http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071013/ap_on_...boot_camp_death

Much more than the Jena 6, I believe this is a very good example of unequal justice between blacks and whites. Michael Vick will do more time in jail than these poeple that had this boy die in thier custody. In fact, it is most likely that they will do no jail time at all. Remember- they had these guys on video tape beating this boy.

Do you believe the statement that America cares more for a dog's well being than a 14 year old black kid to be true?

Do you believe the all white jury that aquitted these drill instructors did the right thing in aquitting the instructors?

Do you think that the punishment for Micheal Vick, who killed dogs, should be more severe than the punishment than the drill instructors?

Everything I can find on this trial says the kid died from some blood disorder. As for the "beating" it seems like (and I can't find video) it wasn't disimilar to what happened in the Capitol Building.

So...

1) No. Anyone saying it is probably over emotional and slightly dimented.
2) I really don't know. I can't find anything useful on this case. If you have some links I'd really appreciate them.
3) We know Vick is guilty of something so yes. Show me that the drill instructors are murders or negligent then they should be in jail for a long time.

Using this story the gist seems to be the kid is in a boot camp when he became lethargic and couldn't finish his physical fitness test. Then the drill instructors begin trying to get him to comply with their orders thinking he's just being difficult.

So it would seem that these drill instructors missed the signs that this kid was literally dying in front of them as the physical exertion kicked his blood disorder into overdrive.

I'd say these people were definitley not trained at all for this sort of thing. However, the nurse should have been. I don't know about jail time but this facility needs to be investigated and probably closed. I don't think this was a malicious death. Civilly however... wow. What a case.

Do you believe the statement that America cares more for a dog's well being than a 14 year old black kid to be true?

Only in rare instances, and I think that you can drop the adjective "black". I remember the story of a woman whose two pit bulls killed her baby. She was incensed that the authorities put down the dogs, saying "I can always have another baby." Don't ask me to come up with a link, because I probably can't. It was back in the 80's, I believe.

The upshot of it is, there are people who do not value human life the way most of us have been taught. But I don't think that we care for the well-being of dogs more than that of children, only that it may be more apparent to the public when an animal has been abused in some cases.

Do you believe the all white jury that aquitted these drill instructors did the right thing in aquitting the instructors?

I didn't see or hear the evidence, so I can't say. I do think the fact that these so-called "boot camps" have been closed down in Florida is an appropriate response.

Do you think, CR, that the fact that the jury was all white made a difference in the proceedings? It seems to me that the prosecutor had a say in the jury selection process. I'm not sure that an all-Caucasian (?) jury necessarily would make a difference, unless it could be demonstrated somehow that it was a racially-motivated crime.

Do you think that the punishment for Micheal Vick, who killed dogs, should be more severe than the punishment than the drill instructors?

Yes, I do. Vick admitted to it. Plus the fact that it had to do with about 500 dogs, not just one or two. The guy was using the dog fights for business purposes as well as entertainment.

There has to be a preponderance of evidence according to the jury to come up with a guilty verdict. In the absence of such evidence they would have no choice but to acquit.

This was a tragic situation and it seems to me that the so-called drill instructors should have assessed the situation better before concluding that the kid was acting out and started kicking him. But I could say the same of real, Marine Corps instructors on Parris Island as well. Every now and then a Marine recruit drops dead, too.

Juvenile delinquency is hard for parents to deal with, and I understand why they would ship a child off to this kind of center if they believed that it had to do with attitude and not some underlying medical condition. I also think that such facilities are very attractive places to work for adults on power or authority trips. One would hope that these employees would be as carefully screened as the children should be medically screened before going to such facilities.

Yes, I do believe an all white jury was definately a factor- there is no way they would have aquitted those instructors if we had a dead white girl.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/nation/story/315571.html

A videotape showed the guards beating Anderson for almost 30 minutes while the nurse watched. Both sides agreed Anderson did not die from the prolonged beating.

“If the cause of death would have been beating, it would have been a different case altogether,” said Miami lawyer David S. Markus.

The prosecution argued Anderson died of suffocation because the guards held their hands over his mouth while pushing ammonia capsules close to his nose for as long as five minutes. But the medical evidence didn’t show a clear case of suffocation, and even prosecutors acknowledged there has never been a case of death by ammonia capsules.

Defense attorneys presented experts who insisted Anderson died of sickle cell trait, a normally benign condition. No one at the boot camp knew Anderson had sickle cell trait.

“And if you can’t determine the cause of death, and it seems like there’s a real battle going on over the cause of death, that may be reasonable doubt for the jury,” Markus said.

Okay- who doubts that someone beating a dog for 30 minutes would be okay- to gain compliance?

Regardless of his condition, known or unknown, a beating for 30 minutes would be enough for me to convict- and if it were a little white girl getting beat on camera for 30 freakin' minutes- OR A DOG- we would have 8 poeple sitting in jail right now. No doubt whatsoever in my mind.

What evidence is there that this kid's death was inspired by racism? According to a source and the article you posted, two of the guards were black and a third was Asian. Did the other white guards make any defamatory statements? Do they have the stars and bars on the side of a trailer somewhere? Are they on hate websites? Where is the evidence that it was racial?


If anything, the boy's death is evidence that PRIVATELY run "law and order" juvenile institutions can't get the job done.

But what evidence do you have to support your belief, CR? Yes, it happened in the South. Yes, dead or missing white girls, especially blonde ones, make the news more often than anyone else.

It seems to me that court transcripts would help in shedding more light on this. Unfortunately, I don't have access to them. I know that the District Attorney has prosecutors to gather evidence and files charges when there is evidence to support the idea that a crime was committed. Maybe whoever prosecuted the crime wasn't as good as he or she needed to be. But for whatever reason, the jury acquitted the "drill instructors" of this juvie boot camp.

I'm not saying that they should have been acquitted. I do not subscribe to the idea that a person of color is more likely to be at fault in a given situation. But the fact that the victim was black and the jury was white doesn't necessarily mean that the wrong verdict was reached.

How about trying these people on a lesser, more provable charge?

It is not the racism of the poeple that killed the boy- after all, beating him for 30 minutes is apparently okay- it is the low value white poeple in juries in the south put on a black boy's life. We are talking about the brutal beating the Jena 6 did on that white kid- however- we have drill instructors, on tape, beating a kid FOR THIRTY MINUTES. Why even charge the Jena 6 for beating a white kid for just a few seconds, compared to a thirty minute beating to a kid by adults. ANY minor medical issue would quickly become life threatening- athsma, anything- when you sustain a beating for 30 minutes. The kid is passing out- they keep hitting him with amonia caps. The nurse just stands there. No vital signs taken, no real attempt to determine if the kid is really in distress.

Instead, they just beat him, more and more.

It is the all white juries racism and lack of care for the life of a black kid I call into question. There should be no consideration of a pre-existing condition when you are talking about a 30 minute beating- we are not talking simple restraint, we are talking a sustained beating here.

What we have here is a sustained beating,

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/5198018.html


A guard charged with killing a 14-year-old boy at a juvenile boot camp told jurors Monday that a video showing himself and other guards hitting, kneeing and dragging the boy depicts training designed to protect both the guards and the child.

Guard Charles Helms was in charge of the Bay County Boot Camp exercise yard Jan. 5, 2006, the day Martin Lee Anderson entered the camp. Anderson died early the next morning at a Pensacola hospital.

Helms and six other guards are charged with aggravated manslaughter of a child. Nurse Kristin Schmidt, who is seen throughout the 30-minute video watching the altercation, also is charged in Anderson's death.

Helms, a former Army drill instructor, said the camp was intended to have a paramilitary tone and the youth were expected to answer all questions with "sir, yes sir."

He said the youth were labeled under a color-coded dot system according to their backgrounds as juvenile offenders.

Anderson was given a red dot, the highest of five levels, because he had gang activity and violence in the file given to the camp from the Department of Juvenile Justice, Helms said.

When Anderson collapsed, complained of shortness of breath and refused to continue a mandatory run, numerous guards approached him because that was the camp's policy, Helms said.


Helms later demonstrated for jurors the hammer strike blows and knee strike techniques the guards used to gain compliance from the youth. He said the blows were a method of gaining control of Anderson without seriously hurting him.



And a thirty minute sustained beating with no one checking his vital signs for the entire time is okay? Do you really think that a white girl on the same video being treated the same way would have still got an aquital? If you believe that- you have to be completely niave, perhaps beyond niave.

How long? What charges? How about the ENTIRE Jena 6? What should their jail time be like? What charges should befall them?

Based on the aquital of these instructors- I would pretty much let the jena 6 go- the jena 6 didn't kill the kid, and didn't beat him for 30 minutes. In fact- if anything, this highlights the fact of the two justice systems- one for blacks, one for whites. It is pretty clear that a black family can't obtain justice from an all white jury,

this really outrages me, because, gawd forbid someone spanks thier kid in this country- but these guys beat him for 30 freakin' minutes, when he was clearly in distress, by the nurses own admission.

The most negligent was the nurse- she never ordered a set of vital signs in the entire time, That right there rises to the level of negligent homicide, all by itself.

No doubt. I just watched the video and it was utterly horrible to witness that. Maybe the place should get the title little gitmo. However that might be possibly legal to do to a human, not to mention a 14 year old needs to be severely changed if not the entire program scraped altogether to eliminate such possibilities. Everyone involved in that pretty much should also be facing some pretty severe penalties plus people in charge overall. I find it hard to believe it was even happening really when I was viewing such. I know in real boot camps people can die from it, but not like that. Even so drill instructors can get nasty, but even from the WW2 era I don’t know of any stories matching this event. For all the people that cry out about how a system can come to abuse, I think this is one that surely should qualify.

CR-Three of the guards were minorities. What evidence exists that the guards were motivated by racist intentions? Was the coroner who found that he died of a rare disease(sickle cell related) also a racist?

Do you have a link to the video? I can't find it.

"Ask and ye shall receive."

I couldn't find where anyone has linked the video. So, here it is. It isn't pretty. Look's worse than Arpaio's "Tent City," if that's possible. In my opinion, it's just more jackboot justice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIdYzIaX9hQ

To clarify- I don't think the incident is racially motivated- I believe it is the white jury that is biased. I don't believe an all white jury- seeing a white girl in the same position as that black boy, woud have aquitted those poeple. To repeat- i don't believe the instructors or nurse had racial bias- I just believe they were brutal poeple with no ethics or morality and deserve to go to jail for manslauther, at the least.

OK Just watch the video.

#1 let's dispel the myth he was beaten for 30 minutes. That's no longer something anyone should bother writing.

#2 These idiots in the hat should have been able to see this kid was in real distress. How the godamned nurse missed this is deplorable. Is she really a nurse?

#3 The prosecution screwed this case up. The jury wasn't racist they were given the wrong set of parameters with which to prosecute these people for negligent homicide.

Now with that said CR - You framed the entire debate horribly by turning into a referendum on racism. In as much you have made it impossible to debate the real issue and in the end made this a semantical sport. As posed in your line of questioning there was no crime here and Michael Vick's case bears no resemmbalance here and as such cannot be compared.

It is an interesting case and I hope the Feds find a better verdict and are able to prosecute this case properly so justice can be served.

The feds can probably get around double jeopardy by trying this as a civil rights violation. Whether or not the guards in the "Smokey the Bear" hats acted out of racism, they are at best authoritarian thugs. I hope they get a long time behind bars in connection with a civil rights violation.

Beating a federal rap will be harder.

http://www.aapsonline.org/judicial/dojstats.htm

It ain't over.

He was beaten for thirty minutes. The youtube video is not thirty minutes long. In fact- no one disputes it went on for thirty minutes- they dispute that it was anything other than business as usual, and policy for them to do this, every day.

the very fact that they were even allowed to have this as policy is bizarre to me- we are not allowed to treat adult convicts in that manner.

Once again- Michael Vick's case, the Jena 6 and this case are very, very inter-related when it comes to the justice leveled at and for blacks.

You had thousands of mostly white poeple calling for, basically, Michael Vicks death and castration. Where are all the white poeple now, with signs decrying the killing of this kid? Why is a dog's life worth so much more than one black boy's life? Why is the beating of a white kid in Jena so much more horendous than this beating?

That was the question the mother of this child asked, and has asked- why is a dog's life, getting justice for a freakin' dog, so much more important to America than getting justice for a murdered white boy?

Why do white juries have such a hard time convicting poeple when the victim is black, and all the perps are not black (this was a mixed group)- to me, yes, the jury was a bunch of racists, at the very least, very biased against black victims. Like I said- there is no way in hell that this jury would have let those poeple go had that been a white girl in that videotape.

My basic response to all of these questions is that no one on this board, at least that has put their two cents worth in yet, has enough of the facts to determine. Everyone is going by what the media has shared. Has anyone read the transcripts and the jury orders? Do we know that they were given a list of possible charges to convict from, or were they limited by only one and the state did not meet all of the legal requirements to convict that level of charge? Does anyone here have the training, knowledge and experience to be able to determine that the disorder this child had would react to the 'beating'? Any knowledge that the strikes used by the guards were landed on body parts of the boy that would be easily percieved to cause life threatening damage?
I watched the youtube video and didn't see a continuous beating. Did you link the correct video? From what I could see in the video, the instructors were trying to get the kids to his feet and to walk. I didn't see a barrage of kicks and punches as I expected to see from the commentary from those that have posted.
There isn't enough information for me to make a dertermination. This is the problem with people only hearing one side of the story and making a conclusion. It is apparent to me that no one here has all of the facts, yet everyone wants to jump to a conclusion with only a small amount of information, most of which is emotionally driven and not factual.

I definately have the training to make this decision, I have worked with far worse kids, inmates and the mentally ill for over 20 years. You try that stuff, in ANY setting,INCLUDING correctional- you will be fired and brought up on charges- and for assault and battery, if no one died.

Fact- they beat and drug this kid around for 30 minutes. There is no emotion there- it is fact. The defense never hid this fact- they just said it was policy.

Have you actually seen the entire video? I have not. I think I saw one instance of a strike by a staff member in the posted video. It was to the kid's leg. I was trained in corrections that the placement of this strike would cause immediate pain, but no damage; similar to a joint manipulation technique in that a high amount of pain is felt with little to no damage as a result. You should know this with your extensive training and knowledge. If you have a link to the court records and jury instructions as well as a video for the entire incident, please post it so we can make and educated determination. Throwing the race card on the table from the beginning automatically polarizes the entire discussion, which appears to have been your intent.
By the way, what in your training in corrections would qualify you to determine that the kid had a medical condition that would react unfavorably to the beating? Just curious.

If you will notice, scubatim, there was a "nurse" present in this episode. Why didn't she stop it?

You seem to be one of those people who is going to argue that authority can do little if any wrong.

Want to bet abaut the outcome of civil rights trial in federal court?



I provided the 8 minute Youtube video. Why don't you look for the full unedited 30 minute video and report back to us?

Don't wail on scubatim for 30 minutes BoF

CR has taken a great topic and tried turned it into a racial flame war. That 8 minute video does not show a constant beating. End of story. There's nothing that points to racism in this case. End of story. The all white jury angle is moderately interesting but not terribly compelling. Story may be discussed.

Scubatim seems to be questioning CR, not condoning the situation or outcome.

I would love to view the unedited 30 minute video if there would be a link provided. If CR wants to convice us that his view is correct, he should provide the proof, I am not responsible for the burden of proof. I am only responding to the information provided. What have I said that makes you think that I am arguing that authority can do little if any wrong? I have just asked for all of the evidence, why are facts about this specific case bad? Do you say this because I am a conservative? So, given the fact that you provided the 8 minute edited video and you are completely against me before I even take a position on this topic, please provide the facts of the case, that is all I ask.

Does it have to be "constant" beating and is thug like behavior not as bad as "racism?"



Who died and made you Scubatim's keeper?


If Scubatim wants a 30 minute video, let him look for it. I found the 8 minute one, it's his turn.

BTW: If you have a beef with CR, take it up with him.

On the contrary, you are making the case that the jury was racist, you look for it. Provide facts and evidence. A news report, an 8 minute youtube.com video, and a wiki article are not factual evidence. Jury instructions, court records, and the entire incident would be considered evidence.

In reference to your question about it having to be a constant beating, yes. Numerous times in previous posts it was reported that the kid was beaten for 30 minutes. It was a valid point.

By the way, no one is my keeper, so where does that come from. Just because someone else is looking for more information and you feel like we are ganging up on you? Relax, you won't always have everyone on your side.

Are you confusing me with CR?

I used the word "thug" not racist. Want to try again?

BTW: The 8 minute video is more evidence than you've produced.

Do you believe the statement that America cares more for a dog's well being than a 14 year old black kid to be true?

Wow, that's a stretch to say the least. I think the only way you can intellectually compare the two is if the same people, judge/jury, who convicted Vick also acquitted these instructors. Since that didn't happen, all I have to say to this is....apples to oranges. Unless of course you believe that two sets of judges and juries represents America as a whole.

Do you believe the all white jury that aquitted these drill instructors did the right thing in aquitting the instructors?

The right thing? Legally? Morally? Both?

Legally, it seems that the defense had one hell of an attorney and the prosecution failed to present their case well. That doesn't make it "right", but we all know that criminals get off all the time, it's just the way our system works, or doesn't work.

Morally, I don't know. What is moral to me is different to others, it's pretty subjective.

Do you think that the punishment for Micheal Vick, who killed dogs, should be more severe than the punishment than the drill instructors?

Punishments depend on tons of variables. But, I get the impression this question is more opinion-based. When asked the way you present it, absolutely not.


Now, for my opinion of this whole thing.....

As for the 8-minute video vs. the 30-minute video, from several stories that I've read state that the 8-minute video is of the last 8 minutes of the 30-minute video. I cannot find a copy of the 30-minute video so I'll take their word for it for now. Since the last 8 minutes showed only about 6 minutes worth of the beating, I don't think the 30-minute video is worth making a big fuss over. That being said, even in those 6 minutes, I was appalled at what I saw. These guys circled that kid like vultures. The nurse, oh my god, the nurse of all people didn't do a damn thing even when the kid was unresponsive. I don't know what credentials that woman has as a nurse, but they should be revoked immediately.

I actually like the idea of juvenile boot camps. I think it's better than throwing a worst case scenario kid into a foster home(or anywhere else in the "system") and hoping for the best. What I don't like the idea of is a boot camp that has "policies" for beating someone that isn't even fighting back. If you really want someone to "feel the pain", make them do push-ups, sit-ups, run laps, whatever... But beating them? C'mon... I was in sports in school, I remember "hell-week" in track, football, etc... Believe me, there's nothing painless about it.

As for the trial, I don't think negligent homicide was too strong of a charge, it seems to fit. It's not like they were charging them with murder in the first degree or anything. Even if they were to try them for a lesser charge, if my memory of double jeopardy is correct, you can charge them with a lesser crime but you can't use any evidence you used in the original charge. That's right, no video. So, unless they can come up with new evidence, a civil lawsuit is going to be their best bet.

Sickle cell or not, that beating was totally uncalled for. I think that any time a group of people go all rodney king on someone, they should be punished.

I consider what I saw on the eight minute video, evidence of prisoner abuse. I have not said it was "racism." If you can find any place I've said said it was racism, do so.

I have never said you said anything. How many people are sitting in this forum arguing with someone that hasn't taken a position on the issue that is being discussed. Maybe I watched a different video, or the one I watched was too poor of quality, but I have yet to see anyone beating anyone. Please post the video that clearly shows a group of people beating the boy. The video I watched didn't show, as someone had referred to this as them 'going Rodney King on him' or something to that afect, so if there is evidence of the kid being beaten for 30 minutes, that is all I am looking for. You guys are getting all bent out of shape because I am asking that if you are making the charge that the guards were over-stepping their authority, the nurse was negligent, and the jury was racists, provide the facts, not the opinions. The last 8 minutes of the video doesn't provide all the facts, especially since I seem to be seeing something different from everyone else since I don't see a bunch of vultures going Rodney King on this kid. I appoligize if what I am asking makes you feel threatened or offended.

Offended or threatned? Do you just drop in and have those powers after a few days? Think again. You assume way too much.

Oh, I see, since you have been here longer, you have powers? If you didn't feel offended or threatened by what I am asking, why are you jumping all over my posts? Why not debate with people that disagree with you? You are debating with me, who has yet to take a position! What is the explination for that?

I am saying the jury is racist- the correctional facility poeple are just plain ol' thugs- but probably not racist.

That being said- yes, we are trained that just because a prisoner can still talk, does NOT MEAN he is okay. In fact, quite the opposite. There is a thing we call "compression asphixiation"- the body needs an increase in oxygen due to physical demands, while the body is not able to due to a number of reasons- one is restricting chest movement, covering the mouth or nose, even if not a tight seal, can throw the prisoner into respitorey arrest. So you stop what you are doing, think for a minute, usually perform some vital signs ESPECIALLY if they have no baseline to follow- i.e.- you don't have a long history with this inmate, having taken vital signs frequently, and a good physcial and blood work up. If the prisoner or patient says they are having problems breathing or performing, even if all our instincts tell us it is a con job, we stop what we are doing and check it out. I have done vitals on prisoners that were tied to the floor and totally combative without incident. I have had them being held by other employees while I take vitals-

the first thing you learn to do, if you are a senior employee, is stop the situation before it gets worse. Ask yourself, is there a good reason why we SHOULDN'T stop and check this out? Will five minutes of vital signs give the inmate some sort of "edge" over the behavior program we are implementing? Of course it won't- if you are in a good behavior mod program, time is on YOUR side, NOT the inmates. You have shifts of poeple, you get to rest, you get to leave the facility, and leave the inmate in continued care of other employees that can continue to implement the program.

What is really bad is the RN, she is the most culpable person here. Not once did she ask for a set of vitals before continuing on. If an inmate complains of shortness of breath, and chest pains- then we run vitals and an EKG- we have the machine nearby.

Heck, even if you hate the poeple you are dealing with- you should do it just to avoid an investigation and the paperwork.

It is unfortunate we can't charge the person that wrote the policies with murder in this case- because if what we were seeing is policy- it SHOULD be criminal.

I deal with poeple far, far, far worse than a 14 year old gang banger. I deal with real predators that have nothing but time to connive a way to kill you. Hammer strikes and Knee drops may be policty there- but it is unneccesary and foolish.

And a 14 year old boy is dead because of it.

And an all white jury couldn't bring themselves to find justice for that 14 year old boy, so yeah, it is a racial issue.

We call for the head of a rich quarterback because of a bunch of dogs- thier lives, apparently, are worth much more in our justice system than a 14 year old boy.

Talk about misplaced priorities. how many resources where used to gain a conviction of Michael Vick? How many resources were devoted to finding justice for a 14 year old boy?

Where are the animal lovers that screamed for Vick's castration when this 14 year old boy's life was taken from him? Where are the thousands of hate mail letters?

It is a debate board and I will debate with whom I please. You will not do well here using a tactic that brands your opponents as "offended" or "threatned." That is a supposition on your part and in my opinion a losing one.

It seems you did take a position here.



If, on the other hand, you don't have a position, why do you persist in posting on the thread? If you need more information, then why not look for it. Few on this board will do your homework for you.

Maybe you should shift your focus to CR, since he's the other person with correctional experience.

Edited to add:

Just so everyone will know what CR is saying when he mentioned Michael Vick, here is the link to one of the threads on the subject. There are a couple more I'll link in a bit.

http://www.americasdebate.com/forums/index...760&hl=Vick

Here are two more if you want more background.

http://www.americasdebate.com/forums/index...c=15546&hl=

http://www.americasdebate.com/forums/index...c=15335&hl=

I was the one that used the terms "rodney king" and "vultures". What I meant by vultures is that there were 7 guards circling him. Now, I don't work in the field of incarceration or detainment, so maybe someone else here that does work in the field can shed some light on why it takes 7 people to deal with an uncooperative kid? Is it an intimidation thing? To make sure your co-workers aren't doing anything wrong? Boredom?

The rodney king term may have been an exaggeration, but only because this kid didn't seem to be fighting back.

I usually sit on these types of threads for a while for more stories to come out before I weigh in. I find that when a story breaks, everyone and their gerbil pounces on it before the dust has even settled. However, in this case, it seems the original thought was the right one. After this story became popular, Jeb Bush hired someone to investigate it further, they even exhumed the kid's body to do a second autopsy in which they concluded that the sickle cell trait was not the cause of death. I'm having a hard time trying to find a time line to these events so I don't know whether it's enough for another charge. Also, the family accepted a 5 Million dollar settlement, so it looks like there will be no civil court case.

The Vick observation is an integal part of CR's thesis.

Why Brittney, Paris and others are newsworthy, has been a topic of discussion here. I tend to agree with your assessment and to make matters worse, Anna Nicole is back in the news.

I don't know for a fact, but it would seem that the number of guards would be for the intimidation factor. I think, and it is only speculation, that since this setting is more of a retraining or rehabilitation for kids that have gone down the wrong road instead of an incarceration, intimidation is a technique that really opens the eyes of those kids that think they can push everyone around with violence. Again, I don't know if this is true, but if there is a policy of this practice, it would make sense to this effect.

Actually- the 7 poeple there was possibly the ONLY correct thing to do. In fact, I know the manual on this area by heart "Be sure and have help close or nearby. Physical presence can both calm or anger, but it is good to have as many personel as logistically possible in order for a show of support, both for documentation and safety. It is up to the lead person to make sure no employee is out of contorl. If you can not control yourself, then you can not control the other person. Pain compliance techniques can escalate an inmate, and cause them to try to "get even" now or later, and, if they feel you are a target they can not get too, then they may take it out on the person they feel they can take revenge upon. Use these techniques only as a last resort, and not to gain compliance but to make sure your staff and the other person is safe and secure. Pain compliance techniques NEVER work in behavior modification, they will only escalate negative behavior."

The manual then goes on to talk about how behavior programs work- you want 'behavior extinction"- punishment NEVER works. Negative re-inforcement, positive re-inforcement, natural consequences ignoring of some minor, though irritating side behaviors etc- but strictly punishing for behaviors- well, if you are truly talking rehabilitation- punishment and rehabilitation just don't go hand in glove.

Now- I am a firm believer in punishment in some cases- because, some poeple are completely a waste of resources or even compasion. But as far as modifying thier behavior- punishment does not work. You must replace the bad behavior with an acceptable behavior.

I helped write that manual, BTW

This case effectively closed ALL "Boot Camp" style Juvenile facilities in florida... sad really the recivitism rate was less than 1/3 of other types of facilities, we actually got at the root causes and taught the kids to grow up.


http://www.floridacapitalnews.com/legacy/b...olk-county.html





CR,

This inmate was not beaten for 30 minutes....

i work for a florida law enforcement agency

This inmate died from UNDIAGNOSED sickle cell anemia.


This "Child" was a gang member and had been classified as the highest security level threat the boot camp could handle.

please dont make it sound like some innocent child was steam rollered and unmecilessly beated for thirty minutes.... that DID NOT happen.

you want to know why they were so slow to respond? it is common for the detainees in facilities like this to fake seizures, fainting, or sickness to get out of or over on the system.

this was a 170lb 6' felon not some little innocent middle schooler.

How by killing them? I am sorry but from viewing the video all I noticed was a group of adults taking over by stress turned outright violent hatred. That cannot or should not ever be accepted. The kid could not have done anything to terribly wrong to deserve that, it was totally unjust. The reality posed was that event was something that could occur possibly to something that did occur. I agree that such a strategy of providing a better environment to such youth is probably a better use of resources then simple incarceration, but not when this kind of action occurs or can really. It was a fourteen year old kid basically put to death in a system in which he had no other means to go about differently.

I will not justify the first part of your response with an answer.



No, they get at the root causes, teach them how to stand up for themselves against their "peers" and take responsibility for their actions, also we remove them from the enviroment that put them their in the first place, get them a SERIOUS education and try to pull their life out of the pit they dug themselves into .


This "Kid" was a 6' 170lb gang member and a felon.

This "Kid" died from Sickle Cell Anemia.... Not from any "Beating" but you will see what you want to see... so there is no point in trying to convince you .

I have to appologize, but the video I saw didn't show anyone beating anyone.

Actually he didn't die from Sickle Cell, according to here and here. So, if he didn't die from Sickle Cell, he must've died from something, right? Perhaps it was old age?

You must either be watching something else or have a really lax aptitude for what violence happens to be. I don’t care about his height or weight, I know kids much larger then that at same age but I don’t personally ever care to treat them as adults because its not the proper or real expectation to give to someone that age regardless of environment. I mean has the concept of child soldier ever reached your attention. They fight as soldiers while being kids, and the impact of this is well hard to put into a sentence from what I understand of it. The program failed at every level with this event and in reality I think it was simply to shocking for "adults" to deal with they why of it all. They kid was brutality handled to say the least and when they stood him up, I just don’t understand how can you cant watch that without a very negative reaction to say the least.

You know, I was in real boot camp, and it did not compare in any way to this. If military drill instructors had done this, they would've been court martialed and, I imagine, found guilty of something. This was a crime deserving of punishment. But what can you say about the South? I lived there for some time, and frankly, people were deeply racist down there. I doubt it has changed.

Ah. I just noticed that this took place in northern Florida. Having travelled there extensively, I will attest that it is one of the most backward and racist regions of the entire South. One you leave the beaches, North Florida is just like southern Georgia. Racist redneck crackers.