Rove is apparently retiring from DC for awhile. He made the rounds of the talk shows and comments have been made from all sides. To the Right he has been considered a savior and the "Mind" behind Bush, to the Left he is demonspawn.
As we head into the twilight of Bush's presidency we can have a good clear look at the end result of Rove's work.

Listen to any talk radio or read any forum on the left side of the equation and Rove is vilified and given the ability to single-handedly steal elections, the right also feeds this image with praise for his masterful behind the scenes string-pulling.

Consider this: Bush's 1st election was by a bare minimum--so close a court stepped in to decide the final answer. His second win was not exactly the decisive mandate he claimed and we now have the Republicans out of power and seemingly still in disarray.

Does he deserve the credit he is given as a mastermind of Machiavellian proportions or has he in effect simply been overrated?

Mastermind, YES? Why?
NO he is Overrated? Why?

I would much rather hit cleanup than leadoff, but here goes.

NO he is Overrated? Why?

I think Rove is overrated.

It is unfortunate that there are those who are terrified by his mystique.

His goal was a permanent Republican majority. The Republican bubble burst in the last election. Any "genius" should know that nothing American in politics is permanent.

Mastermind, YES? Why?
NO he is Overrated? Why?

You must give credit where credit is due- he is a mastermind at no-issue politics- lying and getting away with it, push polls (against McCain in SC) , shell "Pacs" that are really run by him (swift water liars club) - and then, exploiting the system and friends in the Judicial system to appoint thier president.

It was a one-dimensional mastermind, similar to the cult of personality rises to power of demagogues and tyrants of the past- he knew how to "fix" the system to get his guy to power- but really had no idea what to do once he got there-

which is why he is HIGHLY over rated- in fact, a miserable failure-

lets see-

he had both houses of the legislative branch circa 1994- a "packed" court, and carte' blanche' to do whatever he wanted- and he "screwed the pooch" - big time- a complete and miserable failure that we should point and laugh all the time.

Why have the Left been so very afraid of this man? He has almost been blamed for "Sending" Katrina? He has always been put forward as the reason "we really won it all, but then rove appeared...." or "We should win BUT with Rove behind the scenes, you never know....October Surprise...Yada Yada yada..."

Elections have been razor thin in most cases.
WHY/HOW has he attained such credibility?
Sure he killed off McCain, but Rove took advantage of rumors in a part of the country where certain prejudices remain strong. Seems more like common sense in Dirty Politik than magnificent insight.

Has it been just a way for many on the Left to evade that they might lose because some people disagree with them? They often seem to fall back on "Americans have been fooled by the Right, or tricked or Americans just don't really know this or that?" rove has seemed to be a convenient way to put the blame for losing somewhere else?

Why has he never before been attacked as a sham or at least serious efforts been put forth to try and "expose" the supposed genius as a fake or overrated. A little Ozian fatman behind a curtain.
Although I hear this now on the radio it seems more like talking back after the Bully is out of earshot afraid it might return.

Rove is overrated.

I say this because the Republican machine has more cogs in it than one guy, as evidenced by the politics that controlled Colorado for so many years. Those who didn't like it tended to point to Rove as the crooked politician's hero, but in reality he was just one of many. Colorado produced some real doozies.

I'll also go by the principle of idea-stealing. In his early career he might have had a few good ideas on how to yank elections, but if this goes like other organizations, somewhere in mid-career he had to start stealing ideas from subordinates. Happens everywhere.

Then some clever subordinate fed him bad ideas, like: "You know what, we could fire a bunch of fed judges. Yeah man, like who's gonna notice?"

Or: "Just out that dame. No big deal."

Then I'll go by the Peter Principle that seems to run rampant everywhere too. Rove was just one monkey in the tree.

Well, here's my theory. Who do you hear the most talking about Rove and his 'incredible' influence; his being 'Bush's brain', etc. ? Democratic Congressmen. The fact [as I see it] is that Congressional Democrats have been using Rove as a tool to mask their own political ineptitude. It makes sense, if you are inept at something and don't want others to know, focus attention on someone who's just so damn good at it. It isn't us, Darth Rove is just a genius. The man is overrated, there are very few concrete things that I can see that he's accomplished. His leaving will make no substantial difference in this Administration [which may be a bad thing].

CP

What am I missing here? If Rove is such a genius and the man behind George Bush, why on earth has this administration done such a poor job!! Bush's numbers are in the toliet, and I can't imagine how much further down they can go now that Rove officially has resigned. The Republicans "had it made" at the beginning of Bush's term in office. If Rove is the genius everybody seems to think he is, how did Bush's approval rating arrive at this point? The unraveling began almost immediately following 9/11, and Rove was right there with Bush! Rove's such a genius? How much of an impact for the good could he have made? You can't prove that by Bush's approval rating!

"Currently, 32% of Americans approve of the job Bush is doing as president, a far cry from the record-high 90% he received in September 2001. Bush's current job approval rating is just three percentage points above his lowest."
http://blogs.usatoday.com/onpolitics/2007/08/gallup-approval.html

Does he deserve the credit he is given as a mastermind of Machiavellian proportions or has he in effect simply been overrated?


I've been waiting for a thread about this ever since Rove announced his resignation. And, I haven't been disappointed by the responses we've seen here from the left. Good job people! Most entertaining.

Karl Rove is a very astute political strategist, period. He knows how to win elections and contrary to the whacked out conspiracy theories from the left that we see all over the Internet, including this forum, he doesn't have to "cheat" to do it. He knows all he has to do is craft a conservative message and stick with it. And, it's worked, time and time again and that's what drives the left crazy. They don't realize that it is they who are truly out of the mainstream so they think when conservatives win, the conservatives must have cheated. So, the left stomps it's feet and throws a temper tantrum. They come up with some nasty names for conservatives, then demonize the right for practicing the "politics of personal destruction", and most of all, they blame Rove for it. Anyone who reads through some of the political threads in this forum can see that at work.

In any case, I wouldn't call Karl Rove either a mastermind nor overrated. If anything, he's over-hyped and demonized by the left wing. He's just simply a very good political advisor who has been successful at defeating the scourge of modern liberalism...... Need to coin a new name for that.... Wacklibs? Yeah, that's the ticket. So, Karl Rove is responsible for defeating the wacklibs for the past decade or so and for that, he deserves the thanks of the nation. I wish him the best of luck.


Aquilla

I can chalk most of what you say up to a simple difference in opinion, Aquilla, until this:

First, let's put aside the fact that there are very, very few liberals in Congress, to say nothing of 'wacklibs'. Second, the 'thanks of the nation'. What exactly has Karl Rove done for the nation? Even if he is responsible for the political success of this Administration and, until recently, the Republican Party, how in the name of all things sacred does that qualify as helping the 'nation'? Rove helped one of the worst Presidents in modern history win two elections...at best. Thanks? Why would the 'nation' want to thank Karl Rove when his only claim to fame is helping elect and re-elect a President who 2/3rds of the country thinks has been a negative force in this country?

CP

Well Aquilla- if anything, Karl Rove has actually made the "whacklibs" (whatever that is, since no liberal has any kind of power since 1980, if anything he destroyed the paleo-cons, which is very sad) much stronger.

Taking a 90% positive rating on 9/11 and dumping it to where he did, not to mention pretty single handedly gave back the senate and house to dems.

I guess giving back control was his plan all along?

My candidate for the next Best Of

Mighty strange world Aquilla when Bush=Conservative. Sure He has the Gay Baiting down pat, but in most other cases he seems pretty much like he would be more at home as a Democrat, Have you noticed the way the Fed has mushroomed in size while he was there?
My favorite line these days is we could power America from the energy generated from Reagan spinning in his grave.

What happened to Rove's "astute political strategy" the last go around? the GOP had theirs handed to them. Bush barely beat Gore the first time--Needed the court to throw it his way, and the re-election was more due to --IMO-- the bad rep the Dems have in national security and even their rep towards our military than any actual approval of Bush or conservatism.
Overrated!

Keep 'em coming folks. Y'all are here all week right? Let's see here, we have very, very few liberals in Congress, no real conservatives and most everyone here considers themselves as a "moderate" or "independent". That must mean y'all are really happy with Congress right? That would put you well out of the mainstream of America if we are to go with current polls which place Congress' approval rating below that of meter maids and the traffic officer writing you a speeding ticket.

Oh well, be that as it may Karl Rove's job was to help elect George W. Bush Governor of Texas, which he did, and President of the United States, which he did twice. Now when anyone here can match that record, come on back and tell us all about it and how you did it. I know how Rove did it and he did it by staying true to the message. And yeah, America should thank him for that because without his help. we might have ended up with a complete idiot like Algore or a total phony like Kerry in the Oval Office and that would have been a disaster. I'm sure some here don't agree, but oh well. Rove isn't the best the GOP has ever had, that honor goes to the late Michael Deaver and crew, but he's pretty darn good at what he does. And, he has the record to prove it. It's not surprising the whacklibs hate him.

I'm not sure what he's going to do next, but to the whacklibs out there I can only offer some friendly advice.

Be afraid... Be very, very afraid.......... Muhahaha!!!!


Aquilla

Mastermind? Nah...more like "Evil Genius."

Karl Rove took the playbook of the late Lee Atwater and ran with it. Rove learned that wedge politics work---for a while at least--and that given a choice between showing a little spine and whimpering like a whipped puppy most Democrats would rather run to their corner. Rove took a failed son of a lackluster President, wiped away the booze, coke and broads and turned the third or fourth (which one is it exactly?) most powerful position in Texas government into a two-term Chief Executive.

You don't have to like how Rove did it. You just can't deny THAT if not for him George W. Bush would probably still be running businesses into the ground hoping Daddy Dearest would bail him out of yet another snafu.

Rove isn't the most brilliant political strategist ever. He's just better at it than anybody else. He's smart, tougher than a two-dollar steak and can read a map of the United States and know right down to which county in what state the money and ground troops need to be deployed to get the most bang for the buck. Where liberals and Democrats thought massive turnout in key states such as Ohio would win the day for them, Rove wisely focused on volatile social issues such as gay marriage stirring religious conservatives and evangelicals to come out for Bush.

Rove oversaw not only Bush's ascendancy, but Republican gains in both the Senate and House in 2002 and 2004. He saw the weaknesses of both Al Gore and John Kerry and beat both of them. If there was a Democratic counterpart to Rove, we might be talking about President Gore or President Kerry. But there isn't, so we're not.

But Rove had dreams of putting together a permanent Republican majority that would go on long after Bush had left the scene. However, where exploiting the fear of Americans that weak on terrorism Democrats would leave the country vulnerable to attack was a tactic that worked brilliantly in 2002 and 2004, it fell flat on its face in 2006 as Republicans got slaughtered in the Congressional elections. Bush saw his poll ratings plummet as the war in Iraq dragged on without resolution and despite running away from him, Bush's negatives doomed Republicans as voters threw them out and put the Democrats back in charge for the remainder of Bush's presidency.

Rove took it as a given that Bush could never convert the broad mass of voters skeptical of him, and he increasingly portrayed the intense opposition the president provoked as a badge of honor -- proof that Bush was making tough decisions.

For a time, this strategy produced reliable dividends. During Bush's first term, congressional Republicans voted together at rates not seen in a century, allowing the White House to smoothly pass its agenda despite narrow GOP majorities in both chambers. Bush's steadfast support from the Republican base, combined with the breakthrough voter-contact tactics Rove helped design, produced a massive GOP turnout that not only powered the president's reelection but carried his party to congressional gains in 2002 and 2004.

But Bush's second term has relentlessly revealed the limits of Rove's approach. Bush's margin of victory in 2004, measured as a share of the popular vote, was the smallest ever for a reelected president. And because nearly half the country opposed him even at his high point, Bush's approval rating plummeted to dangerous depths when events turned against him, as they did through 2005 in Iraq and at home, with Hurricane Katrina and the public rejection of his Social Security restructuring plan.

The collapse of Bush's public standing diminished his ability to move his ideas through Congress even while Republicans still held the majority. His refusal to include even sympathetic Democrats in decision-making on Iraq left him dangerously alone as conditions there deteriorated. The downward spiral culminated in last year's election in which Republicans lost the House and Senate, mostly because independents -- the swing voters Rove believed were largely extinct -- broke overwhelmingly against the GOP. "He had a very self-conscious strategy of polarizing the country," said Stanley Greenberg, the Democratic operative who most matches Rove's sweep of vision, "and it polarized the country against them."

Rove aspired not only to shape a single presidency but to design an enduring Republican majority. It's too early to know whether last year's Republican losses rendered a final verdict on that project, but the GOP now holds fewer House and Senate seats and governorships than before Bush took office, and Democrats have widened their lead in partisan identification among voters. Independents remain disillusioned with Bush, threatening the GOP in 2008. link

Rove isn't overrated. He overreached. Like many men of power and acclaim, his ego lead to hubris and hubris led to humiliation.

And it couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.



I'm not sure what a "whacklib" is. Maybe the opposite of a "Bushbot" or something. Whatever...

Some political scientists might argue that a ideologically divided U.S. Supreme Court made George W. Bush the POTUS and not so much anything Karl Rove did. Additionally, since the majority of Americans voted for that "complete idiot" Al Gore instead of the jock sniffer, male cheerleader chickenhawk, I don't know how much they're going to be willing to chip in for a "Thank You" card for the "Rhymes-With-Nerd" Blossom.

What will the Evil Boy Genius do next? Maybe he'll take up a hobby of torturing small animals or prank call the Hillary Clinton campaign headquarters by ordering 20 extra large pizzas and having them delivered. Who knows what kind of devilment ol' Karl will get into next?

Come to think of it Karl Rove and this guy share more than a few scary similarities.

Maybe your boy Fred Thompson will give him a call and ask him if he's interested in running his campaign? That is, if his "trophy wife"* will let him.


* That's the New York Times' description, not mine. I report. You decide.

Mastermind, YES? Why?
NO he is Overrated? Why?

The only answer I can give to these questions is Yes and No.

Yes, he does appear to be highly skilled at his job (winning elections.) Whether this is a "good" skill (like being a gifted surgeon) or a "bad" skill (like being a gifted thief) depends on your point of view.

No, he is overrated, because his undeniable effectiveness was based on a very short-sighted analysis of the American electorate. The unholy three-way marriage among the Religious Right, the Neoconservatives, and Big Business quickly showed signs of breaking apart. The moneyfolk didn't really care, as long as profits stayed high, but the Faustian deal between social conservatism and international aggressiveness was doomed to failure.

So, he was skilled at doing something which should not have been done, and which was only going to last for a very limited time.

(respectfully submitted by a whacklib)

I'm almost certain that some of us also have "Libertarian" under our party affiliations, which would those of us that do are probably snugly in the company of the rest of the country who sees the Congress and the Administration for what they are. This was an interesting nonsequitur, Aquilla, but a nonsequitur no less.

Part of what I think is missing from my life has been my failure to complete my inescapable goal of helping elect someone whom everyone else despises to public office. It's a wonder how I sleep at night.

Egads! Can you imagine the state of this country if a complete idiot was President? Or a phony? My God, I bet like only 30% of Americans would approve of the job that idiot and/or phoney was doing. The idiot/phoney's Party would probably suffer embarassing and sweeping defeats in Congressional races. The country would probably be bitterly divided if an idiot and/or phoney were President. Thank God that's not the case. That would suck.



America has already responded, Aquilla, and just so you know, you may need to redefine your new word. It seems as though 'whacklibs' includes everyone...Like, EVERYONE. Because according to this poll, Karl is just as popular as the President.




It's a shame too, I think 'whacklibs' was starting to catch on.

CP