Full Version: Does Kosovo have a right to exist?
Any you aware of the fact that the USA has set a deadline date (5 Dec) on the question of Kosovo? That there is an ongoing violence in Kosovo, the sort of thing that makes headline news when it happens in Israel but curiously doesn't seem very interesting when it happens in any other former Turkish province. 
Are you at all aware of the fact that Kosovo is the old heart land of Serbia but ever since it was annexed by the Ottoman Turks in 1455, its been a region contested with the invading Muslims and their descendents on one side and the Christian Europeans and their descendents on the other? Wikipedia has a short summary on the period here but I'd like to quote one passage in particular which goes along way to explaining why so much of the former Ottoman empire is such a mess today:
As a consequence of the US led military intervention in 1999 the Albanians have held the upper hand and have been ethnically cleansing Serbs and Christianity from the region.
Naturally the violence in Kosovoa is having a knock on effect in Serbia where HRW notes an increasing level of violence against ethnic minorities there.
Questions for the debate:
Does Kosovo have a right to exist as an independent body?,
Why is Kosovo apparently ignored compared to Israel?
Do you suppose a peaceful settlement can actually be found by 5th Dec?
Are you at all aware of the fact that Kosovo is the old heart land of Serbia but ever since it was annexed by the Ottoman Turks in 1455, its been a region contested with the invading Muslims and their descendents on one side and the Christian Europeans and their descendents on the other? Wikipedia has a short summary on the period here but I'd like to quote one passage in particular which goes along way to explaining why so much of the former Ottoman empire is such a mess today:
QUOTE(Wikipedia)
The Albanian people of the area also continued to intermittently struggle against occupation, yet suffered less reprisals at the hands of the Ottomans. Quite a few rose to prominence in the Turkish system, as administrators and as soldiers. During this time, many Albanians moved into Kosovo, filling in lands and houses vacated by fleeing Christians. Whilst relations between Serbs and Albanians were peaceful initially, this eventually deteriorated. At the outset, Christians and Muslim-converts celebrated each other's religious holidays together. However, later, many young Albanian Islamics participated in Turkish massacres of Christians, which in turn would be retaliated upon by the Serbs when they got the upper hand. This period has by many been identified as the catalyst of the subsequent deterioration of the relationship between Serbian and Albanian peoples.
So, five and a half centuries of inter-ethnic, inter-religious conflict has to be decided by December 5th. The Muslim Albanian majority wants independence from Serbia, where as the Christian Serbian minority wishes to remain Serbian. As a consequence of the US led military intervention in 1999 the Albanians have held the upper hand and have been ethnically cleansing Serbs and Christianity from the region.
QUOTE(HRW)
The future of minorities – to live at peace in Kosovo or not - is at the heart of status talks. Ironically it was a series of anti-minority attacks two years ago this month that seems to have set the wheels of decision in motion after years of paralysis.
Over two dreadful days in March 2004, some 50,000 people took to the streets across Kosovo in violent riots. Kosovo’s minorities bore the brunt of the violence, which left close to two dozen dead and 1,000 injured. More than 4,000 people were displaced. Hundreds of minority homes and churches, monasteries, and public buildings were burned in arson attacks.
The violence of March 2004 has largely been forgotten. Attention has shifted to the complex negotiations on Kosovo’s international status, with Albanians holding out for independence from Belgrade and Serbs insisting on autonomy within the same boundaries. The conventional wisdom holds that March 2004 is a chapter of the past - something nasty, but taken care of.
In reality, the violence of those 48 hours is far from resolved. Without addressing its legacy - the usual cycle of impunity - Kosovo cannot move forward. The events of March 2004 were characterized as a wake-up call for the international community and to Kosovo’s Albanian leadership. March 2004 was a test of their will to bring criminals to justice and to progress towards real co-existence for Kosovo’s fractured communities.
Link.Over two dreadful days in March 2004, some 50,000 people took to the streets across Kosovo in violent riots. Kosovo’s minorities bore the brunt of the violence, which left close to two dozen dead and 1,000 injured. More than 4,000 people were displaced. Hundreds of minority homes and churches, monasteries, and public buildings were burned in arson attacks.
The violence of March 2004 has largely been forgotten. Attention has shifted to the complex negotiations on Kosovo’s international status, with Albanians holding out for independence from Belgrade and Serbs insisting on autonomy within the same boundaries. The conventional wisdom holds that March 2004 is a chapter of the past - something nasty, but taken care of.
In reality, the violence of those 48 hours is far from resolved. Without addressing its legacy - the usual cycle of impunity - Kosovo cannot move forward. The events of March 2004 were characterized as a wake-up call for the international community and to Kosovo’s Albanian leadership. March 2004 was a test of their will to bring criminals to justice and to progress towards real co-existence for Kosovo’s fractured communities.
Naturally the violence in Kosovoa is having a knock on effect in Serbia where HRW notes an increasing level of violence against ethnic minorities there.
Questions for the debate:
Does Kosovo have a right to exist as an independent body?,
Why is Kosovo apparently ignored compared to Israel?
Do you suppose a peaceful settlement can actually be found by 5th Dec?
Does Kosovo have a right to exist as an independent body?,
Yes, so does Israel. It's called self-determination and is a key principle of international law.
Why is Kosovo apparently ignored compared to Israel?
Ignored by whom? What parallel are you trying to draw? Surely you can't be suggesting that it's hypocritical of Muslim governments to condemn Israel and deny it's right to exist yet turn a blind eye to Kosovo? Of course it is - is your next thread going to investigate the toilet habits of the Ursidae?
Given that none of the ones that have formally denied Israel's right to exist (a shorter list than those which might think that privately - limited, I think, to Iran) are what anyone sane would describe as peaceful, stable and democratic, why should I care what they think?
Do you suppose a peaceful settlement can actually be found by 5th Dec?
I doubt it - according to your own links, the Albanians and Serbs have been hacking away at one another for at least the last 500 years. I don't imagine that they'll suddenly stop dead (no pun intended) just because they have their own government. (Incidentally this is the only real parallel I see with Israel - the conflict will only end when the peoples involved decide that they want it to end, and not before.)
Yes, so does Israel. It's called self-determination and is a key principle of international law.
Why is Kosovo apparently ignored compared to Israel?
Ignored by whom? What parallel are you trying to draw? Surely you can't be suggesting that it's hypocritical of Muslim governments to condemn Israel and deny it's right to exist yet turn a blind eye to Kosovo? Of course it is - is your next thread going to investigate the toilet habits of the Ursidae?
Given that none of the ones that have formally denied Israel's right to exist (a shorter list than those which might think that privately - limited, I think, to Iran) are what anyone sane would describe as peaceful, stable and democratic, why should I care what they think?
Do you suppose a peaceful settlement can actually be found by 5th Dec?
I doubt it - according to your own links, the Albanians and Serbs have been hacking away at one another for at least the last 500 years. I don't imagine that they'll suddenly stop dead (no pun intended) just because they have their own government. (Incidentally this is the only real parallel I see with Israel - the conflict will only end when the peoples involved decide that they want it to end, and not before.)
Does Kosovo have a right to exist as an independent body?
If there is a desire and a way, why not. Apparently the US supports independence. Since the UN maintains jurisdiction in the area I guess final determination will have to pass the Security Council.
Why is Kosovo apparently ignored compared to Israel?
Circumstances, history, constituency, cost, blowback, the Bible and about 20 other reasons.
Do you suppose a peaceful settlement can actually be found by 5th Dec?
I'm not sufficiently educated on the matter. I hope so.
I'll answer only the first question. The answer is yes, but only after the referendum of the whole Serbian population.
Citizens can not declare themselves independent just because they feel to do so. Let's be realistic, if Vermont or Hawaii would declare independence tomorrow (even after the majority of the state's population would support it), how long it will be before a few thousands marines are shipped there to quell "separatists"?
Citizens can not declare themselves independent just because they feel to do so. Let's be realistic, if Vermont or Hawaii would declare independence tomorrow (even after the majority of the state's population would support it), how long it will be before a few thousands marines are shipped there to quell "separatists"?
QUOTE(English Horn @ Sep 24 2007, 04:00 PM) 
I'll answer only the first question. The answer is yes, but only after the referendum of the whole Serbian population.
Citizens can not declare themselves independent just because they feel to do so. Let's be realistic, if Vermont or Hawaii would declare independence tomorrow (even after the majority of the state's population would support it), how long it will be before a few thousands marines are shipped there to quell "separatists"?
Citizens can not declare themselves independent just because they feel to do so. Let's be realistic, if Vermont or Hawaii would declare independence tomorrow (even after the majority of the state's population would support it), how long it will be before a few thousands marines are shipped there to quell "separatists"?
Amen to this. If Kosovo becomes anything but a province of Serbia without Serbia's agreement, then it will be a grave affront to the independence of small nations, which will be shown to depend on the interest of powerful ones.
QUOTE(Vladimir @ Sep 24 2007, 10:32 AM)
QUOTE(English Horn @ Sep 24 2007, 04:00 PM)
I'll answer only the first question. The answer is yes, but only after the referendum of the whole Serbian population.
Citizens can not declare themselves independent just because they feel to do so. Let's be realistic, if Vermont or Hawaii would declare independence tomorrow (even after the majority of the state's population would support it), how long it will be before a few thousands marines are shipped there to quell "separatists"?
Citizens can not declare themselves independent just because they feel to do so. Let's be realistic, if Vermont or Hawaii would declare independence tomorrow (even after the majority of the state's population would support it), how long it will be before a few thousands marines are shipped there to quell "separatists"?
Amen to this. If Kosovo becomes anything but a province of Serbia without Serbia's agreement, then it will be a grave affront to the independence of small nations, which will be shown to depend on the interest of powerful ones.
You're both being silly. It's a balance of vectors problem. Whatever the influencing political pressures decide is what will ultimately determine the outcome. The main players appear to be the Kosovo majority, the UN Security Council and NATO. Serbia comes perhaps next. I suspect the Serbian government, being an ineffective player at this point will probably reluctantly accept a clean break with perhaps some "guarantees" of the protection of the Serbian minority. What else can they do?
Throughout history regions have expanded and Balkanized based on the forces in play at the time. Balkanization appears to be on the horizon this time. A majority poll of Serbians in opposition means what? If the majority had prevailed at an earlier time Kosovo would have been ethnically cleansed of Albanians. So what's so magical about what a majority of Serbians think?
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