Full Version: Jena
To be honest, I'm not quite certain where to even start on this one. 
A simple timeline shows that this has been building up over time. It appears that actions on the part of the black students are treated more severly than when whites do it. The principal's recommendation to expel students was overriden by the board, who felt that hanging nooses from trees were simply a prank. 
A white student was beaten up by a group of black students, and received some pretty stiff sentences, though most have been reduced, with only Mychel Bell's case still dangling in the wind as his adult sentence was tossed out and he still can't get out of jail. A black student was beaten up before then, but I can't find anything about the book being thrown at him(them) 
More recently, a few teens have been arrested for driving by the Jena 6 protest marchers with nooses hanging from their trucks. The FBI is investigating white hate websites that purport to give out the addresses of the Jena 6.
Questions for debate
1.)What discrepancies if any, exist in regards to the treatment of the white students versus the black students in regards to the school authorities and the legal system?
2.)Has the federal government, through the department of justice done enough in this case? Why or why not?
3.)What can/should be done about racial problems in Jena to fully resolve this issue?
4.)Do the white school board members and community at large, take black issues and concerns seriously? Could this whole controversy have been averted had they taken it more seriously than they did?
A simple timeline shows that this has been building up over time. It appears that actions on the part of the black students are treated more severly than when whites do it. The principal's recommendation to expel students was overriden by the board, who felt that hanging nooses from trees were simply a prank. A white student was beaten up by a group of black students, and received some pretty stiff sentences, though most have been reduced, with only Mychel Bell's case still dangling in the wind as his adult sentence was tossed out and he still can't get out of jail. A black student was beaten up before then, but I can't find anything about the book being thrown at him(them) More recently, a few teens have been arrested for driving by the Jena 6 protest marchers with nooses hanging from their trucks. The FBI is investigating white hate websites that purport to give out the addresses of the Jena 6. Questions for debate
1.)What discrepancies if any, exist in regards to the treatment of the white students versus the black students in regards to the school authorities and the legal system?
2.)Has the federal government, through the department of justice done enough in this case? Why or why not?
3.)What can/should be done about racial problems in Jena to fully resolve this issue?
4.)Do the white school board members and community at large, take black issues and concerns seriously? Could this whole controversy have been averted had they taken it more seriously than they did?
1.)What discrepancies if any, exist in regards to the treatment of the white students versus the black students in regards to the school authorities and the legal system?
As I understand it, the black youth in this case are being charged with assault. They assaulted someone... It is a principle of American jurisprudence that mitigation is a factor for sentencing not indicting a defendant. Were they provoked? Hell yes... but part of a existing in a civil society means understanding that provocation is not a sufficient justification for breaking the law.
As for the white instigators... they got what they deserved in the beating they received; but there isn't a law on the books that can punish them for being jerks. The black student being violated however is an angle on this story that I have not read. The off-campus incidents are not described in sufficient detail for me to comment on them.
That being said, the events of this case are merely the fruit of America's obsession with "justice" and punishment. These black youths are being charged as adults because, quite simply, American justice is more about punishment and fear; and that is where racism comes in. The prospect of violent black youth is frightening to the general public, which is why this rush to charge everyone as an adult goes largely unopposed in this case.
3.)What can/should be done about racial problems in Jena to fully resolve this issue?
Euthanize everyone over the age of twelve.
As I understand it, the black youth in this case are being charged with assault. They assaulted someone... It is a principle of American jurisprudence that mitigation is a factor for sentencing not indicting a defendant. Were they provoked? Hell yes... but part of a existing in a civil society means understanding that provocation is not a sufficient justification for breaking the law.
As for the white instigators... they got what they deserved in the beating they received; but there isn't a law on the books that can punish them for being jerks. The black student being violated however is an angle on this story that I have not read. The off-campus incidents are not described in sufficient detail for me to comment on them.
That being said, the events of this case are merely the fruit of America's obsession with "justice" and punishment. These black youths are being charged as adults because, quite simply, American justice is more about punishment and fear; and that is where racism comes in. The prospect of violent black youth is frightening to the general public, which is why this rush to charge everyone as an adult goes largely unopposed in this case.
3.)What can/should be done about racial problems in Jena to fully resolve this issue?
Euthanize everyone over the age of twelve.
1.)What discrepancies if any, exist in regards to the treatment of the white students versus the black students in regards to the school authorities and the legal system?
3.)What can/should be done about racial problems in Jena to fully resolve this issue?
I'm sure we'll here from the usual pseudo-Conservatives who always whine about being called bigots how badly mistreated the white residents of Jena are.
QUOTE
As I understand it, the black youth in this case are being charged with assault. They assaulted someone... It is a principle of American jurisprudence that mitigation is a factor for sentencing not indicting a defendant. Were they provoked? Hell yes... but part of a existing in a civil society means understanding that provocation is not a sufficient justification for breaking the law.
And yet the previous assaults (including pulling a gun on them) of black teenagers were ignored by the police. Apparently taking a gun away from a violent redneck is theft but the initial introduction of the weapon is nothing to be concerned about under Southern law.3.)What can/should be done about racial problems in Jena to fully resolve this issue?
I'm sure we'll here from the usual pseudo-Conservatives who always whine about being called bigots how badly mistreated the white residents of Jena are.
I simply cannot wrap my arms around the "Free the Jena 6" movement.
It seems to me that there has been a simmering racial tension there between a group of whites and a group of blacks. There have been fights, assaults, thefts, and arson.
However, it is not in dispute that the "Jena 6" brutally beat a kid at school, causing him to be hospitalized. The news report I saw said that when he was taken from the school by ambulance he was unconcious, bleeding from both ears, and close to death. That is not in dispute.
The real outrage is that the white students on the other side of the dispute have not been charged as harshly. Of course, that may stem from the fact that they didn't beat a kid half to death in the halls of the school. Yes, there does seem to be some unequal application of justice in the incidents before this one, but pardon me while I don't allow a group of people to use the excuse that somebody used the N word to justify kicking a kid's head in at school.
The protests by our esteemed Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have reduced the sentences involved in one side of this heinous dispute. Instead of calling for stiffer punishment for the whites involved (which is what I advocate) they protest so that the Jena 6, who without a doubt beat a kid half to death, got off easy.
Many of the details of this story are being disputed. Black and white becomes gray in La. town
1.)What discrepancies if any, exist in regards to the treatment of the white students versus the black students in regards to the school authorities and the legal system?
Here's the thing: in some of these previous disputes, it was the word of one person against another. That does not give a prosecutor much to go on for charging someone. The Jena 6 without a doubt beat a kid down in the middle of the school. Whatever their excuse, it simply is not acceptable.
Mychal Bell was on probation for two prior counts of battery. The kid is not a saint (although apparantly he is a good football player).
2.)Has the federal government, through the department of justice done enough in this case? Why or why not?
Why would this be a federal case? The Department of Justice did investigate whether the "noose incident" was a race related hate crime.
3.)What can/should be done about racial problems in Jena to fully resolve this issue?
From what I've heard, Jena has not had racial disputes like this in the past. Blacks who grew up in Jena (including one NFL player) said they never experienced this type of environment. The football team in Jena has both blacks and whites on it and functions fine. People need to be less thin-skinned and get along with others.
4.)Do the white school board members and community at large, take black issues and concerns seriously? Could this whole controversy have been averted had they taken it more seriously than they did?
How could it be taken more seriously?
It seems to me that there has been a simmering racial tension there between a group of whites and a group of blacks. There have been fights, assaults, thefts, and arson.
However, it is not in dispute that the "Jena 6" brutally beat a kid at school, causing him to be hospitalized. The news report I saw said that when he was taken from the school by ambulance he was unconcious, bleeding from both ears, and close to death. That is not in dispute.
The real outrage is that the white students on the other side of the dispute have not been charged as harshly. Of course, that may stem from the fact that they didn't beat a kid half to death in the halls of the school. Yes, there does seem to be some unequal application of justice in the incidents before this one, but pardon me while I don't allow a group of people to use the excuse that somebody used the N word to justify kicking a kid's head in at school.
The protests by our esteemed Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have reduced the sentences involved in one side of this heinous dispute. Instead of calling for stiffer punishment for the whites involved (which is what I advocate) they protest so that the Jena 6, who without a doubt beat a kid half to death, got off easy.
Many of the details of this story are being disputed. Black and white becomes gray in La. town
QUOTE
But there are many in Jena who say the tale of the "Jena Six" — the black teenagers who were charged with attempted murder and conspiracy for attacking a white classmate at Jena High School last December — is not as simple as all that.
Black and white, they say that in its repeated retelling — enhanced by omissions and alterations of fact — the story has taken on a life of its own. It has transformed a school-yard stomping into an international cause celebre, and those accused of participating in it into what one major Southern daily came to describe as "latter-day Scottsboro Boys."
And they say that while their town's race relations are not unblemished, this is not the cauldron of bigotry that has been depicted.
Black and white, they say that in its repeated retelling — enhanced by omissions and alterations of fact — the story has taken on a life of its own. It has transformed a school-yard stomping into an international cause celebre, and those accused of participating in it into what one major Southern daily came to describe as "latter-day Scottsboro Boys."
And they say that while their town's race relations are not unblemished, this is not the cauldron of bigotry that has been depicted.
QUOTE
_The so-called "white tree" at Jena High, often reported to be the domain of only white students, was nothing of the sort, according to teachers and school administrators; students of all races, they say, congregated under it at one time or another.
_Two nooses — not three — were found dangling from the tree. Beyond being offensive to blacks, the nooses were cut down because black and white students "were playing with them, pulling on them, jump-swinging from them, and putting their heads through them," according to a black teacher who witnessed the scene.
_There was no connection between the September noose incident and December attack, according to Donald Washington, an attorney for the U.S. Justice Department in western Louisiana, who investigated claims that these events might be race-related hate crimes.
_The three youths accused of hanging the nooses were not suspended for just three days — they were isolated at an alternative school for about a month, and then given an in-school suspension for two weeks.
_The six-member jury that convicted Bell was, indeed, all white. However, only one in 10 people in LaSalle Parish is African American, and though black residents were selected randomly by computer and summoned for jury selection, none showed up.
_Two nooses — not three — were found dangling from the tree. Beyond being offensive to blacks, the nooses were cut down because black and white students "were playing with them, pulling on them, jump-swinging from them, and putting their heads through them," according to a black teacher who witnessed the scene.
_There was no connection between the September noose incident and December attack, according to Donald Washington, an attorney for the U.S. Justice Department in western Louisiana, who investigated claims that these events might be race-related hate crimes.
_The three youths accused of hanging the nooses were not suspended for just three days — they were isolated at an alternative school for about a month, and then given an in-school suspension for two weeks.
_The six-member jury that convicted Bell was, indeed, all white. However, only one in 10 people in LaSalle Parish is African American, and though black residents were selected randomly by computer and summoned for jury selection, none showed up.
1.)What discrepancies if any, exist in regards to the treatment of the white students versus the black students in regards to the school authorities and the legal system?
Here's the thing: in some of these previous disputes, it was the word of one person against another. That does not give a prosecutor much to go on for charging someone. The Jena 6 without a doubt beat a kid down in the middle of the school. Whatever their excuse, it simply is not acceptable.
Mychal Bell was on probation for two prior counts of battery. The kid is not a saint (although apparantly he is a good football player).
2.)Has the federal government, through the department of justice done enough in this case? Why or why not?
Why would this be a federal case? The Department of Justice did investigate whether the "noose incident" was a race related hate crime.
3.)What can/should be done about racial problems in Jena to fully resolve this issue?
From what I've heard, Jena has not had racial disputes like this in the past. Blacks who grew up in Jena (including one NFL player) said they never experienced this type of environment. The football team in Jena has both blacks and whites on it and functions fine. People need to be less thin-skinned and get along with others.
4.)Do the white school board members and community at large, take black issues and concerns seriously? Could this whole controversy have been averted had they taken it more seriously than they did?
How could it be taken more seriously?
QUOTE(nebraska29 @ Sep 23 2007, 12:02 AM) 
[b]Questions for debate
1.)What discrepancies if any, exist in regards to the treatment of the white students versus the black students in regards to the school authorities and the legal system?
[/b]It seems like the white students involved have not physically attacked the black students and put them in the hospital which may account for the "discrepancies". Of course the white student who was beaten was at a party later that day so I can't imagine there was much permanent damage. Just let these idiots beat the crap out of each other.1.)What discrepancies if any, exist in regards to the treatment of the white students versus the black students in regards to the school authorities and the legal system?
QUOTE(nebraska29 @ Sep 23 2007, 12:02 AM)
2.)Has the federal government, through the department of justice done enough in this case? Why or why not?
This is a local thing. However, since it's quite possible that the local authorities won't handle this case fairly the Feds should be involved in order to monitor the local authorities.QUOTE(nebraska29 @ Sep 23 2007, 12:02 AM)
3.)What can/should be done about racial problems in Jena to fully resolve this issue?
Steel cage brawl?QUOTE(nebraska29 @ Sep 23 2007, 12:02 AM)
4.)Do the white school board members and community at large, take black issues and concerns seriously? Could this whole controversy have been averted had they taken it more seriously than they did?
? More seriously than what? How?**
As for the White Supremacy idiots with the home addresses... subpoena the ISP get the address of the idiot attached to this site and put him (and you know it's a him) in jail.
I think the level of ignorance about this case is indicative of the lack of major media attention it has received until the recent demonstrations, which have resulted in some superficial coverage. Democracy Now has been following it for months. You can review their coverage (including interviews with defendants, lawyers, school officials, family members, and a white member of the school board). Transcript of this coverage are available in their archives. For a brief review of the situation I will quote from a recent Article in The Nation.
Up front we need to recognize how differently whites and blacks (particularly in the South) view the symbol of a "noose." After the end of Reconstruction blacks were "kept in their place" by what was essentially a terrorist threat of white violence. It has only been 52 years since Emmett Till was lynched for whistling at a white woman. An estimated 5,000 lynchings took place in the post Civil War period. (See this Wkipedia Article). For those with family memories of living under the threat of terror, a noose can't be dismissed with "adolescences play pranks." Think about how differently the situation would be viewed if Jewish youths had been taunted with the display of Nazi flags!
The role of District Attorney Walters is also revealing. Everyone seemed to march to his tune. Prior to the fight, he not only threatened the black students with "ending their lives with the stroke of a pen," after the event he acted as the school board attorney and wouldn't let it discuss the case for "legal reasons." The charges he leveled against the black students were clearly excessive and disproportional to his treatment of white students and his failure to charge the white man who pulled a gun on a group of black students. No one, including the black leaders, Jesse Jackson and Reverend Sharpton that some like to vilify, has suggested that the blacks involved in the fight go unpunished. Only that they be charged as juveniles and with charges appropriate to the circumstances.
Something, also needs to be said about the federal role or lack of such a role. The Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department, which in previous administrations, would have looked into such a situation, under GWB has been gutted with political appointments and the resignations of disillusioned dedicated staff attorneys. This lack of review probably contributed to the DA's sense of omnipotence and poor behavior.
QUOTE
The story, rehearsed by now in newspapers around the globe, begins at an assembly last fall, when a black freshman asked if he was allowed to sit under a large tree on school grounds that he had heard was "whites-only." He was given permission, but the next day three nooses were found swinging from its branches. The principal tracked down the offenders, three boys from the rodeo team, and recommended expulsion. But superintendent Roy Breithaupt opted for a three-day in-school suspension. "Adolescents play pranks," he told the Chicago Tribune. "I don't think it was a threat against anybody."
Racial tensions continued to escalate throughout the fall. A group of black students organized a sit-in under the tree to protest the white students' light punishment. Fights broke out in school and at parties; a white man waved his gun in a confrontation with black students at a convenience store; and on November 30 one of the school buildings was suspiciously set ablaze. Then, on December 4, Bell slugged Justin Barker, a white student who had been taunting him with racial slurs and defending the noose-hangers, and the other members of the Jena Six joined in. During the skirmish, Barker smacked his head on the pavement and suffered a concussion. He was treated at the local hospital and released a few hours later, and was in good enough shape to head out and socialize that evening.
District Attorney Walters, who had earlier that fall threatened black students at school that he could "take away your lives with a stroke of my pen," pushed for maximum charges. The Jena Six were expelled, arrested and charged with attempted second-degree murder and conspiracy--their shoes were described as potentially lethal weapons. Bell, the first to face trial, saw his murder charges reduced to aggravated second-degree battery. No attempt was made by his public defender to contest the racial makeup of the jury pool, nor did he call any witnesses during the trial. Bell was convicted by an all-white jury in June.
Racial tensions continued to escalate throughout the fall. A group of black students organized a sit-in under the tree to protest the white students' light punishment. Fights broke out in school and at parties; a white man waved his gun in a confrontation with black students at a convenience store; and on November 30 one of the school buildings was suspiciously set ablaze. Then, on December 4, Bell slugged Justin Barker, a white student who had been taunting him with racial slurs and defending the noose-hangers, and the other members of the Jena Six joined in. During the skirmish, Barker smacked his head on the pavement and suffered a concussion. He was treated at the local hospital and released a few hours later, and was in good enough shape to head out and socialize that evening.
District Attorney Walters, who had earlier that fall threatened black students at school that he could "take away your lives with a stroke of my pen," pushed for maximum charges. The Jena Six were expelled, arrested and charged with attempted second-degree murder and conspiracy--their shoes were described as potentially lethal weapons. Bell, the first to face trial, saw his murder charges reduced to aggravated second-degree battery. No attempt was made by his public defender to contest the racial makeup of the jury pool, nor did he call any witnesses during the trial. Bell was convicted by an all-white jury in June.
Up front we need to recognize how differently whites and blacks (particularly in the South) view the symbol of a "noose." After the end of Reconstruction blacks were "kept in their place" by what was essentially a terrorist threat of white violence. It has only been 52 years since Emmett Till was lynched for whistling at a white woman. An estimated 5,000 lynchings took place in the post Civil War period. (See this Wkipedia Article). For those with family memories of living under the threat of terror, a noose can't be dismissed with "adolescences play pranks." Think about how differently the situation would be viewed if Jewish youths had been taunted with the display of Nazi flags!
The role of District Attorney Walters is also revealing. Everyone seemed to march to his tune. Prior to the fight, he not only threatened the black students with "ending their lives with the stroke of a pen," after the event he acted as the school board attorney and wouldn't let it discuss the case for "legal reasons." The charges he leveled against the black students were clearly excessive and disproportional to his treatment of white students and his failure to charge the white man who pulled a gun on a group of black students. No one, including the black leaders, Jesse Jackson and Reverend Sharpton that some like to vilify, has suggested that the blacks involved in the fight go unpunished. Only that they be charged as juveniles and with charges appropriate to the circumstances.
Something, also needs to be said about the federal role or lack of such a role. The Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department, which in previous administrations, would have looked into such a situation, under GWB has been gutted with political appointments and the resignations of disillusioned dedicated staff attorneys. This lack of review probably contributed to the DA's sense of omnipotence and poor behavior.
I am a bit on Amlords camp on his one- lets be very clear- attempted murder, looking at the pictures of that white teen, were VERY appropriate in this case. There is no way in the world any objective person could say otherwise- that white teen is very lucky to be alive. Those or wounds of a sustained beating- a centimeter difference in a blow here or there- we would be talking murder here.
1.)What discrepancies if any, exist in regards to the treatment of the white students versus the black students in regards to the school authorities and the legal system?
Okay- this is the hardest part of this case for me- there is no doubt there is a different standard for the justice system- I have said it before- white women get nearly no punishment, no matter how hienous the crime, followed by black women, then rich black men, rich white men, then poor whites, and, at the bottom of the justice system- poor black men are considered throw away, and recieve a heavily disproportionate treatment in the justice system- a classic example is some recent high profile murders by women in this country of thier children- Andrea Yates- were she a black male- no doubt she would be on death row, even if the black male were a drooling MR with schizzophrenia- or the recent slaying of the baby by the michigan college student- given bail because she was too upset to be able to handle jail? (saw that on Nany Grace last night)- and, earlier this month- the white poor guy from Tennesee who killed his four kids - he was killed by electric chair earlier this month, I am for his sentace- he killed his kids- but there is no way Andrea Yates should have been given the sentence she recieved- she should be killed too.
So yeah, there are HUGE discrpencies- and Sharpton and Jackson are correct on this one- and if there is one thing that makes me angry- it is when those two are proven correct!
Also- it should be pointed out that Sharpton himself said the 6 black youths should be punished, or made to pay for thier crimes- niether Sharpton or Jackson have said that these six don't deserve punishment for what they have done.
2.)Has the federal government, through the department of justice done enough in this case? Why or why not?
Absolutely not- had the hammer been put down earlier on the white kids- there probably woudn't be a problem today. It is no secret that white men are given preferential treatment over black men- so the best way to avoid this is to give equal justice to all.
3.)What can/should be done about racial problems in Jena to fully resolve this issue?
Well, first off, obey the judges order and release the kid that had his sentence overturned. Duh. That right there shows racism by the system. No way in heck should that kid still be held in jail- I would be right there with the marchers demanding his release.
4.)Do the white school board members and community at large, take black issues and concerns seriously? Could this whole controversy have been averted had they taken it more seriously than they did?
Obviously- no, the school board treated this way to casually. Wouldn't be a problem if they would have nipped this in the bud.
1.)What discrepancies if any, exist in regards to the treatment of the white students versus the black students in regards to the school authorities and the legal system?
Okay- this is the hardest part of this case for me- there is no doubt there is a different standard for the justice system- I have said it before- white women get nearly no punishment, no matter how hienous the crime, followed by black women, then rich black men, rich white men, then poor whites, and, at the bottom of the justice system- poor black men are considered throw away, and recieve a heavily disproportionate treatment in the justice system- a classic example is some recent high profile murders by women in this country of thier children- Andrea Yates- were she a black male- no doubt she would be on death row, even if the black male were a drooling MR with schizzophrenia- or the recent slaying of the baby by the michigan college student- given bail because she was too upset to be able to handle jail? (saw that on Nany Grace last night)- and, earlier this month- the white poor guy from Tennesee who killed his four kids - he was killed by electric chair earlier this month, I am for his sentace- he killed his kids- but there is no way Andrea Yates should have been given the sentence she recieved- she should be killed too.
So yeah, there are HUGE discrpencies- and Sharpton and Jackson are correct on this one- and if there is one thing that makes me angry- it is when those two are proven correct!
Also- it should be pointed out that Sharpton himself said the 6 black youths should be punished, or made to pay for thier crimes- niether Sharpton or Jackson have said that these six don't deserve punishment for what they have done.
2.)Has the federal government, through the department of justice done enough in this case? Why or why not?
Absolutely not- had the hammer been put down earlier on the white kids- there probably woudn't be a problem today. It is no secret that white men are given preferential treatment over black men- so the best way to avoid this is to give equal justice to all.
3.)What can/should be done about racial problems in Jena to fully resolve this issue?
Well, first off, obey the judges order and release the kid that had his sentence overturned. Duh. That right there shows racism by the system. No way in heck should that kid still be held in jail- I would be right there with the marchers demanding his release.
4.)Do the white school board members and community at large, take black issues and concerns seriously? Could this whole controversy have been averted had they taken it more seriously than they did?
Obviously- no, the school board treated this way to casually. Wouldn't be a problem if they would have nipped this in the bud.
It's been asked elsewhere on this board why people think big government pseudo-Conservatives are bigots. This is the answer.
Defend lynching all you want, but don't freaking whine about it when the rest of us call you what your really are. But you know, good for you guys posting the home addresses of children on hate sites. I'm sure nothing bad could come of that, and if it does we all know it's the fault of people with too much melanin in their skin for being "uppity" and thinking they have the same rights as the rest of us.
Defend lynching all you want, but don't freaking whine about it when the rest of us call you what your really are. But you know, good for you guys posting the home addresses of children on hate sites. I'm sure nothing bad could come of that, and if it does we all know it's the fault of people with too much melanin in their skin for being "uppity" and thinking they have the same rights as the rest of us.
QUOTE(Grendel72 @ Sep 24 2007, 02:32 PM)
It's been asked elsewhere on this board why people think big government pseudo-Conservatives are bigots. This is the answer.
Defend lynching all you want, but don't freaking whine about it when the rest of us call you what your really are.
Defend lynching all you want, but don't freaking whine about it when the rest of us call you what your really are.
Who was lynched? Who is defending lynching? Who is the rest of you, and what are you calling pseudo-Conservatives?
Your post isn't very clear.
Grendel72, would you care to specify for us which parts of which posts "defend lynching." That may reduce the level of hyperbole and make it easier to clear things up 
As far as the discrepancies in punishment / penalties... Despite the heinous symbolism of nooses, I would say that putting someone in the hospital with a concussion and bleeding from the ears is worse than hanging a noose on a tree. I doubt (but don't know obviously) that any of the black students really believed that white students were planning to lynch anyone. Expelling / not expelling kids for fights in school is a totally different thing from aggravated assault. Hanging nooses from trees vs. aggravated assault are also two different things. I don't see where comparing penalties gets us anywhere.
If anything, making the punishment for the white kids harsher would be a good thing. That is not, however, what mssrs Jackson and Sharpton are seeking. They want the penalty for the black kids lowered. Which is wrong, obviously. They are comparing the defendant's thuggish assault against a student with Dr. King's non-violent civil rights fight. Which is wrong, and demeans Dr. King and his legacy.
We had the same crap at my high school, featuring the same symbolism, the same misguided racist youth, the same fighting, etc. It passed after some tough disciplinary action.
As far as the discrepancies in punishment / penalties... Despite the heinous symbolism of nooses, I would say that putting someone in the hospital with a concussion and bleeding from the ears is worse than hanging a noose on a tree. I doubt (but don't know obviously) that any of the black students really believed that white students were planning to lynch anyone. Expelling / not expelling kids for fights in school is a totally different thing from aggravated assault. Hanging nooses from trees vs. aggravated assault are also two different things. I don't see where comparing penalties gets us anywhere.
If anything, making the punishment for the white kids harsher would be a good thing. That is not, however, what mssrs Jackson and Sharpton are seeking. They want the penalty for the black kids lowered. Which is wrong, obviously. They are comparing the defendant's thuggish assault against a student with Dr. King's non-violent civil rights fight. Which is wrong, and demeans Dr. King and his legacy.
We had the same crap at my high school, featuring the same symbolism, the same misguided racist youth, the same fighting, etc. It passed after some tough disciplinary action.
From the link I posted:
And pseudo-Conservatives are those who call themselves Conservatives while supporting ever larger government, who complain of activist judges while cheering the supreme court appointing the leader of the free world. Basically anyone who still supports the Republican party while it spits in the face of Barry Goldwater's conservatism. It would be a grave insult to genuine conservatives to call these people Conservative in any way.
Charging kids as adults with attempted murder when the moron who provoked the fight is up and going to school events the very night of the attack is ridiculous. Charging the kids with assault would be the right thing to do if the authorities applied it fairly.
QUOTE
CNN first reported Friday about the Web site, which features a swastika, frequent use of racial slurs, a mailing address in Roanoke, Va., and phone numbers purportedly for some of the teens' families "in case anyone wants to deliver justice."
Of course, that's nothing to do with lynching, is it. And hanging nooses from a tree to intimidate black kids is just a silly, harmless prank rather than an overt threat of lynching.And pseudo-Conservatives are those who call themselves Conservatives while supporting ever larger government, who complain of activist judges while cheering the supreme court appointing the leader of the free world. Basically anyone who still supports the Republican party while it spits in the face of Barry Goldwater's conservatism. It would be a grave insult to genuine conservatives to call these people Conservative in any way.
Charging kids as adults with attempted murder when the moron who provoked the fight is up and going to school events the very night of the attack is ridiculous. Charging the kids with assault would be the right thing to do if the authorities applied it fairly.
QUOTE(Grendel72 @ Sep 24 2007, 12:57 PM)
From the link I posted:
And pseudo-Conservatives are those who call themselves Conservatives while supporting ever larger government, who complain of activist judges while cheering the supreme court appointing the leader of the free world. Basically anyone who still supports the Republican party while it spits in the face of Barry Goldwater's conservatism.
QUOTE
CNN first reported Friday about the Web site, which features a swastika, frequent use of racial slurs, a mailing address in Roanoke, Va., and phone numbers purportedly for some of the teens' families "in case anyone wants to deliver justice."
Of course, that's nothing to do with lynching, is it. And hanging nooses from a tree to intimidate black kids is just a silly, harmless prank rather than an overt threat of lynching.And pseudo-Conservatives are those who call themselves Conservatives while supporting ever larger government, who complain of activist judges while cheering the supreme court appointing the leader of the free world. Basically anyone who still supports the Republican party while it spits in the face of Barry Goldwater's conservatism.
Some horrible neo-nazi made a website, and will soon be spending quality time with the FBI.
You linked that site and said the following.
QUOTE(Grendel72)
Defend lynching all you want, but don't freaking whine about it when the rest of us call you what your really are. But you know, good for you guys posting the home addresses of children on hate sites.
Allow me to translate:
"(you) defend lynching all you want." - You are saying that posters here are defending lynching. I know that the (you) is the implied subject of an imperative clause, because we are covering it right now in 8th grade English at casa carlito.
"don't freaking whine about it when the rest of us call you what your really are" - Here you are calling posters here racists. And not very subtly, I may add.
"good for you guys posting the home addresses of children on hate sites" - Here you are implying that "we" (posters on this topic) are posting addresses of children on hate sites. Your source? A neo-nazi who made a web page.
In summary, you are arguing against something not said by anyone here. I believe they have a word for that.
As for the rest of your accusations and implications, they have a word for that too.
QUOTE
TedN5
Then, on December 4, Bell slugged Justin Barker, a white student who had been taunting him with racial slurs and defending the noose-hangers, and the other members of the Jena Six joined in. During the skirmish, Barker smacked his head on the pavement and suffered a concussion
Then, on December 4, Bell slugged Justin Barker, a white student who had been taunting him with racial slurs and defending the noose-hangers, and the other members of the Jena Six joined in. During the skirmish, Barker smacked his head on the pavement and suffered a concussion
The way the story is told on national TV the boy who was beaten unconscious had no pert in the “noose” incident and did not taunt anyone.
Not that this makes it ok for 6 kids to beat and kick anyone who is down into unconsciousness – buy do you have independent confirmation that this kid had taunted Bell?
QUOTE(Grendel72 @ Sep 24 2007, 01:57 PM)
Charging kids as adults with attempted murder when the moron who provoked the fight is up and going to school events the very night of the attack is ridiculous. Charging the kids with assault would be the right thing to do if the authorities applied it fairly.
I agree that the kids should've never been tried for attempted murder. A day or two in jail, a fine, and maybe some community service would've been in order. These are, afterall, kids.
I don't agree with a rope in a tree, but don't think anyone should use it as their argument for the violent act. I understand S. Louisiana culture more than anyone. If I were a gamblin' man, I'd say that some white prominent people asked that the kids get the 'book thrown at them', and the kids showed their rear-ends in court. This retard judge didn't think about the press it would get Jena and how terrible it would appear for Louisiana. He simply wanted to make a name for himself in the eyes of his white constituents. I think he should be disbarred for the mess.... but would also give my eye tooth to have been a fly in that courtroom.
One thing that bothers me is that it's caused another racially charged scenario, that to a certain degree negates responsibility on the parts of any of the involved kids. What do they learn? They learned that the system hosed them, and that people could careless that they stomped a mud-hole in a white kid... because he "allegedly" put a rope in a tree. What does the white kid learn? If you put a rope in a tree, the black kids will do something stupid and the law will punish them inordinantly... "showing them".
No positive end result excepting maybe exposing a bigot judge. Black kids eventually get out of jail due to protests, white kid heals and still acts like a jerk. No lessons taught I'd suppose.
Groups of thugs gang up on people every day, quite often in bias motivated assaults. Some of us have been on the receiving end of said assaults, with no outcry from any pseudo-conservatives and many pseudo-conservatives egging the attackers on with dehumanizing rhetoric. Yet there's no outrage over the epidemic of bias motivated crime from pseudo-conservatives. One racist moron gets the beatdown he's been asking for, though, and suddenly it's attempted murder.
One might wonder where the outrage concerning this assault goes when it comes to other assaults. One might wonder where the outrage over this assault was when black students in Jena were assaulted by white students, when they had weapons pulled on them.
The kids involved should be charged with assault and given a fair trial, but it never should have come to this in the first place, and if maybe just a little bit of the outrage coming from pseudo-conservatives were in evidence when the people being assaulted weren't white it wouldn't have reached this point.
If pseudo-conservatives were concerned when things like this happen maybe things wouldn't reach the point of violence erupting.
One might wonder where the outrage concerning this assault goes when it comes to other assaults. One might wonder where the outrage over this assault was when black students in Jena were assaulted by white students, when they had weapons pulled on them.
The kids involved should be charged with assault and given a fair trial, but it never should have come to this in the first place, and if maybe just a little bit of the outrage coming from pseudo-conservatives were in evidence when the people being assaulted weren't white it wouldn't have reached this point.
If pseudo-conservatives were concerned when things like this happen maybe things wouldn't reach the point of violence erupting.
I have to agree with Aevens on this one
1) One non-violent, though hateful, behavior does not warrant beating a white kid that is not involved with the scenario
2) The kids hanging the noose should have been punished more severly- and the gun incident should have elicited more response as well- including federal gun charges. Those kids should have thier lives ruined.
3) The Judge and schoolboard over the white kids are racist retards
4) The black kids doing the beating should be held strongly accountable for thier violent behavior- no matter the race.
1) One non-violent, though hateful, behavior does not warrant beating a white kid that is not involved with the scenario
2) The kids hanging the noose should have been punished more severly- and the gun incident should have elicited more response as well- including federal gun charges. Those kids should have thier lives ruined.
3) The Judge and schoolboard over the white kids are racist retards
4) The black kids doing the beating should be held strongly accountable for thier violent behavior- no matter the race.
QUOTE(Grendel72 @ Sep 24 2007, 04:37 PM)
The kids involved should be charged with assault and given a fair trial, but it never should have come to this in the first place, and if maybe just a little bit of the outrage coming from pseudo-conservatives were in evidence when the people being assaulted weren't white it wouldn't have reached this point.
Ok. Now you're going top far. Consider that if this was a black kid getting beaten up, it would've been a hate crime and subject to federal prosecution.
What people don't understand is that there is no Al Sharpton defense for white people in this situation. Think of the Sean Bell deal. People even on AD made it into a race debate, when the first shot was by a Black cop. Al Sharpton got in the middle of it, etc.
Admittedly, this is an injustice. However- I don't buy for a min that if the roles were reversed that it wouldn't have been a huge deal. Those poor kids, had they been white, would've been lucky to stay out of federal prison and dodge hate crime legislation (which seemingly is exactly what transpired).
I admire people like Will Smith, Ice Cube, or even Rickey Smiley for going to this. The problem I have is that at times it becomes a springboard for issues that aren't racially centered. Bad service in Louisiana? BOOM- the waiter is a racist. No job offer? WHAMMO- Prejudice. Of course. It must be.
1.)What discrepancies if any, exist in regards to the treatment of the white students versus the black students in regards to the school authorities and the legal system?
I guess the Jim Crow south is back with a vengeance. A “white” tree?! Good grief, words fail. I’ll give props to the principal for recommending expulsion for the cretins who hung the nooses in the tree, though it was for naught. What may seem like a “prank” to some is anything but. It’s frightening to know there are still places in America where dangling a noose from your truck and bragging about your KKK tattoo and your families’ ties to that hateful organization still occur.
But, even though the nooses imply violence, and the racial epithets lobbed at the black students are inexcusable, the assault did occur, and should carry ramifications. Should it have merited an attempted murder charge? No. I do believe there is disparate treatment here (especially in the shotgun threat; since when is theft of a weapon more serious than threatening someone with it?), where the white perpetrators were handled differently, and that just threw gasoline on an already hot fire. The white kid who threatened a black kid at a party got away with it. The white guy who threatened the black kids with a shotgun got away with it. The racist taunts were smirked away as just children fooling around and should not have been. Would the white boy have been assaulted if he hadn’t been calling the black kids names? Would he have called them names if not for the noose incident that seems to have started this whole sad case?
I believe the “Jena 6” should receive punishment, but no more or less than if it were 6 white kids beating up a black kid, and I don’t believe that is the case here. This was a schoolyard brawl, and it should have been handled in juvenile court.
2.)Has the federal government, through the department of justice done enough in this case? Why or why not?
It sure seems like someone is dragging their feet. It’s been nearly a year. I think the school made a major mistake in not taking the noose incident seriously, even reporting it as a hate crime, which would have gotten the feds involved. Those students should have been expelled. The fact that they weren’t emboldened the rest of the students who harbored racist feelings. Maybe this incident wouldn’t have happened if that one seminal moment had been handled differently.
3.)What can/should be done about racial problems in Jena to fully resolve this issue?
Hell, if now, 40+ years after the civil rights movement, this is how far (?) they’ve come, I don’t think anything is going to change Jena. From what I read, educated blacks move out of the town because they know there is no opportunities for them there. Nothing can make hard-core racists feel any different, or the targets of their hate feel any different, either.
4.)Do the white school board members and community at large, take black issues and concerns seriously? Could this whole controversy have been averted had they taken it more seriously than they did?
No to the first question, and yes to the second. The noose incident should have been handled more seriously.
I guess the Jim Crow south is back with a vengeance. A “white” tree?! Good grief, words fail. I’ll give props to the principal for recommending expulsion for the cretins who hung the nooses in the tree, though it was for naught. What may seem like a “prank” to some is anything but. It’s frightening to know there are still places in America where dangling a noose from your truck and bragging about your KKK tattoo and your families’ ties to that hateful organization still occur.
But, even though the nooses imply violence, and the racial epithets lobbed at the black students are inexcusable, the assault did occur, and should carry ramifications. Should it have merited an attempted murder charge? No. I do believe there is disparate treatment here (especially in the shotgun threat; since when is theft of a weapon more serious than threatening someone with it?), where the white perpetrators were handled differently, and that just threw gasoline on an already hot fire. The white kid who threatened a black kid at a party got away with it. The white guy who threatened the black kids with a shotgun got away with it. The racist taunts were smirked away as just children fooling around and should not have been. Would the white boy have been assaulted if he hadn’t been calling the black kids names? Would he have called them names if not for the noose incident that seems to have started this whole sad case?
I believe the “Jena 6” should receive punishment, but no more or less than if it were 6 white kids beating up a black kid, and I don’t believe that is the case here. This was a schoolyard brawl, and it should have been handled in juvenile court.
2.)Has the federal government, through the department of justice done enough in this case? Why or why not?
It sure seems like someone is dragging their feet. It’s been nearly a year. I think the school made a major mistake in not taking the noose incident seriously, even reporting it as a hate crime, which would have gotten the feds involved. Those students should have been expelled. The fact that they weren’t emboldened the rest of the students who harbored racist feelings. Maybe this incident wouldn’t have happened if that one seminal moment had been handled differently.
3.)What can/should be done about racial problems in Jena to fully resolve this issue?
Hell, if now, 40+ years after the civil rights movement, this is how far (?) they’ve come, I don’t think anything is going to change Jena. From what I read, educated blacks move out of the town because they know there is no opportunities for them there. Nothing can make hard-core racists feel any different, or the targets of their hate feel any different, either.
4.)Do the white school board members and community at large, take black issues and concerns seriously? Could this whole controversy have been averted had they taken it more seriously than they did?
No to the first question, and yes to the second. The noose incident should have been handled more seriously.
Was listening to NPR on Sirius and there was a reporter from the area (who, oddly mentioned, "I like being black") and his take was the following:
1) This attack had nothing to do with the nooses and the attackers said so.
2) Bell was charged as an adult with attempted murder because he had other juvinile assault charges against him and they didn't seem to have any effect on him as he was still up to the same stuff.
3) Seems that the idea that Jena is some redneck racist town isn't really the case. In fact, Bell had been living with a white family since after his latest run in with the law his parents threw him out.
I am going to try and find the article now. If I can't I'll pull this post.
This (probably) isn't the article but it does talk about Bell's Juvi record.
This is the Article.
1) This attack had nothing to do with the nooses and the attackers said so.
2) Bell was charged as an adult with attempted murder because he had other juvinile assault charges against him and they didn't seem to have any effect on him as he was still up to the same stuff.
3) Seems that the idea that Jena is some redneck racist town isn't really the case. In fact, Bell had been living with a white family since after his latest run in with the law his parents threw him out.
I am going to try and find the article now. If I can't I'll pull this post.
This (probably) isn't the article but it does talk about Bell's Juvi record.
This is the Article.
QUOTE(aevans176 @ Sep 24 2007, 04:03 PM)
Ok. Now you're going top far. Consider that if this was a black kid getting beaten up, it would've been a hate crime and subject to federal prosecution.
No, it wouldn't. If the motivation for the beating were racial bias it should have been treated as a hate crime subject to federal prosecution, no matter the race of the people involved on either side. Somehow, though, when black students were racially taunted and physically assaulted it wasn't prosecuted. Why might that be? The lack of prosecution surely couldn't have anything to do with the anger, could it?The kid who was beaten was taunting the group about a previously ignored assault some white students had made on black kids.
QUOTE(Grendel72 @ Sep 24 2007, 03:50 PM)
QUOTE(aevans176 @ Sep 24 2007, 04:03 PM)
Ok. Now you're going top far. Consider that if this was a black kid getting beaten up, it would've been a hate crime and subject to federal prosecution.
No, it wouldn't. If the motivation for the beating were racial bias it should have been treated as a hate crime subject to federal prosecution, no matter the race of the people involved on either side. Somehow, though, when black students were racially taunted and physically assaulted it wasn't prosecuted. Why might that be? The lack of prosecution surely couldn't have anything to do with the anger, could it?The kid who was beaten was taunting the group about a previously ignored assault some white students had made on black kids.
We are into a bit of speculation here Grendel72 - you won't ge me defending racism or uneven justice- I think my post record here speaks for itself.
But I also heard the report BA did on the radio-
though the noose incident was very obviously not handled correctly- Bell is a thug and needs to do hard time in jail.
Let's not excuse one very bad behavior because someone else commited a bad behavior. Let's bust all bad behaviors- agreed?
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Sep 24 2007, 06:19 PM)
We are into a bit of speculation here Grendel72 - you won't ge me defending racism or uneven justice- I think my post record here speaks for itself.
But I also heard the report BA did on the radio-
though the noose incident was very obviously not handled correctly- Bell is a thug and needs to do hard time in jail.
Let's not excuse one very bad behavior because someone else commited a bad behavior. Let's bust all bad behaviors- agreed?
As I've said all along, try the kids for assault. My sole point has been that the "outrage" from pseudo-censervatives is non-existent when it comes to the epidemic of bias motivated violence, when it comes to this exact same kind of attack when it is directed against minorities. Some might consider it telling that this sort of violent attack only garners "outrage" from pseudo-conservatives in this case. Some might consider it telling that the "outrage" is directed at people concerned with the events leading up to the assault that were ignored by authorities rather than being "outraged" at white supremacists calling for lynchings.But I also heard the report BA did on the radio-
though the noose incident was very obviously not handled correctly- Bell is a thug and needs to do hard time in jail.
Let's not excuse one very bad behavior because someone else commited a bad behavior. Let's bust all bad behaviors- agreed?
Nobody has claimed the kid who was assaulted was one of those who hung the nooses. He was a friend of those kids, as well as of some kids who assaulted a group of black teenagers, which is what he was by all accounts taunting the kids who attacked him about. The nooses were a part of a long stream of intimidation of blacks that were condoned by authorities, not the sole item.
QUOTE(Grendel72)
Gs, with no outcry from any pseudo-conservatives and many pseudo-conservatives egging the attackers on with dehumanizing rhetoric. Yet there's no outrage over the epidemic of bias motivated crime from pseudo-conservatives. One racist moron gets the beatdown he's been asking froups of thugs gang upn people every day, quite often in bias motivated assaults.
Every day, black kids in my neighborhood maim and kill each other, yet the gay community of Oklahoma remains silent. Edited to remove personal attack. Apparently, hating conservatives enough gives one absolute moral authority to speak on behalf of the "oppressed." The only attackers I would egg on is those pointing out your naked hatred for all things conservative.
Feel free to answer my rebuttals to your earlier posts, if you feel like, you know, debating.
The critical error made was that of the white knuckleheads who put up the nooses. They failed to label them as
Art.
Think "*** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** Christ" and other such wonders of "edgy art".
Sorry, but putting nooses on a tree, while certainly in bad taste, and offensive, and such, isn't a crime, not in a free society, and bovine puckey about "legacy of slavery" when slavery ended 140+ years ago, or "legacy of Jim Crow" when that bird died 40 years ago, is a crock.
The assault (attempted murder? perhaps, depends on what was said and whether or not they stopped their stompdown on their own or when others intervened), the shotgun incident, all should be handled as straight up crimes without all this "hate crime" junk. But hey, if the poverty pimps and their sympaticos here on
want to cry "hate crime", well, then Bell and his 5 compatriots should be gone for a long, long time, because I don't know how else you're going to paint 6 blacks stomping the daylights out of a white kid. Oh, right, I forgot.
Lyberal symmetry means that whites are never victims of hate crimes at the hands of minorities... at least not in lyberal eyes.
All you need to know about what this case is about in the media and leftist culture can be known simply by recalling two simple words:
Duke Lacrosse
Art.
Think "*** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** Christ" and other such wonders of "edgy art".
Sorry, but putting nooses on a tree, while certainly in bad taste, and offensive, and such, isn't a crime, not in a free society, and bovine puckey about "legacy of slavery" when slavery ended 140+ years ago, or "legacy of Jim Crow" when that bird died 40 years ago, is a crock.
The assault (attempted murder? perhaps, depends on what was said and whether or not they stopped their stompdown on their own or when others intervened), the shotgun incident, all should be handled as straight up crimes without all this "hate crime" junk. But hey, if the poverty pimps and their sympaticos here on
want to cry "hate crime", well, then Bell and his 5 compatriots should be gone for a long, long time, because I don't know how else you're going to paint 6 blacks stomping the daylights out of a white kid. Oh, right, I forgot.Lyberal symmetry means that whites are never victims of hate crimes at the hands of minorities... at least not in lyberal eyes.
All you need to know about what this case is about in the media and leftist culture can be known simply by recalling two simple words:
Duke Lacrosse
QUOTE(Grendel72 @ Sep 24 2007, 06:50 PM)
No, it wouldn't. If the motivation for the beating were racial bias it should have been treated as a hate crime subject to federal prosecution, no matter the race of the people involved on either side. Somehow, though, when black students were racially taunted and physically assaulted it wasn't prosecuted. Why might that be? The lack of prosecution surely couldn't have anything to do with the anger, could it?
The kid who was beaten was taunting the group about a previously ignored assault some white students had made on black kids.
The kid who was beaten was taunting the group about a previously ignored assault some white students had made on black kids.
Grendel- there was no assault prior to the Jena 6 jumping a white kid on his own. It was a cowardly act, and should be punished in some form (as I've said... some comm service, a fine, maybe a few days in the clink).
But the black kids were assaulted? Now you're taking this to another level. What agenda are you pushing?
It was a hate crime. It was sincerely and ultimately racially motivated. It's just that in the US, black on white crime is rarely considered a hate crime.
Here's a good example:
http://www.adversity.net/Cincinnati_Race_R...attlePDorPC.htm
Taunting isn't assault. Taunting is normal juvenile behavior, albeit not racial. I'd appreciate you getting off your "the kid deserved it" soap box. There are plenty of people that I'd like to knock out, and stomp a mud hole in... the thing is that no one ever deserves that for something they simply said.
I agree, aevans176 that people don’t need to be beaten up.
I must, however, point out that that you are understating what the white kids did. This is a little more than schoolyard taunting.
There are some things that are so embedded in a group’s history that they cannot be erased and and the re emergence of such symbols is like ripping a scab off a wound. How do Jews look at swastikas? Can they see one some punk has scribbled on a bathroom wall without thinking of the horrors their ancestors endured at places like Auschwitz-Birkenau, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor, and Treblinka?
http://www.deathcamps.info/
Likewise, I would suggest that the noose is a similar, emotion provoking, symbol for today’s Black Americans. A “white” tree draped with nooses?
Here are a couple of links to lynching of blacks. Did the white kids not rip the scabs from healing wounds? If one is Black, how does he/she ignore stuff like this?
http://www.umass.edu/complit/aclanet/ACLAText/USLynch.html
Here’s a more graphic link – not pretty.
http://www.liu.edu/cwis/cwp/library/africa...00/lynching.htm
I must, however, point out that that you are understating what the white kids did. This is a little more than schoolyard taunting.
There are some things that are so embedded in a group’s history that they cannot be erased and and the re emergence of such symbols is like ripping a scab off a wound. How do Jews look at swastikas? Can they see one some punk has scribbled on a bathroom wall without thinking of the horrors their ancestors endured at places like Auschwitz-Birkenau, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor, and Treblinka?
http://www.deathcamps.info/
Likewise, I would suggest that the noose is a similar, emotion provoking, symbol for today’s Black Americans. A “white” tree draped with nooses?
Here are a couple of links to lynching of blacks. Did the white kids not rip the scabs from healing wounds? If one is Black, how does he/she ignore stuff like this?
http://www.umass.edu/complit/aclanet/ACLAText/USLynch.html
Here’s a more graphic link – not pretty.
http://www.liu.edu/cwis/cwp/library/africa...00/lynching.htm
QUOTE(BoF @ Sep 25 2007, 09:38 AM)
Did the white kids not rip the scabs from healing wounds? If one is Black, how does he/she ignore stuff like this?
http://www.umass.edu/complit/aclanet/ACLAText/USLynch.html
Here’s a more graphic link – not pretty.
http://www.liu.edu/cwis/cwp/library/africa...00/lynching.htm
http://www.umass.edu/complit/aclanet/ACLAText/USLynch.html
Here’s a more graphic link – not pretty.
http://www.liu.edu/cwis/cwp/library/africa...00/lynching.htm
Umm... I see what you're saying, but respectfully disagree. These kids know nothing of the civil rights movement, aren't subject to discrimination, and probably have little or no understanding of real lynchings. It's S. Louisiana for God's sake. Maybe in their town they're not the majority, but in the state and in their region, they probably are. Take a road trip BOF. Go from Shreveport, to Monroe, on down to Lafayette, and on to Houma, etc. Spend some time. You'll begin to understand the disconnect I've just mentioned. Sadly, I doubt most teenage kids of black heritage have any true idea what you're talkin' about.
I believe that this incident was basically incited by racial tension and sparked a power struggle.
I grew up in schools that included racial tension, particularly when I had classes with the general population (ie Gym, etc). I understand that often times it's a dual edged sword, and that never is that behavior acceptable or positive. It usually created a powder keg....which in this case exploded. We had fights in school, and even a fight in the locker room before a football playoff game (that sent one kid to the hospital). I've been there, and understand that often times it's a socio-economic nightmare to put kids from basically prejudiced families that have a couple bucks in their pocket with poorer black kids that have no qualms about resorting to violence and asserting their "power" or "dominance".
What I'd love to hear was how they'd responded to the racism prior to the beating. I'd love to know what statements were made, what the dynamic of the school and its interactions were prior to this incident. Why did it happen in the first place? How come a noose in a tree wasn't national news prior to that? (for God's sake... Sean Bell was, and he was shot by a black cop). There HAD to be black faculty members in Jena. Black people that had telephones and/or cameras. Why wasn't this news in any form until now?
I just don't think that we have the whole story here. I'm inferring that most likely there are pieces that both sides would like to forget or turn a blind eye to.
It's not ok for racist remarks to be said/acted upon, nor is it ok to assault someone. However- assault is illegal, and freedom of speech isn't. I've seen it go both ways, but I hate that there are such strong feelings on both sides that don't have much or anything to do with some poor kids stuck in jail. I believe in my gut that this boils down to the notion of "black people really ARE downtrodden and this proves it".
It doesn't. It really doesn't. What it does prove is that kids acting badly can turn adults into people that act just as badly. I doubt that there are black people in Jena telling their kids "see- jumping a kid and beating him into oblivion will land you in jail", or white people telilng their kids "look- racism isn't ok and making those statements might land you in the hospital".
Instead, we get a judge standing his ground and Al Sharpton talking about whatever crud he talks about.
BoF, you seem to be defending this assault. Am I misunderstanding, or are you saying that this is OK, as long as it was "provoked" by a history of lynching and crude racist taunts? Sounds like you are endorsing vigilante justice for hate crimes.
Quick edit - I note that you said "people don't need to be beaten up" but when you said "If one is Black, how does he/she ignore stuff like this?" I was wondering what you were thinking.
Quick edit - I note that you said "people don't need to be beaten up" but when you said "If one is Black, how does he/she ignore stuff like this?" I was wondering what you were thinking.
QUOTE
"When I heard a black boy say something to Justin, I turned my head and I saw somebody hit Justin," one student wrote in a statement. "He fell in between the gym door and the concrete barricade. I saw Robert Bailey kneel down and punch Justin in the head. ... Then Carwin Jones kicked him in the head. ... Theo Shaw tried to kick him so I pushed Theo Shaw down. I also saw Mychal Bell standing over him."
Phrases like "stomped him badly," "stepped on his face," "knocked out cold on the ground," and "slammed his head on the concrete beam" were used by the students in their statements.
...
"I wasn't involved," he said. "He got hit once, fell to the ground, and that was the end. Everyone just ran up when someone yelled fight, and it seemed like he was getting kicked."
Phrases like "stomped him badly," "stepped on his face," "knocked out cold on the ground," and "slammed his head on the concrete beam" were used by the students in their statements.
...
"I wasn't involved," he said. "He got hit once, fell to the ground, and that was the end. Everyone just ran up when someone yelled fight, and it seemed like he was getting kicked."
QUOTE(carlitoswhey @ Sep 25 2007, 10:33 AM)
BoF, you seem to be defending this assault. Am I misunderstanding, or are you saying that this is OK, as long as it was "provoked" by a history of lynching and crude racist taunts? Sounds like you are endorsing vigilante justice for hate crimes.
Quick edit - I note that you said "people don't need to be beaten up" but when you said "If one is Black, how does he/she ignore stuff like this?" I was wondering what you were thinking.
Quick edit - I note that you said "people don't need to be beaten up" but when you said "If one is Black, how does he/she ignore stuff like this?" I was wondering what you were thinking.
QUOTE
"When I heard a black boy say something to Justin, I turned my head and I saw somebody hit Justin," one student wrote in a statement. "He fell in between the gym door and the concrete barricade. I saw Robert Bailey kneel down and punch Justin in the head. ... Then Carwin Jones kicked him in the head. ... Theo Shaw tried to kick him so I pushed Theo Shaw down. I also saw Mychal Bell standing over him."
Phrases like "stomped him badly," "stepped on his face," "knocked out cold on the ground," and "slammed his head on the concrete beam" were used by the students in their statements.
...
"I wasn't involved," he said. "He got hit once, fell to the ground, and that was the end. Everyone just ran up when someone yelled fight, and it seemed like he was getting kicked."
Phrases like "stomped him badly," "stepped on his face," "knocked out cold on the ground," and "slammed his head on the concrete beam" were used by the students in their statements.
...
"I wasn't involved," he said. "He got hit once, fell to the ground, and that was the end. Everyone just ran up when someone yelled fight, and it seemed like he was getting kicked."
I did say people shouldn't be beaten up. While I'm not advocating violernce, I am saying that we shouldn't be surprised, given the emotional and historical connotation of the noose, that this happened.
I would also think this might well be a mitigating factor for the accused. Note, mitigation and justification are two different things.
Your post carlitoswheyis indicativative of attempts to push people to either the right or left. Truth may well be somewhere in the middle - territory I know is foreign to you.
QUOTE(BoF @ Sep 25 2007, 09:52 AM)
I did say people shouldn't be beaten up. While I'm not advocating violernce, I am saying that we shouldn't be surprised, given the emotional and historical connotation of the noose, that this happened.
I would also think this might well be a mitigating factor for the accused. Note, mitigation and justification are two different things.
Your post carlitoswheyis indicativative of attempts to push people to either the right or left. Truth may well be somewhere in the middle - territory I know is foreign to you.
I would also think this might well be a mitigating factor for the accused. Note, mitigation and justification are two different things.
Your post carlitoswheyis indicativative of attempts to push people to either the right or left. Truth may well be somewhere in the middle - territory I know is foreign to you.
Not at all. I think that the white racist activity is reprehensible, and I think that such a serious assault is grounds for criminal prosecution. I am not surprised either, given that (as I mentioned earlier) we had nearly the same stuff happening in my high school. It is not pretty when you're in it, and tempers already run high for male teens. A potent mix.
QUOTE(Grendel72 @ Sep 24 2007, 09:04 PM)
The nooses were a part of a long stream of intimidation of blacks that were condoned by authorities, not the sole item.
Yeah, because we know that in the present - TWO THOUSAND AND SEVEN - somebody's gonna get a lynching! It should be obvious to anybody that a noose is direct evidence in this day and age that somebody will be lynched and condoned by the authorities.
I'm sorry, but 1930 called and wants it's racial hysteria back.
QUOTE(carlitoswhey @ Sep 25 2007, 11:20 AM)
Not at all. I think that the white racist activity is reprehensible, and I think that such a serious assault is grounds for criminal prosecution. I am not surprised either, given that (as I mentioned earlier) we had nearly the same stuff happening in my high school. It is not pretty when you're in it, and tempers already run high for male teens. A potent mix.
I'll be sixty-five tomorrow, carlitoswhey. I played a lot of baseball until I was about 16, and I still remember the almost daily fights, especially when adults were not supervising - you know peer organized sandlot games. I was involved in some of these brawls.
None of the fights were racial in nature - white/white - and fortunately, very fortunately - no one got seriously hurt.
The tradition of teen males fighting and the testosterone factor are yet two more mitigating factors, in Bell's favor.
I'm not saying Bell did nothing wrong, but there are mitigating factors in his favor and he certainly doesn't need to be tried as an adult.
QUOTE(DaytonRocker @ Sep 25 2007, 12:28 PM)
QUOTE(Grendel72 @ Sep 24 2007, 09:04 PM)
The nooses were a part of a long stream of intimidation of blacks that were condoned by authorities, not the sole item.
Yeah, because we know that in the present - TWO THOUSAND AND SEVEN - somebody's gonna get a lynching! It should be obvious to anybody that a noose is direct evidence in this day and age that somebody will be lynched and condoned by the authorities.
I'm sorry, but 1930 called and wants it's racial hysteria back.
I don't think the hilarious white students should face jail time. I doubt the FBI or any federal agency will take a look. Even if one does there's still the matter of a district attorney pressing hate crime charges. This administration has gutted and demoralized the DoJ's Civil Rights Division. It surprises me that anyone assumes they'll take action in Jena.
As far as 1930, please, save it. Just because I support free speech doesn't mean I have to act surprised that a noose in the South would outrage people and belittle them for their feelings.
Does anyone have pictures of the beat up white kid? Different articles tell different stories.
QUOTE(Lesly @ Sep 25 2007, 01:23 PM)
QUOTE(DaytonRocker @ Sep 25 2007, 12:28 PM)
QUOTE(Grendel72 @ Sep 24 2007, 09:04 PM)
The nooses were a part of a long stream of intimidation of blacks that were condoned by authorities, not the sole item.
Yeah, because we know that in the present - TWO THOUSAND AND SEVEN - somebody's gonna get a lynching! It should be obvious to anybody that a noose is direct evidence in this day and age that somebody will be lynched and condoned by the authorities.
I'm sorry, but 1930 called and wants it's racial hysteria back.
I don't think the hilarious white students should face jail time. I doubt the FBI or any federal agency will take a look. Even if one does there's still the matter of a district attorney pressing hate crime charges. This administration has gutted and demoralized the DoJ's Civil Rights Division. It surprises me that anyone assumes they'll take action in Jena.
As far as 1930, please, save it. Just because I support free speech doesn't mean I have to act surprised that a noose in the South would outrage people and belittle them for their feelings.
Does anyone have pictures of the beat up white kid? Different articles tell different stories.
Of the dozens of statements taken on the day of the assault, none referenced the nooses. Those nooses were laughed at and played with by black students and white students alike while they hung there. It simply was not a motivation in this assault.
The US Department of Justice did in fact investigate the noose incident and determined it did not meet the standards of a hate crime. The conclusion was that it did not meet the standards of a hate crime because it was committed by a minor. So much for the incorrect conclusion that Bush is somehow partially responsible for this. Keep going on about how lenient the sentence was--it has widely been incorrectly stated as a three day suspension when in fact the punishment was much, much harsher. I've already posted those corrections even before these misleading statements were repeated again here on
.Now, direct insults/taunts may have been involved. I saw an interview with one kid who said the victim used the N word. That may indeed be a mitigating circumstance for starting a fight. But what happened here was beyond a "schoolyard brawl". It was a beatdown and a continued vicious assault on a defenseless student. Using the N word, as a teen, ain't enough to get your head stomped in.
QUOTE(BoF)
There are some things that are so embedded in a group’s history that they cannot be erased and and the re emergence of such symbols is like ripping a scab off a wound. How do Jews look at swastikas? Can they see one some punk has scribbled on a bathroom wall without thinking of the horrors their ancestors endured at places like Auschwitz-Birkenau, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor, and Treblinka?
This line of reasoning is simply not valid. Are neo-Nazis in Germany beaten half to death by Jews? If a group of Jews jumped Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad outside of Columbia yesterday, would they have been justified? After all, it is embedded in their group's history...
QUOTE(Amlord @ Sep 25 2007, 12:58 PM)
Now, direct insults/taunts may have been involved. I saw an interview with one kid who said the victim used the N word. That may indeed be a mitigating circumstance for starting a fight. But what happened here was beyond a "schoolyard brawl". It was a beatdown and a continued vicious assault on a defenseless student. Using the N word, as a teen, ain't enough to get your head stomped in.
Oh but it is Amlord, as you know, the 16 year old kid then thought of Jim Crow laws, it reminded him of slavery and his ancestors on the ships, and of course of the fact that his grandpa had to ride on the back of the bus. Never forget that he's particularly aware of the racist history of America, because MTV, NBA games, and X Box definitely puts things in historical perspective for 16 yr old kids! HA!
The fact is that this was a group of boys who got out of control, and a white kid was on the ground... so it was a free-for-all.
I find it nearly comical that people speak of 'history' and other things that never went through their heads. NEWSFLASH- maybe some of y'all lived during that era. They didn't. They are concerned about the Saints score, how to get the new pair of Nikes, and finding a date for Saturday night. They're 16.
Attempted murder and never-ending jail time? I dunno if that's appropriate. I don't know that even locking them up for any extended period of time is practical. Teach them a lesson. Put them in Angola for 2 weeks. Make them clean up post-Katrina New Orleans for a few days. Something positive and life-changing.
QUOTE(BoF @ Sep 25 2007, 11:07 AM)
I'm not saying Bell did nothing wrong, but there are mitigating factors in his favor and he certainly doesn't need to be tried as an adult.
I have never understood this. Maybe someone can explain, but how can you try a child "as an adult?" If I commit a crime, can the prosecutor try me as ... a child? a woman? a masked Mexican wrestler? I really, really don't get this. Try someone as they are, not as they will be or as you want them to be. This is the biggest perversion of our judicial system I can fathom.
QUOTE(Lesly @ Sep 25 2007, 11:23 AM)
Does anyone have pictures of the beat up white kid? Different articles tell different stories.
Here is the one that I have seen. Here is a backup location. He looks pretty beat up to me....you can still kind of see the blood coming out of his right ear.
QUOTE(carlitoswhey @ Sep 25 2007, 02:50 PM)
QUOTE(Lesly @ Sep 25 2007, 11:23 AM)
Does anyone have pictures of the beat up white kid? Different articles tell different stories.
Here is the one that I have seen. Here is a backup location. He looks pretty beat up to me....you can still kind of see the blood coming out of his right ear.
I dunno... I've had, given and seen a lot worse than that in fist fight. The fact that he was jumped by multiple people is the part that makes my teeth tingle.
Before we set Mychal Bell free you might want to consider why the Prosecutor decided charge him as an adult and go for stiffer sentences. He'd had three assault charges in two years leading up to this event. Clearly Juvi wasn't getting through to this kid.
QUOTE(Amlord @ Sep 25 2007, 01:58 PM)
Of the dozens of statements taken on the day of the assault, none referenced the nooses.
What are you suggesting here?
QUOTE(Amlord @ Sep 25 2007, 01:58 PM)
Those nooses were laughed at and played with by black students and white students alike while they hung there. It simply was not a motivation in this assault.
Nor have I said it was. Nor have I claimed the nooses are the cause of the beating by simply asking for pictures.
QUOTE(Amlord @ Sep 25 2007, 01:58 PM)
The US Department of Justice did in fact investigate the noose incident and determined it did not meet the standards of a hate crime. The conclusion was that it did not meet the standards of a hate crime because it was committed by a minor.
I'm looking at Title 18, Part I, Chapter 13, Section 245. There's no age distinction. Punishment for hate crime violations committed by minors can be transferred to parents in some cases, though I doubt that applies here. Furthermore the feds can charge minors as adults.
Where's the DoJ's Jena hate crime investigation? I can't Google it and there's nothing on the DoJ's site about a press release, although I did run into this court document against Jena Juvenile Justice Center. I read about Lewis Chapman, Donald Washington and Carmelita Freeman holding a forum in Jena. Is that what passes for an investigation these days? During the forum Washington, a black US attorney, called the nooses a prank. He can laugh all he likes but he can't determine intent, nor can we squeeze an investigation from his sense of humor.
QUOTE(Amlord @ Sep 25 2007, 01:58 PM)
So much for the incorrect conclusion that Bush is somehow partially responsible for this.
Why not? This is the administration that cries executive order when it wants to break the law, and falsely claims it lacks the authority to do something about corporate theft when it doesn't want to enforce the law.
QUOTE(Amlord @ Sep 25 2007, 01:58 PM)
Keep going on about how lenient the sentence was—it has widely been incorrectly stated as a three day suspension when in fact the punishment was much, much harsher. I've already posted those corrections even before these misleading statements were repeated again here on .
.At this point I have to ask, whom are you having an argument with, Amlord?
QUOTE(Amlord @ Sep 25 2007, 01:58 PM)
Now, direct insults/taunts may have been involved. I saw an interview with one kid who said the victim used the N word. That may indeed be a mitigating circumstance for starting a fight.
No it isn't. I can't believe you and BoF think any kid should expect getting popped in the mouth and Carlitos agrees with you. Youth and stupidity may go hand in hand, but if the Y chromosome is a mitigating factor shouldn't DR expect some leniency when he cracks some skulls at a flag-burning protest? I'm not saying he's hit protestors but I remember on more than one occasion where he's expressed the desire to get ugly concerning this expression. Should teenage female brawlers expect harsher punishment for acting against "nature"? I don't want to turn this into a gender argument but this line of "reasoning" is ridiculous.
QUOTE(carlitoswhey @ Sep 25 2007, 02:50 PM)
QUOTE(Lesly @ Sep 25 2007, 11:23 AM)
Does anyone have pictures of the beat up white kid? Different articles tell different stories.
Here is the one that I have seen. Here is a backup location. He looks pretty beat up to me....you can still kind of see the blood coming out of his right ear.
Going by reports I've read I expected to see worse. Much worse. Like disfiguring bad. Maybe UFC is desensitizing me. Too bad we can't look at his medical records.
Trying to look at the case of assault objectively- three prior assaults- in any case, for a minor, now of that age, and an assault this serious- would be charged as an adult by any competent DA. The wounds, the DA would go for attempted murder, let the guy plea down to Assault/Battery in the first- mandatory minimum in jal 5 years, eligible for parole in 3, provided he does all "good" time. In any "normal" case- no matter the mitigating factors BOF, for an assault of that nature- the kid should reasonably be expected to have a felony on his record and spending 3 years in adult jail, considering his priors.
the rest would be a different story- if they had no priors. No priors- they can expect to spend a year or less in jail, and have a felony on thier record.
This is all reasonable, for black or whites, with a dispassionate look at the crime and the injuries to the victim.
All that being said- BD- what a load of fecal material you spread here. Anything "controversial" can be displayed as art- such as *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** christ- but it has to be set up as art prior- not to intimidate others with a hanging. Maing terroristic threats and bad art are two completely different animals and you know it.
Aveans- ya, LA is pretty black, was there pretty recently myself. Seems like Jim Crow was alive and well when I was there, only about two years ago. Seems that the old racist redneck has been mostly forced to go underground to me- if they weren't afraid of prosecution- I bet lynchings would start again tomorow.
the rest would be a different story- if they had no priors. No priors- they can expect to spend a year or less in jail, and have a felony on thier record.
This is all reasonable, for black or whites, with a dispassionate look at the crime and the injuries to the victim.
All that being said- BD- what a load of fecal material you spread here. Anything "controversial" can be displayed as art- such as *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** christ- but it has to be set up as art prior- not to intimidate others with a hanging. Maing terroristic threats and bad art are two completely different animals and you know it.
Aveans- ya, LA is pretty black, was there pretty recently myself. Seems like Jim Crow was alive and well when I was there, only about two years ago. Seems that the old racist redneck has been mostly forced to go underground to me- if they weren't afraid of prosecution- I bet lynchings would start again tomorow.
QUOTE
The kid who was beaten was taunting the group about a previously ignored assault some white students had made on black kids.
Not if the article cited above is right. Where is it documented?
And lets remember that even though the black kid got too stiff a sentence he was not charged with a hate crime and imo he could have been.
“There was no “schoolyard fight” as a result of nooses being hung on a whites-only tree.
Justin Barker, the white victim, was cold-cocked from behind, knocked unconscious and stomped by six black athletes.”
A black U.S. attorney, Don Washington, investigated the “Jena Six” case and concluded that the attack on Barker had absolutely nothing to do with the noose-hanging incident three months before. The nooses and two off-campus incidents were tied to Barker’s assault by people wanting to gain sympathy for the “Jena Six” in reaction to Walters’ extreme charges of attempted murder.
It’s rarely mentioned that Bell was already on probation for assault when he was accused of participating in Barker’s attack. And it’s never mentioned that white people in the “racist” town of Jena provided Bell support and protected his football career long before Jesse, Al, Bell’s father and all the others took a sincere interest in Mychal Bell.
Well, I finally found an article confirming a Justice investigation. It leaves room for interpretation, and that means criticism with how the feds are handling it. And with that I have to run.
There is no link between the nooses hung by white students outside a Louisiana high school and the alleged beating of a white student by black teens, according to the U.S. attorney who reviewed investigations into the incidents.
The events, though likely symptoms of racial tension, were separate incidents, said Donald Washington, U.S. attorney for the Western District of Louisiana.
Washington said FBI agents who went to Jena in September to investigate the noose report, and other federal officials who examined what happened, concluded it "had all the markings of a hate crime."
The incident wasn't prosecuted as such because it didn't meet the federal standards required for the teens to be certified as adults, Washington said. A court makes the final decision on whether to drop their juvenile status.
There is no link between the nooses hung by white students outside a Louisiana high school and the alleged beating of a white student by black teens, according to the U.S. attorney who reviewed investigations into the incidents.
The events, though likely symptoms of racial tension, were separate incidents, said Donald Washington, U.S. attorney for the Western District of Louisiana.
Washington said FBI agents who went to Jena in September to investigate the noose report, and other federal officials who examined what happened, concluded it "had all the markings of a hate crime."
The incident wasn't prosecuted as such because it didn't meet the federal standards required for the teens to be certified as adults, Washington said. A court makes the final decision on whether to drop their juvenile status.
Lesly- I am a bit confused over your argument here-
I am not understanding what facts we are having a problem with- seriously
1) The kid with priors was already on probation for assault charges, actually 3 priors, and it appears he had preferential treatment due to his jock status already
2) They beat this kid sensless- they were lucky they were not up on murder charges.
Is he a thug or isn't he, In your honest opinion?
I am not understanding what facts we are having a problem with- seriously
1) The kid with priors was already on probation for assault charges, actually 3 priors, and it appears he had preferential treatment due to his jock status already
2) They beat this kid sensless- they were lucky they were not up on murder charges.
Is he a thug or isn't he, In your honest opinion?
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Sep 25 2007, 09:39 PM)
Is he a thug or isn't he, in your honest opinion?
He wasn't charged with thug. He's not going to be retried for thug. How would I know?
On a serious note I don't think he should be tried as an adult (thug). Being locked up with hardened criminals isn't going to wise him up.I haven't said he shouldn't be tried for anything, but that's what's been going on since this story broke; people taking sides, people making assumptions, accounts of events varying wildly, and people focusing on snippets that support their cause. I don't support hate crime legislation but I think there's more to this business than what our knavish DoJ has volunteered. Nothing but pranks to see here? Puh-leese.
I agree lesley- but, okay- is it appropriate to take these incidents seperately- or should they be linked?
Okay- taking the noose incident seperately- and if the perps are known- what should be done, now, not what should have been done earlier- but done NOW that it is on the public stage.
I don't know about the other 5, but we DO know that the kid had three priors- and if there is one thing I can't stand- is preferential treatment for criminals just because they can play a child's game well (in this case, football)-
What do you think would be the appropriate punishment for a four time perp? If this kid has not learned the other three times, it has been my experiance that this kid is incorrigible, and locking him up for life will probably prevent him from some innocent having to be harmed in the future. Sometimes it takes twice- but after three times, yu are going to have a very, very long list of victims before this guy gets locked up for life.
Okay- taking the noose incident seperately- and if the perps are known- what should be done, now, not what should have been done earlier- but done NOW that it is on the public stage.
I don't know about the other 5, but we DO know that the kid had three priors- and if there is one thing I can't stand- is preferential treatment for criminals just because they can play a child's game well (in this case, football)-
What do you think would be the appropriate punishment for a four time perp? If this kid has not learned the other three times, it has been my experiance that this kid is incorrigible, and locking him up for life will probably prevent him from some innocent having to be harmed in the future. Sometimes it takes twice- but after three times, yu are going to have a very, very long list of victims before this guy gets locked up for life.
I'm going by the Wiki's Jena Six article, so bear with me if I'm not exactly right on the details. I'm not sure how students can be "isolated" at an alternative school, but two weeks suspension was like a vacation in high school to me. However, I don't agree with an expulsion either. That might be as helpful as sticking Bell in a state pen. If there is some middle ground for punishment, perhaps giving the noose kids community service, that would be better.
The other five should be charged with something if they joined Bell, depending on how much they participated, whether it was premeditated, etc. as juveniles.
If there's preferential treatment going on in regards to athletic ability I think fault lies with the school, not the courts. In this article Coach Fowler had a policy of punishing kids that got into trouble, but soon decided not to do anything about Bell's criminal history, just like the school. If the school hoped the season could smooth over issues it miscalculated.
From what I've read it sounds like Bell was released into adult custody for the duration of his probation and he wasn't really looked after, that's why his father, a minister and other people asked Judge Mauffray to reduce bail and turn Bell into their custody. Mauffray declined either because, as he read state statute, he couldn't given Bell's criminal/juvee history and/or it was reasonable to assume Bell could commit another crime while waiting for the retrial. I agree with either reasoning. Besides, white supremacist nuts posted their information, including Bell's, online.
Louisiana has three-strikes laws on the books. TSLs are loosely defined and can count for anything as minor as a misdemeanor, so Bell wouldn't have to beat up three people as an adult to be locked up for life. (TSLs are out of control, imo. A pizza thief shouldn't be subject to a strike.)
The other five should be charged with something if they joined Bell, depending on how much they participated, whether it was premeditated, etc. as juveniles.
If there's preferential treatment going on in regards to athletic ability I think fault lies with the school, not the courts. In this article Coach Fowler had a policy of punishing kids that got into trouble, but soon decided not to do anything about Bell's criminal history, just like the school. If the school hoped the season could smooth over issues it miscalculated.
From what I've read it sounds like Bell was released into adult custody for the duration of his probation and he wasn't really looked after, that's why his father, a minister and other people asked Judge Mauffray to reduce bail and turn Bell into their custody. Mauffray declined either because, as he read state statute, he couldn't given Bell's criminal/juvee history and/or it was reasonable to assume Bell could commit another crime while waiting for the retrial. I agree with either reasoning. Besides, white supremacist nuts posted their information, including Bell's, online.
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Sep 25 2007, 10:24 PM)
Sometimes it takes twice—but after three times, you are going to have a very, very long list of victims before this guy gets locked up for life.
Louisiana has three-strikes laws on the books. TSLs are loosely defined and can count for anything as minor as a misdemeanor, so Bell wouldn't have to beat up three people as an adult to be locked up for life. (TSLs are out of control, imo. A pizza thief shouldn't be subject to a strike.)
Actually- the "pizza thief" is the perfect person to lock away for life and never be let out- Williams became eligible for the third strike sentence because of his lengthy criminal history. His original sentence of 25 years to life prompted political activists to push for a wholesale revision of the law.
Pure crap- "lengthy criminal history"- the perfect example of a career criminal, with a long list of victims. Those dudes should NEVER see the light of day, and hard labor and pain fill the end of thier miserable lives.
But you never did say- once again- Bell, criminal history, no remorse for his behaviors, no changing of behaviors- what is the appropriate sentence of a four time violent offender? How many victims does it take before you lock him up or kill him to keep the list from getting longer?
From your link, the "three strikes" law is working GREAT.
State statistics indicate that the third strikers in prison include 294 for murder; 34 for manslaughter; 1,408 for robbery; 356 for assault with a deadly weapon; 416 for other assaults or battery; 136 for rape; 241 for lewd act upon a child; 136 for other sex offenses; 83 for kidnapping; 776 for residential burglary; 288 for possession of drugs for sale; 191 for sale of drugs, 28 for manufacturing drugs; 356 for weapons-possession; and 25 for arson.
Pure crap- "lengthy criminal history"- the perfect example of a career criminal, with a long list of victims. Those dudes should NEVER see the light of day, and hard labor and pain fill the end of thier miserable lives.
But you never did say- once again- Bell, criminal history, no remorse for his behaviors, no changing of behaviors- what is the appropriate sentence of a four time violent offender? How many victims does it take before you lock him up or kill him to keep the list from getting longer?
From your link, the "three strikes" law is working GREAT.
State statistics indicate that the third strikers in prison include 294 for murder; 34 for manslaughter; 1,408 for robbery; 356 for assault with a deadly weapon; 416 for other assaults or battery; 136 for rape; 241 for lewd act upon a child; 136 for other sex offenses; 83 for kidnapping; 776 for residential burglary; 288 for possession of drugs for sale; 191 for sale of drugs, 28 for manufacturing drugs; 356 for weapons-possession; and 25 for arson.
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Sep 25 2007, 11:26 PM)
Actually—the "pizza thief" is the perfect person to lock away for life and never be let out—Williams became eligible for the third strike sentence because of his lengthy criminal history. His original sentence of 25 years to life prompted political activists to push for a wholesale revision of the law.
Read what I wrote—and didn't write—carefully. I said a pizza thief shouldn't get a strike. I'm sorry, but no matter what you've done in the past, taking a slice of pizza from kids like you're Mr. Burns doesn't mean a hardened criminal should face 25 years to life for that "heinous" crime. I'm a big dumb softy like that. I mean, if you want to send a message that murder and rape are bad don't put someone behind bars for the rest of their life for stealing a pizza.
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Sep 25 2007, 11:26 PM)
But you never did say—once again—Bell, criminal history, no remorse for his behaviors, no changing of behaviors—what is—he appropriate sentence of a four time violent offender? How many victims does it take before you lock him up or kill him to keep the list from getting longer?
Where do you get four time violent offender? He has two battery and two criminal damage to property convictions in this article. I can't tell by that article whether it was a Class A or B misdemeanor and whether the second battery conviction is a Class D felony (battery against the same person in the first conviction).
Battery is "the actual intentional striking of someone, with intent to harm, or in a 'rude and insolent manner' even if the injury is slight". You can be charged with battery for kicking a ball at another student in the playground nowadays for Chrissake, and arrested for writing OK on your desk. It's another overkill, a useless construct in our "tough on crime" culture.
Do you have access to Bell's juvee record? I doubt that much information is public so I think you're jumping to conclusions. I doubt he'd have kick-stomped somebody and been charged with simple battery, either. Furthermore how do you know Bell doesn't feel remorse (assuming his battery offenses were marginally bad)? Has he been given a chance to clean up his act? Adult supervision seems to have been lax and trying to make the public safe by jumping to conclusions about his juvee record doesn't help.
QUOTE(Lesly @ Sep 25 2007, 08:56 PM)
I'm going by the Wiki's Jena Six article, so bear with me if I'm not exactly right on the details. I'm not sure how students can be "isolated" at an alternative school, but two weeks suspension was like a vacation in high school to me. However, I don't agree with an expulsion either. That might be as helpful as sticking Bell in a state pen. If there is some middle ground for punishment, perhaps giving the noose kids community service, that would be better.
The other five should be charged with something if they joined Bell, depending on how much they participated, whether it was premeditated, etc. as juveniles.
The other five should be charged with something if they joined Bell, depending on how much they participated, whether it was premeditated, etc. as juveniles.
As noted, I agree wholeheartedly.
QUOTE(lesly)
Louisiana has three-strikes laws on the books. TSLs are loosely defined and can count for anything as minor as a misdemeanor, so Bell wouldn't have to beat up three people as an adult to be locked up for life. (TSLs are out of control, imo. A pizza thief shouldn't be subject to a strike.)
Nothing warms my heart like liberals citing urban myths as evidence.
The "pizza thief" did 6 years, not life, despite California's three strike law. Your link actually bolsters the case for 3 strikes laws, by noting that the exceptions usuallywork, as they did with the pizza thief.QUOTE(lesly's link)
In fact, the notorious “pizza thief” was a recipient of this discretion. [Jerry DeWayne] Williams, who was originally sentenced to an indeterminate life sentence, later had his sentence reduced to six years. Citing his nonviolent criminal history, lack of weapon use, and relatively minor third strike offense, the sentencing judge agreed to strike a prior conviction in order to promote the interest of justice.
QUOTE(lesly)
Read what I wrote—and didn't write—carefully. I said a pizza thief shouldn't get a strike. I'm sorry, but no matter what you've done in the past, taking a slice of pizza from kids like you're Mr. Burns doesn't mean a hardened criminal should face 25 years to life for that "heinous" crime. I'm a big dumb softy like that. I mean, if you want to send a message that murder and rape are bad don't put someone behind bars for the rest of their life for stealing a pizza.
Right, which is why this career petty-criminal got 6 years, not life.
QUOTE(CruisingRam @ Sep 25 2007, 04:11 PM)
All that being said- BD- what a load of fecal material you spread here. Anything "controversial" can be displayed as art- such as *** NOTICE: THIS WORD IS AGAINST THE RULES. FAILURE TO REMOVE IT WILL RESULT IN A STRIKE. *** christ- but it has to be set up as art prior- not to intimidate others with a hanging. Maing terroristic threats and bad art are two completely different animals and you know it.
Sorry, but I don't see these nooses as "terroristic threats", simply because they are to generalized. Had the nooses had some student's names on them, then "terroristic threats" might be a reasonable call. What's more interesting is your claim that only by calling something out as art (or any other free expression, but art serves well enough here) before the fact entitles it to protection.
You tell me just how far a student at that school is going to get doing an art project involving nooses if he lets anybody know about it beforehand?
White people who don't see racism anywhere are just as bad as Black people who see racism everywhere.
You don't have to be a bleeding-heart liberal to understand what those six young men did was indefensible and wrong. They should be punished for their actions. But the punishment should be in proportion to the crime and a second-degree murder charge where no weapon was used is all out of proportion.
Want to compare this with the Duke lacrosse team? The comparison that truly fits is a prosecutor abusing his power. "See this pen? I can end your lives with the stroke of a pen." Those are allegedly the remarks made by Reed Walters to an school assembly. Walters seems determined to turn his words into action by attempting to convict Mychal Bell of a charge that could put him in prison for 22 years.
Gary Younge in The Nation writes, "According to the Justice Department, blacks are almost three times as likely as whites to have their cars searched when they are pulled over and more than twice as likely to be arrested. They are more than five times as likely as whites to be sent to jail and are sentenced to 20 percent longer jail time."
Just a coincidence or a disturbing pattern of double and different standards at work? Justice for all, but harsher justice if you're unlucky enough to be born Black.
What the issue here is not whether or not the Jena 6 deserve to be punished (they do) or whether or not the prosecutor is overreaching (he is) or even whether nooses--two or three (as if it matters)--are inflammatory symbols of hatred (they are).
The issue is very simple. Does the punishment fit the crime? Clearly it does not and as such what is occurring in Jena demonstrates two irrefutable facts. First, is the gross disparity in sentencing and punishment for Black offenders compared to White offenders. Second, is the gross act of journalistic malpractice where a story like this that occurred in September 2006, doesn't get into the national spotlight until September 2007. The mainstream media is too obsessed with politicians trolling men's rooms for sex, O.J. Simpson's craziness and bleached blonds dying, in jail and melting down in public.
Jena is another inconvenient reminder that despite all the whining that race doesn't matter, it still very much does.
You don't have to be a bleeding-heart liberal to understand what those six young men did was indefensible and wrong. They should be punished for their actions. But the punishment should be in proportion to the crime and a second-degree murder charge where no weapon was used is all out of proportion.
Want to compare this with the Duke lacrosse team? The comparison that truly fits is a prosecutor abusing his power. "See this pen? I can end your lives with the stroke of a pen." Those are allegedly the remarks made by Reed Walters to an school assembly. Walters seems determined to turn his words into action by attempting to convict Mychal Bell of a charge that could put him in prison for 22 years.
Gary Younge in The Nation writes, "According to the Justice Department, blacks are almost three times as likely as whites to have their cars searched when they are pulled over and more than twice as likely to be arrested. They are more than five times as likely as whites to be sent to jail and are sentenced to 20 percent longer jail time."
Just a coincidence or a disturbing pattern of double and different standards at work? Justice for all, but harsher justice if you're unlucky enough to be born Black.
What the issue here is not whether or not the Jena 6 deserve to be punished (they do) or whether or not the prosecutor is overreaching (he is) or even whether nooses--two or three (as if it matters)--are inflammatory symbols of hatred (they are).
The issue is very simple. Does the punishment fit the crime? Clearly it does not and as such what is occurring in Jena demonstrates two irrefutable facts. First, is the gross disparity in sentencing and punishment for Black offenders compared to White offenders. Second, is the gross act of journalistic malpractice where a story like this that occurred in September 2006, doesn't get into the national spotlight until September 2007. The mainstream media is too obsessed with politicians trolling men's rooms for sex, O.J. Simpson's craziness and bleached blonds dying, in jail and melting down in public.
Jena is another inconvenient reminder that despite all the whining that race doesn't matter, it still very much does.
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