Oy.


Yeah, he got 6 years for stealing a pizza. That doesn't mean he wasn't eligible for 25 to life per California's three strikes and was convicted under that provision before his sentence was reduced. Here are a few more liberal urban legends in the morning for ya:

Some unusual scenarios have arisen, particularly in California—the state punishes shoplifting and similar crimes as felony petty theft if the person who committed the crime has a prior conviction for any form of theft, including robbery or burglary. As a result, some defendants have been given sentences of 25 years to life in prison for such crimes as shoplifting golf clubs (Gary Ewing, previous strikes for burglary and robbery with a knife), nine videotapes (Leandro Andrade, previous strikes for home burglary) [snip] (See Ewing v. California)

In one particularly notorious case, Kevin Weber was sentenced to 26 years to life for the crime of stealing four chocolate chip cookies (previous strikes of burglary and assault with a deadly weapon). However, prosecutors said the six-time parole violator broke into the restaurant to rob the safe after a busy Mother's Day holiday, but he triggered the alarm system before he could do it. When arrested, his pockets were full of cookies he had taken from the restaurant.

You don't have to think that three strikes laws diminish the harm and the seriousness of violent crime in our justice system and that's that. When fraud is as bad as murder, nothing matters.

NT- I am not someone that denies racism exists, that the nooes thing wasn't a VERY bad thing, and that for 5 of the Jena six, if no priors, the treatment was too harsh- the only one that I disagree with is Bell- I believe you know that for about every one crime that actually makes it on the recored- there are five or six or more that don't. Charges dropped, never charged for "lack of evidence" or whatever.

Personally- I think Bell is getting off easy- and I am willing to bet money he has murder under his belt, or at least another very serious crime before the next 5 years pass.

Lesley- same thing applies- the fact that he had cookies in his pocket is irrelevent and something cooked up to make someone feel sorry for that scumbag- bottom line is- he is a career criminal. When you have 25 or so crimes on your rap sheet, you most likely have had some success at 75 or more crimes- most were probably felony level.

I am for not even considering the type of crime for LWOPP for anyone that has rap sheet of more than 10 crimes that were originally charged as felonies but reduced to misdemeanor over a span of 10 years.

But I am also for getting rid of "victimless" crimes if we go that direction- making drugs and prostitution and whatnot legal-

I don't think you understand the string of victims that a so called "petty" thief leaves behind, and how many times they are given a slap on the wrist for very serious things, and then when the hammer finally comes down on them, it is all "poor me, a victim of the system".

I think I have an idea, CR. I just think you marginalize the victims of violent crime by waiting until the criminal commits his third offense to lock him up for a long time. If murder, rape and other heinous crimes are heinous, don't wait. Something I don't understand is our reluctance to pass/enforce mandatory minimum sentences with traditional crimes, but we don't appear to show the same hesitation for drug offenses. What do we have to be extra sure about? Our judicial system works and we nab the right guys, or it doesn't. If it doesn't, address that, but we shouldn't assuage our doubts with three strikes.

No comment on Bell?

I am not sure what you are asking me about bell- I think there are a couple posts in between that muddies your question?
I don't think you realize how serious "battery" has to be for a DA to pursue charges against ANYONE even a juvenile.

I don't think, in 20 years, have I seen a case plead out where the defendent was pleading to a WORSE crime than he actually commited- or a conviction in an assault with battery case that were the actual crime was not as bad as what the actual crime was- in other words- we tend to convict or let plea out charges that are easier to make stick than what the actual crime was. Looking at that kids face- a blow an inch or two off there- we would be talking murder.

That beating was clearly attempted murder, and the charges were appropriate, considering the severity of the beating, and the viciousness of the attack. I would say the same if the situation were reversed.

Not too serious if a DA is willing to charge a 12-year-old with battery for hitting another kid with a ball. So the whole time you were just disagreeing with me about Bell being retried as a juvenile? CR, DAs also like to overcharge to get the defendant to plead guilty to a lower charge. I doubt you even know which category battery was Bell originally convicted of. Do you have anything to go on? Is his juvee record online?


Attempted murder cuz Bell didn't remove his shoes before kicking Barker? You're stuck on Bell because he's the Jena Six's face. The only adult to break up the fight was his coach, who didn't even name him in the fight and wasn't called to testify during trial. Oh, but Bell has a juvee record, and he was charged as an adult with aggravated second-degree battery and conspiracy to commit aggravated second-degree battery. Ergo Bell is a killer.

If I was going to kill someone I would beat them badly enough so they didn't wake up after a concussion, treated for two hours, and leave the hospital on his own to show up to a ring ceremony the same night.

You're missing the point. Bell has a Juvi record with ASSAULT. 3 in two years. Juvi wasn't getting through to this kid. that's why the DA is trying to move him to adult charges. He wants this to BE ON Bell's record so that the next time Bell assaults someone he will have a record. Right now the Juvi records are sealed and can't be considered.

No. He. Doesn't. Battery is not assault. Battery is not assault and battery. Battery is not aggravated assault. By this article he has two or three battery convictions, and at least one "charge of criminal damage to property". What are you going by? Better yet does someone have the court's bond hearing, where his juvee record was originally made public?

Yup, you're right.

I definitely used the wrong word. I am going by the most of the articles you posted and the ones I did up-thread. The fact remains despite my gaffe that Bell has a violent record - that is peppered with battery and NOT assault.

Again, I concede that I am mistaken in my use of assault vs. battery.

They did not charge him with attempted murder so what are you talking about. They charged him with what he did. BATTERY (battery is worse than assault). And the fact the kid left the hospital that day does not mean that they went easy on him. He was imo lucky he was not killed. He was kicked in the head while down hard enough to get a concussion – that is his brain hit the inside of his skull. If one kick to the head had hit his windpipe instead of his eye (for example) he would have died on the spot.

So if you are trying to minimize the beating he took or alibi the punks who did it you are way off base.

They originally charged Bell with attempted second-degree murder and lowered the charge to aggravated second-degree battery because don't you know, your shoe is a weapon. I wonder if black belts are full-body weapons butt nekkid.


Wrong and depends. I was speaking of Bell's original charge, which is attempted second-degree murder. CR said the "beating was clearly attempted murder". It follows that I'd bring up the attempted second-degree murder charge in our conversation. If you're gonna dive in swim with the currents.

As for battery v. assault, it depends. Felony assault can look very much like what happened to Barker and felony battery doesn't have to. This Louisiana criminal defense website defines assault as "A willful attempt to illegally inflict injury on or threaten a person". From Findlaw: "Historically, laws treated the threat of physical injury as assault, and the completed act of physical contact or offensive touching as battery, but many states no longer differentiate between the two". Still, that bond hearing could prove helpful.


Maybe. Probably. DAs can't charge defendants based on what didn't happen.


I'm scared now.

Edit: Is anyone else wondering why I can find news stories of minors being charged, but Bell's record isn't accessible? We haven't gone over the deep end and started trying a 6-year-old as an adult for kicking a student aide in the ankle, have we?

The basic contention of the race hustlers who have descended on Jena, as well as their echo chamber here on , is that some miscarriage of justice is occurring in Jena, and its because of racism.

Revs. Sharpton and Jackson claim that harsh treatment of the Jena Six serves as a metaphor for the continued unequal justice for blacks in America.
...
Supporters of the Jena Six say their actions were sparked by the "hate crime" of the hanging of three — later reported as two — nooses on a high school campus tree. This, activists say, shows a prevalence of hate crimes against blacks in America. But economist Walter Williams notes that when hate crime statistics are adjusted for blacks' lower population numbers, proportionally, blacks commit more than twice as many hate crimes as whites.

Says the six year old was charged with felony assault- doesn't say she was charged as an adult DG! IF you have ever seen these little brats in action- perhaps a juvenile detention center will be a better place for the six year old. There is a big benefit even for the child in these cases- it gets the kid away from the dysfunctional parent, and strips them of the usual power they have of guardianship, and perhaps real treatment can continue, in a setting far more structured than a kid can get on the "outside". 5 and 6 are on the cusp of some very bad behaviors if they are allowed to continue- and if the kid is in a home that protects this kids behaviors- this is the best place for this kid to be. I have seen it with predatory but mentally ill adults- use the department of corrections to get the kids or adult into a system that removes some rights that a non-violent kid or patient has, appropriate and neccesary.

DG- Unfortunately- it is started to shake down that BD may be right in his last post- and that is very, very unfortunate. I wish there were more outrage and marching for "driving while black" and targeting of minorities by the police in general, etc etc- that is a real problem, really happens, and part of the racist underbelly of this nation.

but we have a bloody assault here, and they all deserved o be punished severely- with the 5, at least, with some juvie time and a very strict probation. If the others don't have any priors, I WOULD like to see probation upped to the age of 30, mandatory education and such. The problem is, we have the jail system too crowded with "victimless" crimes to have resources to really rehabilitate juveniles that really turns thier life around- they are there, but there are not enough of them. Alaska has a bunch of pretty good programs, alot of them have really high success rates for first through 3rd time offender.

Targeting them at this age with a serious felony, but as a juvenile, is a good thing, because this felony won't stay on thier record, but puts a great deal of control on them until age as high as 25 in some states. I think that it needs to be continued to age 30, when normally- the violence and such go down dramatically, even in some career criminals.

My feelings on this matter are that pretty much everyone that are the principals in this drama, including the protest leaders AND the DA are all handling this very badly.

I also think that Al and Jesse's behavior on this is not doing race relations any good either. All the opposition has to do is trot out that kids injury pics, and any real movement towards equality in justice will end. It is hard to look at a beat-down victim and say "he deserved it, and those kids were charged as they should have been, why are they marching for these low-life thugs"- you see, nooses or no, this victim didn't deserve the beat-down, and those 6 have no excuse for thier violent behavior.

Sometimes liberals pick the very worst examples to make an example. They could pick a bit better example, there are plenty out there.

What is DG? My point being that if she wasn't charged as an adult, why is her arrest and charge a matter of public record?


It's official. We've gone over the deep end. I have nothing further to discuss with someone who thinks first graders need to be locked up for throwing temper tantrums. You should embrace a police state and stop dissing cops for tasing people.

Amen to that!

The case against Bell does not warrant any outrage. There are so many better examples of racism.

I am sorry- for some reason, I was calling you Daffygirl- I think I had replied to something on another thread and still had her handle on brain

Anyway- okay- you have an already horrible behavior problem child, that is so out of control that they are attacking teachers, probably the last rung on the ladder for this kid- what do you propose to do? Without criminal charges- there is no help for that kid that provides enough structure and enviroment for change.

I hate to break this to you Lesley- but there is such a thing as a bad seed, and, harsh reality- some kids are just going to be evil thier whole life.

With the Jena six- I see no harshness in thier punishment for the crime committed at this point.

What makes you think the charges are too harsh? Because white poeple don't get just as harsh? If so- fine, I agree, violent offenders of any age need to be in a structured enviroment with some rights taken away- like the right to allow a parent to remove them from that structure. The problem here is not being harsh enough on white poeple- NOT being to harsh towards black offenders. We don't need to reduce the Jena 6s culpability in a violent assault with battery- attempted murder really- we just need to be as zealous with white offenders.

I also agree that the school district and DA handled the noose incident poorly- but that DOES NOT mitigate the crime of the Jena 6- do you think it does? Do you think that someone that beat a person so bady should have some slap on the wrist for this behavior?

I have taught martial arts (karate) for over 30 years. And you should believe me when I say that you can kill a person with the foot. Especially a foot with a shoe on it. Luckily this fool, as he was engaged with his friend in the cowardly act of kicking a man who is down, did not hit him in the throat – crushing the windpipe is not hard to do – esp. with a foot. The result is no air and the person will die in 2 minuets or so unless someone opens the airway.

In addition there are numerous other place the kickers could have connected with that would have done sever damage or caused death.

So the second degree murder charge was not totally unfounded as you imply.




Agreed. Assault can be the threat of harm – such as a person saying to you that he/she is going to beat you to death. Battery on the other hand is the act of inflicting the harm. We are not sure the boy was “assaulted” but we can be sure he was beaten.



Sure they can – that was the original charge. If a person attacks you and beats you unconscious the fact that you do not die does not change the fact that they attempted to do so. The tough part, and imo the reason they dropped the charge is it would be tough proving that they were trying to kill the boy as opposed to just messing him up real bad.


Meaning?? All I am saying is that if you are sitting under a tree and some men come along who have been angered by other events that have to do with the tree and/or other people and they proceed to beat you and kick you when you are down until you are unconscious, that this is a serious crime. Agreed?

Update

Mychael Bell has been released on $45,000.00 bail will not be tried as an adult.



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21000774/

I found this part of the MSNBC story of particular interest.

Walters said the demonstration had no influence on the decision he announced Thursday, and ended his news conference by saying that only God kept the protest peaceful.

"The only way — let me stress that — the only way that I believe that me or this community has been able to endure the trauma that has been thrust upon us is through the prayers of the Christian people who have sent them up in this community," Walters said.

"I firmly believe and am confident of the fact that had it not been for the direct intervention of the Lord Jesus Christ last Thursday, a disaster would have happened. You can quote me on that."

When the Rev. Donald Sibley, a black Jena pastor, called it a "shame" that Walters credited divine intervention for the protesters acting responsibly, the prosecutor said: "What I'm saying is, the Lord Jesus Christ put his influence on those people, and they responded accordingly."

Yeah, I'm so sure the demonstrations and public outcry had NO influence on the prosecutor's decision and could I also interest you in some lovely lake front property in Florida? I got two words for you Mr. Walters. Mike. Nifong. Nuff said?

I also find it fascinating that he credits the "direct intervention of the Lord Jesus Christ" for sparing the community of Jena any drama to go along with the "trauma" of the unwanted attention they've received. You would think if Jesus had been involved, he would have stepped in before all this garbage jumped off in the first place.

More on Jena.

Warning heavily slanted, but cited.

Truly disgusting. Theses thugs are going to walk with a slap on the wrist (again) for this brutal beating.

Once again Jessie Jackson and crew save the criminals and provide a wonderful lesson to black kids everywhere by making them “heroes”

I have to ask NT- you are not one that is usually forgiving of violent crimes- what do you believe these assailents deserve? I mean, I hate to take the other side on this one- but are we throwing the baby out with the bathwater here? Are we letting violent criminals go free to make a statement about racism in the south?

I see the future the same way as everybody else does, Cruising Ram; one second at a time. Whether or not The Jena 6 are on the way to becoming hardcore criminals or boys that learn a tough lesson from this experience, I can't say. If you go back to my first post in this thread you'll see where I said I felt they do deserve punishment. But attempted murder charges are ridiculous and excessive.

Nobody I know is suggesting Mychal Bell or the other boys are angels. However, I know a double standard when I see one and the standards of equal justice under the law are not being met in this case. I see an overzealous prosecutor who can't find any precedent that allows him to punish the White students who hung the nooses while going all out to destroy the lives of the Black students. There is no excuse for six to beat up one, but despite the overheated rhetoric of Ted and the rest of the "lock 'em up and throw away the key" mob, there is clearly a case of prosecutor misconduct that looks a lot like the Duke lacrosse case.

Clarence Page wrote: "This entire experience has opened my eyes up to a tragic world of injustice I never knew existed," said Reade Seligmann, one of the three accused Duke students. He and his teammates were fortunate to have the resources to fight back. Most defendants don't. That's all the more reason for those of us who believe in justice to scrupulously avoid pursuing personal agendas at the expense of the truth, no matter how much it may satisfy our preconceived notions.

Justice isn't always blind, CR and you know quite well that the past isn't always history. Sometimes it's merely prologue. Pulitzer Prize wining columnist Leonard Pitts Jr., wrote in his column, "When the Justice System Lacks Justice..."

White men taking sledgehammers to the door of the jailhouse in Marion, Ind., intending to murder three African-American prisoners. The sheriff orders his men not to interfere.

White men hearing testimony tying two white defendants conclusively to the kidnap, torture and murder of a black boy in Money, Miss. The jury takes less than an hour to set them free.

White men with badges arresting three civil rights workers for an alleged traffic violation in Neshoba County, Miss. Forty-four days later, the workers' bodies are dug out of an earthen dam.

There are other examples -- literally thousands -- but let three suffice to make the point. Which is that African Americans have frequently found the justice system to be about anything but justice. From the day slavery ended, that system has often been its surrogate, a tool used specifically for the suppression and control of black people.

There was no artifice about it. This conspiracy of beat cops and county sheriffs and DAs and judges and senators and attorneys general operated openly and with impunity. Everyone knew there were simply different rules, different enforcement and different punishment for blacks.

But it is hard to be sanguine. This unjust justice is hardly unique. Consider Genarlow Wilson, 17, sentenced to 10 years for consensual with a 15-year-old. And Marcus Dixon, 18, who drew 10 for having sex with an underage white girl. And Shaquanda Cotton who shoved a white teacher's aide and got seven years from a judge who had earlier given probation to a white girl who burned down her family's house. A 2000 study co-sponsored by the Justice Department codifies the obvious: People of color receive starkly unequal treatment in the ''justice'' system.

With the evidence of both history and the current reality, Jena is just another heretofore unknown place on the map that represents the persistence of inequity and racism in the justice system. Even here. Even now.

From the link in the opening article:

I can't see how this case can be considered unjust. It seems that at every turn the attackers have been given every benefit of the law.

The idea that several people beating up a guy on the ground is some how justified by some nooses hanging on a tree is ridiculous. Since when was provocation akin to violence? I don't see any double standard at work there. I'm more concerned with the guy who pulled a shot gun on the guys in the shop. That I can see as an 'assault type crime'. It still doesn't justify anything but threatening some one with a shot gun is far more serious than some abstract nooses being hung in a tree.

I've no doubt there is racism involved here, but I'm not convinced, from anything shown in this thread that this is a one sided racism or that a double standard is at work here.

What is really sad about Jena six is blacks still--STILL--just do not understand the legal system.

The facts are clear: some white kids hung nooses from a tree; tacky and tasteless, perhaps, but such actions are arguably protected political speech under the First Amendment, and surely no crime; months later, 6 black kids, who seem to have been habitually in trouble with school authorities and the law, beat the hell out of an unarmed, lone white kid, so much so he was knocked unconscious. And, these Jena 6 and their supporters try to link the two events, despite months separating the two, and despite the fact that the white kid beaten senseless had nothing to do with the nooses hanging from the tree.

The white kids who hung the nooses (no harm, no foul) were not prosecuted, as they committed no crime except tastelessness, which is not a crime (yet); the white "noose hanging" kids were not kicked out of school, either, but only suspended. Again, I do not know why you'd kick them out of school--they did not cheat on a test and did not commit a crime. They violated no rules except the general social notions of decorum.

The black kids, ne'er do wells who beat the hell out of a lone white kid in a cowardly, gang-like manner, were being charged with attempted murder.

So, the black kids are being prosecuted under long-standing criminal statutes relative to physical beatings within an inch of one's life, and the white kids are not charged, as they committed no crime. There should be no controversy.

As an aside, I remember some years ago I was parking at a large mall. I got a parking space when another car backed out. Another motorist coming from the other direction and blocked by the car backing out wanted the space. This lunatic leaps out of his car, breaks in my driver's side window, grabbed my head and dragged my neck back and forth along the window sill. The rubber gasket left a burn on my neck. Other mall patrons drove the guy off, but I should have been dead--any shards of glass left on the sill would have slit my throat, and the fact that the shards fell so cleanly means God was just not ready for me yet.

I pressed charges for attempted murder.

This nut (who was white, btw) got nothing but probation for battery since he had two prior arrests for minor matters but no convictions. I got the battery conviction, so the next time he'll do jail time.

The moral to the story? This dude should have been tried for attempted murder, too; and the DA would not go there on a man with no criminal record. The fact that the Jena 6 could be tried for real felony charges on these facts means they have prior records--otherwise, they'd have been given probation, too. And, of course, we know they DO have such prior history.

Take the skin color out of this and these losers, this Jena 6 wolf pack, would have been doing time already....as they should.

My wife's grandmother said it best--teach your kids how to behave or the police will teach them for you. The Jena 6 haven't been so taught, except how to beat the hell out of someone and get the most high Rev. Jessalooserus Jackson to come to their defense--for the cheap pub he and the Rev Al always crave.

NT- I still find it very hard to give those Jena six anything less than the original charges filed. You know I don't give a "pass" to white poeple that commit brutal acts of violence- which what this was.

NT- why do we have these items make racial examples in our society> I mean, I have seen injustice against blacks personally- something I would gladly march to town hall myself for- because of the injustice done to them- but I would not hesitate one second to throw the book at these guys that brutalized a defenseless white dude- even if the "jena 6" were all white as the victim.

I can't, for the life of me, figure out why Jesse Jackson and Al sharpton can't find REAL items of injustice- there are plenty out there, obviously.

While God is great and all that I think you might want to praising Rudolph Seiden who invented Tempered Safety Glass that breaks into beads not shards and has been standard equipment in automobiles since the 70s...

Well, that is the thing isn't it? Take the skin color out of this and we wouldn't even be having this discussion, would we now?

But you CAN'T take the skin color out of it and you certainly haven't made any effort to do so, quick. It's "the Black kids" this and the "White kids" that. Take the color of the perpetrators and the victims out of the equation and what's left? A school brawl. That's it! Not an attempted murder. Maybe a gang of cowards who like the odds of six-to-one compared to one-on-one, but it's nothing more than that. Throw race in the mix and suddenly it's attempted murder.

Let's remember that the kid who got jumped and supposedly beaten within an inch of his life managed to get out of his hospital bed after three hours and attend an event that same night. Not exactly a near-death experience, wouldn't you say?

Oh, and it's worth mentioning that Barker had allegedly been taunting Black students about the nooses and vocally supporting the three Whites who had hung the nooses. No provocation there, right?

But let's back it up to the two (or three) nooses hanging from the tree---the tree that was supposedly a "Whites Only" area.
You say, "some white kids hung nooses from a tree; tacky and tasteless, perhaps, but such actions are arguably protected political speech under the First Amendment, and surely no crime."

No crime involved? Yeah, you got me there. But no provocation? On that point, you, and those who have posted similar statements in this thread, have missed the boat.

Maybe to your way of thinking, quick, hanging a noose from a tree is merely "tacky and tasteless" like passing gas in a elevator, but it's not quite so mundane as you would so casually dismiss. Hang a noose from a tree. Spray "KKK" on the side of a house. Burn a cross on a lawn. Some lawyer can (and probably has) made the argument that these manifestations of hate and bigotry are protected First Amendment expressions. I'll leave that for the ACLU to hash out.

What I would consider any such act would be the physical equivalent of "fighting words." If the nooses are a form of speech as those whom are dismissing it as having any causation effect to the racial unrest that plagued the high school, then I am willing to bet the attorneys for The Jena 6 will bring up the following as part of their defense:

Fighting words doctrine. The First Amendment doctrine that holds that certain utterances are not constitutionally protected as free speech if they are inherently likely to provoke a violent response from the audience. N.A.A.C.P. v. Clairborne Hardware Co., Miss., 458 U.S. 886, 102 S.Ct. 3409, 73 L.Ed.2d 1215 (1982). Words which by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace, having direct tendency to cause acts of violence by the persons to whom, individually, remark is addressed. The test is what persons of common intelligence would understand to be words likely to cause an average addressee to fight. City of Seattle v. Camby, 104 Wash.2d 49, 701 P.2d 499, 500.

The "freedom of speech" protected by the Constitution is not absolute at all times and under all circumstances and there are well-defined and narrowly limited classes of speech, the prevention and punishment of which does not raise any constitutional problem, including the lewd and obscene, the profane, the libelous, and the insulting or "fighting words" which by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace. Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, 315 U.S. 568, 62 S.Ct. 766, 86 L.Ed. 1031.

SOURCE: Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition

Your post is filled with provocative, biased and prejudicial language. For example, Justin Barker, the victim of the assault, is described by you as a "unarmed, lone white kid" and the "lone white kid" who was "knocked unconscious," suffered "physical beatings within an inch of one's life" as he was set upon by The Jena 6 who proceeded to "beat the hell" out of young Mr. Barker.

As for Robert Bailey Jr., Theo Shaw, Mychal Bell, Carwin Jones, Bryant Purvis and a unnamed minor, how do you describe the suspects?

" 6 black kids, who seem to have been habitually in trouble with school authorities..."

"ne'er do wells..." who attacked Barker in a "cowardly, gang-like manner..."

"losers" and "this Jena 6 wolf pack"

On one hand, there's the unarmed and solitary Mr. Barker and on the other there's the habitually in trouble, ne'er do wells, sorry lot of losers who set upon their prey in a cowardly, gang like manner, the Jena 6 wolf pack.

And you have the gonads to sit there and insist it's Blacks who "do not understand the legal system?" What about you, Quick? Do you understand the concept of innocent until proven guilty?

Because I understand the power of words. I understand the power of hanging a negative tag on someone before they have their day in court and then smugly insisting the legal system is fair, impartial, unbiased and colorblind.

I understand the difference between one standard of justice for those with White skin and a different one for those with Black skin.

Is six against one a fair fight? Hell no, not even if the one is Muhammad Ali in his prime. Should the Jena 6 go free? Hell no, they shouldn't. They deserve punishment for the assault on Barker. Nooses hanging from a tree does not justify stomping on a boy lying on a floor. Racial slurs or trash talk does not justify stomping a boy lying on a floor.

But neither does it justify throwing another boy into jail until he's 40 years old. If there was a crime that deserves punishment (as most everyone seems to agree is a fact not in doubt) then it follows that the punishment should fit the crime and in this case it does not.




Therein lies the dilemma, Cruising Ram. It's a lot easier to gain sympathy and understanding when those involved are clearly on the side of the angels.

The Jena 6 are not noble innocents and this isn't their first time at the rodeo. They aren't exactly on the same level as Rosa Parks, Medgar Evers, or Viola Liuzzo when it comes to being clear victims of bigotry.

These kids are not angels. But neither are they blood-crazed demons from hell. There is a certain amount of latitude being given to the three White youths that precipitated the violence as "boys being boys" who took a prank too far that isn't being extended to the Black youths.

They made a mistake--a bad one. But Barker did not die and was not seriously hurt.

You want to "throw the book" at The Jena 6, CR? By all means, do so. Just make sure when you do that the justice that's handed is reasonable, fair and equitable. So far, it's been anything but.

Finally, I have to say something about all this talk about Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and their part in this situation.

While Jackson and Sharpton never saw a photo-op they didn't like, the march on Jena wasn't their brainchild. They just tagged along for the ride and the perpetually lazy mainstream media--the same ones who had missed the story for months--chose to put their faces on the evening news.

But this is a story that started small with bloggers and Black radio leading the charge. It's easier to turn the cameras on "the usual suspects" like Jackson and Sharpton who know how to provide a 30-second soundbite for the TV networks to chew over than it is to shine the light on unknowns who post on blogs White folks don't read or spread the 411 on radio stations White folks don't listen to.

Princeton Associate Professor of Politics and African American Studies, Melissa Harris Lacewell writes on her blog:

Black Americans are both capable of and willing to mobilize for racial justice. The case of six promising young black men victimized by aggressive prosecutorial racism started as a local story in a small Louisiana town. But black information networks of all kinds picked up on the case and began a massive campaign of information, education and advocacy. Email list serves, websites, black newspapers, black talk radio and networks of politically active ministers turned Jena 6 into the lead story for the evening news. They did so with almost no assistance from the mainstream press. The same press who staked out the Durham courthouse for months, provided exclusive interviews for the Duke Lacrosse players and their families, and chided Nifong for overzealous prosecution were deafeningly silent on Jena. But black people organized, protested and showed their collective capacity and will to come to the aid of the community’s children.

The other important limit of black politics so clearly demonstrated in the Jena 6 mobilization is our reliance on outdated strategies and leaders from another generation. Enough already with he hegemony of Al and Jesse. Why did the grassroots leadership who so courageously put together this demonstration so easily “pass the mic” to the old guard leadership? We can honor our elders and the enormous contributions they have made to the struggle against racial injustice and inequality without giving the impression that they are the only ones who can negotiate on our behalf.

Professor Harris-Lacewell couldn't be more right when she says that while Jackson and Sharpton are worthy of respect for their due dilligence in pursuing justice for African-Americans, eventually, inevitably, they must relinquish the stage so younger activists with fresh approaches and new strategies came take over. No one or two self-appointed "leaders" can be allowed or expected to speak for 30 million Black people.

And just once---just ONCE---I would really like to see some of that excess outrage that so many posters in this thread have directed at Jackson and Sharpton directed towards the likes of the White supremacists such as David Duke, who have seized upon the situation in Jena for a little face time as well.

A neo-Nazi Web site posted the names, addresses and phone numbers of some of the six black teens and their families at the center of the Jena Six case and urged followers to find them and "drag them out of the house," prompting an investigation by the FBI.

David Duke, the former Ku Klux Klan leader, announced his support last week for Jena's white residents, who voted overwhelmingly for him when he ran unsuccessfully for Louisiana governor in 1991.

McMillin has insisted that his town is being unfairly portrayed as racist -- an assertion the mayor repeated in an interview with Richard Barrett, leader of the white supremacist Nationalist Movement and who asked McMillin to "set aside some place for those opposing the colored folks."

"I do appreciate what you are trying to do," Barrett quoted McMillin as saying. "Your moral support means a lot."

Barker's father, David, said his family did not know the nature of Barrett's group when they agreed to be interviewed, adding, "I am not a white supremacist, and neither is my son."

link

If we're going to get our our high horses and denounce racial opportunists, let's make sure we denounce ALL of them and not just the ones that stir our personal distaste.

Ah- so to clarify- you are NOT cool with the attempted murder charges- but okay with assault and battery being the charge?
we are talking felony assault right? I can probably live with that as well- there is the issue of provocation- which this truly was- as it appears anyway- depending on who's story we are getting here- but I have no reason to doubt that this kid that was the victim of the beating wasn't just an innocent bystander that these six guys went after for no reason.

I noticed Mos Def seems to be one of the folks leading the charge down there as well.

But I also don't think it inaccurate that we are talking about six thugs here either- no angels, to be sure- but not really deserving of too much outrage at the charges that they were charged with- perhaps the outrage should lie with the blase' attitude over the crosses.

And the fact that this county so overwhelmingly voted David Duke points to the obvious fact that this town IS a hot bed of racists- I think it silly to portray them in any other manner.

This entire fiasco may very well serve the Jena 6 well- but it will harden alot of folks around the nation that otherwise would probably be sympathetic to the unequal justice system in our country- where white moms can murder thier babies and get away with it, and black men get the book thrown at them for far less serious crimes.

But it is going to be very hard for the next case like this to get any leniancy for black men accused of a crime- instead, they will just make sure they are better prepared to fight them in the media.

Say what? No, it's not. Underage students don't have the same rights adults enjoy, especially on school grounds where speech and expression may interfere with appropriate school discipline. It would be interesting to know whether Jena High School thinks hanging nooses doesn't break down discipline, but don't make a First Amendment defense out of this.

Maybe the legality is different, but I'm beginning to switch sides on this argument. At first I was like "WHAT? THIS IS A TRAGEDY!!!!"....

Wanna know why? The media doesn't tell you about their repeat offenses, how they beat the kid until he was knocked out, etc. They don't talk about it being a 6-on-1 offense, and months after the noose situation.

Since I've read more and attempted to see this for what it is, I'd have to associate the nooses to a REALLY UGLY statement that kids might make about each other. Is it different from kids flying rebel flags from their truck antennas? Is it different from kids calling each other names on the football field? I don't really think so.

Verbal abuse, as tastless and classically ignorant as the noose is, is really not different than what happens in schools every day. The kids associated with the noose were suspended, as they should be. Afterall, no physical harm was done.

THEN, a kid who had a rap sheet for violent crime beats a kid unconscious and WHAMMO- he's locked up. He's 16 and knew what he was doing. 3rd strike. What's going to stop him? Jail time I'd hope. Maybe not as long as he got, but really... what if I'd been arrested that many times, and then beat a guy up that bad outside of a bar? What if it was MY 3rd offense?

Would Rickey Smiley show up? Where would Ice Cube be? I applaud them attempting to help out what seemed to be a really ugly situation, but I'm beginning to wonder if they know the same things we do. Did they know this kid had a record?

I don't think anyone (excepting murders, sexual criminals, very violent criminals, etc) should be locked up for extremely long periods. It's expensive to both the community as well as the families and the person specifically incarcerated. But - I'd have to say... was this just some "school yard fight that people like to portray? Not really.

Good question and IMO the answer is that these two gravitate to where the “story” is so as to get the public eye. Never mind that they often back the wrong people and events – they get their faces in the news.

This case is a perfect example. So ya I have the same question.

An update of sorts on this. John Mellencamp has released a new song and video, Jena-take your nooses down. the mayor of Jena is not happy.

nighttimer:


I hadn't previously known of this. Thank you for the clarification.



Another interesting point from nighttimer. I'm curious to know if anyone has a rebuttal to these two statements as to whether or not they are indeed true.

1 - Love JCM... he's wrong on this issue.
2 - If I beat everyone who provoked me into unconsciousness I'd be in jail. If I did it with 5 other people I'd belong in jail, oh and I'd be a bleeping coward.
3 - This is true. He did leave against Drs orders but yeah, as note WAAAAAY upthread this wasn't nearly the worst beating any of us has seen (or in some cases administered) but if that was your son how would you feel?

The problem is that there IS a multi-tiered justice system with black males the most persecuted AND prosecuted of the bunch- I think it shows great ignorance to suggest otherwise.

That being said- I don't want shorter sentences or lessor charges to the "jenna six" - rather- we need harsher sentences and stiffer charges to white females, white males, black females and the rich.

When Andrea Yates, or any other white chick that murders her children are met with as harsh of charges as the Jena 6, or, as with the Duke Lacross case, that piece of human offal is held to the same standards as the Jenna 6, I think it will be a good thing.

The key is not to let bad guys get away with bad things- the key is to not let ANY bad poeple get away with bad things, whether they are female, male, white or black or rich or poor.

As far as I am concerned- these guys need the massive slap down- but the problem is, and why this resonates with so many poeple in the black community- is that we let white girls, white men and the rich get away with worse stuff without sanction.

This would not be a subject of debate if we put the smackdown on other bad folks.

The key word here is “alleged” and I would like to see more proof of this not that it makes a difference since this could never be an excuse for the 6 on 1 beating.



I disagree. You can be sure that minorities get lots of breaks in the criminal justice system. We know this because of the people walking around with “rap” sheets as long as your arm. Released and plea bargained again and again until some poor person (often another kid) is dead.

Who has said The Jena 6 were justified in beating Mr. Barker? No one. The point is--whether it makes a difference or not---is he was not a random victim by any stretch of the imagination. That doesn't excuse the beating he suffered. It does however put it in a different context.

And since you obviously have computer access, I'm going to assume you know how to use a search engine to find the "proof" you require, Ted.



Wrong.

Four years before an indifferent, drowsy press and public finally fumed at the news that a prosecutor and judge tossed the book at six black teens in a small Louisiana town for beating up a white teen following a racially charged incident, a Louisiana legislative investigating team sternly warned that the state’s juvenile justice system was horribly mangled.

It found that the state couldn’t lock up juveniles fast enough for mostly non-violent crimes. The team noted that the sentences slapped on them were wildly out of proportion to their crimes, and that the kids had almost no access to counseling, job and skills training, and family support programs that could ensure that they didn’t wind up back in the slammer.

Though alternative sentencing programs are far more cost effective than jailing, they are scarce and under-funded, and Louisiana officials have resisted calls to increase funding and resources to boost these programs.

The investigators also found unsurprisingly that black teens were hit with far stiffer sentences than white teens for the same crimes. It made no difference whether the whites had a prior history of criminal or bad behavior and the black teens were altar boys and had a squeaky clean record. The blacks still got harsher sentences. Countless studies show that a black teen is six times more likely to be tried and sentenced to prison than a young white, even when the crimes are similar, or even less severe than those committed by white teens. (emphasis added)

Nationally, blacks make up 40 percent of youths tried in adult courts and nearly 60 percent of those sentenced to state prisons. link 1

Need more "proof," Ted? Noooooo problem.

According to a review of the latest data from the Bureau of Justice Statistics released by The Sentencing Project, a nonprofit criminal justice center, African-Americans are incarcerated at nearly six times the rate of whites, and Hispanics nearly double the rate. Louisiana has a higher rate of black incarceration than the national average or that of nearby states such as Alabama, Mississippi and Georgia. But it has a lower rate than Texas, Florida and others. Marc Mauer, executive director of The Sentencing Project, blamed the growing disparities on racial bias and a failure of social and economic interventions to address crime effectively. link 2

Not enough? Okay, how about this?

A report by Building Blocks for Youth found that African-American young people are almost 25 percent more likely than whites to have their cases referred to adult courts, even when charged with the same offenses; that African-American youth are more likely than whites to receive a disposition of out-of-home placement such as commitment to a locked facility, while white youth are more likely to be placed on probation for the same types of offenses; and that even when the type of offense and prior record are the same, incarceration rates for state public facilities are higher for African-American and Latino youth than for whites. link 3

Your unfortunate tendency to make baseless and unfounded assumptions have run rampant thus far in your postings in this thread, Ted. On the bright side however, it does present an opportunity to swat aside some of your more absurd claims with some much needed facts about how unequally justice is doled out in America.

I understand that this is probably very true, but why?

Is it racism or socio-economic disparity? How many times in the "countless" studies (which I note- is always on some "black man being held down" website, but I digress) did the black defendant have a public defender?

How many cases show that the "alter boy" black kids were sentenced, when the whites weren't?

For every study you present about "injustice" we can most likely find 2 that show the crime coming from Black Americans is significantly higher, justifying the number of black people in jail.

Here's a quote from your article I find hilarious:


I didn't get any free training or counseling from the state of Louisiana either. I'm not in prison. Ironic I know. HOW ON EARTH DID I MAKE IT WITHOUT A FREE RIDE???

I understand that often times poor kids feel like crime is justified in that they're not worried about records or college entrance exams.



What does this sentence mean? Nothing really. It doesn't even mention the types of crimes, the repeat offenders, etc. What if the kids that are white are being tried for petty crimes, and black kids are getting into trouble for violent crimes? No one knows.

I don't doubt for a second that poor people get sentenced more, due to lack of resources. Black Americans are most likely to be poor. I just wonder if there are studies that break down the financial resources of Black defendants (I didn't find any) vs White defendants and sentencing.

Are there studies about repeat offenders by race, and the number of sentences doled out, then broken down by type of crime?

In my opinion, as I've had limited experience in the justice system but have seen it first hand, believe that there is a huge socio-cultural gap in income levels. For instance, I got a minor ticket at Mardi Gras one year. I showed up to court in a suit, along with about 300 other people. I was the only person with a tie on, and about one of 10 who even had a dress shirt on. Why? Didn't people know they were going to see a judge? People had baggy pants, looked like they hadn't showered, etc.

It had nothing to do with race in my opinion, as there were some white people that fit the "badly prepared" stigma. However- more Blacks were there, and many got some sort of sentence, even though the judge is Black. Bad attitudes prevailed. Ignorance was apparent. Poorer people seemed to have just no idea how to act in that situation, and how to get their rear ends out of a sling. Not everyone has a suit, but getting as cleaned up as you can, standing up straight, addressing the judge as "your honor", calling the DA ma'am (or sir), etc were things that seemingly weren't in their plans. I sat about 5 feet from a (coincidentally Black) Sheriff in the court room who mentioned that people were "clueless".

Is this a nationwide phenomenon? I have no proof, but probably. If someone doesn't respect the law, the court system, and shows it at trial, chances are that judges and juries are less likely to be empathetic. If a jury feels like they're putting someone away that is likely to re-offend (because they don't respect the system), it's probably a TON easier to sleep at night than had they put away someone that they felt comfortable with.

In my opinion, the only way to stop Black flight to prison is to give them something to live for. I don't mean a hand-out, but a late model car, a microwave, cable tv, and a mortgage. The only way to make that happen is for people to respect and value education, to put stock in delayed reward, to initiate a relationship between goals and motivation. So long as poor people in America feel like they've been "slighted" and dealing drugs or stealing cars is justified, they're going to steal cars. But if they have a decent job and a life, jail time seems like it has a higher opportunity cost.

The kid in Jena that had been arrested 3 times for assault needed to be locked up. But does sitting on a cot in jail change him? Probably not. It probably makes him more angry, and Rickey Smiley telling him he's been "slighted" doesn't allow him to understand that his crime landed him in jail.

What I agree with NT is that if someone was making racist comments to me, I might be angry. That very freedom of speech, however, is protected. Assault isn't. It's an easy concept to understand. We need these kids to know that what they did landed them in the clink. They don't need to be "victims", but as of right now they are... and that very behavior has almost been reinforced.

Get offended? Beat someone up. Then Ice Cube and Will Smith and Al Sharpton will come to your rescue. Hog wash man. Hog wash.

The whole country has gone nuts.

Bigots everywhere have become emboldened by the mess down in Jena.

I'm not sure exactly why any 'bigot' would be 'emboldened' by what happened in Jena. Do they want to get the crap beat out of them too?

Yes, media coverage brings out the freaks. Nothing new there (white envelope power comes to mind). Maybe I'm a wee bit too cynical, but it seems to me that a person who has written several books on racism can only stand to gain by finding a noose in the professor's office that sparks a hate crime task force investigation plus student rally. I'm betting a future book is in the works....

Actually, I'd say you're being way too cynical, Mrs. Pigpen.

Your cavalier disdain of the noose hanging in Professor Constantine's office and your sarcastic suggestion that possibly she "stands to gain" by writing another book about racism goes beyond mere cynicism. You passed cynicism and went straight to a dismissive "so what?"

Apparently, what we are seeing here is what CruisingRam cautioned elsewhere in this thread:



Which is regrettable. The problem of self-segregation and racial animus between schoolkids took an extreme turn in Jena, Louisiana, but it is hardly an isolated event as we can clearly find similar boiling pots elsewhere in the U.S.

CLEVELAND - A high school student said Thursday that he and classmates had warned their principal about threats by a classmate who shot and wounded four people before killing himself, and believed the attack could have been prevented.

The student, Rasheem Smith, said on CBS' "Early Show" that despite their warnings about the student who opened fire Wednesday, Asa H. Coon, principal Johneita Durant told them she was too busy.

"I told my friends in the class that he had a gun and stuff," said Smith, 15. "He was talking about doing it last week. I don't know why they didn't say nothing.

"When he got suspended, he was like `I got something for you all,'" said student Frances Henderson, who said she often got into arguments with Coon. "I guess this is what he had."

Coon, who was white, stood out in the predominantly black school for dressing in a goth style, wearing a black trench coat, black boots, a dog collar and chains, she said.

Henderson, who is black, she said she didn't believe race played a role in the shootings. link

--------------------------------

LITITZ, Pa. - For years, a clique of high school students in this prosperous and overwhelmingly white borough have worn clothes adorned with Confederate flags and parked their pickups in a section of the school parking lot known as "redneck row."

The display, some parents of minority students say, was just one symptom of festering racism that school officials ignored until animosities boiled over last week.

That's when three white 16-year-old students allegedly yelled racial slurs and threw paper wads at minority students outside the 1,600-student Warwick High School.

School officials vowed to discipline the three students, tighten security and ban Confederate flags on school property. On Wednesday, police charged the three with disorderly conduct.

The "disturbing and repulsive" Oct. 3 confrontation was a "wake-up call" for Warwick High School, said Superintendent John George. "Perhaps we were lulled into a false sense that our school district was immune to racism and bigotry," he said.

Some students suspect the perpetrators were trying to imitate white students in Jena, La., who fanned racial tensions last year by hanging nooses from a tree outside a high school. link 2

Be as blase about acts of overt bigotry all you like, Mrs. Pigpen, but cool indifference won't do a damn thing to eliminate racial animus between the races. Proof yet again of the wisdom of Martin Luther King's admonishment, "History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people."