The choice of religion is a personal decision. There is no evidence that your god is better than his god. You are only trying to change someone else's beliefs to make you feel more justified in yours. If religion just comes down to either you believe or you don't. What right do missionaries have to try to convince other people that their god is better?

They have the right to try... but I don't see as they have the right to threaten people if they don't convert. You know the schtick... "if you don't believe, you'll burn for eternity!"

Besides that, I don't see it as a productive means of bringing others to a faith. The only people that will convert with threats and constant pressure are the weak willed and desperate. Then again, when you look at the leaders of some faiths and their followers....

At any rate, they have the right to try, but they don't have the right to be taken seriously. If a person dismisses them, I think they should move on and try to find another person willing to take them on faith alone. To persist in trying to impose their faith only amounts to attempts to intimidate and coerce, which is wrong.

If they are missionizing in the USA that right is part of the 1st Amendment.

I didn't mean make a law against it. I was just saying it is morally wrong to convert people to your religion.

If I believed there was one path to paradise and all others led to enternal damnation, it would be morally wrong not to attempt to convert others to my belief.

That's belief would be your personal belief. You have no reason to believe that. The belief that there is one path and non believers will go to hell is very dangerous.

That is your personal belief.

Yeah that's true. I just mean religion should be about what you find spiritually comforting personally not reading a book. If people don't have their own personal philosophy they have lost some independence of thought. I just think someone else telling me that what I think God is wrong and what they think is right is arrogant. Isn't every issue on some level your personal belief which can't be changed versus the other guys belief.

Hopefully, there won't be anymore circular arguments over semantics again.

"Well, I believe that you are wrong... ah, but that's just your belief... oh, but it's only your belief that it's my belief... yeah? well it's only your belief that it's my belief that it's your belief..."

The thing with religious beliefs is that they're all pretty much unsubstantiated. They're abstract ideas with little or no evidence by which to convince a person that you are right. I can prove to a person that at death, the body becomes useless and decomposes; I cannot, however, prove to a person that at death there is some unidentified fragment of themself that continues on... much less what path it might choose to take.

I see a difference between inviting a person to a faith and trying to convert a person to a faith.

I see an invitation to be casual and a one time thing. Hey, if you're interested cool; if not, have fun believing whatever you believe -- no reason to get up in arms.
I see converting more to refer to people's aggressive actions in which they behave almost fanatically and proceed to condemn those who don't join up. It's little more than empty threats in a feeble attempt to coerce a person.

I think Ranciduncle is right that converting can be dangerous (in the way I have described) because it fosters a negative attitude and is infuriated when a person chooses not to believe something for which there is no conclusive evidence. It goes from rude to irrational to offensive.

As far as the idea of there being morality behind converting, I disagree. I can see having a moral obligation to warning a person about a fire in a theatre, which I can see is burning. I can't see having a moral obligation to warning and fussing at a person about a belief for which I'm forced to ask them to take on the merits of faith alone.

Is it wrong to try to pursuade someone to follow your beliefs? no, not really. but I you come to my door, or approach me and I say I don't believe in religion, you should leave it that, don't try to further convince me.

forced/coerced conversion is stupid. you convince someone they will suffer for all time and burn forever if the don't follow your path. these types of people are almost never fully commited to the religions belief system and go along with it because of fear (if I don't do what they say I should I'll burn forever) I know if I ran a religion I would only want you to be their of your own free will and cause you want to be (for whatever reason)

I personally feel religion is for weak minded people that need to be told what to think and how to behave. it is an archaic institution of control.

Well, my personal belief is that there really is only one religion.

And non of the established religions have it.

Therefore, don't try to convert me to your primitive, wrong beliefs

Nobody can convert anyone to the one true religion because each of us have to find it for ourselves.

Think Zen paradox.

Having drawn the attention of religious people my whole life I for one detest attempts to convert people. However, I do respect that some people feel a need. If a Jehovah's witness comes to my door on a sunday morning I politely explain to him that I am not interested in the "good word." If he comes again I open the door wearing my underwear and idly holding a carving knife. Then I don't hear from them again.

Since our lives are short in comparison to eternity I believe it is more imperative to warn people of eternal damnation than it is to warn of danger to life and limb. If I truly believe you face a future of eternal torment and set back and do nothing, because I am a coward or just don't want to make waves, I am not acting morally correct.

In such a case, Hugo, I would support only action to invite, rather than to try convincing a person to convert. Since the entire notion of an after-life relies on faith alone, as opposed to indisputable evidence, it would be irritating and useless to try and convincing somebody of something for which there is no substantiation. One would think that the futility of such an action would be enough to discourage after a declined invitation, but in addition, as was pointed out earlier, the only people that would likely be converted by tenacious persistence of such a subject would be the weak willed or desperate... people who just need something to cling to and don't care so much about the belief as the comfort having a belief (regardless of what it says) to hold onto.

Short of brain-washing techniques, you cannot "convert" anyone else to anything. They have free will, and it is their choice whether they're convinced by what you have to say or if they even want to listen. Christians have a duty to spread the Word, but there are more and less effective ways of doing so. I would argue that pushing Christianity on people who aren't interested in hearing about it is not effective at all, and in fact counterproductive in that it turns people off completely who might otherwise have been receptive at another time and context.

If you want to convert people to your belief then you should be let other people try to convert you. Would you like being asked if you wanted to convert to Hinduism, rastafarianism, or janism to save your soul? If you tell everyone who dissagrees with you about the meaning life that they are going to burn in hell you won't have many friends.

ABS,
Hah, for the first time i must say i agree with you on all your posts on this thread.
Further more, I know that anyone making the claim that others "should" not try to convert people are, themelves making a a judgment about what others "should" do. that is indoctrination in and of itself. "It's not right", or "that isn't how it should be" these are perhaps sentiments of the time. but in older times it was extremely acceptable to do so in some places and not in others. these anti-missionaries are placing their standards on others, just as they claim to be against such a philosophy.

RANCIDUNCLE,
i am more than willing to let anyone try and convert me. it happens all the time. and if it weren't for somebody trying to convert me i wouldn't be what i am today. i'm happy someone did. and i am happy others continue because it keeps me on my toes to always be looking at other religions and see that it just affirms my faith every time. also, your arguments seem to be specifically aimed at christians. almost like you dislike christians. i don't want to take things out of context but if that is true, i hope you'll understand that all christians can't be put in a box simply because a few and hellfire and brimstone preachers, talk louder than the rest of us. i believe in a love as powerful as anyone else and pure and simple, when life is said and done, then we'll all know the truth of what is to come. might as well preach it while your here.

TO ALL,
religion is love. and love is not wrong. it's not wrong to want to spread that love. people need a few things in life and after the physical needs are attained, we need love and expression. religion allows for both, and i am happy to tell anyone anytime anywhere what i believe. if you don't want to be preeched at or condemend, that's one thing, but spreading the gospel, or the talmud, or the koran, or the hiliakwanatud, or anything for that matter can't be oppressed, humans need to express. love to everyone.

If you truly believe your religion is the one true path to a heavenly reward, I would think it would be immoral not to attempt to convert others.

Media and Religion

An interesting study about how the media in this country routinely portrays religion's bad seeds and fails to report the benefits it has to society.

It must be hard to convert someone to, say, Catholicism when they always associate that religion with child molesting priests.

I like Christians. I don't like Christianity or any organized religion for that matter. I think it is wrong to tell people lies about how they know what happens when you die and about how they have all the answers. Nobody has all the answers and praying to a moldy rabbi from two thousand years ago won't help me at all. Converting someone is praying off their fear of death and uncertainty. That is wrong. People trying to convert other people has caused the destruction of native cultures, terrorism, wars of religion, and genocides. Sorry about being blunt but that's what I think .

Rancid,
With all do respect you have a rastas quote in your signature. Isn't rasta a very organized religion?

I don't think Ras Tafari is god, I just like Reggae.

well thats special, i see the main point in religion causeing the problems it does is the human side of it. if you were to come to me with one of those little orange bibles(like some old guy outside my h.s times ago) and i called you a nazi death machine it would be like hitting your mother. people have a hard time maintaining a clear head under the influence of something they love more then other people. be it any idea. just look at the boy scouts and that athiest kid, now that was a good kid if i ever saw one, and simply because he would not accept the possibility or existence of a higher power they kicked him out, is that good or bad. plus i see very young kids(teens) going on church paid trips to india to tell people thier religion(hindu) is a mask for satan worship, who draws a line on conversion ethics. to me it just gets silly sometimes.

Usually those who want to know about another person's religion ask. In my case, that's what I did when I met a woman who was so loving of others and strong in the face of the death of a loved one and so very real. She was a Catholic, and largely because of her I went in that direction on my own religious quest and joined the Catholic church several years ago.

Trying to present your beliefs to someone who has not asked is like making those annoying telephone solicitation calls, or like so much spam.
People have their own lives, and they need to be respected.

If we really believe that God wants us to give his salvation message to others, we need to trust God to know the right time. It is our job to live the life and to be ready to give an answer for the hope within us (paraphrasing a Bible verse). But if they don't ask, they're probably not interested. If they are undergoing a crisis of some sort, we might approach it, but it is always their decision to listen or to say "no."

As it stands, almost everyone knows the message of Christianity in this country.

As far as the pedophile priests go, yes, it is very disturbing to me. I will not defend their actions under any circumstances. Incidences of pedophilia, I would say, occur in every religion, but since Roman Catholicism is the religion with the highest number of celibate, male ministers, there is the greatest chance of this sort of thing happening on a large scale. (There are about a billion practicing Catholics in the world.)

Pedophilia also occurs in families. Moms, dads, uncles, aunts, brothers, sisters, etc., all have opportunities to molest children, sometimes for years. Sometimes girls give birth to their father's children. It is reprehensible in any case to hurt a child. But I would no more repudiate the Roman Catholic priesthood in general than I would parenthood. Sin (and that's what it is) can either be indulged or rejected. It is not the framework but the individuals who are responsible for their actions. The only thing I would blame the Church for is that they swept it under the rug for so long. "Family secrets" are harmful.

Our faith and the support of others in our faith are there to help us do the right thing. When it breaks down, it is a genuine tragedy for ourselves and our community. When it works, it is truly a beautiful thing.

I would add that, as far as I understand it, only Christianity and Islam are proselytising religions i.e only they and their various sects, denominations and sub-cults (including JWs) actively go out into communities and try to convert people to their own faith, either through positive persuasion (selling the benefits) or negative threats (e.g. ''you'll go to Hell'')

This is because of scriptural injuctions that the faithful must try to convert the 'infidel' (a more meaningful word here than ''unfaithful'' :-) ).I can't give you references, as I've never studied the Quran, and I'm so far lapsed as a Christian I can't remember where in the Bible it says so.

Other religions are open to converts, but generally you have to seek them out, rather than them coming to you. As with all generalisations, there are exceptions, such as the Hare Krishna's proselytising Hinduism, but it remains true that Hindus and Buddhists do not generally seek to convert non-believers.

And some make it actively difficult for outsiders to join - e.g. Judaism.

Personally, I prefer the 'seek and ye shall find' approach to proselytising. These days it is less because of any issue of fundamental morality (I think that is more pertinent to the method of conversion than the attempted conversion itself, but being a woolly liberal, I would, wouldn't I?) and more simple good manners. I have the same objections to JWs doorstepping me as I do to pressure selling - universally, they are trying to get me to do things that are presently unimportant to me. When I think I need life insurance or double-glazed windows, I will seek them. When I think I need salvation, I will seek them.

NB I have excluded out-and-out cults as commonly defined, e.g. Scientology

If all you do is accept the faith of your parents, you are a passive believer. Your faith is based on the beliefs of others. I don't think that is what is required of most Christian religions, except those who cling to the few Pauline scriptures that tend to say that grace alone does the trick. There are hundreds of references by Jesus, (the main man in Christianity, remember?) and his original apostles that tell us to do good things, obey the rules, etc. but some of my thumper friends insist on quoting the same few lines as though those few completely refute the value of works. They say works will do you no good, and I agree, if you also refuse the gift of Grace. So it takes BOTH grace and works. It isn't an OR issue, it is an AND issue.
That is my humble opinion, and if I had remained in my parents influence, I would still be guilty of never thinking about it for myself. What is the quote? "No man comes unto the father but by me", right? Your preacher, parents, etc. can't do it for you. So, yes, I am all for the missionaries, if they make you think for yourself.
Religion is useful if it helps you govern yourself, but if it is used to just govern us, it is a dangerous thing.

Good points, Bill55AZ.

It's in the Epistle of St. James that it is written that "Faith without works is dead, being alone." St. Paul wrote, "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not by works, lest any man should boast."

Sts. James and Paul had their contentions because James stood for the Jewish believers who still practiced Jewish law, including circumcision, seeing the Way (of Jesus) as an extension of Judaism; while Paul actively took the Way to the Gentiles and did not insist that Judaic law be followed as a condition of salvation.

They're both essential. And those who proclaim the message of salvation are held (at least by the unbelievers) to a higher standard of behavior than they hold those who do not espouse a life-transforming belief.

The glitch in this is that so few of us hold up to much scrutiny before our cracks start showing. But instead of attributing it to our human frailties, non-believers often cite it as a fault of our belief system. But the cool part is that believers do have a direction in which to work, a hope of growing and becoming better people.

Wouldn't it be swell if all Christians could be a cross between Superman and Mother Teresa of Calcutta? Ain't gonna happen.

(edited for content)

see thats another part of converting people that i dont like, everyone has some form of spirtuality, its the agreed method of organized religion that makes it bad in a sense becaue it takes on group human traits and "failures". to say that its great to be a christian because it gives you direction is to say humans without it fail to have any. i like to think that i belong to my own group of things in some order, but i have direction and self. and i persoanally feel insulted when some person wielding a religious text like a sword tells me i have no direction, once again the realization of other people gets bashed in the name of converting.

We have freedom of, and freedom from, religion. But bear in mind that when you live in a culture that holds a set of values to be of great importance, you are going to be expected to respect those values. At the same time, the majority culture needs to be respectful of the rights of those who think differently. I have had JW's, LDS, and the local conventional protestants show up at my door, and see no point in being offended by their presence. None of them have been pushy or rude. Occasionally someone will convert to a religion that they did not know existed, and those people are grateful for the missionaries' effort to seek them out. It would be nice if we all were actively seeking on our own, but sometimes it is even nicer to have it delivered to our door.
Now if we can just get the pizza parlors to come to our doors with free samples....

I think an important issue that has so far been left out of this debate is that of Third World missionary activity.

Conversion (to Christianity at any rate) in the Third World is generally closely linked to extensive acts of charity and philanthropy on the part of various religious groups. They might give out bibles with food. They might provide nuns as teachers. They might build schools with chapels.

These actions, whilst undoubtedly noble, selfless and well-intentioned, effectively amount to conversion through economic coersion because, by the very nature of missions / religious aid, you don't get the charity without the religion.

I believe someone famous said the opposite, that he likes Christianity, but not the Christians. He was saying that we don't apply it correctly.
Fear of death and uncertainty is universal, and it is used to manipulate us by some, but others are trying to give us hope.
If you have found the path to peace without organized religion, that is good. But others may need to be part of a group and I see no harm in these efforts.
Those protestants that like to use the fear of going to hell to control us are diminishing in numbers exponentially. People are getting smarter, and are more able to identify the false shepherds.
Those who historically mixed the powers of government and religion to "convert" were actually after material assets to enrich themselves, but now governments have to pretty much do that on their own. The power of church is diminished, and hopefully, someday, all countries will have seperation of church and state. True freedom of religion can then exist worldwide, and you will have even more people at your door.

Converting others to your religion isn't morally wrong. Missionaries who go out to convert others do so because they feel compassion toward them. Why else would a missionary, for example, leave the comforts of their life in the U.S. to travel to remote areas in Africa that have much inferior living conditions and are sometimes hostile toward people of the missionary's faith? The reason is because they genuinley believe in their faith, and want to show others the truth. I haven't heard of any missionaries who have made any personal gain from becoming missionaries.

well thats great for them and thier faith, and its romantic in the army to, why else would you go to some horrid place and kill people, but that you believe in what you are doing. i dont mind them, as long as they leave me alone and dont degrade me as a human

Converting people is absoluetely fine in my eyes. If a missionary is able to go out and convert someone to their religion, the bully for them. It doesn't bother me, partially because I'm and atheist and don't have to worry about someone trying to degrade me by telling me that my religion is incorrect. So whereas conversion may be a beef with those of you religious people, it doesn't bother me one bit. The day is far far away that soemone makes me a religious human being.

I think you're reading into what I said,

I know nothing about your religion. What you believe is your business. But if I don't get something positive from what I believe, what is the point?

If you live your life in a kind way, thinking about others and doing good things, being a good example to those who look up to you, you've got a good thing going, regardless of the belief (or absence of one) that you espouse.

Humanity without kindness and love is hell.

Christians are charged to go out and tell the Good News, that was one of the last things Jesus said to do before he accended to heaven. Jesus preached love. All Christians are supposed to do is plant the seed, like he spoke about in the parable. If that seed lands on fertile ground and take root... that's between God and that person. That is not a Christians responsibility. The Holy Spirit will speak to that person and if there heart is willing, they will open the door when Jesus knocks. Christians aren't supposed to be a SWAT team that knock the door down. It's a choice, it's called free will.

Should Christians Convert Muslims?

Found this.


I think that Christians & even other religions should be allowed to spread their religion's words. But to convert, that's where i say maybe. In the article i posted, this is basically about a group of Christians going to muslim nations and trying to convert muslims.

Christians trying to convert Muslims sounds fine because Islam is showing it's evil and hated side and has been so since Osama became a fanatic. Getting rid of the violent muslims and turn them into peace-loving Christians will do the world a lot of good

As would getting rid of the iolent Christians and turning them into peace-loving Muslims. Or Hindus. Or atheists.

The operators are not "Christian" and "Muslim", but "violent" and "peace-loving".

I have no problem with proselytizing and, as has been pointed out, "witnessing" is an important part of some Christian and Moslem denominations. I don't mind Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses coming to my door, if they don't mind me closing the door in their face. I don't even mind Scientologists or Moonies trying to convert me, if they don't mind a boot up the arse.

I think Elspeth made the best point, which is that there would probably be more conversions if more people "lived the life". As Bill mentioned, some of us don't have a problem with Christianity, but with "Christians". The behavior - the unutterable hypocrisy - of many (most?) Christians is what turned me off to religion at a very early age. It was years before I got over having thrown out the baby with the bathwater and began my own theological explorations.

Try to convert people, sure - that is your right. But try leading by example. It could make a refreshing - and convincing - change to haranguing people on their doorstep. There is an extent to which Third World missions do this (or at least try to appear to do this) - but I suspect that the faith of those who receive baptism in exchange for a bowl of gruel may not have that strong a foundation...

The sad state of the "Church" in general is that their example for "moral excellence" has been completely debunked. Catholic priests molesting children. Protestant ministers committing adultery; stealing and misleading their congregations. hypocrisy runs ramped in the Christian church. The leaders and a vast majority of the flock have forgotten or have twisted what TRUE christianity is: LOVE. Jesus's first sermon was on love. That was the main theme of his ENTIRE ministry. Compassion, forgiveness, unselfishness, patience and tolerance. But the problem with the Church is that over the last 2,000 years MAN has corrupted Jesus into another means of controlling each other. They have become just like the pharisees that tried to trip Jesus up with Jewish laws as to disprove Him, since, in their day, he was a radical. Preaching that all men are equal and that you should treat your neighbor as you would want to be treated. The parable of the Good Samaritan is another example of how the modern church has become. Two priests passed by a man on the road who had been beaten, robbed and left for dead. The two priest stepped around the poor soul and kept walking. Then a Samaritan, a lowly class, average joe, came and had compassion and helped the man. Gave with out any thought for himself. The Church has become those two priests.They talk about how they want to save the souls of man by salvation, but in order to do that you have to gain their respect and trust. You never see preachers, deacons or evangelical people in a coffee shop, hanging out, drinking coffee with the secular cultures of this country, developing a relationship and building apon that. NO. They seem to want to stay separate, locked in their churches praying, expecting God to just divinly lead people in. God , in my opinion, only listens to your prayers for so long, you have to be proactive. Jesus sat and ate with what the Jews considers the outcasts of their societies. Lepers, prostitutes, tax collectors and the such and they scorned him for that. It seems to me that some Christians, who claim to be Christ-like are nothing of the sort. They are self righteous and wear rose colored glasses to the real needs and problems of the world. Evangelicals scorn and turn people off from Jesus. There's only ONE account in the Bible of Jesus yelling and being angry and that was when the temple was being defiled by the merchants. Out of all the positive attributes and examples Jesus gave His followers, they seem to immolate that one incident. It's sad that Jesus get's a bad rap because the people His followers try to Save sometimes act more Christ-like than the actual Christians.

Though Christians were charged to go out and spread the "Good News," pressuring others to believe the way that you do does not paint Christians in a very positive light. I am a Christian, and I have a very, very strong faith in God. But to me, it is a personal faith. I do not attend church regularly because I have witnessed the hypocrisy of the church and poeple who attend church firsthand. My beliefs are my own. When people ask me if I am a Christian, I answer that I am, and if they want to know more, I tell them as honestly as I can. But I do not feel the need to pressure anyone into conversion, just as I don't feel it is right to pressure anyone to become a member of the same political party that I belong to. I feel that if God has led a person to ask me about my faith and religion, then He has done so for a reason, and I must trust Him to allow the right words to come from my mouth. The key word in my response is "pressure." People like Jerry Falwell and other hard-core evangelists really give Christians a bad name, in my opinion. We are not all "in your face," "believe as I do or you go to Hell." Some of us are actually pretty laid-back.

Marx said, and Lenin quoted him, that religion is the opiate of the people. That has been misunderstood by a lot of us, according to something I read recently. Marx was from a Jewish family that converted to Christianity, which is one thing to consider. The other thing is, at that time Opium was not thought to be an illegal substance used to get high, but was commonly available as a pain killer. So to Marx, religion was a pain reliever to the masses who would never enjoy the good life on earth. They had hopes that all would be right in the next life which probably helped to keep a lot of them from rising up and killing their oppressors.
That was the view on Marx, can't remember what the writer had to say about Lenin.
We will always have the ignorant (poorly educated) masses among us, and if religion makes them happy, so be it. Let them find happiness any way they can. Those who are educated and religious have managed to find the good parts and disregard the rest.
AND, it is dangerous to try to remove this 'pain reliever' from their lives. I make it a point to allow others to live and think the way they want, and not directly challenge their belief system, as to do so can be emotionally damaging to them. Would you take away the pain killer from someone in physical pain? I think not, and the same goes for the 'opiate' of the people.

I absolutely agree with that. So many people in my church want to be pushier about converting others than I feel comfortable with. If someone wants to know about my faith, I'll tell them, but I'm not going to hunt people down and shove Jesus down their throats. Not that all Christians do this, but for those who do, I do not believe that it is the proper approach. People will see God through what one does, not how good of a talker one is.