I came across this article that is a bit unsettling. I have no idea if this is a nationwide phenomenon or just some fringe element, however, according to this the youth movement is run by the Kremlin.



This article is short and worth a read. Is true fascism rearing it's ugly head again? This smacks so much of Nazi history it's hard to believe.

Questions:
1) Does this surprise you. Why/ why not?
2) Is this reminiscent of Nazism?
3) Can/should the world do anything? If so, what?
4) Other thoughts?

There, you see what I mean about the Daily Mail?!

Does this surprise you. Why/ why not?
Only a little. Putin has already got some political brain-wa...erm enrichment youth groups working for him. Creepy as all get out, but not quite as creepy as this.
Youth Groups Created by Kremlin Serve Putin’s Cause

Nashi is the biggest, I've heard about the other activities... and really how hard is to get teens to ... procreate?


Nashi

Can/should the world do anything? If so, what?
Stop the charade, Russia is not a free state, we should stop treating it like one.

4) Are you sure this isn't from The Onion? Is there someway we can blame Clinton and Lewinski for this? Rove?
3) I'm not sure the NAZIs procreated anymore vigorously than, uh, non-NAZIs.
2) The world should probably look to keep their daughters the Hell out of there.
1) I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this story. Add to that the fact this article is written is such a haphazard fashion I think a committee that never met wrote it over the course of 2 weeks and then a non English speaking naked mole rat tore it apart and put it back together when Elmer's Glue was introduced to the cage.

Well which is it?

After several paragraphs comparing this movement to Hitler Youth:Now they're Communists again.

It's clear that the author already decided some things about Russia he wanted to say and was able to shoe horn them in with this report about Russian Sex Camps. This is a rant without the skill or bile of a Ted Rall or Ann Coulter.

I'd like to more about these sex camps and their magic underwear.

Does this surprise you. Why/ why not?

It's not surprising. The 20th century marked so many dramatic changes in Russia (and the Soviet Union). They went from the Dark Ages to "modern" times in a matter of decades. That's quite a learning curve. Since the days of Stalin, the political course has zigzagged, as if unsure which way it wants to go.

At present it looks like the would-be reformers are suffocated by the powerful and wealthy, with corruption at all levels. And the majority of the Russian people are stuck at the bottom. It isn't surprising that they would be duped by xenophobic propaganda.

Is this reminiscent of Nazism?

Well......in the photo their hands are going from side to side, whereas the Nazis threw the one hand forward. But seriously, it is the desperation of people that garners support for extremism and yes there is a similarity there.

Can/should the world do anything? If so, what?

I don't know. I have little faith in the world's ability to police the rest of the world. Stories like this one cause me to lose the ounce of hope I have left. The only way we could really change things in Russia would be to abolish the corruption that controls politics and business. Then we would have to create a democratic system whereby the population can truly partake in the fruits of its own labor. It sounds a little bit like what we are trying to do in Iraq.

Other thoughts?

I feel a sense of doom about the world right now, so my thoughts run in the direction of pessimism. Man is so full of greed and hunger for power that it seems the only end we will meet will be a fateful one.

I read this article earlier this morning. I got a laugh out of it. I kept imagining some forty-year old Keith Richards-like chain smoking guys with some sex for Russia t-shirts in sea of teens - or a typical Saterday night out at the bar.
Does this surprise you. Why/ why not?
Creating a youth group to counter a youth group is when you break it down, a logical way to counter growing political unrest. This is standard political warefare, the kind the world engaged in before satellites and technology took over. What is creepy about that? It might devolve into a cult but at this point I'd wouldn't call it one.

Is this reminiscent of Nazism?
At this point no. This may change in the future. To me Nazi behaviour begins at the top and then trickles down. I'm not fully convinced the coloured revolutions were genuine public movements and the creation of Nashi may be the counter to that. For true Nazi-like behaviour to take hold we need some sort of disaster to which a leader can effictively sell security over freedom. Here's the order, financial crisis, then a populist man of the military, with the full backing of corporate interests to fullfill his ideas, and enough manufactured consent for him to push through legislation cutting through the red tape to enhance security. Under this definition I'd say the sequence of events favours George more than Vladimer.

Other thoughts?
There might be more complex factors at play here than we realize.

• A declining population presents significant limits to growth, and Russia may not want to follow the route of the French and immigrate large ethnic groups.
• Russia has been under pressure to accept nomination into the european union. I'm thinking breakaway states like Estonia for example need to be shown the Gaza effect, or shall we say an economic seige to show them their behaviour can bring ruin to themselves. What Russia is attempting to show is that the EU is not a viable alternative to communist rule.
• The beauty of this small action is that it can be spread into NATO occupied states as a whirlwind of "public opinion" and not direct Soviet meddling. So, a potential use of Nashi might to foment undercurrents and dissatisfaction in european countries which have accepted NATO and the west - most notably Georgia. C'mon think outside the box!

That an authoritarian government is reaching directly for impressionable children to do its political bidding.

It's not a spontaneous movement, but a cynical organ of the state.

To start, I find this topic to be somewhat...alarmist. Russia, after all, harms no one by this...interesting new social gathering. Except, of course, it's youth. Perhaps one might consider that this "camp" is not some insidious fascist plot, but rather, a desperate attempt to jump-start a wasting population. Can you blame them? Goodness knows, they certainly need to do something, before the rest of Russia becomes just as empty as Siberia.

But of course, I digress. We are meant to answer questions in these threads, no?

1) Does this surprise you. Why/ why not?

Russia has had a declining population for quite some time. While I cannot state with any real accuracy, as to whether or not their current method of tackling this problem is an effective one, i can certainly state that it is an interesting one. So yes, a bit, at their means, but not at their ultimate goal.

2) Is this reminiscent of Nazism?

Now now, let's not bring up that sorry lot. I have no doubt that every country has some aspect or another that links them to those hearty fascist youths, but really, it gets old, very quickly. Texas sharpshooter's syndrome and all that.

3) Can/should the world do anything? If so, what?

I don't think we can. I certainly don't think that wee should, not unless we want to find another way to solve russia's population problem. Let them try their method. Should we interfere, they'd blame us for all that would inevitably have happened anyways.

4) Other thoughts?

The russians control their youth with strong-arm tactics, and varying degress of propogandic brainwashing. (propogandic...let's let that slide for now). The US controls its youth with constant commercial bombardment. Our idea of "free growth" really means "whatever manages to survive the torrid immersion in the veritable sea of subliminal messaging that passes for advertisement in this country". I mean, really. Countries are influencing their children. Shock! Outrage! Should this really be such a big deal? In our own ways, both of our countries are trying to control the next generation, and by extension, the future that they hold in their grubby, sex-stained hands. At least Russia is being open about it.

This is sort of letting the ends justify any means.

I begrudge no one the right to encourage childrearing, it's the xenophobic way it being sold to the youth that is most worrisome here...

...to say nothing of the other , more important and less savory aspects of Nashi.


I know it gets old, but occasionally its relevant. They don't call them the "Putinjugend" for nothing.


..as much as I tire of the manufactured needs that spring without end from corporate America I must draw a distinction between advertising so that I'll go buy a coke, and propaganda so that I'll serve the political needs of the sovereign.

The "country" isn't trying to control America's youth through advertisers, just the companies.. and only to loosen their wallets.

The comparison is lacking.

Uh, well, it may very well have happened. We're talking about Russia. It's too bad the author did so much editorializing. He should have done some real journalism, interviewed historians for input, and quoted them instead of himself.

Yeah, Russia isn't a real democracy, but they dutifully went along with our radical reforms after the S.U. fell and that's what matters. Putin is a bully, but he's their bully. That matters more—for now.

Their birthrate will continue to decline no matter how many brainwashed kids bump nasties in the name of the motherland thinking of the Muslim hordes sweeping up out of Chechnya. Drop a few abortion clinics in the middle of war-torn Darfur and soon enough we'll stop hearing about rape babies and babies in general. Russian women aren't being overrun by Chechnyan rebels, watching helplessly as their husbands and sons are murdered, but generally speaking Russia is politically unstable and


Political stability just isn't something Putin can provide, especially as long as he thinks he needs to act as a counterweight to U.S. regional plans. If Russia really wants to do something about an aging population the Russian way it should go all the way and create a new criminal class by banning contraceptives.

1) No, I can't say I'm surprised. Someone in my office was listening to Catholic radio (blech!), and the host was talking about how Catholics need to have as many babies as possible and raise them to be pro-life, so that they would become the majority, and the evil pro-choice people would eliminate themselves by having so many abortions. The only thing that surprises me about this is that it's considered shocking news.

2) One could argue that it is reminiscient of Nazism, but that's like saying someone is like Hitler because he/she paints badly, as Hitler did. I'm sure that this idea is not original to Nazism.

3) I'm sure the world could do something, but why would they? It's one thing to police the wombs in your own country, but to control the procreation of other nations? Let 'em procreate. They haven't got the money to feed or educate them, so basically you'll end up with a bunch of skinny, ignorant Mogley's (think "Jungle Book) running around.

4) Yeah. My other thought is: are you sure this article didn't come from The Onion? It sure sounds like one of theirs.

Respectfully yours,

Dayna SaGR

1) Does this surprise you. Why/ why not?
No. They are Russians. Almost as loony as the Finns only more dangerous.


2) Is this reminiscent of Nazism?
Kind of. The Nazi's were lunatics too.


3) Can/should the world do anything? If so, what?
Act embarressed and look away...?


4) Other thoughts?
Yes. Russians are notorious in Scandnavia for two things; Vast alcoholic consumption and extreme moral elasticity.

The Russians seem to believe all sorts of strange things these days and its not hard to find Russian intelligentsia harping on about Jewish/American conspiracies or mad science projects which will bring the western world to its knee's. Whats worst of all is their propensity to join dubious political movements which revolve around naked nationalism. Here's a local 'joke'
What do you call one Russian? a Drunk.
Two Russians? A fight.
Three Russians? A political movement.

I think perhaps the Russians just don't know whats up or down. Their whole history is full of repression and revolution and being suddenly faced with the prospects of living without these appears to have left them utterly confused. They're like some back country bumpkin who is brought forwards in time by a hundred years to a cocktail party and finds himself talking to a transvestite and can't figure out whats going on.

I'm really glad I started this thread.



Not really. It would be like something along the lines of 'Someone is the leader of a country, passed a law that forbids challenging him or his policies (forbids a "negative image"), violently squelches opposition, has sponsored numerous political assassinations, placed his own people in all key top positions of government, and oh, yeah....he paints badly too.

This youth indoctrination is certainly indicative of more than a bad art job () would be. Is this something that has been missed in the history books? Youngsters from age 12 up were marching in the khaki uniforms of the Hitler Youth, going on field exercises by day and studied propaganda by night. They took part in such activities with cheer and ran across fields in lederhosen and Bavarian skirts....all the while teenage couples were encouraged to create Aryan babies in those fields, to provide the state with more blond-haired, blue-eyed Soldaten. Ergo, a nationalistic youth group with thousands of members, that is overtly encouraged to propagate babies for the state and is sponsored by the state, is a rather unsettling similarity when coupled with everything else the Putin government has been about.

And I also disagree with Trouble that some "sort of disaster" is necessary. That seems like a list almost tailored to fit Bush. The burning of the Reichstag building was hardly something to be labled of "disastrous" proportion. If a burning building caused the Nazis to come into power, then Juvenal Habyarimana's death caused Rwandan genocide. Simply amazing that our country survived the assassination of Kennedy without lopping off hundreds of thousands of heads!

But even supposing said "disaster" is necessary, they already had one (Beslan school hostage crisis) and another could be improvised at any time. And Hitler was not sponsored by corporations, his government took over the corporations and controlled the means of industry (sort of like Putin... ).

Well, first of all I'd like to point out that the article comes from Daily Mail, the oldest British tabloid. When you read in News of the World that an alien talks to George Bush during his daily briefings, I am sure you take it with at least SOME grain of salt, do you?
"Nashi" is not exactly a movement I sympathize with, but comparisons with Nazism? Come on. Nobody in their right mind will compare the Boy Scout movement with their exersizes, uniforms, salutes, and signs with Nazism, and yet:



Replace the word "country" with the "fatherland", and omnious comparasings will be abound.
I read about these camps in Russian press (and for those concerned, no, not all Russian press is under Putin control - made quite obvious by another poster here who mentioned that some in Russian press call "Nashi" movement "Putinjugend" - would that happen if the press was really all supressed?). Yes, they are promoting early marriages and creation of families (not rampant sex), and yes, they are a political movement with goals of which I do not sympathize... but I have never seen anything about "Love Tents" or anything like that - and I can assure you, that if anything like that would be true, it would be all over Russian press.

What should the world do? We may like it or not (I don't, and I don't like any "patriotic" movements in general, be they Russian or American), but isn't it an internal matter of Russia?


Moif, I'd like to repay you with some nasty joke about Danish as well, but alas... only jokes that come to mind are only about French, Germans, Brits, Poles, and yes, Finns... nations which give material to such jokes with at least some degree of individuality.

Point taken, English Horn.

I've never frequented tabloids, but this article has made its course around some fairly reputable sites. I first read about this on Opinio Juris...not a place I've ever known to reference a tabloid. Mia Culpa, if you say the Russian media would cover this if it were rampant and true, you probably know more than I do about it. Unless Putin has had the evidence suppressed.

I am in the process of googling Russian web sites on the subject of these camps... plenty of articles about brainwashing and such, but haven't found anything yet about "procreationism". I know that their official policy is to promote young families (and anybody who's been in any of those summer camps where both genders are present knows that regardless of country and political affiliations some things will happen...). Anyway, I'll keep looking... I promise that if I find anything that supports allegations in Daily Mail, my "Mia Culpa" message will be posted here within 15 minutes.


P.S. Here's the link to the "Gazeta" newspaper fairly detailed article ("Gazeta" is one of the opposition outlets (in Russian)). The article is full of sarcasm about the camp and it is quite merciless about the morning exersize routines, political hours, etc. The only mention of "procreationism" was the complaint of some blogger that "interaction with the opposite sex is harder than usual" in that camp. Also, according to rumors, some business-minded participants rent their tents to love-stricken couples at the rate of 50 roubles per hour. Funny... yet hardly sinister.

I am the first to poke fun at the Mail (in fact I've never had this much company ), they are not the only ones who have been sickened by the way Nashi has been formed and used.

These are not the boy scouts and these empty comparisons are telling.

This is a political organ of Putin's Kremlin to control impressionable youths and get them to spread a xenophobic, anti-democratic message.

Bush is gulity of many things, but organizing the Boy Scouts to intimidate and harange the opposition?

No.

I guess I wasn't very clear in my original message, I apologize. I did not compare "Nashi" to boy scouts. I deliberately used an organisation as wholesome and plain vanilla as Boy Scouts to show that even they can evoke some sinister comparisons to someone who is unfamiliar with them when their signs, oaths, and codes are taken out of context.
Boy Scouts are not Hitlerjugend, and Nashi are not Hitlerjugend... yet. I don't like Nashi at all... but no need to use comparasings which are so charged.

Perhaps not. I've always been a fan of spare facts rather than comparison.

...but Nahsi is far closer to Hitlerjugend than it will ever be to boy scouts.

This sex-camp story is just a funny side trip... it's the larger purpose and action of this organization that sparks a, somewhat apt, comparison.

I quoted the NY Times to that effect earlier.

The local joke was a Russian joke English horn, told to me by a Russian, related to me as an example. Not an insult. In fact I have told this joke to other Russians since, and they have laughed at it. If the joke is offensive to you then I apologise for offending you.

Feel free to poke fun at Danes all you like. National stereotypes are considered very funny in Europe.

Apology accepted In general, I am not even sure why I got all stirred up... and I do believe that most national stereotypes are rooted in some form of reality ("No smoke without the fire"). Maybe it was the "extreme moral elasticity" comment. Maybe it was because I have a fairly low tolerance for alcohol and get drunk after one bottle of beer?
At any rate, my apology for a jab at Danish people as well.

While we're apologizing, er... could someone give a list of British tabloids? When I think of tabloid, I think of The Enquirer and even the Weekly World News. It's sad commentary that I took the Daily Mail article for a typical bad journo.

Well tabloid doesn't mean quite the same thing in the British context. It's more to do with graphical format than space aliens.


Daily Mail

However did I miss this topic?

Well, here are some observations from a white American males point of view from visiting Russia-

1) Russia loves Putin, to a fault. I believe he very well may be the most popular leader in all of thier history- bar none. He has brought law and order, and some crackdown on corruption, since his time in office.

2) Boris Yeltsin and Gorbachev are singlularly the most hated men in Russia today. More Gorby than Yeltsin- but still hated. They are both seen as allowing the Oligarchs to come to power and rape and pillage the country, until Putin stepped in and saved the day.

Though both are hyperbole- I believe, that mostly, this is true. Business across borders that I do now was nearly impossible under Yeltsin (I wasn't there for Gorby )- but Putin has cracked down big time on the mafia, really big time. The change is astounding.

There are lots and lots of totally beautiful women in Russia that can't find a man to settle down with- so they just settle. It is the early demise of most Russian men that leads to the poor birth rate- simply not enough to go around. Makes for a fun vacation if you are single -

One thing you absolutely notice in big cities such as Kazan (where I go)- is the near total lack of children. It is eary. Every woman wants to help you with your child, if you even appear to have your hands full. I am a good papa, and when I take my kids there, it is noticed, BIG TIME. Also makes for some interesting offers that one normally doesn't entertain in western countries

They are pulling out all the stops there for promoting Russians to have children. I think it is starting to work actually.

I saw no nashi on any of my visits- I hear they are mostly in St Petersburg or Moscow. Not much of that in a VERY ethnically diverse city like Kazan, or Nizhny Novograd or Samara. However- the urge to procreate is quite strong in these cities too- they simply have to find a man, a healthy one, to do that with

I did, perhaps, get to meet some though, because all of my visits involve motorcycles as well when I am there- and there were some versions of Russian punk rockers and "Nuevo rooskies"- as always.


I think there is a resurgance of nationalism, but I see it as no different than what we see here in America, in fact, it may be even healthier there than here. I think we are more nationalistic/fascist leaning as a culture and as a society than they are, big time.

In some ways, they seem like families/tribes banded together, but not really loyal to thier homeland most of the time, and quite cynical about thier history.

I wasn't referring specifically to the Reichstag fire Mrs. Pigpen, I was talking about a society that expands its military commitments to a point which promotes growth of both bureaucracy and debt. Such a condition leaves people vulnerable. Any crisis will plunge the state into gridlock and hyperinflation will lead to desperate measures. The 'men on white horses' please-save-us from ourselves kind. The foothold that lets an otherwise normal, moral public to consider the voice of a radical is financial disaster. In hyperinflationary times desperate measures become palatable, from there democratic ideas are only a Reichstag Fire Decree or a Military Commissions Act from oblivion.

This is a good example of what I am talking about,

Still, the Reichstag burning provided the opportunity to declare emergency power necessary. The powers were told to be in defence of order and freedom, not unlike that of today. The Enabling Act was to be periodically renewed in the same manner as certain provisions of the Patriot Act. Unfortunately the temporary nature wasn't very temporary.



You're right, I chose my words poorly, what I should have said is Hitler had a knack from combining government-business partnerships in a manner comparable to the FISA recommendations of today and proposing the same types of immunization measures for companies that cooperate with surveillance.

Sorry, I probably could have put that better, but I still stand by my point that I'm sure there are many times in history when this kind of "love-in" has been encouraged. Therefore, I do not find it necessary to whip out the Nazi card and throw it on the table. But in future, I will make better analogies.