Full Version: Barry Bond's new record
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070808/ap_on_...su/bbn_bonds756
Well, Barry Bonds officially hit the 756th home run to surpass Hank Aaron.
Given the steroid abuse scandal involving this man, many baseball fans and people in
the public like myself will not likely accept Barry Bonds as the true record holder.
So the question for debate is
1. Has the steroid abuse scandal tainted Barry Bond's record?
2. After Bonds retires, will the public at large accept Barry Bond's home run record or will he be seen as a cheater?
Well, Barry Bonds officially hit the 756th home run to surpass Hank Aaron.
Given the steroid abuse scandal involving this man, many baseball fans and people in
the public like myself will not likely accept Barry Bonds as the true record holder.
So the question for debate is
1. Has the steroid abuse scandal tainted Barry Bond's record?
2. After Bonds retires, will the public at large accept Barry Bond's home run record or will he be seen as a cheater?
QUOTE(skeeterses @ Aug 8 2007, 04:08 AM) 
So the question for debate is
1. Has the steroid abuse scandal tainted Barry Bond's record?
Yes.1. Has the steroid abuse scandal tainted Barry Bond's record?
QUOTE(skeeterses @ Aug 8 2007, 04:08 AM)
2. After Bonds retires, will the public at large accept Barry Bond's home run record or will he be seen as a cheater?
Yes. The asterisk will fade and eventually Steroids and Juiced balls and aluminum bats will make 1000 homeruns a career the standard of the elite.QUOTE(skeeterses @ Aug 8 2007, 03:08 AM)
1. Has the steroid abuse scandal tainted Barry Bond's record?
Tainted? In my eyes Hank Aaron still holds the record. To others, yes it has been tainted and it will always leave a bad taste in many baseball fan's mouthes. The of course you have the excuse makers and apologists who say Bonds is no worse than any other player and besides 25% percent of Hank Aaron's home runs were done in a field nicknamed the launching yard.
1. Has the steroid abuse scandal tainted Barry Bond's record?
I am always a firm believer that one is innocent until proven guilty. However I am not a firm believer in coincidence. With the evidence that I have seen up to this point, I do in fact believe that the home run record is tainted. If you look at Bond's numbers, he was a HOF player up to age 30. From ages 30-34, he had a dropoff in power and production which is to be expect from an aging player. But his best years occurred after 34. The amount of homeruns that he has amassed in the past couple of years is astounding. I think that he cheated along with Canseco, Mcgwire, Sosa, Palmerio, and others. The Steroid Era is real and it has hurt the sport. Luckily, Alex Rodriguez will hit 800 homeruns if he could just hit 30 a year for the next 10 years. Arod plays the game right and he will be cheered. Bonds' record will forever be tainted, even if it is never firmly proven.
2. After Bonds retires, will the public at large accept Barry Bond's home run record or will he be seen as a cheater?
I do not think that he will get the reception he wants, but he'll get what he deserves. Ruth and Aaron were true homerun hitters that had the utmost respect for the game. I think Bonds will not receive the same acclaim from the fans that those two remarkable players did. And when Arod breaks the record, God willing, he will be championed.
I am always a firm believer that one is innocent until proven guilty. However I am not a firm believer in coincidence. With the evidence that I have seen up to this point, I do in fact believe that the home run record is tainted. If you look at Bond's numbers, he was a HOF player up to age 30. From ages 30-34, he had a dropoff in power and production which is to be expect from an aging player. But his best years occurred after 34. The amount of homeruns that he has amassed in the past couple of years is astounding. I think that he cheated along with Canseco, Mcgwire, Sosa, Palmerio, and others. The Steroid Era is real and it has hurt the sport. Luckily, Alex Rodriguez will hit 800 homeruns if he could just hit 30 a year for the next 10 years. Arod plays the game right and he will be cheered. Bonds' record will forever be tainted, even if it is never firmly proven.
2. After Bonds retires, will the public at large accept Barry Bond's home run record or will he be seen as a cheater?
I do not think that he will get the reception he wants, but he'll get what he deserves. Ruth and Aaron were true homerun hitters that had the utmost respect for the game. I think Bonds will not receive the same acclaim from the fans that those two remarkable players did. And when Arod breaks the record, God willing, he will be championed.
1. Has the steroid abuse scandal tainted Barry Bond's record?
For many, it will taint his record. In the larger scheme, I'm not sure. It certainly remains a heck of an accomplishment.
2. After Bonds retires, will the public at large accept Barry Bond's home run record or will he be seen as a cheater?
Again, it depends on your personal viewpoint. How many home runs would Babe Ruth have hit if he worked out more instead of living up to his larger than life image? Maybe.
Barry Bonds has always been a great player. He hasn't been the most popular player, but his numbers speak for themselves. Over 500 career stolen bases, all time leader in walks, Bonds has only led the league in HRs twice in his career. So if he was cheating, he wasn't doing it very well.
To add, it isn't as if Bonds was not a home run hitter early in his career and then he suddenly juiced up and started hitting them. Like many hitters, he gained power as he hit his mid-to-late-20s, hitting between 30 and 50 HRs a year between ages 29 and, well, 43. Looking over Bonds' career stats I don't see this slump that leder refers to. And who's to say ARod never "juiced". Bonds has never tested positive for anything and ARod is simply a beast. The guy is huge!
For many, it will taint his record. In the larger scheme, I'm not sure. It certainly remains a heck of an accomplishment.
2. After Bonds retires, will the public at large accept Barry Bond's home run record or will he be seen as a cheater?
Again, it depends on your personal viewpoint. How many home runs would Babe Ruth have hit if he worked out more instead of living up to his larger than life image? Maybe.
Barry Bonds has always been a great player. He hasn't been the most popular player, but his numbers speak for themselves. Over 500 career stolen bases, all time leader in walks, Bonds has only led the league in HRs twice in his career. So if he was cheating, he wasn't doing it very well.
To add, it isn't as if Bonds was not a home run hitter early in his career and then he suddenly juiced up and started hitting them. Like many hitters, he gained power as he hit his mid-to-late-20s, hitting between 30 and 50 HRs a year between ages 29 and, well, 43. Looking over Bonds' career stats I don't see this slump that leder refers to. And who's to say ARod never "juiced". Bonds has never tested positive for anything and ARod is simply a beast. The guy is huge!
1. Has the steroid abuse scandal tainted Barry Bond's record?
The issue is mostly irrelevant.
I am not concerned about the asterick. An asterick was placed after Roger Maris's name when he broke Ruth's season record by hitting 61 homers in a season. It seems the schedule had been 158 games when Ruth hit 60, but 162 games when Maris hit 61. Had Mickey Mantle broken Ruths's record, my cynical soul tells me there would have been no asterick. I don't know if the Maris asterick has been removed.
Balls already seem to have been juiced - some seasons more than other.
Aluminum bats are scary. When the crack of the Louisville Slugger becomes a ting of an aluminum bat, I'm through.
The issue is mostly irrelevant.
QUOTE(BaphometsAdvocate @ Aug 8 2007, 09:01 AM)
The asterisk will fade and eventually Steroids and Juiced balls and aluminum bats will make 1000 homeruns a career the standard of the elite.
I am not concerned about the asterick. An asterick was placed after Roger Maris's name when he broke Ruth's season record by hitting 61 homers in a season. It seems the schedule had been 158 games when Ruth hit 60, but 162 games when Maris hit 61. Had Mickey Mantle broken Ruths's record, my cynical soul tells me there would have been no asterick. I don't know if the Maris asterick has been removed.
Balls already seem to have been juiced - some seasons more than other.
Aluminum bats are scary. When the crack of the Louisville Slugger becomes a ting of an aluminum bat, I'm through.
Let me be clear, Bonds was always a HOFer. He had the talent and he had the numbers...no doubt about it. But lets look at the numbers. Disregarding 2005 where he only played in 14 games, his power numbers have gone up or stayed relatively consistent from age 35 on. That doesnt happen, it never happens. The guy can no longer play defense, he can't run...yet his hitting has gotten better. When Aaron hit 755, his power numbers were strongest during his youngest years. Bonds' power numbers are strongest during his oldest years. Bonds has been targeted by federal probes for years into the BALCO investigation and has been called out by former teammates. Arod...I don't know if he has juiced up. But never has there ever been a single allegation even made.
1. Has the steroid abuse scandal tainted Barry Bond's record?
Absolutely. No matter how many others were 'doing it too,' BALCO is the only lab that has been raided by the feds. Associates of Mr. Bonds, including his trainer, have gone to jail as a result. His name is all over the grand jury testimony, and he may ultimately be charged with perjury.
2. After Bonds retires, will the public at large accept Barry Bond's home run record or will he be seen as a cheater?
I think he'll be seen as a cheater.
First, due to the obvious steroid usage and associations. If he's charged with perjury, that will definitely taint his legacy, putting him in league with Pete Rose. On the positive side, it creates a forum to talk about the greatness of other players who did it 'clean,' people like Frank Thomas, Ken Griffey Jr., and even Hammerin' Hank himself, who went through most of his career shaped like the 'old' Barry Bonds. And who was a far superior fielder, which used to matter in these conversations.
Secondly, people are starting to notice the hinge in the gear on his arm. It's similar to what bowlers wear, and helps make his swing mechanics perfect every time. It started as an arm guard in the early 90's, developed a hinge, and by 2001 the thing was a huge mechanical hinge. I am not aware of anyone else in baseball who employs such a device, and I believe no one ever will. You see, Bonds is 'grandfathered' in wearing the device. For a new player to receive permission to use such an "arm guard" (which is really a mechanical swing enhancer), he would need to prove injury to his elbow.
Here is a link. I don't like E&P's political bias, but I have no reason to doubt this author's sincerity.
Absolutely. No matter how many others were 'doing it too,' BALCO is the only lab that has been raided by the feds. Associates of Mr. Bonds, including his trainer, have gone to jail as a result. His name is all over the grand jury testimony, and he may ultimately be charged with perjury.
2. After Bonds retires, will the public at large accept Barry Bond's home run record or will he be seen as a cheater?
I think he'll be seen as a cheater.
First, due to the obvious steroid usage and associations. If he's charged with perjury, that will definitely taint his legacy, putting him in league with Pete Rose. On the positive side, it creates a forum to talk about the greatness of other players who did it 'clean,' people like Frank Thomas, Ken Griffey Jr., and even Hammerin' Hank himself, who went through most of his career shaped like the 'old' Barry Bonds. And who was a far superior fielder, which used to matter in these conversations.
Secondly, people are starting to notice the hinge in the gear on his arm. It's similar to what bowlers wear, and helps make his swing mechanics perfect every time. It started as an arm guard in the early 90's, developed a hinge, and by 2001 the thing was a huge mechanical hinge. I am not aware of anyone else in baseball who employs such a device, and I believe no one ever will. You see, Bonds is 'grandfathered' in wearing the device. For a new player to receive permission to use such an "arm guard" (which is really a mechanical swing enhancer), he would need to prove injury to his elbow.
Here is a link. I don't like E&P's political bias, but I have no reason to doubt this author's sincerity.
QUOTE(editor and publisher)
1) The apparatus is hinged at the elbow. It is a literal "hitting machine" that allows Bonds to release his front arm on the same plane during every swing. It largely accounts for the seemingly magical consistency of every Bonds stroke.
2) The apparatus locks at the elbow when the lead arm is fully elongated because of a small flap at the top of the bottom section that fits into a groove in the bottom of the top section. The locked arm forms a rigid front arm fulcrum that allows extraordinary, maximally efficient explosion of the levers of Bonds' wrists. Bonds hands are quicker than those of average hitters because of his mechanical "assistant."
3) When Bonds swings, the weight of the apparatus helps to seal his inner upper arm to his torso at impact. Thus "connected," he automatically hits the ball with the weight of his entire body - not just his arms - as average hitters ("extending") tend to do.
4) Bonds has performed less well in Home Run Derbies than one might expect because he has no excuse to wear a "protector" facing a batting practice pitcher. As he tires, his front arm elbow tends to lift and he swings under the ball, producing towering pop flies or topspin liners that stay in the park. When the apparatus is worn, its weight keeps his elbow down and he drives the ball with backspin.
5) Bonds enjoys quicker access to the inside pitch than average hitters because his "assistant" - counter-intuitively - allows him to turn more rapidly. Everyone understands that skaters accelerate their spins by pulling their arms into their torsos, closer to their axes of rotation. When Bonds is confronted with an inside pitch, he spins like a skater because his upper front arm is "assistant"-sealed tightly against the side of his chest.
6) At impact, Bonds has additional mass (the weight of his "assistant") not available to the average hitter. The combined weight of "assistant" and bat is probably equal to the weight of the lumber wielded by Babe Ruth but with more manageable weight distribution.
2) The apparatus locks at the elbow when the lead arm is fully elongated because of a small flap at the top of the bottom section that fits into a groove in the bottom of the top section. The locked arm forms a rigid front arm fulcrum that allows extraordinary, maximally efficient explosion of the levers of Bonds' wrists. Bonds hands are quicker than those of average hitters because of his mechanical "assistant."
3) When Bonds swings, the weight of the apparatus helps to seal his inner upper arm to his torso at impact. Thus "connected," he automatically hits the ball with the weight of his entire body - not just his arms - as average hitters ("extending") tend to do.
4) Bonds has performed less well in Home Run Derbies than one might expect because he has no excuse to wear a "protector" facing a batting practice pitcher. As he tires, his front arm elbow tends to lift and he swings under the ball, producing towering pop flies or topspin liners that stay in the park. When the apparatus is worn, its weight keeps his elbow down and he drives the ball with backspin.
5) Bonds enjoys quicker access to the inside pitch than average hitters because his "assistant" - counter-intuitively - allows him to turn more rapidly. Everyone understands that skaters accelerate their spins by pulling their arms into their torsos, closer to their axes of rotation. When Bonds is confronted with an inside pitch, he spins like a skater because his upper front arm is "assistant"-sealed tightly against the side of his chest.
6) At impact, Bonds has additional mass (the weight of his "assistant") not available to the average hitter. The combined weight of "assistant" and bat is probably equal to the weight of the lumber wielded by Babe Ruth but with more manageable weight distribution.
QUOTE(lederuvdapac @ Aug 8 2007, 11:17 AM)
Let me be clear, Bonds was always a HOFer. He had the talent and he had the numbers...no doubt about it. But lets look at the numbers. Disregarding 2005 where he only played in 14 games, his power numbers have gone up or stayed relatively consistent from age 35 on. That doesnt happen, it never happens. The guy can no longer play defense, he can't run...yet his hitting has gotten better. When Aaron hit 755, his power numbers were strongest during his youngest years. Bonds' power numbers are strongest during his oldest years. Bonds has been targeted by federal probes for years into the BALCO investigation and has been called out by former teammates. Arod...I don't know if he has juiced up. But never has there ever been a single allegation even made.
Hank Aaron hit 40 HRs at the age of 39. Yes, his HRs dropped the next year to 20, but I don't think it is a truism that 40 years old is the end of someone's ability to hit HRs.
Similar to Bonds, Hank Aaron's ability to play the field suffered in his later career (he only hit 20 HRs in 112 games with the Braves in 1974) and only his trade to the American League (to the Brewers) allowed him to play the two additional seasons that allowed him to hit 22 more HRs. Hammering Hank's batting average was significantly lower than his .305 career average during his last four seasons.
QUOTE(skeeterses @ Aug 8 2007, 03:08 AM)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070808/ap_on_...su/bbn_bonds756
Well, Barry Bonds officially hit the 756th home run to surpass Hank Aaron.
Given the steroid abuse scandal involving this man, many baseball fans and people in
the public like myself will not likely accept Barry Bonds as the true record holder.
So the question for debate is
1. Has the steroid abuse scandal tainted Barry Bond's record?
2. After Bonds retires, will the public at large accept Barry Bond's home run record or will he be seen as a cheater?
Well, Barry Bonds officially hit the 756th home run to surpass Hank Aaron.
Given the steroid abuse scandal involving this man, many baseball fans and people in
the public like myself will not likely accept Barry Bonds as the true record holder.
So the question for debate is
1. Has the steroid abuse scandal tainted Barry Bond's record?
2. After Bonds retires, will the public at large accept Barry Bond's home run record or will he be seen as a cheater?
I'm going to answer these questions by focusing on the good.
The people who get to decide the worth of this record are the 8 and 10 year-old little league players who dream of being the next Home Run King, and play little league imagining that the humble bleachers are a sold-out stadium-- with computers and all there are about 30 of such kids left, nationwide.
Will the next generation of baseball fans even know or care what BALCO is? I'm not sure, at age 9, I could have understood what steroids are. And if I had a 9 year old ask me tomorrow about Barry Bonds, I think the last thing I would tell him is that he is under investigation for cheating. Let them have a sport untainted by cynicism, even if it involves Santa Claus-like deception.
For the rest of us, I will keep a different memory from last night. Hammering Hank was a Braves player, and an idol of mine growing up, so it was like reconnecting with a more innocent time when I saw his face, aged and weathered, flashing across the big screen to congratulate his successor. There, on the screen, was an unquestionably adored hero, a face from a less cynical time, both because that time was less tainted by drug use in sports, and general culture-wide cynicism -- but because that time was childhood for a lot of Barry's contemporary skeptics. Last night reminded me of two things: one, that my childhood heroes were, at least in a few cases, real people. And two, some of those real people could have an almost godly, miraculous sense of class. Hank Aaron may have lost his record, but with that announcement he's retained that childlike admiration I still have for him. And what else matters?
This is a tough call. It's a fair bet Bonds took steroids. But Ruth had to face guys throwing spitballs and other doctored pitches. Aaron didn't wear protection like today's players do and get half the plate taken from him. Today's pitchers aren't as strong because of the 5 man rotation. Back in Ruth's day, pitchers pitched every 3rd or 4th day and pitched complete games because speciality pitchers (relievers, closers, etc) didn't exist causing them to have more arm strength. Bonds got his homers off of mostly fresh pitchers. Of course, 30-40 years ago, roughly half of today's pitchers would still be in Triple A.
I think all eras have their own advantages, but I think Aaron got his during a period of more fairness.
But make no mistake about Bonds - he's very, very good at the plate no matter how far he hits the balls. He hit all these homeruns when most pitchers were trying to walk him. No amount of help can put the bat on the ball the way he does. At the end of the day, he will be labeled a cheater because people don't like him. Our only connection to a ball player is through the media - we can't talk to these guys ourselves. So when they treat the media with disdain, they are treating the fans with disdain. And if reports are true about the way he treats his teammates, the guy is a certifiable douchenozzle.
But he is still one of the top 5 hitters to play the game with steroids or no steroids.
I think all eras have their own advantages, but I think Aaron got his during a period of more fairness.
But make no mistake about Bonds - he's very, very good at the plate no matter how far he hits the balls. He hit all these homeruns when most pitchers were trying to walk him. No amount of help can put the bat on the ball the way he does. At the end of the day, he will be labeled a cheater because people don't like him. Our only connection to a ball player is through the media - we can't talk to these guys ourselves. So when they treat the media with disdain, they are treating the fans with disdain. And if reports are true about the way he treats his teammates, the guy is a certifiable douchenozzle.
But he is still one of the top 5 hitters to play the game with steroids or no steroids.
QUOTE(drewyorktimes @ Aug 8 2007, 11:14 AM)
Hank Aaron may have lost his record, but with that announcement he's retained that childlike admiration I still have for him. And what else matters?
In 1973, when Hank Aaron was chasing Ruth's record - getting all sorts of hate mail - I wrote him a letter of support. I didn't ask for anything - a ball, an autograph.
A few weeks later I got a letter of appreciation typed on Braves stationery signed by Aaron.
Such things have "value" on the collectable market. It may be worth a little less, or possibly more today, but it's not for sale. It hangs in my living room. I hope the person I pass it on to will appreciate it.
1. Has the steroid abuse scandal tainted Barry Bond's record?
Absolutely. The irony of last night was reported on the news that the MLB commissioner didn’t attend the game but was meeting with the lead investigator of the BALCO case. There’s no question in my mind the Bonds abused steroids, his coy claim of “I really didn’t know what I was injecting” sums it up for me: a highly paid skilled athlete who relies on his body to perform and he doesn’t know what he’s injecting?
Please.
2. After Bonds retires, will the public at large accept Barry Bond's home run record or will he be seen as a cheater?
Barry Bonds started the end of my baseball junkie years (the ’96 strike finished it off). This guy has been such a jerk his entire career, I used to cringe whenever they showed his locker room escapades. He showed no respect to his fellow team mates, managers, fans, and the media. Even before the “steroid years” he showed such a lack of respect for America’s game that it came to me as no surprise that he would be implicated in steroid abuse.
Can’t speak for the general public, but I’ll never accept his record. The only saving grace is A-Rod is ahead of Bonds in his trek of the record.
And carlitoswhey, excellent work on the “hinge”. Never realized he used this, but once again reinforces my belief that Bonds has no respect for the game.
Absolutely. The irony of last night was reported on the news that the MLB commissioner didn’t attend the game but was meeting with the lead investigator of the BALCO case. There’s no question in my mind the Bonds abused steroids, his coy claim of “I really didn’t know what I was injecting” sums it up for me: a highly paid skilled athlete who relies on his body to perform and he doesn’t know what he’s injecting?
Please.
2. After Bonds retires, will the public at large accept Barry Bond's home run record or will he be seen as a cheater?
Barry Bonds started the end of my baseball junkie years (the ’96 strike finished it off). This guy has been such a jerk his entire career, I used to cringe whenever they showed his locker room escapades. He showed no respect to his fellow team mates, managers, fans, and the media. Even before the “steroid years” he showed such a lack of respect for America’s game that it came to me as no surprise that he would be implicated in steroid abuse.
Can’t speak for the general public, but I’ll never accept his record. The only saving grace is A-Rod is ahead of Bonds in his trek of the record.
And carlitoswhey, excellent work on the “hinge”. Never realized he used this, but once again reinforces my belief that Bonds has no respect for the game.
1. Has the steroid abuse scandal tainted Barry Bond's record?
Absolutely. Steroid use has diminished the respectability of all sports where such drugs are used to enhance ability.
2. After Bonds retires, will the public at large accept Barry Bond's home run record or will he be seen as a cheater?
He looks like one of the meanest players I've ever seen. I have heard that one of the side effects of steroid use is volatility. Boy, he sure exudes that. If I were him, I would feel ashamed and would not accept such a record. It is a person's "natural" abilities that are admirable. There is no sweetness to this achievement.
Furthermore, his own disdain for the world around makes it that much easier to discard his record.
Absolutely. Steroid use has diminished the respectability of all sports where such drugs are used to enhance ability.
2. After Bonds retires, will the public at large accept Barry Bond's home run record or will he be seen as a cheater?
He looks like one of the meanest players I've ever seen. I have heard that one of the side effects of steroid use is volatility. Boy, he sure exudes that. If I were him, I would feel ashamed and would not accept such a record. It is a person's "natural" abilities that are admirable. There is no sweetness to this achievement.
Furthermore, his own disdain for the world around makes it that much easier to discard his record.QUOTE(doomed_planet @ Aug 8 2007, 12:18 PM)
He looks like one of the meanest players I've ever seen. I have heard that one of the side effects of steroid use is volatility. Boy, he sure exudes that. If I were him, I would feel ashamed and would not accept such a record. It is a person's "natural" abilities that are admirable. There is no sweetness to this achievement. Furthermore, his own disdain for the world around makes it that much easier to discard his record.
Furthermore, his own disdain for the world around makes it that much easier to discard his record.Doomed, you need to see the movie Cobb, starring Tommy Lee Jones. It was based on a book by the late sports writer Al Stump. Cobb was the meanest of the mean, in my opinion. He defined mean in a day when steroids were not an isssue.
Cobb makes Bonds, and for that matter Pete Rose, look angelic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Stump
QUOTE(DaytonRocker @ Aug 8 2007, 10:46 AM)
Our only connection to a ball player is through the media - we can't talk to these guys ourselves. So when they treat the media with disdain, they are treating the fans with disdain. And if reports are true about the way he treats his teammates, the guy is a certifiable douchenozzle.
The story that cemented my attitude regarding Barry didn't come filtered through the media. It came from Ron Kittle, AL Rookie of the Year and home run leader of the 1983 White Sox (who ran away with the AL West that year). Ron was in the Wrigley Field clubhouse, asking visiting players to sign items for his kids cancer charity fundraiser. He asked Barry to sign something and Barry told him "I don't sign for white people." Obviously, some players held him back because he wanted to kill Barry right then and there. When confronted with the story, Bonds didn't even deny it, preferring instead to make fun of Kittle's journeyman career.
Bonds is a scumbag. While he's unquestionably one of the best hitters ever, I hope the tax evasion and the perjury catch up with him, and maybe teach him some humility.
Steroids or not the guy's still got to hit the ball very well consistently. He broke the record and it will stand for ages, no chance of 1000 being the new mark to beat. 
QUOTE(TruthMarch @ Aug 8 2007, 04:39 PM)
Steroids or not the guy's still got to hit the ball very well consistently. He broke the record and it will stand for ages, no chance of 1000 being the new mark to beat.
You must not pay much attention to baseball. Alex Rodriguez recently hit 500 home runs faster than any Major League player.
Here is a quick blurb on him by wiki
QUOTE
Since 1996 (his first full season) through 2006 he leads the major leagues in home runs (HR), runs scored, runs batted in (RBI), total bases and extra-base hits. Of all players in baseball history at age 30, he is first all-time in both HR and runs scored, 2nd in total bases and extra base hits, 3rd in RBI, and 4th in hits. In his career to that point, Rodriguez had more HR, more RBI, more runs scored, and more base hits than all-time leaders Hank Aaron (RBI), Barry Bonds (HR), Rickey Henderson (runs scored), and Pete Rose (hits) did prior to their 30th birthdays. He also shares the MLB record (and holds the AL record) for most home runs in the month of April, hitting 14 in 2007.
He has often been cited as the among best all-around players currently in baseball.[1] Rodriguez is also known for signing the richest contract in sports history, a 10-year, $252 million deal.[2]
Rodriguez is the youngest player ever to hit his 500th home run, breaking the record Jimmie Foxx set in 1939.
He has often been cited as the among best all-around players currently in baseball.[1] Rodriguez is also known for signing the richest contract in sports history, a 10-year, $252 million deal.[2]
Rodriguez is the youngest player ever to hit his 500th home run, breaking the record Jimmie Foxx set in 1939.
A-Rod will smash Bond's record in due time with a lot more class and dignity.
QUOTE(Sleeper @ Aug 8 2007, 05:36 PM)
A-Rod will smash Bond's record in due time with a lot more class and dignity.
Maybe! It depends on several factors.
1. How many more homers Bonds hits,
2. Whether or not Rodriguez stays healthy,
3. When A-Rod's skills start deteriorating.
Some years ago, I thought Ken Griffey, Jr. would break Aaron's record. His trip to Concinnati seems to have ended that and Bonds came out of nowhere.
Anyone ever get a chance to try and hit a ball thrown by a major League pitcher?
You see the arm move and you hear the ball hit the glove--that fast.
Ted Williams said he could see them on the way in?
That would be exceptional to most humans
Bonds hit em over and over and over.
Anyone ever have any experience with steroids? Maybe they add a little distance to your hit but not enough to make you
a consistent home run hitter. Its more the SNAP of your swing than the strength of your arm.
Who cares if Bonds is a nice person--I aint paying for nice.
I am paying for long ball. Bonds has always been a great hitter--since day one.
A Rod may be the youngest--but I believe the guy he replaced on the charts only went on to hit a few more homers before
his career was over.
Bonds earned his title. Astericks are for people on the sidelines who watch OTHERS make history and are jealous.
p.s pitchers cheat too--and Bonds STILL leveled them.
You see the arm move and you hear the ball hit the glove--that fast.
Ted Williams said he could see them on the way in?
That would be exceptional to most humans
Bonds hit em over and over and over.
Anyone ever have any experience with steroids? Maybe they add a little distance to your hit but not enough to make you
a consistent home run hitter. Its more the SNAP of your swing than the strength of your arm.
Who cares if Bonds is a nice person--I aint paying for nice.
I am paying for long ball. Bonds has always been a great hitter--since day one.
A Rod may be the youngest--but I believe the guy he replaced on the charts only went on to hit a few more homers before
his career was over.
Bonds earned his title. Astericks are for people on the sidelines who watch OTHERS make history and are jealous.
p.s pitchers cheat too--and Bonds STILL leveled them.
QUOTE(skeeterses @ Aug 8 2007, 04:08 AM)
1. Has the steroid abuse scandal tainted Barry Bond's record?
Obviously it has, at least for now. I don't know that it should, for reasons posted already here. You try and hit major league pitches. Go ahead, amp up on steroids. You can even do a line of crank if you think it will help. GO!
QUOTE(skeeterses @ Aug 8 2007, 04:08 AM)
2. After Bonds retires, will the public at large accept Barry Bond's home run record or will he be seen as a cheater?
The public will most likely be split. Some will see him as a cheater, some will not.
Note: Hank Aaron was a true hero. He went after the record with scores of death threats from White Supremacist freaks coming in daily, and he always conducted himself with courage, integrity and dignity. Barry Bonds isn't really fit to carry his duffel bag, but that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve his own place in history.
QUOTE(BoF @ Aug 8 2007, 12:01 PM)
QUOTE(drewyorktimes @ Aug 8 2007, 11:14 AM)
Hank Aaron may have lost his record, but with that announcement he's retained that childlike admiration I still have for him. And what else matters?
In 1973, when Hank Aaron was chasing Ruth's record - getting all sorts of hate mail - I wrote him a letter of support. I didn't ask for anything - a ball, an autograph.
A few weeks later I got a letter of appreciation typed on Braves stationery signed by Aaron.
Such things have "value" on the collectable market. It may be worth a little less, or possibly more today, but it's not for sale. It hangs in my living room. I hope the person I pass it on to will appreciate it.
Wow. What a item-- for my own selfish reasons I hope that 'person' you pass it on to is the Smithsonian. A-Rod or someone else may and probably will break Bond's record, but I think Hank Aaron's story will always be the one people look back upon: dignified, likable black man takes a lot of hate mail in stride as he swings through an American legend's biggest record. The reference to non-violence, civil rights, etc, is unmistakable.
At best, sports echo history with an unambiguous victory for the good guys (google, 1980 hockey team olympics, for instance, or almost any sports movie). At worst, sports echo the worst of our history, ambiguous and full of off-field distractions from the purity of athleticism. (see, Ali banned in his prime, Tanya Harding, Mike Vick taking the season off, etc.) People will remember the daring grace of Johnny Unitas's QB sneaks -- which weren't half as astounding as Mike Vick's -- long after they forget about the brief moment when Vick was an amazing athlete, not an icon of animal cruelty.
Comparing Bonds to Aaron, I think its pretty clear which baseball story represents which.
Since I was dumb enough to sell all of my baseball cards in high school (ouch), my only Hank Aaron momento is a photo of me in my little league uniform. #44 is hand-stitched in the bad mesh ball cap. As Reggie Jackson once said, gotta keep a #44 running around them bases.
BoF, that's a cool story and a great souvenir.
BoF, that's a cool story and a great souvenir.
[quote name='skeeterses' date='Aug 8 2007, 01:08 AM' post='223194']
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070808/ap_on_...su/bbn_bonds756
Well, Barry Bonds officially hit the 756th home run to surpass Hank Aaron.
Given the steroid abuse scandal involving this man, many baseball fans and people in
the public like myself will not likely accept Barry Bonds as the true record holder.
So the question for debate is
1. Has the steroid abuse scandal tainted Barry Bond's record?
Yes, absolutely!
2. After Bonds retires, will the public at large accept Barry Bond's home run record or will he be seen as a cheater?
I can only hope that he's seen as a cheater! I'm sure that they're are at least a few on AD who spent wonderful times with fathers or mothers at baseball games. Great lessons could be taught as a result of observing someone like Sandy Koufax; i.e. "if you work hard, son, to be the best like Sandy, then you will be the best!" I shudder to think that Barry Bonds has now surpassed Hank Aaron's record. Dedication, fair play and sportsmanship were worthy goals and exhibited by the athletes. Many times their successes involved personal triumph over adversity. These were people our sons and daughters idolized. Now, we don't know who wins for sure until the test results come back!
Take a minute and think of some of the greatest baseball players and then consider whether Barry Bonds and his like even belong on a list with these men:
Lou Gehrig, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Joe DiMaggio,Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Duke Snider etc....
We still must have worthy heroes for our kids, and Barry Bonds can't be one of them!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070808/ap_on_...su/bbn_bonds756
Well, Barry Bonds officially hit the 756th home run to surpass Hank Aaron.
Given the steroid abuse scandal involving this man, many baseball fans and people in
the public like myself will not likely accept Barry Bonds as the true record holder.
So the question for debate is
1. Has the steroid abuse scandal tainted Barry Bond's record?
Yes, absolutely!
2. After Bonds retires, will the public at large accept Barry Bond's home run record or will he be seen as a cheater?
I can only hope that he's seen as a cheater! I'm sure that they're are at least a few on AD who spent wonderful times with fathers or mothers at baseball games. Great lessons could be taught as a result of observing someone like Sandy Koufax; i.e. "if you work hard, son, to be the best like Sandy, then you will be the best!" I shudder to think that Barry Bonds has now surpassed Hank Aaron's record. Dedication, fair play and sportsmanship were worthy goals and exhibited by the athletes. Many times their successes involved personal triumph over adversity. These were people our sons and daughters idolized. Now, we don't know who wins for sure until the test results come back!
Take a minute and think of some of the greatest baseball players and then consider whether Barry Bonds and his like even belong on a list with these men:
Lou Gehrig, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Joe DiMaggio,Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Duke Snider etc....
We still must have worthy heroes for our kids, and Barry Bonds can't be one of them!
While some players power numbers do increase when they get older, who, besides Bonds, had their feet grow 2.5 sizes? http://talksport.com/tm.asp?m=571919&m...ey=򋨏
QUOTE(christopher @ Aug 9 2007, 10:27 AM)
Anyone ever get a chance to try and hit a ball thrown by a major League pitcher?
You see the arm move and you hear the ball hit the glove--that fast.
Ted Williams said he could see them on the way in?
You see the arm move and you hear the ball hit the glove--that fast.
Ted Williams said he could see them on the way in?
Actually this story is true.
Retired AL umpire Ron Luciano wrote a hilarious book about his "exploits" as a minor and major league umpire in a book called "The Umpire Strikes Back".
According to Luciano, he was arguing this point with Williams at a pre-game practice in the early 70's saying that everyone knows you can't see a baseball hit the the bat. So Williams went out to the field, dragging the ump with him, and coated a bat with pine tar. Then he called for some hot rookie pitcher to throw him some fastballs, and called five of the six or seven pitches perfectly, as they compared each ball to where Williams said he had hit it. Pretty impressive for a guy in his 50s at the time.
As for Bonds, whether or not he juiced up may never be proven. But with the allegations, and all of the people surrounding him that have been proven to have used them, or have admitted to administering them in the Balco scandal, it would be more than a little naive of someone to think he was the only one in this entire scandal who wasn't juicing. So, yes, I think his record is, and will remain, tainted.
QUOTE(skeeterses @ Aug 8 2007, 03:08 AM)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070808/ap_on_...su/bbn_bonds756
Well, Barry Bonds officially hit the 756th home run to surpass Hank Aaron.
Given the steroid abuse scandal involving this man, many baseball fans and people in
the public like myself will not likely accept Barry Bonds as the true record holder.
So the question for debate is
1. Has the steroid abuse scandal tainted Barry Bond's record?
2. After Bonds retires, will the public at large accept Barry Bond's home run record or will he be seen as a cheater?
Well, Barry Bonds officially hit the 756th home run to surpass Hank Aaron.
Given the steroid abuse scandal involving this man, many baseball fans and people in
the public like myself will not likely accept Barry Bonds as the true record holder.
So the question for debate is
1. Has the steroid abuse scandal tainted Barry Bond's record?
2. After Bonds retires, will the public at large accept Barry Bond's home run record or will he be seen as a cheater?
It has tainted his record and no doubt, people in the future will opine endlessly about it. Then again, that's what sports radio is all about.
As for the second question, I believe it will be accepted. Yes, he cheated, but I believe that people forget that baseball wasn't a pristine sport to begin with. Catchers scuff the ball in the dirt, pitchers make cuts into the ball; both do so with the intent of making a ball drop more when a curve is thrown. Batters have hallowed out bats and filled them with cork. George Brett used too much pine tar, and the old Washinton Senators use to put balls in the freezer so that 500 foot homeruns would become 500 foot pop ups. Seriously people, hall of famers have cheated in the past, Barry Bonds isn't the first. Now that it has been some time after the event of #756, I'm really not hearing anything about the record book writers or other folks somehow refusing to acknowledge what Bonds did.
I remember vividly when Hank Aaron broke Babe's record, and I was pretty young. Flashing numbers on the TV, being woke up by my grandma to see the record, my grandmama saying "now there is something to remember little fella- that man is a truly graceful sports hero, someone kids like you can look up too"-
It was HUGE news, day and night, as he came closer, and it was a frenzy.
I didn't even notice the "bump" in the news the day Bonds broke the record- it was no big deal.
And that is how Barry should be remembered- no big deal, who cares, a juiced up racist jerk, who should have his records yanked- and BTW- I feel the same way about Cobb.
It was HUGE news, day and night, as he came closer, and it was a frenzy.
I didn't even notice the "bump" in the news the day Bonds broke the record- it was no big deal.
And that is how Barry should be remembered- no big deal, who cares, a juiced up racist jerk, who should have his records yanked- and BTW- I feel the same way about Cobb.
Rodriguez will own the lifetime record within a decade. The single season record is the one that will be hard to beat without steroids. They need to give that record back to Maris.
QUOTE(deng @ Aug 19 2007, 10:54 PM)
Rodriguez will own the lifetime record within a decade. The single season record is the one that will be hard to beat without steroids. They need to give that record back to Maris.
Rodrigiez hit his 500th homerun at an earlier age than anybody, so that's a definite possibility.
Sleeper said essentially the same thing. Here is my answer to him.
QUOTE(BoF @ Aug 8 2007, 06:23 PM)
Maybe! It depends on several factors.
1. How many more homers Bonds hits,
2. Whether or not Rodriguez stays healthy,
3. When A-Rod's skills start deteriorating.
Some years ago, I thought Ken Griffey, Jr. would break Aaron's record. His trip to Concinnati seems to have ended that and Bonds came out of nowhere.
1. How many more homers Bonds hits,
2. Whether or not Rodriguez stays healthy,
3. When A-Rod's skills start deteriorating.
Some years ago, I thought Ken Griffey, Jr. would break Aaron's record. His trip to Concinnati seems to have ended that and Bonds came out of nowhere.
There is a parallel in golf.
Jack Nicklaus holds the record for most major wins in professional golf – 18. At age 32 and with 13 majors, it’s likely that Tiger Woods will eclipse him.
With both Rodriguez and Woods, the key is staying healthy and hoping mother nature doesn’t take their skills too soon. There are no guarantees in life – not for you, not for me, not for Alex Rodriguez, not for Tiger Woods.
BTW: When Roger Maris broke Babe Ruth's single season record, an asterick was placed by the feat, because Ruth played a 154 game schedule and Maris an expanded 162 game season. I think it was eventually removed. There were also people who wanted to place an asterick behind Hank Aaron's record, because he played longer than Ruth. The asterick is not a new idea. Despite the record and two MVP seasons, Roger Maris is still not in the Hall of Fame. Where, oh where is Cooperstown's head - if it has a head, that is.
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