Read the full story here.





There are actually a couple of points I'd like to bring into focus for this debate. The first is:

Does Israel have the right to knock down people's homes when they feel the owner/occupant may be linked to terrorism? Why or why not?

The second:

Do you feel that Israel takes enough care to prevent civilian casualties in their operations? Why or why not?

It's very sad and unfortunate the woman got run over by a bulldozer. But Israel has a right to defend itself. Israel was not targeting that woman or any innocents. She was a casualty caused by the misdeeds of who she was trying to defend.

Until the Palestinians quit blowing up 8 year olds en masse, I feel no pity for them. Until the Palestinian people living in those homes point out the murderous thugs hiding amongst them, I have no pity for them. If they are aiding and abetting murderers, they have accepted the risk and consequences.

This useful idiot killed was protecting the people protecting the terrorists.

The people allowing murderers to hide among them are not innocent. And by failing to point them out, they pay the price. Good flippin' riddance.

I don't think Israel tries to hard to limit civilian casualties, but I can understand why they don't. As long as palistinians keep blowing up innocent Isrealies and as long as palistinians hide and assist the terrorists that commit these acts the IDF will be equally as ruthless in their pursuit of the murderers. Is it right? no. But until someone steps up to the plate this never ending cycle will continue.

And does Isreal have the right to enter homes to search for terrorists, I don't know Isreali law but I would think they do. Our law enforcement, with the proper authority, can search homes if there is evidence

I can understand that Israel is pursuing Palestinian terrorists, but I have a hard time imagining even half of the 2,200 lives claimed could have all been terrorists... especially when taking into account the terrorists, more often than not, kill themselves in their very acts of terror (suicide bombings).

I think Israel is being either extremely reckless or perhaps going out of their way to kill Palestinians (regardless of guilt) by being completely indiscriminate with their raids on these towns. Maybe it's just me, but the same way I wouldn't expect a police officer to shoot through a civilian to kill a bank robber, I don't think it's right for the military (of whatever country) to run over unarmed and innocent civilians to get at suspected terrorists and their families.

From what the report read, she was standing with a bright jacket on and the bulldozer not only ran over her, but backed over her as well. And, according to the witnesses in the report, Israeli soldiers shot at Palestinians who gathered around her body, killing one. What in the world!?

2,200... three times the number on the Israeli side. Could it perhaps be that by killing three times as many people, Israeli forces are encouraging more angry -- and newly homeless -- Palestinians to join up with opposition forces (terrorists)? Sounds to me like they engage more in Palestinian stereotyping (ah, they were Palestinian and terrorists, therefore since you're Palestinian you might as well be) rather than sound intelligence and precision strikes to punish the guilty.

But, I doubt this will change anytime soon. They'll send her home in a bag and we'll send them a check to keep up the "good work."

Abs is right.

A lot is said about Israel's right to defend itself, but does that same right not also then extend to the Palestinians?
Whom is the guilty party in this matter?

Israel is founded over the homes of these people, who have been pushed into tight ghetto's, who are fenced in, who are regularly attacked with helicopter gun ships and tanks, who have no decent education/ health or government to support them and no real military to defend them.

Sky news is reporting that this US woman had been sitting in the same place for three and a half hours, and when she realized the bulldozer was not going to stop, she did in fact try to move out of the way, but failed.

I cannot see how she is responsible for the actions of the IDF. The Israeli's are saying that she was irresponsible for placing herself in a combat zone. Well excuse me, but I thought combat was when TWO sides were fighting. Not when ONE side was bulldozing peoples homes into the ground!

This may seem like a trite response (and I assure you it's not) but does anyone here have any ideas how the Israeli government can stop killing Palestineans? I for one deplore violence, but I've never seen anything to indicate that the Palestinean government or the terrorist organizations operating out of the occupied territories (and I do realize that that is what they are) will stop with anything short of the destruction of Israel. Was this woman being run over tragic? Yes. Should the people responsible be disciplined? Yes. But lets not martyr her for a cause that seeks the destruction of the Israeli state and the eradication of its people.

I don't think it's right to harbor and protect the murderers of innocent people. If they want to keep their houses and lives, help eradicate terrorism like the rest of the civilized world tries to.

Amen. I think what people do not understand is that no Isreali land giveaways will bring them peace. Too many Palestinian factions deny Isreal's right to exist.

Where has it said that this woman or any of the other 2,200 casualties knew who the terrorists were or where they were...? You're speaking as though all those Palestinians killed (3x as many Israelis mind you) knew where these people were and, well, they just didn't feel like talking. I think allowing 2,200 people to die to keep a secret would set some kind of record... maybe I should look into it.

The Israeli government is being completely arbitrary in their killing and destruction. They work on the presumption that just anybody should know and thus anybody is guilty if they don't have something to say. I seriously doubt if this American student was positioning herself in front of a terrorists home, so much as simply trying to protect an innocent family's house from being razed in unjustified retaliation.

There is no justice in killing those deemed "guilty by association." And that's precisely what the Israeli forces seem to be doing. Maybe we should just allow our police forces here to assume you knew that a sexual predator was living on your street and punish you for it. Or since there were so many drugs in the quiet man down the street's house, they can be sure to punish you, because they figure there's no way you couldn't have known... and you just didn't want to tell them.

Innocent Palestinians can't help it if terrorists hide amongst them... but that's precisely what they do -- hide. To just assume that any and every Palestinian should be able to inform police about terrorist activities as though it were common knowledge is absurd... and it's even more so to destroy their homes or kill them because they couldn't live up to such ridiculous expectations.

Good grief...use a little logic already.

If the Israelis know where the terrorists are hiding, you don't think the Palestinians do? Secondly, name for me ONE time neighbors coughed up a terrorist cell. Hell, name for me one time any Palestinian coughed up a terrorist cell.

You are justifying the slaughtering of many innocent WOMEN AND CHILDREN because of the plight of a people who've basically made their own bed. They got a deal at Camp David that gave them 95% of everything they wanted and they told the world to shove it. They went back to what they do best. Kill people who can't defend themselves and have people who feel sorry for them pity the repercussions..

Stop killing innocent women and children and they can keep their houses and lives. That's pretty simple.

But I agree, the Israeli response does not fit the terrorist acts. Instead, I would level the entire west bank so nobody has anywhere to hide.

It's a shame she died. It's also a shame she didn't have enough sense to avoid it in the first place. War is a deadly serious thing. No matter how nobel your intentions may be, if you put yourself in harm's way you may be harmed.

Hopefully her death will be a lesson to the other pawns in Iraq.

I guess they don't have things like trials in Israel. The soldiers decide who's guilty or dangerous. Like the three year old baby they shot in the head yesterday along with 10 others.

I wonder how people here would react if suspected terrorists in their neighborhood caused the military and police to plow down their houses as well...just in case.

DR,

Those nuke em and turn it into a glass sea responses are fun to say but they are not productive. There are two sides committing atrocious acts in Israel and the one with the official army is simply conducting activities that are less immoral than those of the suicide bombers.

Both sides have had opportunities to push for solutions to their problem since the Arab Revolt of the 1930s and both sides have chosen to remain recalcitrant and to rely on the use of violence to achieve their goals.

The young woman put herself in the role of defending people she probably did not know and died at the hands of an Israeli tank. While it was not a very wise decision, it reveals that it is not difficult to get killed as a civilian in Palestine.

Sure. In response to suicide bombings, yeah I have no problem with that.

Suicide bombers are not quite so particular or discriminate about who they kill, where or why. As long as someone dies.

One bulldozer plowing over a house is pretty careful. Probably the most careful thing the IDF could do.

Blowing up a passover meal on a jewish holiday should have had a response like carpet bombing the neighborhood. But instead, the IDF uses restraint and bulldozes specific houses.



Yep. Let me put it like this:

Intent is everything. If you are driving a long one day, and accidentally run over and kill a pedistrian, you will go to prison. But not for murder, for a lesser charge like manslaughter. The court takes into account INTENT/circumstances etc etc. They realized it was an accident, and went easy on you.

Now lets say, your that woman who ran over her husband with a car...twice...with her daughter in the passenger seat. You will get convicted of murder in the first degree and be sentanced to a long long time in prison.

In both of these cases, one person died. A tragedy. But the killers were not punished the same way because of the INTENT of the driver.

The INTENT of the IDF is not to kill innocent people. They want the terrorists. This is evident by their actions. Why, just a couple months ago, they killed a Hamas leader in his car. Only him, and a couple other terrorists were killed...NO civilian deaths.

I think the IDF takes great care in limiting civilian deaths. I wish the pal's would do the same...they might get more sympothy from me.

It sounds like that lady played a game of chicken with a bulldozer, and lost. Sorry.

--cheers

They can get one Hamas leader in his car with a handful of bodyguards using a missile, yet somehow have manged to kill 2,200 people... I still have a difficult time seeing this as being "careful."

And if they know where the terrorists are, as Dayton says:


why can't they seem to get them and refrain from killing so many civilians? It seems there wouldn't be a need for so many casualities or additional homes destroyed if they had such wonderful intelligence. It also seems that they'd have more of those terrorist leaders they've managed to take out with guided missils... but how many of those have we seen in contrast to women and children woulded or, as in the scenario linked by Danya, shot in the head?

Would you have me believe that all 2,200 were either terrorists or uncooperative Palestinians? Somehow, I think if somebody knew something, they would have talked already... and probably after the first 1,100 examples set by the Israeli Army. But hey, they're not Americans and they play by different rules than our military and police forces... I guess they can afford a few unarmed civilians and children.

As long as a terrorist is going to kill even 1 Israeli, I guess Israel will be sure to kill another three or four Palestinians. And if we're to believe all these people are guilty or accomplices, I suppose they might as well carpet bomb them... but somehow I just don't imagine all those Palestinians were evil, malicious people. That's just me though...

this is a rare occurance when the IDF bulldozes a house rather then using a 1000 pound bomb or a barrage of artillery.

suicide bombers have killed less than 1000 people, ID forces have killed THOUSANDS. the IDF does this either way. target military, they'll raze your neighborhood, target civies, they'll raze your neighbor hood.

yes, israel takes alot of care in their targeting. they take so much care that a UN worker was shot and kiled, a pregnant women was slaughtered, an ambulance was shot to hell, and 14 people died when israel air force dropped a 1000 pound bomb on an apartment complex to kill one man. the palestinians have NO ARMY, and are not properly armed, and are fighting a battle for their lives! they have to do what they can (they do need to get better at target selection though.)

the intent of the IDF is the same as the intent of american soldiers currently in kuwait: to do as they are ordered to by their superiors. their superiors intent is to toatally and completely eliminate the palestinians. (the UNSC has condemned the zionist israeli government as racist.)

Maybe they need training for using those bulldozers...if you believe these are nothing but accidents that is.


link

There'd be no need in my neighborhood. They'd be gift-wrapped and delivered by the residents.

Absolutely. The Israeli's need to keep on ramping up the violence until the Palestinians who are left finally decide that they would rather get with the peace program than become part of the next bulldozer's tracks. It isn't a particularily diplomatic approach, but it seems to be the only language that the Palestinians understand. Anytime you have a population that is so dead set on revenge, the only solution that seems to work is to kill one side or the other off. Given the choice between Israel and Palestine, Israel wins out on the right to continue existing on planet earth, in my opinion.

Israel has just as much right to knock down the enemies home as we do to bomb military targets in Iraq.


They take too much care. The Israeli's have been jerked by back repeatedly from solving that mess quickly and decisively. Some American student gets run over by an Israeli bulldozer, boohoo, what about the American students that got blown up in a palestinian suicide attack a month or two ago? Oh, that's right, it isn't special because Palestinians kill Americans and their allies all the time, but Israel killing an American BY ACCIDENT, now that is news!

Q: Why shouldn't Israel worry about civilian casualties when cleaning out Palestine?
A: You don't win wars by being nice.

I think it is unfortunate that some of us can think that the shedding of innocent life can be so justified. There seems to be a pervasive belief that all Palestinians killed in these raids are complicit in the suicide bombings. On top of being immoral, this state sponsored blood feud policy, this hard line policy has done nothing to improve the safety of Israeli citizens during this second intifada.

But let's carpet bomb Palestinians to solve things. Sounds great.

Very true. It's unbelievable that people can justify the slaughtering of innocent Israelis because of the "plight" of an uncivilized people.

I don't think anybody likes the idea of ANY loss of life...regardless of the reason. But the Israelis have been forced into this action by the murderous actions of Palestinians.

When the Palestinians take a break from killing innocent Israelis, the bulldozers are not moving in. And I can't seem to recall the Palestinians looking for bulldozer drivers when they arbitrarily kill a busload full of people.

Israel detroys houses for two reasons:
1/ Because they are placed in strategic positions. e.g. near an israeli check point,...
2/ Because a family member of the household was a suicide bomber.

In both cases the link with terrorism is very weak.
1/ Because there is a possibility that someone in the future can attack Israel from this place.
2/ The problem with suicide bombers is that you can't prosecute them. Israeli's policy of destroying the suicide bomber's family house is to break the motivation of suicide bombers. The majority of suicide bombers are in their late teen to early twenty and their family is not aware of their intention. They would stop them from killing themselves.

The most recent time (to my knowledge) when this policy was applied was during WW2 when the german would routinely execute a number of civilians as a repression to an attack by the "French resistance". German would also called them "terrorists".

When do a resistance force become a group of terrorist when your land is occupied?
If killing civilians in a conflict distinguish terrorists from rebels, is the American bombing of Hiroshima and Nagaski a terrorist act?

I love how people always blame those being systematicly slaughtered. yes it is all the fault of the "savage" palestinians.

israel is the agressor here, and at the least, they need to pull all forces back and destroy the illegal settlements (this according to UN security council resolution)

also, as of dec. 11, 2002 aprox. 1000 palestinian civilians were killed and only 300 israelis. yes, the "savages" are the murderous ones . ( http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/resourc...s/10plagues.htm ) all of israel is built upon stolen land, built on the blood of innocent british men, women and children killed in the king david hotel massacere. it was built upon the blood of tens of thousands of palestinians.

I find it sickening that people that condemn indiscriminate suicide bombings could propose carpet bombing the palestinian ghettos. this would be indiscrimante murder of innocent people, the same thing you condemn!

dayton, you also say that israel was willing to give them 95% of what the palestinians want back. you don't mention that this would have been in a balkenized style (also, the borders are non-negotiable, per several UN security council resolutions) these lies have been exposed long ago:

http://search.cometsystems.com/search.php?...nery%2FAV44.htm -(archived copy, original unreachable)
and the same article carried by a jewish run site: http://www.gush-shalom.org/archives/article183.html
a very credible site also reporting The Myth of the Generous Offer; fairness and accuracy in reporting (FAIR) http://www.fair.org/extra/0207/generous.html -
and another jewish site carrying the big myth: http://nahalatshalom.org/2002-08/The_Big_Myth.html

the fact is most israelis and palestinians wish to live side by side in peace. it is the extremist factions on BOTH sides that continue to keep the fighting going. though in my opinion the israelis as the more powerful side should make the first show of peace (ie full compliance with UNSCR's 271, 452, 465, 468, 469, 471, 605, 608, 636, 641, 672, 673, 681, 1073, 1402, 1403, 1405 and 1435-(that is 17 resolutions regarding palestine alone, there are more as well they are in violation of) especially 452, and any reiterating it.
israeli violations of UNSCR's PDF of countries in violation of UNSCRs (other than Iraq)

This young woman was not a tool for our ideological bantering. She was someone's daughter, perhaps someone's sister. Put aside for a moment the context of the area and the situation. She was neither a hero or a villain. She was someone you might have gone to high school with, and she certainly deserves a little more respect than to be used as a tool to justify violence on either side of an extremely sad situation.

The Palestinians are not some unanimous entity seeking the death of some unanimous Israel. The majority of people on both sides are concerned more with daily bread than they are with idylls of total annihilation.

Most of the Americans who go to the West Bank or the Gaza Strip are people committed to mediation, non-violence and justice. Most of them are there also out of a religious motivation, many within the auspices of churches like the Church of the Brethren, the Mennonite Church, and the Quakers. If anything, we should be praising these people - no matter what side of the Israeli/Palestinian situation we ourselves adhere to. Why, you may ask?

I have two friends, John Kreider and Michael Greene, who are in the West Bank. They are there through the Church of the Brethren. What do they do? They spend a lot of time roaming Palestinian neighborhoods, sort of a neighborhood watch. When they encounter situations developing between the IDF and Palestinians, they step in, try and mediate. They have sent me some very scary accounts, but they feel there have been occasions where they have definitely prevented an escalation of violence. They also spend a lot of time, and this is probably the most important bit, training Palestinians in non-violent methods of resistance to the IDF, as opposed to, say, suicide bombing.

This is particularly good, because let's face it - if the Palestinians were engaging in a Ghandi-like intifada, how could the world possibly ignore their plight? And it is a plight. They are living in apartheid. If all bombings stopped, and the IDF withdrew, still there would be the plight of living under a very harsh Israeli rule.

Furthermore, and finally, we've been talking here a lot about supporting our troops. I think everyone here has nothing but good wishes towards the men and women being sent towards Iraq. If and when I hear about Air force pilots bombing a hospital, or troops, accidently or not, killing civilians, I will still support them. I know that war is messy. I know where to lay the blame, it is not on the troops. I will not call them idiots. And yet people, real people, who are dedicated to ending violence, who are dedicated to social justice, mediation, and peace, many of whom feel called by their God to act, why is it that we can turn them into faceless automatons of idiotic and wrong-headed philosophies, call them idiots, say "good riddance?" Such disrespect is ruthless, insulting, ignorant, and frightening.

Your argument suggests that Israel arbitrarily bulldozes house of innocent civilians with no end result, but the killing of innocents. That is completely bogus. The Israeli tanks do not roll over a bunch of innocents and leave. The tanks DO get rid of terrorists and that fact is verified by both Israel and the Palestinians.

Israel claims 1,945 Palestinians have been killed with 39% being died-in-the-wool terrorists (Fatah, Hamas, et al) and 22% supporters of terrorism.

http://palestinechronicle.com/article.php?...030317084449194

Obviously, the Palestinians respond by saying those number are a lie. The Palestinians claim that in fact, 2,183 have been killed and only 25% were terrorists. TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT?? Excuse me, but that means when Israelis go looking for terrorists, 1 in 4 is a terrorist. And that's believing the Palestinian numbers (which I couldn't find credible in a million years). Do you live in a household of 4? Look around you. Statistically, one of you would be a terrorist if you lived in the Palestinian territories.

Now, you would like me to believe that the 3 people standing around each terrorist are oblivious to the terrorist actions? Good grief...the Israelis can figure it out, so I can't imagine how hard it would be for someone living in your household to know it.

This is an absurd debate. We want to root for the underdog, but the underdog blows up buses to get sympathy....and gets it!

All of us wish these people would stop killing each other. But Israel has a right to self-defense. Without carpet bombing the entire west bank, their only alternative is to root the terrorists out.

Of course, a peace agreement would be better, but the Palestinians turned that down because it was much harder work than strapping explosives to their bodies.

As far as the "plight" and "occupation" rhetoric, I will give that some credibility when the Palestinians start blowing up buses in a non-Jewish state. 70% of their land went Jordan.

This is all about hating Jews. Period. Go to http://www.edume.org/reports/3/toc.htm and check out what the Palestinian kids are taught in school. Go to http://www.pcbs.org/english/pal_map.htm and pick out Israel. Here's a hint...you won't find it.

I didn't say there was no end result. Sometimes they bulldoze the houses of innocent civilians in order to build walls.



Of course not. They always stick around, the better to do it again.



Sorry, your logic doesn't pan out. When the Israelis kill 4 people and 1 of them is a terrorist, it certainly does not follow that 1 out of every four Palestinians is a terrorist. Your end analogy is false. It might be more accurate to look at it this way: if 1 of the 4 people in your household was a terrorist, the Israelis will simply kill all of you to get the one.



That's a pretty scary idea. You honestly think the Israelis have no other options besides carpet bombing or apartheid? Can't you think of maybe another option? Even one?

Actually, in spite of your spin, I was writing about the topic at hand. You so casually dismiss this girl, dehumanize her. Is it easier to think about that way? To decide she deserved to die for trying to end the violence? I never stated that Israel has no right to exist. I am not anti-semitic in any way. In fact, my grandparents lived in Israel for some years; my grandfather is a Hebrew scholar and an Old Testament theologian. But what I see, again and again, is is this dehumanizing thinking about the Palestinians, and the people who support their right to live free of occupation.

Do you think the Palestinians have a case for resisting Israel? Do they have a right for statehood? Do they have a right to resist occupation? To fight for their freedom? I don't mean suicide bombers - I deplore such methods.

Do you really think this girl was stupid and deserved what she got? Do you believe peace activists who go to the Occupied Territories to mediate and aid Palestinian efforts at peaceful protest and civil disobedience are stupid?

Yes, I think she was stupid. And yes, she got what she deserved. She was aiding and abetting monsters who blow up buses full of innocent women and children (the ones Palestinian supporters continue to discount). For every house she stands in front of, she is shielding a murderer.



Excuse me? What are they then? Aliens from other planets?

You continue to use the word "arbitrary", well....arbitrarily.

There is NO evidence that Israelis "arbitrarily" pick neighborhoods where terrorists do not hide (assuming that's possible). However, they go to the neighborhoods where they know the terrorists are. In those neighborhoods, 1 out of 4 (even using the Palestinians ridiculous numbers - as I was sure you would) people are terrorists.

If the Israelis repeatedly went into neighborhoods and killed a bunch of innocent people without any terrorists, your point could be well taken. But that's not what happens even though you talk like it does. Israelis target terrorist camps and find them. And the morons like the woman who stood up to a bulldozer just add to an already bad situation.


Of course...the most obvious. Quit strapping explosives to your body and blowing a bunch of kids up. Until that stops, I have no pity for them or anybody that supports them.



I think they have a case at times, but no - nobody has a "right" to statehood. Civilized people do not utilize blowing-up-buses-diplomacy to get their way. And as long as they can't act civilized, they have no place in a civilized world.

The Palestinians lost the land they were living on (it was never theirs to begin with) back in 1967 because they used it as a military base against Israel. They are making war now just like they were making war then. Israel took away their ability to invade Israel. Jordan took away 70% of their land because they could.

A timeline on the history of the 6 day war.

http://www.gamla.org.il/english/article/20...2003/feb/g1.htm

Unfortunately, the Palestinians turn every place they live into a modern day Detriot and nobody wants them. Everybody around the Palestinians feel sorry for them, but they're not stupid enough to take them in. Where did the Palestinians live before 1967? There was no Palestine. They were under the control of Jordan and Eygypt and never said squat about statehood.

The Camp David deal would have given them land that was never actually theirs before. But the Palestinians want the destruction of Israel more than they want peace and a chance at a life. Now they are stuck with that decision.

I still think you're misunderstanding me here:


You took a leap - even if you use the Israeli figures, it does not and cannot apply to the whole population. If one out of every three people arrested is a criminal, it does not follow that 33% of the population are criminals. It only follows that the arresters are right 33% of the time. By the way, that's not a great track record no matter how you look at it. I think you misunderstood my critique, as it was certainly a technical one, rather than ideological.





I support the struggle of the Palestinians, yet if you look at my posts about the topic, both in this thread and elsewhere, you will find exactly zero instances of "discounting" the terrorists.



How and why did the US achieve statehood? If, as you say, we had no right to it, then indeed we took it by force. So are you endorsing violence to achieve statehood? Couldn't diplomacy and balance create a state as well? The Palestinians, like the Xothas and the Zulus of SA, will not stop fighting the thumbscrew of apartheid. Since this is the case, isn't the diplomatic creation of a separate state a good thing? It's certainly better than fighting until you win or are all dead, at least I tend to think so.

And let's get real - the Israelis have no more of a right of statehood than the Palestinians. Does might make right? If the US had lost the War of Independence, would that make England "right?"

I approached this thread from the view of trying to humanize this conflict. It is you, not I, that continues to make blanket statements about ALL Palestinians. The same goes for the peace activist who died. You would like to dismiss her, see her as some anomaly, when she was a woman who believed in peace, not war. Mediation, not terrorism - on whatever side the terrorism occurs.

By fighting and beating the British army. We didn't target their kids.

Read deeper than the headlines....



So these weren't babes in the woods, just drinking their afternoon tea.

The violence on both sides is pointless, but don't try to characterize the Israelis as indiscriminate murderers. If they wanted, EVERYONE in those refugee camps would be gone tomorrow. I think under the circumstances, they are being restrained.



Exactly right. These houses are the staging grounds of the homocide bombers.



Almost every Israeli killed was a civilian, while quite a few Palestineans were combatants.

Also, I can't really believe either sides numbers (total that is) of casualties...there is too much incentive to lie about the real number of people killed (both from an Israeli and Palestinian viewpoint).



Look at the history. This land that the Palestineans claim was conquered by Israel, after Israel was attacked. They hold it for defensive purposes. It was originally owned by other countries, not Palestineans.



The Palestineans were offered alot of land in the Camp David Accords, and they declined. No other state that I know of has ever offered land to its neighbors to appease them. The Israeli offer was refused, and the conflict continues...

As to the women in this case...when you place yourself in harm's way, you are stupid if you think you cannot be hurt. Her actions were irrational. Those bulldozers are armored, with very small viewports for seeing outside (like tanks with snowplows on them). She probably knew after a few moments of observation that they couldn't see her. To stay in harm's way....I feel sorry for her family, but not her cause or her actions.

EDIT: One more point:


In short, no, it can't. No country has ever given up land to a "foreign" power for purposes of creating a brand new state (not in modern times, anyway). The Camp David Accords would have done that...but were rejected by Palestine.

here is an apparent eye witness account.

U.S. Declares Open Season on UN Workers

I think this makes it clear enough that Israel isn't taking enough care in preventing civilian casualties in their operations... regardless of how we choose to view Palstinians as a whole.


Well hey... they were probably protecting the same Palestinian terrorists others on this thread have claimed the other 2,200 or so casualties were protecting... after all, the Israeli forces don't destroy property or kill people arbitrarily, right?