Full Version: Are you sorry?
This guy is overwhelmed with shame and remorse for American evils. Commenters can't sleep after being reminded by this sirring post:
Questions:
Do you agree with Joseph A. Palermo that American's should be ashamed of our past and present "evils"?
Is there anything you're particularly ashamed of that America has done/is doing?
If you're not ashamed do you take issue with Joseph A. Palermo's apology?
Do you think that America "on the balance" has done more good than bad?[/b]
QUOTE
I am so sorry, as an American, and as an American citizen -- I am so sorry, to the people of Iraq, that my government has attacked and victimized you in such a barbaric, illegal, and illegitimate way -- based on lies and deceit.
Questions:
Do you agree with Joseph A. Palermo that American's should be ashamed of our past and present "evils"?
Is there anything you're particularly ashamed of that America has done/is doing?
If you're not ashamed do you take issue with Joseph A. Palermo's apology?
Do you think that America "on the balance" has done more good than bad?[/b]
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REOPENED. BA has revised the debate questions. Thanks.
TOPICS:
Do you agree with Joseph A. Palermo that American's should be ashamed of our past and present "evils"?
Is there anything you're particularly ashamed of that America has done/is doing?
If you're not ashamed do you take issue with Joseph A. Palermo's apology?
Do you think that America "on the balance" has done more good than bad?
TOPICS:
Do you agree with Joseph A. Palermo that American's should be ashamed of our past and present "evils"?
Is there anything you're particularly ashamed of that America has done/is doing?
If you're not ashamed do you take issue with Joseph A. Palermo's apology?
Do you think that America "on the balance" has done more good than bad?
TOPICS:
Do you agree with Joseph A. Palermo that American's should be ashamed of our past and present "evils"?
Absolutely. A citizen of EVERY country should be ashamed of everything that his country has done wrong. How can you not? Knowing what evils your ancestors have done and being ashamed about it is vitally important. I would say that modern Germany is one of the least anti-semitic countries in modern Western Europe now. Being ashamed of its past plays a big role in it.
This applies to the past. As for the present... we bear collective guilt for the actions of our officials, so yes, I am ashamed for the actions of this administration, even though I did not vote for them (see my signature).
Is there anything you're particularly ashamed of that America has done/is doing?
Let's not go far. We threw country of Iraq back 50 years or so in terms of development. Their cultural elite is in exile, education system is in shambles, tens of thousands of people are dead. And for what? As Hans Christian Andersen has said, "the King is naked!" Alan Greenspan, the person who doesn't throw words around and who is a Republican, said this:
QUOTE
Greenspan, in his new book, "The Age of Turbulence: Adventures in a New World," echoed long-held complaints of many critics that a key motivating force in the war is to maintain U.S. access to the rich oil supplies in Iraq.
"Whatever their publicized angst over Saddam Hussein's 'weapons of mass destruction,' American and British authorities were also concerned about violence in an area that harbors a resource indispensable for the functioning of the world economy," Greenspan wrote.
"I'm saddened that it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows: The Iraq war is largely about oil," added Greenspan, who for decades had been one of the most respected U.S. voices on fiscal policies.
"Whatever their publicized angst over Saddam Hussein's 'weapons of mass destruction,' American and British authorities were also concerned about violence in an area that harbors a resource indispensable for the functioning of the world economy," Greenspan wrote.
"I'm saddened that it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows: The Iraq war is largely about oil," added Greenspan, who for decades had been one of the most respected U.S. voices on fiscal policies.
If you're not ashamed do you take issue with Joseph A. Palermo's apology?
I am ashamed, so - no issues.
Do you think that America "on the balance" has done more good than bad?
Yes. Doesn't stop me from being ashamed for the bad things we have done though.
Do you agree with Joseph A. Palermo that American's should be ashamed of our past and present "evils"?
Is there anything you're particularly ashamed of that America has done/is doing?
If you're not ashamed do you take issue with Joseph A. Palermo's apology?
Do you think that America "on the balance" has done more good than bad?
I suppose as a self-proclaimed liberal that I should feel ashamed over many of the wrongs that the United States has done in its past. Except all the blood got bled over Vietnam right up until my brother came home and he tore into my girlfriend for being a slut and for me being, well, let's not get into that. It was ugly.
I suppose I should feel ashamed that my country has become what it is. But no, the feeling is more of disappointment. We get a couple of new generations in there and just like that too many don't understand. Now they do, but it sure took a long time. Ah well, each generation must make its own mistakes.
I suppose I should feel ashamed that my country nearly killed off all the Native Americans and enslaved Africans. Then had one of the most bloody and ruthless wars in modern history to boot. But that's more like history shock when you read about it for any region. Here I am disappointed with human beings of any nation.
Humans are just downright disappointing. I know I've done my share, and of that I am ashamed -- as in sorry and I try not to repeat my mistakes. I hope that those responsible for Iraq will try to do the same, but you know what? I'm ready to be disappointed again. Some people are incapable of learning.
On the balance between good and bad, I don't know. I don't have the perspective of a god. All I know about history is what I read in history; all I know about current events is what I read about current events, except that little sliver that I personally experience. More good happens than bad in that little sliver, so the balance leans heavily that way. Bad still happens. Maybe I'm just accustomed to it after more than half a century on this planet, in this country.
I think shame is a wasted emotion if one wallows in it. It's better to forgive yourself and do something positive and constructive. Or just take a walk and let the ego deflate.
Is there anything you're particularly ashamed of that America has done/is doing?
If you're not ashamed do you take issue with Joseph A. Palermo's apology?
Do you think that America "on the balance" has done more good than bad?
I suppose as a self-proclaimed liberal that I should feel ashamed over many of the wrongs that the United States has done in its past. Except all the blood got bled over Vietnam right up until my brother came home and he tore into my girlfriend for being a slut and for me being, well, let's not get into that. It was ugly.
I suppose I should feel ashamed that my country has become what it is. But no, the feeling is more of disappointment. We get a couple of new generations in there and just like that too many don't understand. Now they do, but it sure took a long time. Ah well, each generation must make its own mistakes.
I suppose I should feel ashamed that my country nearly killed off all the Native Americans and enslaved Africans. Then had one of the most bloody and ruthless wars in modern history to boot. But that's more like history shock when you read about it for any region. Here I am disappointed with human beings of any nation.
Humans are just downright disappointing. I know I've done my share, and of that I am ashamed -- as in sorry and I try not to repeat my mistakes. I hope that those responsible for Iraq will try to do the same, but you know what? I'm ready to be disappointed again. Some people are incapable of learning.
On the balance between good and bad, I don't know. I don't have the perspective of a god. All I know about history is what I read in history; all I know about current events is what I read about current events, except that little sliver that I personally experience. More good happens than bad in that little sliver, so the balance leans heavily that way. Bad still happens. Maybe I'm just accustomed to it after more than half a century on this planet, in this country.
I think shame is a wasted emotion if one wallows in it. It's better to forgive yourself and do something positive and constructive. Or just take a walk and let the ego deflate.
Do you agree with Joseph A. Palermo that American's should be ashamed of our past and present "evils"?
Absolutely- shame is a much stronger force for positive change than laws or mouthings of remorse. For instance- we have a very high rate of teenage pregnancy- we did not used to have this problem- what has changed? There is no shame in it- social norms can be the strongest modifier of individual behavior- for instance- it is well known that the most common phobia is fear of public speaking- why is that? Because one is ashamed of "looking stupid or ignorant" in front of a large group of individuals.
It is very hard to find a time post-Korea in our foriegn policy where we have not done great evil, great harm, and even been mildly "the good guy". We should be ashamed.
If we are, it would modify our behavior, and we would be be a better nation for it!
Is there anything you're particularly ashamed of that America has done/is doing?
Our foriegn policy is as evil as any country in world history- we have destroyed lives, families and economies over petty politics, and we shoudl be ashamed.
Do you think that America "on the balance" has done more good than bad?
Post WW2, without any real room for debate, we have done great evil to the world, given power to horrible despots and war criminals, even given refuge to poeple like the Shah of Iran, who should have died in a jail cell.
On the world stage- it is ignorant to even suggest that we have done more good than evil when it comes to foriegn policy. As for domestic policy- more good than bad, in a pretty postive manner. I believe we have progressed.
Absolutely- shame is a much stronger force for positive change than laws or mouthings of remorse. For instance- we have a very high rate of teenage pregnancy- we did not used to have this problem- what has changed? There is no shame in it- social norms can be the strongest modifier of individual behavior- for instance- it is well known that the most common phobia is fear of public speaking- why is that? Because one is ashamed of "looking stupid or ignorant" in front of a large group of individuals.
It is very hard to find a time post-Korea in our foriegn policy where we have not done great evil, great harm, and even been mildly "the good guy". We should be ashamed.
If we are, it would modify our behavior, and we would be be a better nation for it!
Is there anything you're particularly ashamed of that America has done/is doing?
Our foriegn policy is as evil as any country in world history- we have destroyed lives, families and economies over petty politics, and we shoudl be ashamed.
Do you think that America "on the balance" has done more good than bad?
Post WW2, without any real room for debate, we have done great evil to the world, given power to horrible despots and war criminals, even given refuge to poeple like the Shah of Iran, who should have died in a jail cell.
On the world stage- it is ignorant to even suggest that we have done more good than evil when it comes to foriegn policy. As for domestic policy- more good than bad, in a pretty postive manner. I believe we have progressed.
Do you agree with Joseph A. Palermo that American's should be ashamed of our past and present "evils"?
Not necessarily. I guess I can understand a population harboring a collective guilt over a recent event, such as Germans and the holocaust. But as Joseph Palermo is writing as an American, as an individual……I will respond as an individual. I do not harbor a feeling of shame for being an American, or for what sins other Americans may have committed. I do not labor under the proverbial sins of the father. I do not go through life feel a sense of guilt for events that I did not perpetrate or simply abet by being a tax paying citizen.
To do so by virtue of being a citizen of a nation, then the next logical step is to feel a sense of shame from the status as a human being.
In the same vein I don’t feel an enormous amount of pride that I am an American. I’m certainly happy beyond all doubt that I’m an American, but that was the luck of birth, not anything I strove for. Both excessive pride or excessive guilt for being a native born citizen of a country, and feeling implicated in its past acts, good or bad, seems rather silly to me.
Is there anything you're particularly ashamed of that America has done/is doing?
I believe that the United States has committed a number of acts that are reprehensible, our entire history concerning native Americans is but one. Should I feel compelled to be ashamed when most of my ancestors were either native Americans themselves, or fur trappers in Canada during those years? Should I be ashamed of events committed by my country during my lifetime? For what purpose? It is right and honorable to acknowledge heinous acts and poor judgment, and to make amends when necessary and feasible. It is right and honorable to not whitewash history, but to be open about the deeds done by the nation. But feel ashamed? I suppose if it makes some people feel better about themselves to feel guilty for acts that they have no part in or connection to, I won’t disparage them. But don’t consider it my civic duty to feel a certain way.
If you're not ashamed do you take issue with Joseph A. Palermo's apology?
He is welcome to feel however he wishes to. As long as he doesn’t view his shame with a religious like fervor and expect that everyone else should act likewise, I have no issues with his ‘apology’.
Do you think that America "on the balance" has done more good than bad?
Absolutely.
Not necessarily. I guess I can understand a population harboring a collective guilt over a recent event, such as Germans and the holocaust. But as Joseph Palermo is writing as an American, as an individual……I will respond as an individual. I do not harbor a feeling of shame for being an American, or for what sins other Americans may have committed. I do not labor under the proverbial sins of the father. I do not go through life feel a sense of guilt for events that I did not perpetrate or simply abet by being a tax paying citizen.
To do so by virtue of being a citizen of a nation, then the next logical step is to feel a sense of shame from the status as a human being.
In the same vein I don’t feel an enormous amount of pride that I am an American. I’m certainly happy beyond all doubt that I’m an American, but that was the luck of birth, not anything I strove for. Both excessive pride or excessive guilt for being a native born citizen of a country, and feeling implicated in its past acts, good or bad, seems rather silly to me.
Is there anything you're particularly ashamed of that America has done/is doing?
I believe that the United States has committed a number of acts that are reprehensible, our entire history concerning native Americans is but one. Should I feel compelled to be ashamed when most of my ancestors were either native Americans themselves, or fur trappers in Canada during those years? Should I be ashamed of events committed by my country during my lifetime? For what purpose? It is right and honorable to acknowledge heinous acts and poor judgment, and to make amends when necessary and feasible. It is right and honorable to not whitewash history, but to be open about the deeds done by the nation. But feel ashamed? I suppose if it makes some people feel better about themselves to feel guilty for acts that they have no part in or connection to, I won’t disparage them. But don’t consider it my civic duty to feel a certain way.
If you're not ashamed do you take issue with Joseph A. Palermo's apology?
He is welcome to feel however he wishes to. As long as he doesn’t view his shame with a religious like fervor and expect that everyone else should act likewise, I have no issues with his ‘apology’.
Do you think that America "on the balance" has done more good than bad?
Absolutely.
QUOTE(Dontreadonme @ Sep 16 2007, 03:30 PM) 
Do you agree with Joseph A. Palermo that American's should be ashamed of our past and present "evils"?
Not necessarily. I guess I can understand a population harboring a collective guilt over a recent event, such as Germans and the holocaust. But as Joseph Palermo is writing as an American, as an individual……I will respond as an individual. I do not harbor a feeling of shame for being an American, or for what sins other Americans may have committed. I do not labor under the proverbial sins of the father. I do not go through life feel a sense of guilt for events that I did not perpetrate or simply abet by being a tax paying citizen.
To do so by virtue of being a citizen of a nation, then the next logical step is to feel a sense of shame from the status as a human being.
In the same vein I don’t feel an enormous amount of pride that I am an American. I’m certainly happy beyond all doubt that I’m an American, but that was the luck of birth, not anything I strove for. Both excessive pride or excessive guilt for being a native born citizen of a country, and feeling implicated in its past acts, good or bad, seems rather silly to me.
Is there anything you're particularly ashamed of that America has done/is doing?
I believe that the United States has committed a number of acts that are reprehensible, our entire history concerning native Americans is but one. Should I feel compelled to be ashamed when most of my ancestors were either native Americans themselves, or fur trappers in Canada during those years? Should I be ashamed of events committed by my country during my lifetime? For what purpose? It is right and honorable to acknowledge heinous acts and poor judgment, and to make amends when necessary and feasible. It is right and honorable to not whitewash history, but to be open about the deeds done by the nation. But feel ashamed? I suppose if it makes some people feel better about themselves to feel guilty for acts that they have no part in or connection to, I won’t disparage them. But don’t consider it my civic duty to feel a certain way.
If you're not ashamed do you take issue with Joseph A. Palermo's apology?
He is welcome to feel however he wishes to. As long as he doesn’t view his shame with a religious like fervor and expect that everyone else should act likewise, I have no issues with his ‘apology’.
Do you think that America "on the balance" has done more good than bad?
Absolutely.
Not necessarily. I guess I can understand a population harboring a collective guilt over a recent event, such as Germans and the holocaust. But as Joseph Palermo is writing as an American, as an individual……I will respond as an individual. I do not harbor a feeling of shame for being an American, or for what sins other Americans may have committed. I do not labor under the proverbial sins of the father. I do not go through life feel a sense of guilt for events that I did not perpetrate or simply abet by being a tax paying citizen.
To do so by virtue of being a citizen of a nation, then the next logical step is to feel a sense of shame from the status as a human being.
In the same vein I don’t feel an enormous amount of pride that I am an American. I’m certainly happy beyond all doubt that I’m an American, but that was the luck of birth, not anything I strove for. Both excessive pride or excessive guilt for being a native born citizen of a country, and feeling implicated in its past acts, good or bad, seems rather silly to me.
Is there anything you're particularly ashamed of that America has done/is doing?
I believe that the United States has committed a number of acts that are reprehensible, our entire history concerning native Americans is but one. Should I feel compelled to be ashamed when most of my ancestors were either native Americans themselves, or fur trappers in Canada during those years? Should I be ashamed of events committed by my country during my lifetime? For what purpose? It is right and honorable to acknowledge heinous acts and poor judgment, and to make amends when necessary and feasible. It is right and honorable to not whitewash history, but to be open about the deeds done by the nation. But feel ashamed? I suppose if it makes some people feel better about themselves to feel guilty for acts that they have no part in or connection to, I won’t disparage them. But don’t consider it my civic duty to feel a certain way.
If you're not ashamed do you take issue with Joseph A. Palermo's apology?
He is welcome to feel however he wishes to. As long as he doesn’t view his shame with a religious like fervor and expect that everyone else should act likewise, I have no issues with his ‘apology’.
Do you think that America "on the balance" has done more good than bad?
Absolutely.
could you please expand on the last question?
Do you agree with Joseph A. Palermo that American's should be ashamed of our past and present "evils"?
Of course. Now I may not be ashamed for my country for all of the same reasons. In short, since John Winthrop told the passengers on the Arbella that they were here to be a city upon a hill, the United States has placed itself as some type of example for the world to look to. Given this, we should especially remeber the mistakes Americans have allowed the government of the United States to commit.
This country has gained tremendous power (hey Spiderman reference, where have you been?) and with tremendous power comes tremendous responsibility.
Is there anything you're particularly ashamed of that America has done/is doing?
For the short term, we have failed to rise to the challenges of the 21st century, from successfully meeting our security needs, to weakening our position in foreign policy around the world, to properly securing the welfare of Americans with shoring up Social Security, dealing with the crisis of rising medical costs in an effective manner, better taking care of our planet, or simply paying our bills so that our children do not have our burdens to add to their own.
Do you think that America "on the balance" has done more good than bad?
Damn straight. I am proud of my nation on the whole. I expect great things from it, so my disappointment is that much more when I am instead ashamed.
We need another great generation. I don't think it was my parents' generation, and I believe my generation has fallen short of the mark too.
Of course. Now I may not be ashamed for my country for all of the same reasons. In short, since John Winthrop told the passengers on the Arbella that they were here to be a city upon a hill, the United States has placed itself as some type of example for the world to look to. Given this, we should especially remeber the mistakes Americans have allowed the government of the United States to commit.
This country has gained tremendous power (hey Spiderman reference, where have you been?) and with tremendous power comes tremendous responsibility.
Is there anything you're particularly ashamed of that America has done/is doing?
For the short term, we have failed to rise to the challenges of the 21st century, from successfully meeting our security needs, to weakening our position in foreign policy around the world, to properly securing the welfare of Americans with shoring up Social Security, dealing with the crisis of rising medical costs in an effective manner, better taking care of our planet, or simply paying our bills so that our children do not have our burdens to add to their own.
Do you think that America "on the balance" has done more good than bad?
Damn straight. I am proud of my nation on the whole. I expect great things from it, so my disappointment is that much more when I am instead ashamed.
We need another great generation. I don't think it was my parents' generation, and I believe my generation has fallen short of the mark too.
QUOTE
Questions:
Do you agree with Joseph A. Palermo that American's should be ashamed of our past and present "evils"?
Do you agree with Joseph A. Palermo that American's should be ashamed of our past and present "evils"?
No esp. when he said ludicrous crap like this statement:
QUOTE
“but I must say: the invasion, occupation, and seizing of Iraq, to serve the narrow interests of the oil conglomerates and Halliburton, marks the lowest point ever reached in the history of American foreign relations.”
He goes on to say we killed a million Iraqis. Gee I though Saddam who did that. Thus his premise is as bogus as it gets.
QUOTE
Is there anything you're particularly ashamed of that America has done/is doing
?We may not be proud of some of the things we did during the cold war but we did end it and imo without us the world would be a far different place today.
QUOTE
If you're not ashamed do you take issue with Joseph A. Palermo's apology?
It is ludicrous. Maybe he should ask the former Iraqi leaders to apologize for 35 years of tyranny, the million dead, the women and children gassed and the torture chambers. Maybe he should ask world Communism to apologize for the 80 million they killed since 1917.
QUOTE
Do you think that America "on the balance" has done more good than bad?
Yes. We ended the cold war and no doubt saved millions from Soviet tyranny. US capitalism has provided hundreds of billions of $ and millions of jobs to the developing world and out citizens give many billions a year to combat world hunger, vaccinate, feed and clothe millions.
We need be ashamed of nothing.
Do you agree with Joseph A. Palermo that American's should be ashamed of our past and present "evils"?
No I do not agree. Shame is a counter-productive emotion. If anything, learn from the mistakes of the past, but live in the moment.
Is there anything you're particularly ashamed of that America has done/is doing?
I'm ashamed of the way America has bought into the idea that it's evil to stop illegal immigration. I'm ashamed that we cannot be patriotic because the perception of us and our country is one of greed and exploitation. In reality, most Americans are hard-working, decent people who help others when they are able to.
If you're not ashamed do you take issue with Joseph A. Palermo's apology?
He should get off his high horse and go do something to really help the world.
Do you think that America "on the balance" has done more good than bad?
Heck, YES!!!! America has been the driving force behind progress, not only in our country, but globally.
No I do not agree. Shame is a counter-productive emotion. If anything, learn from the mistakes of the past, but live in the moment.
Is there anything you're particularly ashamed of that America has done/is doing?
I'm ashamed of the way America has bought into the idea that it's evil to stop illegal immigration. I'm ashamed that we cannot be patriotic because the perception of us and our country is one of greed and exploitation. In reality, most Americans are hard-working, decent people who help others when they are able to.
If you're not ashamed do you take issue with Joseph A. Palermo's apology?
He should get off his high horse and go do something to really help the world.
Do you think that America "on the balance" has done more good than bad?
Heck, YES!!!! America has been the driving force behind progress, not only in our country, but globally.
Do you agree with Joseph A. Palermo that American's should be ashamed of our past and present "evils"?
Not really. If my standard for national behavior was perfection, then yes, I'd be ashamed. However, since I'm keenly aware that I'm not God, I endeavour to avoid the peculiar hubris of judging others by the standard of perfection.
Is there anything you're particularly ashamed of that America has done/is doing?
Has done: Oklahoma. Bad form and all that.
Is doing: not controlling its own borders. Fostering entitlement mentality. Raising idjits like Palermo.
If you're not ashamed do you take issue with Joseph A. Palermo's apology?
No issue, just the simple observation that the man is an idjit. Let him speak, it'll make it easier for his village to find him.
Do you think that America "on the balance" has done more good than bad?
No doubt at all. During the 20th Century, America defeated fascism, Japanese militariasm, and communism, three "isms" that claimed more than 150 million lives. We have been the engine of prosperity that has lifted more people out of poverty than anything else.
Not really. If my standard for national behavior was perfection, then yes, I'd be ashamed. However, since I'm keenly aware that I'm not God, I endeavour to avoid the peculiar hubris of judging others by the standard of perfection.
Is there anything you're particularly ashamed of that America has done/is doing?
Has done: Oklahoma. Bad form and all that.
Is doing: not controlling its own borders. Fostering entitlement mentality. Raising idjits like Palermo.
If you're not ashamed do you take issue with Joseph A. Palermo's apology?
No issue, just the simple observation that the man is an idjit. Let him speak, it'll make it easier for his village to find him.
Do you think that America "on the balance" has done more good than bad?
No doubt at all. During the 20th Century, America defeated fascism, Japanese militariasm, and communism, three "isms" that claimed more than 150 million lives. We have been the engine of prosperity that has lifted more people out of poverty than anything else.
Sorry... just want to interject with some facts.
Teen pregnancy rates have declined nearly 28% in the last 33 years in the United States, as has the rate of pregnancy among sexually active teens. All this despite the lessening of the "shame" attached to the experience. Whoops... sorry CR.
Back to your regularly scheduled programming...
QUOTE
For instance- we have a very high rate of teenage pregnancy- we did not used to have this problem- what has changed?
Teen pregnancy rates have declined nearly 28% in the last 33 years in the United States, as has the rate of pregnancy among sexually active teens. All this despite the lessening of the "shame" attached to the experience. Whoops... sorry CR.
Back to your regularly scheduled programming...
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