Story:

Getting Out - CS Indy 9/20/07

The kid signed up and turned hippie on the military. Now he's off to Canada, and it isn't certain what the Canadian government will do about this. Iraq isn't the same as Vietnam due to no draft (yet).

Questions:

Why should Canada refuse or accept US military deserters?

What responsibility do US military recruiters have in this situation?

How should the US military contract be changed and/or enforced?

What impact might a high school class in military contracts and service have?

Why should Canada refuse or accept US military deserters?

I'm not sure that I should tell Canada what to do. The policies of one sovereign nation to (pick one) deserters/refugees from another are a matter for that government of that nation to decide. There are practical diplomatic factors to consider as well. If the Canadian government accepts these American soldiers as refugees, its relationship with the American government will be strained. If it turns them over to the American military, its relationship with the governments of other nations might be strained. Keeping these soldiers in limbo may be the wisest course, even if it's not the best for the soldiers. (Personally, I hope Canada keeps them until they are officially declared Conscientious Objectors.)

What responsibility do US military recruiters have in this situation?

Well, it would be nice if recruiters told the exact truth about what people are getting into when they join the military. From the linked story:



I would also hope that military recruiters would tell the young people they encounterthat joining up is a huge decision, that will change the rest of their life. It should never be taken lightly. It's fair that they should mention the benefits that military service offers, but they should also be honest about the dangers and the sacrifices that go along with it.

How should the US military contract be changed and/or enforced?

I'm not aware of the details of the current military contract when one signs up, so I'll just say that the recruit should be fully informed of everything that military service entails, good and bad.

What impact might a high school class in military contracts and service have?


I'm not sure what you mean here. Something like "Military 101: What Will Happen After You Join Up"? I'm not sure an entire class is necessary, and I'd worry about such a thing being distorted into an advertisement for the military rather than an objective source of information. It would be nice, however, if young people, at a very difficult and confusing time in their lives, could be given accurate information about military service. Responsible, informed behavior isn't limited to preventing teen pregnancy. Maybe it can prevent a few teens from finding themselves in a place where they have no reason to be.

You've got the idea. I had two older brothers who joined up and they let me know the nitty-gritty of it all. I'm going on the assumption that the Military 101 class would have an unbiased instructor, maybe visits from local recruiters, contract analysis and pros/cons of military service. Perhaps debates would be cool too.

The impact might be an increase in military staffing or decrease. I don't know, but with a life decision this important, I think it should be part of high school curriculum. Make it part of the overall civics program (if one exists).

Alternatively, put it into community college. Some high schools let the students take college classes instead of the less challenging regular courses, and those who graduate and then consider the military can take the course too.

I don't think there's any lack of material to cover for a full semester course. Just analyzing contracts will involve the several branches of service and will likely need review by a lawyer. How one's career might develop in the military is another very broad and deep subject. The advantage of designing such a course is that the military has more solid rules than private enterprise.

The social side of the military should be covered too. I'm not sure, but I bet there are texts available on the subject.

It looks to me that McCall went into the military with eyes tightly clamped shut. He did not know enough about himself to make the decision wisely and was oblivious to the principles of marketing, i.e., the art of lying straight-faced. A part of Military 101 should then be how to make career choices. I know for sure there's a whole bookshelf of texts on this subject.

Mcall is in an unenviable position; he doesn't want to fight, and he was mislead into going to war. I'll agree with that.

But...he did get paid, didn;t he? He signed up for the army, right? In your article, it states that he is trying to register as a "conscientious objector", and that's great. Really, good for him! Yet...under current W-1 laws, that doesn;t mean he can just skip out of the army. He's still required to do work of "National Importance", not frolic off to experience the delighful, and whimsical joys of our northern sister country.

He was paid ten-thousand dollars, after all. He has to earn it somehow. Let him fight fires, or help transport medical supplies! From what i can see of it, he's just holed up in some cozy Canadian bar, giving interviews to any scandal-hungry reporter that wants one. That's not exactly "Nationally Important", now is it?

Personally, i think all the hemp-smoking has really warped his sense of reality. If he thinks he can just accept his wages, and then walk away...let the army have him.

Your emotive response is understood. However, this is not my story because I did not write it. It was also not written from an interview in a Canadian bar. You're assuming that the guy got ten grand on the barrel head, and I don't know if he did or not, and neither do you. That's not mentioned and would be in the contract. I highly doubt the ten grand was paid by check and probably has something to do with the GI bill, money for college after the service or something like that.

So, the point is to know the contract before you sign. The story shows a weakness in the all-voluntary military approach where both parties in the deal do not fully understand the agreement. The government has an upper hand, and to balance this out, I'm proposing education in high school or community college.

Whatever marijuana has to do with this is beside the point. I see that you don't like people who smoke pot. That's nice. Irrelevant too. You may or may not have noticed from the article that running to Canada is becoming a more common thing. Do you suppose pot makes people do this? I don't make that supposition, nor can I without any evidence.

So . . .

Why should Canada refuse or accept US military deserters?

What responsibility do US military recruiters have in this situation?

How should the US military contract be changed and/or enforced?

What impact might a high school class in military contracts and service have?

Why should Canada refuse or accept US military deserters?

I do not believe that Canada should accept military deserters. As members of NATO, a collective military alliance, our deserters are their deserters.

What responsibility do US military recruiters have in this situation?

Military recruiters should be obligated to tell the truth, that is all. They are not obligated to discourage people from joining, quite the opposite.

How should the US military contract be changed and/or enforced?

I don't see any reason to change it.

What impact might a high school class in military contracts and service have?

I don't know. It might actually encourage people to join, depending. I wouldn't object to such a class, so long as it is unbiased. Family of military members have a better grasp on exactly what to expect with military service, yet somehow they tend to sign on at higher rates than most.

Since he received a $20,000 enlistment bonus, it is very probable that he received half up front. It’s been awhile since I followed enlistment and re-enlistment bonuses, but that’s certainly the way it used to work.

Why should Canada refuse or accept US military deserters?

I think Mrs. P summed it up quite nicely when she said: I do not believe that Canada should accept military deserters. As members of NATO, a collective military alliance, our deserters are their deserters.
What responsibility do US military recruiters have in this situation?

It depends on if the recruiters were at fault. Certainly this kid thinks he was wronged, but we only have his side if the story, don’t we? Cav Scouts have about the same shortage rate as Infantry; the jobs really aren’t too much different at any rate. I can’t see the reason that a recruiter would lie to have a kid go Infantry instead of Scout. They don’t get bonus points……

How should the US military contract be changed and/or enforced?

I’ve never had an issue understanding the contract. Perhaps making the font larger for those who don’t like to read fine print?

What impact might a high school class in military contracts and service have?

I wouldn’t have a problem with a class, per se. It would have to be a voluntary, extra-curricular class….but probably nobody would be happy with whoever instructed it. Charges of bias from pro and anti military would abound.

Questions:

Why should Canada refuse or accept US military deserters?
Gee, what if this bozo's unit were deployed to Afghanistan rather than Iraq? How are the Canadian troops deployed to Afghanistan going to take it when their own country provides refuge to American deserters who should be in Afghanistan next to them?


Canada should refuse them.

What responsibility do US military recruiters have in this situation?
None. In some respects, military recruiting is just like getting concert tickets. Timing is everything. Wait and you miss the good seats. The kid waited too long. When you sign is when your bonus and job are specified.

How should the US military contract be changed and/or enforced?
It shouldn't be changed. The kid already had an out when he was sick. Having tested positive for dope multiple times, he's more concerned about getting a BCD or possible jail time, this "deserting" is a smokescreen to over his keester.

What impact might a high school class in military contracts and service have?
Wellll, I suppose it depends on who teaches it, eh? What would be far better would be a high school class in contracts, period.


How was he mislead into "going to war"? Even if you take the highly dubious position (see above) that he was snookered into the infantry, he wasn't mislead. Cav scout or infantry, both are combat positions.

I see the reasoning about being in NATO, and I'm wondering how, now that one must have a passport (or did that change?) to cross the border to Canada, McCall gets in. Maybe he hasn't.

No kidding, ten grand up front? That's news, and rather sobering. How many other outfits do that for untrained, unskilled personnel? I can't think of any.

My brother claimed to be guaranteed electronics training in the USAF during Vietnam when he upped for four years, and only one overseas tour. He got loadmaster and two tours, one in Turkey and another in Da Nang. That wasn't such a bad place to be in Vietnam, so I hear. Except for Tet. My brother had crummy luck. When he got back home, about a year later, he got this sweet plant electrician apprenticeship in the taconite mines, so I don't know what was up with the military mentality.

But I do know how sales pitches go in the civilian world. Can't trust 'em.

I also remember when the reserves were being called up, a lot of members raised a stink. But they weren't justified because of the contract, some clause that goes "duties as assigned for the rest of your life," something like that. I'm also wondering if it's exactly legal to have a non-negotiable contract. Or can a potential recruit negotiate? I dunno, might need a class if I were 18 or 19 and trying to make a decision.

Heh, I like the larger font idea in ALL contracts. But then I've got this magnifying glass . . .

Yeah, and my contracts come to me digitally. I can blow up the fonts myself.

Here's another thing -- how many potential recruits have a lawyer explain the contract in plain English? That's wise advice in business and why there are business lawyers. It kinda goes along the lines that defending oneself in court isn't a very good idea.

I get the take about the whole class concept being politically charged. I think that's a very good reason to create a class specifically on military contracts and service. Keep business contracts study separate for those looking to go into business. Regarding bias, well, we know that anybody selling anything has bias. The idea is to detect that bias and adjust decisions accordingly, which I would make part of the class.

However, the military service does offer advantages over civilian service. For example, the chances of getting snuffed on your way to work in a civilian job might be higher than doing a military job in Iraq. You don't have to worry so much about going homeless in the military, and if you have to, you know how to survive. There's no better food than roasted locusts dipped in wild honey, eh? Plus you pretty much expect the job to last. No surprise escorts out the door with your personal belongings box.

Overall, I know this: If people know ahead of time what they're getting themselves into, satisfaction with the deal improves. It works in business. I bet it'd work in the military too.

Why should Canada refuse or accept US military deserters?

As answered earlier, deserters are deserters. It is a volunteer Army. If he grew up around vets, he should have had a much better idea of what he was getting into when he joined. He could have joined the Coast Guard or chose one of the many jobs available in the Armed Services that is not Combat Arms. Yet he did. Period. "They were talking about shopoting people..." Guess what? That's the job. If he was that much of an avid reader, then he has no excuse what-so-ever.

What responsibility do US military recruiters have in this situation?

None. He had plenty of sources of information at his disposal to make an informed decision. That he changed his mind later has no impact on the recruiters and the responsibility is his alone.

Now, the article points out that he signed up for Cav and ended up Infantry. The only real difference there is how you get to the battlefield. Besides, being guaranteed training is not the same as being guaranteed you will pass that training. Again, the responsibility is his. He had an opportunity to be discharged legally, and did not take it. There are other ways to be discharged as well. His is not a case worthy of pity, but of derision.

How should the US military contract be changed and/or enforced?

None, in my opinion. I had zero doubts about what I was getting myself into when I joined. Everything was made clear to me before I swore in. I may not have liked it all, but I chose to accept those responsibilities. So did he. I can't say "I don't want to be a father anymore" and just walk away. Personal responsibility is like that.

What impact might a high school class in military contracts and service have?

I think that would be an outstanding idea, and should be part of the curriculum. Perhaps not a class in and of itself, but at least covered in Government or someplace equally applicable. Military service is a great idea, especially for those from the lower classes like myself. Not every job is combat related. For every civilian job, there is military training and experience available. Want to be an accountant? The Army will teach you how. Combat Arms is not for furture employment. It is for fighting for your country and the men beside you, regardless of any political debate. I think education on military service would greatly serve our nation's young people in a number of ways, and would help them to see opportunities that are available to everybody.

Wow, Rhus. You're really trolling through all these old debates, huh? More power to yah, feel free, but isn't if more fun to start topics of your own?

Meh, whatever. I'm a bit shy of this one, Author Musician managed to bloody my nose quite a bit with his heavy fists of logic and objective rhetoric. So, I think i'll pass, this time around.