Full Version: Twin Cities Bridge Collapse!
Interstate Bridge Across Mississippi in Minneapolis Collapses
Questions for Debate:
1} How long before Bush/Clinton/Big Construction/Jesse Ventura/Lazy Union Workers/Overweight SUV's etc get blamed?
2} How do you think the Twin Cities First Response plan is going to work out?
3} How long before the first lawsuits are filed?
Questions for Debate:
1} How long before Bush/Clinton/Big Construction/Jesse Ventura/Lazy Union Workers/Overweight SUV's etc get blamed?
2} How do you think the Twin Cities First Response plan is going to work out?
3} How long before the first lawsuits are filed?
What a sad thing to happen tonight in Mn.
Questions tonight who is to be blamed?
How does the Twin cities First Response plan going to work?
How long before the first law suits?
Why would you ask and give names of Bush/Clinton/Jesse Ventura and overweight SUV's?
You also mentioned Big construction.
Well as for the names of people like Bush Clinton Ventura what does that have to do with the price of eggs??
This Bridge was under renovation.
I think it has to do with the people working on this thing. The construction co.
How does twin cities First Response going to work? We will see I am sure by tomorrow.
How long before a lawsuit?
ASAP as sad as that is
Questions tonight who is to be blamed?
How does the Twin cities First Response plan going to work?
How long before the first law suits?
Why would you ask and give names of Bush/Clinton/Jesse Ventura and overweight SUV's?
You also mentioned Big construction.
Well as for the names of people like Bush Clinton Ventura what does that have to do with the price of eggs??
This Bridge was under renovation.
I think it has to do with the people working on this thing. The construction co.
How does twin cities First Response going to work? We will see I am sure by tomorrow.
How long before a lawsuit?
ASAP as sad as that is
This is a much better version of the story:
StartTrib on Bridge Collapse
Obviously the bridge foundation gave way. Although not as massive as the Mississippi crossing at Memphis, the river is still pretty big at its northern end as it flows through Minneapolis.
As for the questions, how the heck should I or anyone else know? Something freaky happened here, probably having to do with hydraulics. I've been on bridges in Minnesota during the spring breakup, and ice floes hammer away at the foundations for a couple of weeks. Add to this aging concrete (40 years old), and maybe that's what happened.
Could be that structures in Minnesota degenerate more quickly than other places. The temp does range from -40 to 90 degrees F, give or take 10-20 degrees.
I do remember reports about aging bridges in the US back in the 90s or 80s. Maybe this was a result of neglect, but that's just conjecture at this point.
Here's what I know for sure. Minnesotans are saying, "Could be worse" right now. And yes, multiple car wrecks are often worse than this. I imagine fallout will run along similar lines, except this thing does need an investigation.
My sympathies to the victims & families.
StartTrib on Bridge Collapse
Obviously the bridge foundation gave way. Although not as massive as the Mississippi crossing at Memphis, the river is still pretty big at its northern end as it flows through Minneapolis.
As for the questions, how the heck should I or anyone else know? Something freaky happened here, probably having to do with hydraulics. I've been on bridges in Minnesota during the spring breakup, and ice floes hammer away at the foundations for a couple of weeks. Add to this aging concrete (40 years old), and maybe that's what happened.
Could be that structures in Minnesota degenerate more quickly than other places. The temp does range from -40 to 90 degrees F, give or take 10-20 degrees.
I do remember reports about aging bridges in the US back in the 90s or 80s. Maybe this was a result of neglect, but that's just conjecture at this point.
Here's what I know for sure. Minnesotans are saying, "Could be worse" right now. And yes, multiple car wrecks are often worse than this. I imagine fallout will run along similar lines, except this thing does need an investigation.
My sympathies to the victims & families.
QUOTE(Bikerdad @ Aug 1 2007, 08:23 PM) 
Interstate Bridge Across Mississippi in Minneapolis Collapses
Questions for Debate:
1} How long before Bush/Clinton/Big Construction/Jesse Ventura/Lazy Union Workers/Overweight SUV's etc get blamed?
2} How do you think the Twin Cities First Response plan is going to work out?
3} How long before the first lawsuits are filed?
Questions for Debate:
1} How long before Bush/Clinton/Big Construction/Jesse Ventura/Lazy Union Workers/Overweight SUV's etc get blamed?
2} How do you think the Twin Cities First Response plan is going to work out?
3} How long before the first lawsuits are filed?
1) Apparently it was 4 hours. Illegal immigrant non union workers seem to be being blamed at the moment. Which is sort of odd.
2) They seem to have done a pretty admirable job.
3) Within minutes no doubt.
Well, if only you could have seen the look on my wife's face this morning when I told her a second bridge hit the pentagon. And yes, she is blonde.
The really bad part about this accident, is making people people aware how of all things you could think of that could cause a bridge to collapse, vibration is as big of factor as anything else. In other words, even though the bridge could sustain hurricane force winds, they can't stand too much vibration.
At least that's what the talking heads were saying last night.
The lawyers are already sharpening their horns, the motions are all prepared, and they are just waiting to see what names to put in the documents.
And of course - it's all Bush's fault.
The really bad part about this accident, is making people people aware how of all things you could think of that could cause a bridge to collapse, vibration is as big of factor as anything else. In other words, even though the bridge could sustain hurricane force winds, they can't stand too much vibration.
At least that's what the talking heads were saying last night.
The lawyers are already sharpening their horns, the motions are all prepared, and they are just waiting to see what names to put in the documents.
And of course - it's all Bush's fault.
1} How long before Bush/Clinton/Big Construction/Jesse Ventura/Lazy Union Workers/Overweight SUV's etc get blamed?
Bush will be blamed immediately even though this is a problem going back decades and one that shows us the sheer incompetence and negligence of “state” or federal regulations. We have thousands of sub standard/defective bridges (and roads) in this country and the states and federal governments have known about it for decades.
Bush will be blamed immediately even though this is a problem going back decades and one that shows us the sheer incompetence and negligence of “state” or federal regulations. We have thousands of sub standard/defective bridges (and roads) in this country and the states and federal governments have known about it for decades.
Leave it to Bikerdad to make light of a tragedy. I haven't seen idiot boy's name attached to this event at all. It's an old bridge subjected to weather extremes. What is mentioned is the heroic efforts on the part of rescuers to find the missing.
A more appropriate question might have been: how soon before the chicken littles on the right start blaming it on terrorists?
A more appropriate question might have been: how soon before the chicken littles on the right start blaming it on terrorists?
QUOTE(Ted @ Aug 2 2007, 10:39 AM)
1} How long before Bush/Clinton/Big Construction/Jesse Ventura/Lazy Union Workers/Overweight SUV's etc get blamed?
Bush will be blamed immediately even though this is a problem going back decades and one that shows us the sheer incompetence and negligence of “state” or federal regulations. We have thousands of sub standard/defective bridges (and roads) in this country and the states and federal governments have known about it for decades.
Bush will be blamed immediately even though this is a problem going back decades and one that shows us the sheer incompetence and negligence of “state” or federal regulations. We have thousands of sub standard/defective bridges (and roads) in this country and the states and federal governments have known about it for decades.
You have a good point here, Ted. From the Mpls StarTrib article, seems the bridge had been given a bad review in 2005. A quoted engineer said that in 1967, bridge design did not incorporate redundant supports like they do today for avoiding this sort of thing.
Okay, my main question on this is:
Why wasn't the bridge closed for repairs?
I can envision a few scenarios. A sports stadium is nearby, could the management of that have impacted safety decisions? The U of M is nearby (West Bank, if I remember correctly). Could pressure have come from there? Or was there ever any concern about the bridge collapsing? Well, it did. I'm not overjoyed if our engineers can't foresee this kind of thing. I'm angry if they did, told the upper-ups and were ignored. That has to be third-degree murder.
Legal or illegal, union or non-union, workers take orders from superiors. That blame game is silly. Point the finger higher, preferably the one between the index and ring. Management gets paid the big bucks for a reason, and part of that reason is accountability.
In any case, this is a man-made structure that collapsed. No act of God was involved (high winds, ice floes, tornadoes -- no hurricanes up there, not even off L. Superior). So this was the fault of humankind. Is that acceptable? Do the families of those killed and injured just roll over and play dead? Probably not, nor would anyone else whose family got hurt.
Think about this: What did the victims do wrong? The only answer to that is nothing. They were going home from their jobs. They were creeping along I guess in the heavy traffic. Were there too many cars? Too many semis? Too much weight and vibration? Well, then maybe truck traffic should have been rerouted, but who's gonna do that? The victims?
Then think about this: What about the bridges you go over on your commute? Do yah trust 'em? How about the people in charge of them?
I know Minnesotans. I was one for 28 years, grew up and worked there, went to college there. Nice people, those Minnesotans. Yep, up to a point. Then watch out! They've got a lot of suppressed anger. Push too far and you get a pop in dah nose.
In this case, the pocketbook would be the next best thing. So I'm anticipating law suits, and they are justified. Somebody screwed up royally, perhaps a whole battalion of screwups.
Is GWB at all to blame? He's a screwup too, but I don't think he's that influential. Nope, this is a local problem central to Minneapolis, MN, the Paris of the Midwest. (Shhhhhh, it's a secret.)
Structural engineering guys have been warming of immenent bridge collapses all over the nation- the only reason we don't have more of this is because of the outstanding engineering decades ago- SOOO many bridges and other infrastructure are way beyond thier design life. I am thinking this is a symptom of the aging infrastructure more than anything. That bridge is over 40 years old, in a very harsh climate, with major temperature changes.
A little inward focus on our own infrastructure instead of trying to fix other countries infrastructure might be a good plan at some point.
Too bad someone has to pay with thier lives to highlight this problem- no matter who's fault it may be
A little inward focus on our own infrastructure instead of trying to fix other countries infrastructure might be a good plan at some point.
Too bad someone has to pay with thier lives to highlight this problem- no matter who's fault it may be
40 years is not old for a bridge, its just entering "middle age". The flanking bridges, Tenth Avenue Bridge (visible in most of the photos) built in 1929 and 3rd Avenue Bridge, built in 1918, are both older.
It is highly unlikely that the workers on the bridge would have been either illegals or non-union, simply because of the nature of gov't contracting, especially in a state like Minnesota.
Why wasn't the bridge closed for repairs? Because the powers that be determined that it wasn't necessary to do so. They were simply doing surfacing work. This is a major arterial, closing the bridge would have had major impacts on traffic, circulation and also pollution. Everything is trade-offs, and without perfect knowledge, risk is always a fickle companion.
One of the key shortcomings of the bridge is that it was non-redundant. I-35W Bridge Info.
It is highly unlikely that the workers on the bridge would have been either illegals or non-union, simply because of the nature of gov't contracting, especially in a state like Minnesota.
Why wasn't the bridge closed for repairs? Because the powers that be determined that it wasn't necessary to do so. They were simply doing surfacing work. This is a major arterial, closing the bridge would have had major impacts on traffic, circulation and also pollution. Everything is trade-offs, and without perfect knowledge, risk is always a fickle companion.
One of the key shortcomings of the bridge is that it was non-redundant. I-35W Bridge Info.
I'm not really interested in playing the blame game when rescuers are trying to recover the bodies of the dead and locate the missing.
Despite what some of the knee-jerk conservatives of the board might think, I'm not going to rush to judgment and blame this on George W. Bush, Cadillac Escalades and the American Bar Association. State and local officials are primarily responsible for the maintenance of bridges and highways. Politicians don't want to go to voters asking for money to replace ancient water and sewer systems, rusting bridges and crumbling highways.
A steam pipe explodes near Grant Central Terminal, a levee fails and floods New Orleans, a bridge collapses in Minneapolis.
These disasters are an indication that this country is not investing enough in keeping its vital infrastructure in good repair, engineering experts warn.
“Governments do not want to pay for maintenance because it is not sexy,” said John Ochsendorf, a structural engineer and an associate professor at Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
He said the bulk of the nation’s highway system was built in the 1950s and 1960s and is ageing. Referring to the collapse in Minneapolis, he said “This type of event could become more common.”
“We have a major infrastructure problem in this country,” said Maureen L. McAvey, an executive vice president with the Urban Land Institute, which recently published a report on global infrastructure issues. “The civil engineers have estimated that we have a $1.7 trillion shortfall in this country alone”
“The American Society of Civil Engineers issues annual rankings of the state of the nation’s infrastructure and most of the grades are C and D,” said Michael J. O’Rourke, a professor of civil and environmental engineering at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. link
The problem of America's infrastructure is too vast and too big a problem to lay blame on any one presidential administration. It's more of a matter of priorities, and apparently it is not one most of us concern ourselves with until disaster strikes.
Unfortunately, the apologists for President Bush stand ever vigilant to defend him even when nobody has criticized him.
Despite what some of the knee-jerk conservatives of the board might think, I'm not going to rush to judgment and blame this on George W. Bush, Cadillac Escalades and the American Bar Association. State and local officials are primarily responsible for the maintenance of bridges and highways. Politicians don't want to go to voters asking for money to replace ancient water and sewer systems, rusting bridges and crumbling highways.
A steam pipe explodes near Grant Central Terminal, a levee fails and floods New Orleans, a bridge collapses in Minneapolis.
These disasters are an indication that this country is not investing enough in keeping its vital infrastructure in good repair, engineering experts warn.
“Governments do not want to pay for maintenance because it is not sexy,” said John Ochsendorf, a structural engineer and an associate professor at Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
He said the bulk of the nation’s highway system was built in the 1950s and 1960s and is ageing. Referring to the collapse in Minneapolis, he said “This type of event could become more common.”
“We have a major infrastructure problem in this country,” said Maureen L. McAvey, an executive vice president with the Urban Land Institute, which recently published a report on global infrastructure issues. “The civil engineers have estimated that we have a $1.7 trillion shortfall in this country alone”
“The American Society of Civil Engineers issues annual rankings of the state of the nation’s infrastructure and most of the grades are C and D,” said Michael J. O’Rourke, a professor of civil and environmental engineering at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. link
The problem of America's infrastructure is too vast and too big a problem to lay blame on any one presidential administration. It's more of a matter of priorities, and apparently it is not one most of us concern ourselves with until disaster strikes.
Unfortunately, the apologists for President Bush stand ever vigilant to defend him even when nobody has criticized him.
QUOTE(nighttimer @ Aug 2 2007, 03:53 PM)
State and local officials are primarily responsible for the maintenance of bridges and highways. Politicians don't want to go to voters asking for money to replace ancient water and sewer systems, rusting bridges and crumbling highways.
No, they don't. Federal government is just the same, but, as you say, maintenance of most infrastructure is a local responsibility. The sad thing is...if they don't have the money for repairs, where are they thinking the money to go through a situation like this is going to come from? Even regardless of the eventual replacement cost of the bridge, how much else is this going to cost Minneapolis and Minnesota, in emergency funds, lawsuits, lost revenue and taxes, lost business, travel delays, etc. etc. Infrastructure mainteanance needs to be considered as insurance; money spent to avoid excessive costs later. Consider the levees in New Orleans...everyone said they couldn't afford it, but how much was the cost of upgrading the levees compared to the cost of the eventual damage that was caused? Miniscule. But politicians always prefer short term gains over long term solutions. Most Americans struggle to pay for health insurance...but they have it because they know they need it. Politicians should take a lesson for that. So should those voting for them. How many times do you hear in the news about the large voting block urging politicians to spend money on these issues? Never, because there isn't one. Hopefully, this might help change that, to avoid similar situations in the future.
On a more upbeat note, it is indeed a small miracle (if not a large one) that nothing more serious happened to the kids in the school bus. I have also found the stories of everyone immediately coming to other's aid uplifting.
1} How long before Bush/Clinton/Big Construction/Jesse Ventura/Lazy Union Workers/Overweight SUV's etc get blamed?
This attempt at cynical humor is facetious at best.
2} How do you think the Twin Cities First Response plan is going to work out?
From what I could tell, the responders behaved the way they should.
3} How long before the first lawsuits are filed?
I would think that the bodies should be recovered first. Considering just how many people were involved, it was amazing that there weren't more deaths.
The infrastructure is aging, bridges in particular. It would have been nice if more money had been apportioned for infrastructure maintenance and repairs and more jobs created to deal with problems such as this one, but I don't think this is a time to point fingers.
This is a tragedy, and it was heartening to hear of the people who stayed around and heroically worked to save lives.
This attempt at cynical humor is facetious at best.
2} How do you think the Twin Cities First Response plan is going to work out?
From what I could tell, the responders behaved the way they should.
3} How long before the first lawsuits are filed?
I would think that the bodies should be recovered first. Considering just how many people were involved, it was amazing that there weren't more deaths.
The infrastructure is aging, bridges in particular. It would have been nice if more money had been apportioned for infrastructure maintenance and repairs and more jobs created to deal with problems such as this one, but I don't think this is a time to point fingers.
This is a tragedy, and it was heartening to hear of the people who stayed around and heroically worked to save lives.
QUOTE(Bikerdad @ Aug 2 2007, 04:08 PM)
40 years is not old for a bridge, its just entering "middle age". The flanking bridges, Tenth Avenue Bridge (visible in most of the photos) built in 1929 and 3rd Avenue Bridge, built in 1918, are both older.
It is highly unlikely that the workers on the bridge would have been either illegals or non-union, simply because of the nature of gov't contracting, especially in a state like Minnesota.
Why wasn't the bridge closed for repairs? Because the powers that be determined that it wasn't necessary to do so. They were simply doing surfacing work. This is a major arterial, closing the bridge would have had major impacts on traffic, circulation and also pollution. Everything is trade-offs, and without perfect knowledge, risk is always a fickle companion.
One of the key shortcomings of the bridge is that it was non-redundant. I-35W Bridge Info.
It is highly unlikely that the workers on the bridge would have been either illegals or non-union, simply because of the nature of gov't contracting, especially in a state like Minnesota.
Why wasn't the bridge closed for repairs? Because the powers that be determined that it wasn't necessary to do so. They were simply doing surfacing work. This is a major arterial, closing the bridge would have had major impacts on traffic, circulation and also pollution. Everything is trade-offs, and without perfect knowledge, risk is always a fickle companion.
One of the key shortcomings of the bridge is that it was non-redundant. I-35W Bridge Info.
Okay, so by your link the governments of Mpls and MN should have been aware of the risk. Yepper, life involves risk. However, you don't get to stick my neck out for me. Put up signs, restrict truck traffic, make the dang risk at least known to those considering crossing the bridge.
The bridge fell down. That is a human responsibility, to keep the bridge up. No act of God sent the bridge down. Ergo, human(s) are culpuble for the deaths, the funeral bills, the medical bills and property damage that resulted.
This may not be pushed by the victims but their insurance companies. Why should the insurance companies pay for someone else's incompetence? Yeah, and I bet there are highly paid investigators on the case right now.
Funny how things happen when money's involved, corporate money at that.
QUOTE(Bikerdad @ Aug 1 2007, 07:23 PM)
Interstate Bridge Across Mississippi in Minneapolis Collapses
Questions for Debate:
1} How long before Bush/Clinton/Big Construction/Jesse Ventura/Lazy Union Workers/Overweight SUV's etc get blamed?
Questions for Debate:
1} How long before Bush/Clinton/Big Construction/Jesse Ventura/Lazy Union Workers/Overweight SUV's etc get blamed?
The "how long before blame is assessed" line of thinking is a disservice to this whole issue. I don't believe that there is, nor should there be, some arbitrary "waiting period" that is due on the grounds out of *respect* for those killed/injured in a given tragedy. To me, it would be disrespectful to not ask why something like this would happen. I could understand how guilt would lead to this defensive posturing in certain quarters, especially if you were a politician who consistently favored low taxes over the needs of infrastructure in your state.
Governor Pawlenty vetoed a transportation spending bill earlier this year that would have directed money to matters like this. There was no reason why this had to occur, it was foreseeable, it was something that was predicted to an extent. The federal government pointed this out 17 years ago that the bridge was "structurally deficient." There are also a number of other bridges in obvious need of repair.This next portion comes from my last hyper-link.
QUOTE
Minnesota’s aging and inadequate bridges present a huge fiscal challenge to a state that has largely neglected its vital transportation infrastructure for the past two decades. State officials have known of the I-35W bridge’s structural shortcomings since at least 2001, but budget constraints dictated that it was not considered for major repairs until at least 2020.
“It takes money, and we haven’t passed any major funding bills for a long, long time,” said Rep. Bernie Lieder, chairman of the state House Transportation Committee. “The problem’s been building up and we aren’t really addressing it.”
“It takes money, and we haven’t passed any major funding bills for a long, long time,” said Rep. Bernie Lieder, chairman of the state House Transportation Committee. “The problem’s been building up and we aren’t really addressing it.”
For the love of Pawlenty, spend the money!.
3} How long before the first lawsuits are filed?
And what would be so wrong with that? Are the courts not the avenue of recourse for the average citizen? If someone backed over your relative, would you just shrug your shoulders and say "oh well"? If I lost my wife and/or kids due to this incident, you'd better believe that I would make it over to Darth Vader & Sons attorneys at law to have someone pay and pay dearly. I would even aim it at my state if they penny-pinched despite being flushed with cash throughout the 1990s. Are you concerned about "outrageous" jugments? I trust my fellow citizen to weigh my claim against another person/state/politician and to judge whether or not I'm due just compensation. I guess I wouldn't trust "the little people" otherwise known as juries to hold states or corporations responsible. When bad things happen, they don't happen for a reason, they just happen, and us peons are to just live with it evidently, lest public or private entities be bothered from losing their precious money.
QUOTE(Bikerdad @ Aug 2 2007, 04:08 PM)
40 years is not old for a bridge, its just entering "middle age". The flanking bridges, Tenth Avenue Bridge (visible in most of the photos) built in 1929 and 3rd Avenue Bridge, built in 1918, are both older.
Middle age by whose standard? This bridge was in need of repair, if not replacement, and the state knew it.
QUOTE(Hopes Dim in Minneapolis for Survivors)
The 40-year-old bridge was rated as "structurally deficient" two years ago and possibly in need of replacement, the Star Tribune reported. The newspaper said that rating was contained in the U.S. Department of Transportation's National Bridge Inventory database.
"We've seen it, and we are very familiar with it," Jeanne Aamodt, a spokeswoman for the Minnesota Department of Transportation, said of the 2005 assessment of the bridge.
Aamodt noted that many other bridges around the country carry the same designation that the I-35W bridge received. She declined to say what the agency was going to do to address the deficiencies found in 2005.
"We've seen it, and we are very familiar with it," Jeanne Aamodt, a spokeswoman for the Minnesota Department of Transportation, said of the 2005 assessment of the bridge.
Aamodt noted that many other bridges around the country carry the same designation that the I-35W bridge received. She declined to say what the agency was going to do to address the deficiencies found in 2005.
QUOTE(Hobbes @ Aug 3 2007, 12:09 AM)
Even regardless of the eventual replacement cost of the bridge, how much else is this going to cost Minneapolis and Minnesota, in emergency funds, lawsuits, lost revenue and taxes, lost business, travel delays, etc.
I have no idea, but perhaps Minnesota's bridge-related expense wouldn't have been as high as it will now be if the government had bitten the bullet and started collecting the necessary taxes years ago, or made the necessary sacrifice in other budgets in the first place. I'm guessing by the following, the government probably couldn't have reallocated taxes towards road/bridge repair even if it wanted to.
QUOTE(Public anger will follow our sorrow)
For half a dozen years, the motto of state government and particularly that of Gov. Tim Pawlenty has been No New Taxes. It's been popular with a lot of voters and it has mostly prevailed. So much so that Pawlenty vetoed a 5-cent gas tax increase - the first in 20 years - last spring and millions were lost that might have gone to road repair. And yes, it would have fallen even if the gas tax had gone through, because we are years behind a dangerous curve when it comes to the replacement of infrastructure [snip]
If you elect people who think government is the problem you get bad government. Not to mention, voters who agree government is the problem will sympathize with the bad outcomes of small government policies. It's easy to when you're not fishing for a body. Here's hoping Minnesota voters start dealing with the reality of their aging infrastructure.
QUOTE
Minnesota’s aging and inadequate bridges present a huge fiscal challenge to a state that has largely neglected its vital transportation infrastructure for the past two decades. State officials have known of the I-35W bridge’s structural shortcomings since at least 2001, but budget constraints dictated that it was not considered for major repairs until at least 2020.
“It takes money, and we haven’t passed any major funding bills for a long, long time,” said Rep. Bernie Lieder, chairman of the state House Transportation Committee. “The problem’s been building up and we aren’t really addressing it.”
“It takes money, and we haven’t passed any major funding bills for a long, long time,” said Rep. Bernie Lieder, chairman of the state House Transportation Committee. “The problem’s been building up and we aren’t really addressing it.”
This is typical across the country. Lets hope they BURY the state in law suits and perhaps other states will get the message.
We could have a topic on roads and bridges alone. How many of you are tired of sitting in traffic jams every summer while the state repairs poorly designed and built roads and bridges again and again and……….
How long before Bush/Clinton/Big Construction/Jesse Ventura/Lazy Union Workers/Overweight SUV's etc get blamed?
The war costs in Iraq are closer to the trillion mark than it is the 500 billion mark. Chew on that while you ponder the estimated cost of repairing ALL the unsafe bridges in the US. Notice how the fiscal amount is less that the waste from the Iraq slaughter? How could you have left out SUV's/Clinton/Bush's billions in Iraq??
The war costs in Iraq are closer to the trillion mark than it is the 500 billion mark. Chew on that while you ponder the estimated cost of repairing ALL the unsafe bridges in the US. Notice how the fiscal amount is less that the waste from the Iraq slaughter? How could you have left out SUV's/Clinton/Bush's billions in Iraq??
QUOTE(TruthMarch @ Aug 3 2007, 12:44 PM)
How long before Bush/Clinton/Big Construction/Jesse Ventura/Lazy Union Workers/Overweight SUV's etc get blamed?
The war costs in Iraq are closer to the trillion mark than it is the 500 billion mark. Chew on that while you ponder the estimated cost of repairing ALL the unsafe bridges in the US. Notice how the fiscal amount is less that the waste from the Iraq slaughter? How could you have left out SUV's/Clinton/Bush's billions in Iraq??
The war costs in Iraq are closer to the trillion mark than it is the 500 billion mark. Chew on that while you ponder the estimated cost of repairing ALL the unsafe bridges in the US. Notice how the fiscal amount is less that the waste from the Iraq slaughter? How could you have left out SUV's/Clinton/Bush's billions in Iraq??
It has begun – not just TM but some idiot from the MN legislation. She implied that the bridge collapse was related to our “priorities” like Iraq! This for a bridge judged “deficient” in 1990. Even though, as mentioned above, the state has had the responsibility to maintain this and ALL bridges in the state and could not deal with the cost so that chose to do nothing.
In a USA Today story I read that recently when 4 foot long stress cracks were found in the bridge the state was given the option of repairing them immediately with metal plates and then looking for more or just look for more cracks. They chose the latter.
Criminal neglect.
1} How long before Bush/Clinton/Big Construction/Jesse Ventura/Lazy Union Workers/Overweight SUV's etc get blamed?
2} How do you think the Twin Cities First Response plan is going to work out?
3} How long before the first lawsuits are filed?
It would seem there is a little bit of the "blame game" happening already and that's an unfortunate thing. One would hope that the NTSB investigation is allowed to run its course before we start assigning blame to anyone. We don't even know what caused the collapse in the first place and I think it's going to take longer than people might think to figure it out. This was a very unusual way for a bridge to fail, I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like it. From the video footage on CNN, it really appears that the bridge failed on both ends nearly at the same time and dropped straight down rather than in a succession of sections or a ripple. I've seen failed bridges (actually freeway overpasses) before in California from earthquakes, but I've never seen one fail like this bridge did. It was like an airplane losing both wings at the same time and I've never heard of that happening either. So. I think the NTSB has a whole lot of work ahead of it and I would hope that the politicians and trial lawyers have a little patience while they figure out what happened.
Edited to add regarding the "response"......
My recommendation to the twin cities would be to enlist the help of the US Army Corp of Engineers to build temporary bridges across the river to help with the traffic situation. The military knows how to construct bridges, specifically pontoon bridges that can carry tanks across a river. I would think they could do something like that in Minneapolis in pretty short order.
Aquilla
2} How do you think the Twin Cities First Response plan is going to work out?
3} How long before the first lawsuits are filed?
It would seem there is a little bit of the "blame game" happening already and that's an unfortunate thing. One would hope that the NTSB investigation is allowed to run its course before we start assigning blame to anyone. We don't even know what caused the collapse in the first place and I think it's going to take longer than people might think to figure it out. This was a very unusual way for a bridge to fail, I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like it. From the video footage on CNN, it really appears that the bridge failed on both ends nearly at the same time and dropped straight down rather than in a succession of sections or a ripple. I've seen failed bridges (actually freeway overpasses) before in California from earthquakes, but I've never seen one fail like this bridge did. It was like an airplane losing both wings at the same time and I've never heard of that happening either. So. I think the NTSB has a whole lot of work ahead of it and I would hope that the politicians and trial lawyers have a little patience while they figure out what happened.
Edited to add regarding the "response"......
My recommendation to the twin cities would be to enlist the help of the US Army Corp of Engineers to build temporary bridges across the river to help with the traffic situation. The military knows how to construct bridges, specifically pontoon bridges that can carry tanks across a river. I would think they could do something like that in Minneapolis in pretty short order.
Aquilla
the way the bridge fell was very wrong. ripple and twist and then slowly fall. Collapse and buckle with pieces falling yes.
Just drop? Something was very wrong about this. I have read some unconfirmed stuff that says the investigators have already begun to focus on one end of the bridge.
I would have expected the bridge to fall that way if it was being demolished.
Scary thing is that minnesota doesn't rate that bad infrastructure-wise
Just drop? Something was very wrong about this. I have read some unconfirmed stuff that says the investigators have already begun to focus on one end of the bridge.
I would have expected the bridge to fall that way if it was being demolished.
Scary thing is that minnesota doesn't rate that bad infrastructure-wise
QUOTE(christopher @ Aug 3 2007, 09:42 PM)
I would have expected the bridge to fall that way if it was being demolished.
According to the articles I've been reading truss bridges are non-redundant. Meaning, if one section gives way, every other section follows. Most truss bridges were built around 40 - 50 years ago. Ohio has the most truss bridges of any state. Hurray.
QUOTE(Ohio tops list of states with truss bridges)
A department spokesman said the agency couldn't say how many of the truss bridges are among the more than 150,000 bridges nationally that have been rated as structurally deficient or functionally obsolete, the latter rating signaling that they've been designated for replacement.
I believe this department official like I believe the FDA couldn't release the names of pet food distributors carrying melamine tainted products.
QUOTE(Ohio tops list of states with truss bridges)
But Nair said that many of the steel deck truss bridges are rated deficient only because of cracks in the concrete deck, which wouldn't cause a collapse."For a bridge like this to fall all the way down, not just a partial failure, but a complete failure,'' he said, would normally require a buckling of the steel superstructure or concrete support piers.
Inspectors found cracks they believed were due to steel fatigue. The state could continue inspecting or add reinforcing steel plates. They decided to continue with inspections and perform minor repairs.
QUOTE(Lesly @ Aug 4 2007, 08:58 AM)
QUOTE(christopher @ Aug 3 2007, 09:42 PM)
I would have expected the bridge to fall that way if it was being demolished.
According to the articles I've been reading truss bridges are non-redundant. Meaning, if one section gives way, every other section follows. Most truss bridges were built around 40 - 50 years ago. Ohio has the most truss bridges of any state. Hurray.
What you've read is correct and had the bridge collapsed in progression, that would be a pretty normal thing for that kind of a failure. What confuses me though, and I'm not bridge expert by any means was that based on the CNN video, the entire thing seemed to come down at once. It looked like both sides failed at the same time. That would be highly unusual.
Aquilla
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