Is this the correct thing to do?

Do you think this crackdown will expose (more) of the flaws and problems of the current immigration laws.

Will Congress actually respond to this in a way that Pres. Bush wants (to a lesser or greater degree)?

How will this affect the employers? The (illegial) immigrants? Us? Nation as a whole?

What will be the outcome of this crackdown?

On the enforcement side of the equation-yes. However, it will be lacking as the reform side of the equation(i.e.-speeding up the paperwork, streamlining the process so that it doesn't take seven years to become a citizen, etc.) needs to be dealt with in a humane, non-racist way.



They're gone for the rest of the month, I doubt they'll be in a hurry to deal with it. The new rules don't kick in for another month anyways. There will be absolutely no pressure on them to do a thing.



The employers' response to this is quite entertaining. One counter-argument ran along the lines that the workers would stop paying taxes and do contracting just with cash. If that is a problem, then we'll crack down on that. Another argument was that employers would move operations overseas. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it would be hard to farm overseas when the plots of land are here. These and other entertaining arguments can be found here. However, my favorite business argument against enforcement is that it forces employers to become policemen.. Well, guess what, it's your job to make sure your employees check out, that's why you have a human relations department, or check that out yourself!. You are to police your own business as you have taken that upon yourself!. The business arguments against Bush's new policy just don't hold water.



I'm curious as to how this will possibly backfire on the republican party in key states where hispanic immigrants make up a large number of the electorate. New Mexico, Arizona, Texas, and other states would be prime target for attack ads that point out the "mean-spirited" nature of the proposed actions. Put up an ad featuring a soldier whose family was deported, or put up a tearful boy who tells of how he left the nation that he loved and was escorted back-it would be a political goldmine opportunity wise for whoever runs against the republican nominee. Without reforming the citizenship process, this is going to come across very negatively.

Is this the correct thing to do?

Going after employers should be priority #1, and this is the very first time I can say GW is doing something right! About time, first time in what, 7 going on 8 years!

Do you think this crackdown will expose (more) of the flaws and problems of the current immigration laws.

If they really go after employers, hard core, no, it will effectively kill illegal immigration for economic reasons. No job= no economic incentive

Will Congress actually respond to this in a way that Pres. Bush wants (to a lesser or greater degree)?

I certainly hope so- I hope we see some long jail terms, really long ones, with fines that are twice what the business is worth. I want some examples made here!

How will this affect the employers? The (illegial) immigrants? Us? Nation as a whole?

First- who cares? They are traitors and law breakers! They very well could be harboring the next 9/11 attackers. There is a reason for immigration laws- a very good one. It is not a case of "victimless crimes" here. We need our business owners to live by the laws of employment, and they SHOULD be policing thier employees, big time.

What will be the outcome of this crackdown?

If it turns into a real crackdown, we will have more legal immigration and less illegal immigration, as it should be.


Seems to be working:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070811/ap_on_..._migration_drop

Is this the correct thing to do?

Of course, it's the only thing that will work IF it is enforced on a consistent, fair basis! Too bad we can't have a website that lists the names of employers who hire illegals much as we do other lawbreakers! If this involves a raise in retail prices, so be it!


Do you think this crackdown will expose (more) of the flaws and problems of the current immigration laws.

Probably, but we must start somewhere.


Will Congress actually respond to this in a way that Pres. Bush wants (to a lesser or greater degree)?

The names of those Congressmen and Senators who do not support this crackdown need to be publicized as well! Politicians talk out of both sides of their mouth 24/7, so let's make them be accountable. This is a measure which really may contribute to halting illegal immigration, so let's see how they vote!

How will this affect the employers? The (illegal) immigrants? Us? Nation as a whole?

As I mentioned above, we must be ready to pay the higher prices. We have no other choice but to support this measure IF we truly want to gain border security.
Anyone who breaks the law should be accountable for their actions, and this includes our own citizen employers!


What will be the outcome of this crackdown?

Instead of television talking heads discussing this issue night and day, we might really have a workable solution here. Why not make our own citizens obey our laws? Forget the fence, this may really be successful if enforced fairly.

Maybe it's just crazy old man turnea...but I didn't actually notice any automatic penalties for employers.

Firings for employees but...

Is this the correct thing to do?
I can't think of a single person this will help, no.

What will be the outcome of this crackdown?
Absolutely nothing.

To expound on that I mean in terms of the pace of illegal immigration. It will make life harder for immigrant both legal and illegal, who are already here.

actually- just delivering the onus of proof to the employer, say- in the mismatched Soc Sec card the article has shown, if the employee can't reconcile these numbers, they are fired, if not fired, then there are already penalties in place for the employers.

I, of course, think it goes nowhere near far enough. I believe a 1 year sentence per foriegn invader employed would be a good start.

But, Turnea- it is already working. We jusrt need to snatch a couple farms from farmers that exploit the workers, and word will get out that hiring foriegn invaders is not economically feasible.

...so in practical terms it mean a bunch of laborers get fired while their employers just find somebody else.

I bet the bosses are real upset about having to fire their poor employees, but it's not what I call a penalty.

yes, jail terms for employers would be much better- but there are fines, and they are forced to hire documented employees vs foriegn invaders. If no foreign invaders can find jobs- that takes away the economic reasons for the behavior.

I would be willing to bet the real reason for an employer to be upset is being forced to actually document, pay taxes, follow labor laws, and stop the illegal exploitations.

In terms of the illegal immigrants...isn't that the point? Life here as an illegal immigrant should be extremely hard, impossible even. Then they'd stop coming here illegally. I remain completely baffled by the resistance to this concept. We keep making it easy for illegal immigrants to exist in our society, and then wonder why they're here. It completely disregards any and all common sense. Ask any parent what the result of rewarding bad behaviour is? Continued bad behaviour.

For legal immigrants, this shouldn't be a problem, as they'll have valid paperwork. Will a few get caught up in some paperwork issues? Probably. That's happened to me before, so it's hardly discriminatory--just one of the side effects of bureacracy.

My answer was more in the "was this the right thing to do?" vein.

As I've said before, there is a distinct difference between illegal behavior and bad behavior.

Considering the position these workers are in I suspect it would be irresponsible to do anything other that cross illegally. From their perspective it's perfectly moral.

Not necessarily. I agree w/ what you're saying, in that many illegal immigrants come to the US simply to make a better life.

But what about the illegal immigrants that come here and don't get documented in order to forego taxes? yes- it happens

Cash work is far more profitable, and in many cases decreases the overall cost and liability for contracted work. Construction is the easiest to understand.

I doubt that ALL illegal immigration is done under a moral pretense. In the US, we HAVE to pay taxes or go to jail. Why shouldn't tax-evading illegal immigrants be forced to go to jail?

(*note- not all illegal immigrants get away with not paying taxes. Some use fake socials, etc. I think those people possibly could have different motives*)

The majority of illegal immigrants do pay taxes or at least the taxes people at their income level are expected to pay, chiefly Social Security where they pay billions into a system they get nothing out of.

Barring illegal immigration isn't something I'm dead set against, but only after our legal immigration standards are changed to allow enough workers from Mexico and Central America to have a good legal chance at getting entry. Turning away only those with criminal backgrounds and the like.

I am not against revising the numbers upward for legal immigration at all, and by quite a high number- that is why I am all for taking to task those that employ the ILLEGAL invaders- they exploit the soft underbelly of our country as well. To me, they are traitors for that reason alone, and is why I think that long jail terms and loss of all property is so appropriate- they are the lynchpin of the entire problem- take away employment- the only invaders to our soil ARE bad folks, and should be treated as such.

We may not be able to make our borders airtight- that is a scientific impossibility, but we can certainly make it 99.999% that way, and one obvious manner is to make the price too high for anyone to pay- the threat of losing thier life, and mking it a reality.

My answer to that would be that if we're ever going to solve the problem, we have to start somewhere. There simply isn't any painless way to fix this. Almost all of the people here illegally are aware of that fact. Therefore, their simply being here is bad behaviour. Not immoral, but bad behaviour nonetheless. If I were to go into another country illegally, and knowingly, wouldn't that be bad behaviour on my part? Of course it would. In order for any immigration policy to work, there needs to be a way to control the flow of immigrants. We can't do that as long as we offer them incentives to come here illegally. Jobs, education, etc. are all incentives to break our laws and come here. To enforce our policies, we need to make sure the incentive for breaking them isn't greater than the cost of following the laws. Currently, it is not. In fact, there's very little reason to do so--we provide jobs, education, etc. etc. None of this has anything to do with making a moral judgement against them...it is simply necessary for our immigration policy to work. If our policy needs to change, that is a separate discussion. Any policy requires enforcement to be effective, though.

It depends on the reason.

It is illegal to speed too but an officer has discretion to respect an emergency situation ("she's having a baby"... etc.)

It was illegal to shelter Jews in Nazi Germany. Illegal to learn to read for blacks during slavery.

A policy is only worth enforcing if it is good policy to begin with.

Yes, history is repleat with unjust laws- and some very just- such as laws regarding murder and kidnapping and rape. protecting your borders from foriegn invaders falls into that category.

Not really.

It isn't a strict moral issue, in fact it wasn't even policy until after the Civil War during The Yellow Scare.

I'm not arguing it's not debatable, there are cases where illegal immigration can be dangerous, but by and large it's not.

Yes, and, by and large, most muslims are not extremists- but darned if we don't have a lot of muslim wars going on right now, and by and large, most Americans aren't racist, but darned if we don't have some serious problems with it anyway.

That doesn't mean that this shouldn't be stopped either.

By and large, illegal immigration is a problem for several reasons-

1) total lack of tracking and border control we have now makes us very weak defensively, and, due to the idiotic policies of GW, we are now the entire worlds most hated country- quite a feat BTW- but, by and large, the world has a very negative feeling towards the US, and there are now large groups of radicalized factions that want to kill us. So we need to protect our borders, as best as we can, with any tool we have at hand.

2) Exploitation of poor workers for greedy US corporations. Every worker should be documented, and labor laws upheld, for the good of all Americans.

3) Overwhelming the border states ability to provide services.

What Islam and the human race?

Extremism and racism are problems, occasionally enough to be targeted by policy.

It doesn't mean we throw the baby out with the bathwater.


Meh... no terrorists have ever been known to come here illegally in any case, this is a possibility but not a strong one.

Not that curbing employment of illegals does squat to confront that.



Part of the genius of amnesty as I see it and not a state in the Union can claim to be "overwhelmed" by illegal immigrants, who pay far more in taxes than they receive in services.

The children are another matter, but then unless we instate a one-child policy like China we have no right to whine.

Is this the correct thing to do?
Yes and, by the way, the “non partisan think tank” is an advocacy group for illegal immegrants

Do you think this crackdown will expose (more) of the flaws and problems of the current immigration laws.
The only “flaw” in the laws is the enforcement.

Will Congress actually respond to this in a way that Pres. Bush wants (to a lesser or greater degree)?

Only time will tell.

How will this affect the employers? The (illegial) immigrants? Us? Nation as a whole?

Employers will now have to hire legal immigrants or citizens and pay decent wages. This should have been done years ago. This will lower the unemployment rate for minorities. It may slightly raise the price for produce. The nation will benefit as unemployment drops.

What will be the outcome of this crackdown?

If enforced it will reduce illegal immigration. IMO the fine is too low. Should be $10,000 per person.