam, but about Christianity and the grip it has on American politics, which as a matter of fact does effect the rest of the planet to some degree since America vigourously exports its religious idea's to the rest of the planet. Denmark included. Americans knocking on my door (both in Denmark and the UK) to offer me salvation testify to this, as does the proliferation of the 'church of scientology' and a whole host of other 'churches' foisted upon the world by the USA.

Third. Sorry, I didn't mean to invade the USA.

1) Is the First Amendment free exercise clause only workable so long as citizens do not really believe their faith to be the paramount ordering element in their lives?

I can't really comment.

2) Are US citizens unable to grasp how real a threat Islam truly is to this nation because they do not think any religion is significant enough to warrant real concern?

Not really, no. I think, if anything, the routine Christianity of most of America is what makes Americans see Islam as less of a threat - they find it harder to imagine Islam ever growing to the point where it was a competing ideology with any chance of winning against Christianity.

What you describe, in fact, sounds more like Europe; or rather, more like non-Catholic Europe (the UK, Scandinavia, the Netherlands). moif may have digressed from the topic a bit (though I think the responses to his post did more to take the thread off-topic than he did), but he did mention that religion in the parts of Europe he and I are from is looked at as, at best, as a quaint eccentricity. Not just Islam, or fundamentalist anything, but ANY public expression of religion is looked upon somewhat askance.

In Europe, it is more often demography, rather than religion, that is the root of concern. It's less that "they" are going to outnumber us by killing enough of us for that to happen, and more that "they" (whichever "they" is the biggest bogey man at the time - 50 years ago it was "the blacks", 500 years ago it was whoever it was; doubtless 5,000 years ago earnest campfire conservations were had about "the Celtic problem") will outbreed "us". Which of course assumes that the immigrant populations are completely immune from the factors that have caused resident populations to have a low birth rate. They may be resistant, but they are not immune, and given long enough the only significant differences between Muslim and non-Muslim Europeans will be relativel minor ones.

I think some people would agree with your question if it were repositioned "Are EU citizens..." for this reason. The old saw about it being better to believe in something than nothing has some resonance among mostly secular, mostly agnostic Northern Europeans - though it's fair to say that it's mostly heard coming from the religious minority, not the agnostics themselves. Because we don't take religion seriously, it's hard to relate to anyone that does without giving the impression (intentionally or not) that we don't take THEM seriously.

For myself, I think this is the secret weapon of agnostics and atheists in a secular society. The one thing that all religions hate more than anything else - to the point where they start getting violent if it carries on long enough - is to be laughed at or ignored. This seems just as true of Islam, especially the loudly proselytising and hate-mongering aspects of it. So let's laugh at it, rather than do what they want us to do and treat it very seriously. Hateful acts require serious punishment, but the rank stupidity behind - say - an honour killing is that you're prepared to kill your family to defend its honour - as if family honour is something that can exist without a family? That deserves to be treated with scorn and derision i.e. laughed at.

3) Do US citizens believe any immigrant will be so won over by American freedom and materialism that the immigrant's faith will be rendered all-but-meaningless after living in this nation for a few years?

Again, I don't think that this is widespread in the USA, but I think it is the dominant view in Europe. I think it is on the decline, stoked by the ignorance of both immigrants and of their host populations, but I also think that, ultimately, it is the destiny of all immigrants to integrate in most significant ways once you get to the third or fourth generation.

Another distinction needs to be made here. Some goals of religious citizens are compatible with that of larger society. The notion of respect, charity, and service are all laudible ideals. That is in stark contrast to the ideals of religion which significantly clash with government and that are outright contradictory of the spirit of the first amendment. People who want to scrap our civil laws in favor of old testament ones, who want legislation to reflect their own values regarding minority segments of our population, not to mention who would drive foreign policy based on the end times and Israel. While you may live your life through your ideals, that is not the type of believer that quick's question is concerned about. He's talking about those who aren't just content in living their values, but rather, those who want to impose it upon others through government and who view the government as an entity that is against them, which may or may not inspire weapons collecting and whispering in forested areas about "big brother."

I ought not do anything of the sort. Done and done. I am not an idiot. I travel quite a bit and for long periods of time. I am perfectly aware of the perception of the USA and how that perception comes about. And there's no need to discuss it here.


Yes, yes, yes, moif. I've read your posts. I know. You do not believe Muslims are bad, you just don't like who they are. I get it.

It's just like saying, I have no problem with homosexual men... it's their attraction to other men I take exception to.



It is true that it will be a long, long time before an agnostic will win the Presidency. I've thought about that quite a bit actually. It may be some time before any person other than one of Christian faith will hold the office. America is, in my opinion, a religious state... it is dominated by Christianity, but has been since it's founding. Which is why it is absurd to say that America "is already a nation partly crippled by Christianity." If any crippling was done, it was done from the get go... and Amercia has been slowly recovering ever since. What we seem to be experiencing now is a resurgence of conservatism - a backward step, if you ask me.

Might we someday no longer be a religious state? Possibly. But not anytime soon.

We are a religious state that, as quick mentions, is battling with the concept of religious freedom in a religious multi-culture. Religion defines most people who practice it devoutly. Just as some political beliefs do not lend themselves to a multi-culture, some religious beliefs come into conflict as well. This doesn't mean that religion is seen as less significant or meaningless in this country. It means that people don't necessarily want it shoved down their throats. I will do my best to respect someone's religious beliefs to the extent that I am aware of them. The only thing I expect in return is the same consideration.

But, even though I am not religious myself, I would hate to see religion disappear from politics entirely. We can't tell people to leave their religion at the door when they come into work. We can tell not to force it on others, and - when it comes to doing what is best for the nation - to temper their belief with respect for those who may not share those beliefs.