I really dig Canadians telling us about America.

This is sincerely an OP-ed piece Ultimate Joe.
Check this out alone.


The fact is that this completely negates the notion that poor people in the US may not have upward mobility because of a lack of skills or values that deter them from leaving their current situation.

It's often a near-religion philosophy, in that maybe someone in a poor community would value a job out of HS as opposed to work. I believe that this is what has been/is happening to the black community now in reference to perpetual poverty.

It revolves around a need for instant gratification or a financial need to support ones self. This is coupled by the notion that poor people often won't be surrounded by folks who can/will support higher education or training.

In the US, people like this qualify for grants and loans subsidized by the gov't, but these programs are woefully underutilized.

It's not that people can't change their situation, but often rather don't try to.





I hear what you're saying, but I sincerely think you've missed the point.

A promotion board nearly always will have an idea as to who is who when they get the person's OERs. The person's personal information is almost always kept in the records that go to the board, Mrs P. Height, weight, PT test information, etc. It's all in there. What on earth would make you think that they get to the promotion board, and someone doesn't know anything about them? The CO's put detailed comments, information, etc in these records. It's how it works. Maybe they don't know the guy/gal personally... but it's not like the "yearly review" you get in the civilian world by any means.

You're talking about your father as if people in his generation are making promotion decisions. They're not. Even if they are, promotions are done as a board. It's a collective effort, not one man or woman. Accountability and group thinking always attempt to further the needs of the branch of military. Not surprisingly enough, it's my understanding that often people of color, women, etc are included in these decisions.

Secondly, OER's are always going to be a function of the CO's attitude towards the Marine, soldier, sailor, or whoever. How can you avoid that? It's a fact of life. This is true w/ reviews at Walmart, IBM, or the Quicky Lube.

What you're insinuating is that the majority of the US Military should be suspect for racist ideology, and therefore race based preferences (which a Federal Judge saw as obviously wrong) that promote inferior Marines (or whoever) is necessary. Sure- maybe in 1975. Right now, the Corps is more integrated than any other facet of American life.

The only exception I might make is women, and basically the problem with women in the Corps (and from what I understand the Army) is that their inferior physical prowess and expectation breeds (largely in the enlisted ranks) a seperation. Women don't have to lift heavy items, don't have to perform to the same level on PT tests, etc.

Race based preferences in the Military are not only unnecessary, but frankly counter productive to quality soldiers. Being a Black Commissioned Officer in the US is a brand. It sucks for good guys. People automatically assume that he/she has benefited from such policy and will often scrutinize their performance. What if they were just good? Who really knows. It's kinda like going to a big University that has competitive programs (i.e Grad school, medical school, etc). I went to Grad school at SMU in 2004 for one semester (didn't fail out... actually just got really too tired to go on). It WAS competitive to get in. Why does a good Black student deserve to have people think that they got in due to SMU's AA program? (yes they had one)

The enemy of a soldier, a Marine, a pilot, or a sailor won't give someone a break because they're black or a woman. Neither should the Military in 2007.

I don't wish to draw this off-topic, but this is not exactly true. The promotion board does not look through every applicant's OERs (or OPRs). They simply can't. There are THOUSANDS of applicants and that feat is virtually impossible. Of the large packet, they look at exactly the first and last few lines of the front page (the promotion recommendation form). That is it (and of course, the photo on the top if it's there). That's how it is done in the Airforce for officers, and as the other forces are generally larger I can't imagine it's different for them.

Edited to add: Just to continue my thoughts, a great deal of this process is inherently unfair at the get-go. Only a certain portion of candidates from each base will be selected (a quota system in and of itself). If a candidate happens to be stationed at a base where many are applying for the same rank of promotion, he is competing with all of those people as opposed to another who had the good luck to be stationed at a base where there are far fewer canditates for said slot. So again, the commander can choose only one candidate out of all the applicants for the first slot. I've seen plenty of good minority applicants miss out on promotions...too many to believe that the system is set up unfairly in their favor. I don't think this is a matter as much of "racial quota" as luck.

Edited to add (again...I am mowing the lawn and coming inside when I have a thought...it's a hundred degrees outside please forgive me if this ends up being incoherent):

When my husband was given the opportunity to go to the best fight pilot school in the nation (at Shaw AFB), his list of accomplishments included having his pilot's license and aerobatic training. How many black candidates have that sort of background? How many have families with the opportunity to chuck over thousands upon thousands of dollars for those flying hours? The system is still inherently unfair. It is infinitely better than my dad's day, but it isn't 'even'.

(*I hear ya on incoherent thought... I try to post in between working!*)

You seem to be hinging your argument on the small world of the Airforce Pilot. What about the Army or Marine Corps, for example.

This IS on topic. Follow me.

Annapolis, West Point, the Airforce Academy, etc are all free. We've established that if a poor black man wants to go to college, he probably can if not free- for cheap. Furthermore, if a person wants to go ROTC, he/she can do so as well.

In the Marine Corps, generally there are no prior experience requirements or advantages short of going to the Academy. I assume this is generally true with the Army and Navy too.

What unfair advantage might a Marine Infantry (or Armor, etc) Officer have? An Army Quartermaster Officer? Seriously- follow me. How can previous experience (short of education) benefit a white man?

It can't Mrs P.

The thing is that the Airforce might be different (*we all know darn well it is in many other ways*), but frankly what you're saying about OER's, regardless of our disagreement (for instance, how do they know if someone got a top block OER, etc?) somewhat supports my argument.

If a black officer, short of having a bigoted boss, performs well- he/she will get the same treatment. Why do they need preferential treatment? Are you saying that most officers are bigots?
I'd completely disagree.

I grew up in an Army home and my father is also a retired officer. He was the Battalion Commander of 2nd ACR at Fort Polk at the end of his career. I can say that your assessment of racial preference/advantage on a both objective and anecdotal level does not apply in the Army or Marine Corps.

If a man's job is to run a tank company, or an artillery battery... how could he be advantaged prior to joining the service? (other than knowing someone... which often doesn't make a hill of beans difference)

Oh, please...You know as well as I do that the application process to those places is extremely competitive. It has A LOT to do with who you know because personal recommendations from commanding officers counts for a lot. I know because my father wrote quite a few of those things. Again, how many black candidates have that opportunity? Much more now than before, but not so many as your average white guy-with-friends-in-high-places would have. True, candidates can go through ROTC.



It isn't impossible for a black man/woman to succeed. I don't think anyone is arguing that fact. But take away everything else and the system does favor the white candidate. The commanding officer doesn't have to be a bigot, many things go into the judgement of who should be on the top of that list and many are contingent on background and things which a black candidate has little control.

Before I move on, I'm going to provide a few snippets of you telling me about Canada... I don't like to throw out the term hypocrit, but it certainly seems apt. True or not, you felt perfectly fine telling a foreigner about their country... why would you take umbrage at someone who does the same to you?







Moving on... Mrs. Pigpen's post reminds me of an article I read during a class a few year's back called White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Backpack. I won't post the whole thing for obvious reasons, but here is the first part of the list of conditions which she feels that she experiences as a white person that other minorities do not necessarily enjoy.

1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.
2. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.
3. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.
4. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.
5. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.
6. When I am told about our national heritage or about “civilization,” I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.
7. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.
8. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.
9. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser’s shop and find someone who can cut my hair.
10. Whether I checks, credit cards, or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.

To dismiss racism because the ugly, broad strokes of it are gone is to dismiss sunscreen because you don't get melanoma each time you venture out into the sun.

Oh, and by the way, there is plenty of evidence regarding the myth of class mobility... written by Americans no less. Link.

Sometimes light shining from outside the tent gives us perspective that light within the tent can't.

From the time the Frenchman, Alexis de Tocqueville, penned Democracy in America in 1835, foreign commentary has played integral part in understanding the United States.

If there's any country on the planet that seems to think its their supreme right to meddle in the affairs of other nations and tell them what they're doing wrong and how to do it right, it's the United States of America.

I was kidding with the "lord helmet-lite" crack, but you're doing your best--or worst---to justify it, Aevans176. This was exactly the same line of xenophobia that the dearly departed LH used to throw at Vermillion. It was an act of narrow-minded, jingoistic chauvinism then and it still is now.

This is still "America's Debate" and Canada is part of the North America continent, so by my way of thinking Ultimatejoe is just as qualified to state his opinions about the U.S.A. as someone from a nice little suburb of Dallas.

It's also worth noting a Canadian, Vermillion, is this year's Best Debater, presumably chosen by a majority of American citizens in this year's voting. Apparently, being from the Great White North and commenting intelligently about American affairs such the continuing quandary of race and racism isn't a disqualifying factor for our Canadian colleagues.

Blacks drop out of high school at 1.7 times the rate of whites, partially due to a lesser work ethic and partially due to lower intelligence.

This would appear to be too simplistic an explanation. There are many, many factors involved in the percentage of students who drop out of high school. Here's one study.

Link



(Bold added for emphasis)

All the studies I have seen point out that, in fact, the drop-out rate is much higher for Hispanic-American students than for other ethnic groups. Unless you wish to suggest that Hispanic-Americans have a lesser work ethic and lower intelligence than African-Americans and European-Americans, it's difficult to see how your explanation would apply. In addition, your hypothesis fails to explain why, according to studies I have seen, African-American girls are less likely to drop out than African-American boys. Unless, that is, you wish to claim that females have a higher work ethic and greater intelligence than males; something I would not suggest at all.

In fact, the most obvious and simplest explanation is a classic vicious circle; poverty leads to dropping out, which leads to poverty. Cultural factors play a role, certainly, but other factors would see to be more important.

That's quite the leap in logic. The above might have a modicum of validity if every person lived in the same neighborhood, and was subject to exactly the same experiences. That isn't the case. There are any number of reasons why a person might drop out of school that don't include sloth or stupidity. John goes to a nice school in suburbia. Paul goes to an inner city school. John worries about getting into a good college. Paul worries about getting shot or stabbed. Too bad Paul isn't as concerned with "important things" as John is! He sure is lazy and dumb...I hear that Iraqis are getting lazier and dumber every day....dropping out of school in droves! Amazing such a fundamental shift could happen over so short a timeframe. Someone must have put sloth and stupid pills in their water.

Speaking of "lesser work ethics" and "lower intelligence" where exactly did you find this ridiculous, unsubstaniated and racist little factoid, deng?

Then again, don't bother with a reply. This is just the latest entry in a series of racially biased and inflammatory statements:

Melinda: I was raped yesterday.
Bertha: I hope he was not black.
Melinda: I was lucky, it was a white man. (Jul 31 2007)

The fact is blacks are not going to stop being murdered at six times the rate of whites until they stop murdering at six times the rate of whites. (Jun 24 2007)

This could only happen among a demographic that has been taught disrespect for law and order. The victims of their sick deeds are usually also minorities. A pox lays upon their house that cannot be justified or ignored. (Jun 23 2007)

We could more effectively lower the gun homicide rate by not allowing blacks and hispanics to have guns. (Apr 21 2007)

It does not serve our interests to spend one cent, much less an American life, in Darfur. Let the genocide continue. (Mar 18 2007)

Canada does not have a third world country just south of their border with illegal aliens coming through and taxing their health care system. Nor do they have the large numbers of unassimilated minorities (blacks, hispanics) who overuse the health care system and fail to take the basic proper care of themselves and their children. (Mar 18 2007)

What does this pattern of clear bigotry, bias and racial prejudice indicate about deng?

I dub thee a racist. (Jun 24 2007)