OK< I have a few things to say about this:

I think this would make sense if the whole world was spontaneously born in 1980 with the election of Ronald Reagan and the (consequential, perhaps) rise of Rap music, crack, AIDS, spiked petty crime, and other trends which have left the young African-American male the stereotype he has been given today.


But I think there is a deep, gnarly history here that is far more complex. After all, the archetype of the black pimp, thug, pusher, whathaveyou predates rap by a century-- it's an evolving creature born somewhere in the hysterical propaganda that followed reconstruction. The images of black criminals as a 'dangerous unknown,' a dark taboo within the society is central to American culture, probably European culture too, to a degree-- I'm thinking of those African Muslims who cause deep consternation in the heart of 'cultured' Frenchpersons wike Brigitte Bardot... they have been there since colonialisation. After World War I, a big problem for French and German societies was miscegenation between -- especially on the losing German side this was seen as an unstomachable offense on the part of women who are after all, supposed to support their men. Societies are always drawn tot he dark unknown within its borders, be they witches, spies, or whatever else -- and Rap just fulfills that demand with basic free market supply.

So to say that cops get their images of black men from rap, the local news, and other media sources, is only I'd say 10 percent true. And maybe 15 percent false.

False,
1. Because Rap is not alone in forwarding those images: they are integral to our history and our society
2. Because Rap is an artistic reaction to this problem: there is quite often humor, and parody, and complete sarcasm to the artform that even Rap's O'Reilly-type critics concede. 50 Cent -- a self-depicted giant, immortal pectoral creature from an anime movie -- is anything but "real."

Finally, I think to say that Blacks are a "very loud minority"... I think that heavily depends on how you define loud, and in what areas are blacks a "loud minority." Personally, I would not have even used the word "loud," but it's a word you share with one of Rap's fiercest critics, Greg Tate. Let's see what he has to say about this:



So to say that cops are lazy? Yeah, I think that is absolutely half true. We all take shortcuts at work, and we all have quotas to fill. Cops know -- or at least think they know -- where to catch people speeding, and they know -- or at least think they know -- which speeding drivers might have a cinder-block shaped paper bag full of whatever in the truck.

But I don't think African-American music or culture "promotes" that image nearly as much as it is accused of doing.


Secondly... I wanted to address this point:


I am going to breeze past the obvious criticism of this, and ask another point: why is success equivalent to talking white/looking white? Just because that's where the money is? Is stock broker the only option for success in our society? What is unsuccessful about a grandmother who raises her grandchildren to sing and preach in a traditional black church, for instance? Why is success so material? You're asking poor black youth to change their names and totally separate themselves from their parents, their community, and their culture and live their entire lives like it was an audition for a job interview... I'm not sure one human being in history (except maybe Romulus) has ever so fully divorced themselves from their surrounding like that, and why would anyone want to? There's real value -- humor, joy, community, religion -- to black life in america, just as there is in any culture. Those things keep people invested in their community for good reason. I don't care how quiet the suburbs are, they aren't that powerful a beacon.

You set this up as if life was a clear choice between:
a.) become a doctor
b.) genuflect Jesse Jackson

How about C, none of the above. PS, I would love it if we cleared one debate on these things without setting up Jesse Jackson as a poster-preacher for nationwide black victimhood. As a liberal, I'll make a promise not to wield Pat Robertson as a symbol for everything that is inherently flawed with conservative christians as people, if the other side does the same for JJ and AS. These guys are beloved spokespeople, not composite characters.

In reference to J Jackson or Sharpton, I think what you're saying is exactly what aggravates people. Why is Al Sharpton on talk shows like Michael Bazedon? I heard him the other day acting as if he was a role model. It's sad that Black America can't see how denegrating of a race baiter and how divisive a guy like that is.

However, I believe when it comes to criminal justice, your post is confusing. I'm not sure you've argued that there isn't a reason for Blacks to be jailed more.



Ok. Tell me this. I assume you've gotten tickets. How often does the cop ask you to get out of the car? Do you play music loud? Are your windows tinted dark? Are you driving through a bad neighborhood late at night?

I have been asked to get out of the car. I have been asked if a cop can look in my vehicle. I don't care, barring being in a hurry (which happened once, and my belligerence SINCERELY backfired).

What people don't understand is that police see the underbelly of society, and that is coupled with the notion that many people who NEED to feel like they're in control become police. It attracts people with those complexes.

Why does this relate to black people being jailed more?
Well... I think the problem is that if you're perpetually told that being stopped is due to race, you negate the other ideas that might cause the problem.

Maybe you ARE acting suspiciously. Maybe you ARE doing something illegal, etc. Nothing, however, ever changes if you automatically suppose that you haven't done any wrong and the system is flawed.

I believe that America is raising a generation of Black Americans who believe they are entitled to treatment that is different. They should be allowed to steal cars and deal drugs with impunity, as racism is the root cause. It's a self-defeatist mentality for all involved. Nothing changes, and in fact it seems to get worse.

Accountability. That's what needs to be taught in schools from kindergarten up. Teach kids that, regardless of color, their actions have consequences. By then, idiots like Sharpton will be dead and gone and maybe there will be hope of true unity and maybe racism will be a term of the past. However, the race baited and "man holding me down" mentality doesn't seem to be on a course headed out of town. It seems to be getting worse.

After all... think about the climate in America. That Kid in NYC was shot by cops, and the first shooter was black, but people made it out to be a racial incident. How absurd is that? It is, but people still use it as a barometer of racism. I don't even want to bring up the Jena deal. The media NEVER mentioned that the kid tried as an adult was a repeat offender.... hmm...

Well, gee, that's a pretty broad stereotype, innit?

Yes, there are criminal black youths who feel that the "man" is holding them down. THere are also white youths in the appalachee who sleep with their cousins. Neither are representative of their respective races.

For every krumping, carjacking african-american out there, there is another who realizes the value of study. For every well-educated white student, there is a high-school dropout, of the same race, working in a meth lab.

Of course, the ratio between the two are tetchy at best, but nonetheless you have to realize, Aevans, not all black kids are brainwashed by Al Sharpton. Not all white kids attend weekly KKK meetings.

Because he is an eloquent speaker who brings media attention to a situation like [Jena, Sean Bell, etc.]


I would argue that in an era of cable news spokespeople are naturally polarizing. The same critique that I might make of AS is the exact same on I'd make of Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter, Bill O'Reilly, Micahel Savage, Rush Limbaugh-- that in their search for media attention, they win if they are:

-divisive
-sententious
-always quick to claim the moral high-ground.

In the case of AS, it is especially tragic because:

1. He came from the civil rights movement, which in theory was supposed to bring America together (though, in truth it was divisive as any movement in the past 75 years)
2. He is one of few nationally recognized spokespeople for a community that suffers in a real, and continuous way.

I mean, you call him a race-baiter... but couldn't we add "baiter" to the end of any number of divisive American issues?

God-baiter, tax-baiter, abortion-baiter; Giuliani is nothing if not a 9/11-baiter, McCain is a veteran/patriotism-baiter, John Edwards is a poverty-baiter.

this is kind of off-topic so I'll stop there.

But to reply to Aeveans post:


The amazing thing is, I'm a white boy who grew up in Atlanta and did everyone of those things.

No cop ever asked me to get out of my car. I've been pulled over, I've been in wrecks, I've been stopped by state patrols from Georgia to Louisiana. I've shuttled through countless roadblocks late at night -- in Africa and in America -- and never been stopped or hassled. I routinely sneak out from the worst of it. Allow me to cover myself in case these posts ever come to some sort of light, and some job interviewer reads through them or something: as an 18-year-old, I may or may not have wrecked a tricked out bonneville that wasn't mine and wasn't insured into an old white lady's cadillac while skipping school and stinkingly high in a heavily-black part of Atlanta... that's your Rodney King scenario right there. A few months later, I was headed to college without so much as a traffic citation. I don't think a black person my age would have been paranoid to think that they would have fared differently in that scenario, in the South, in Atlanta.

I think it's because, among other reasons, cops are paid to make judgments about the people they pull over. Simple as that. Cops have to make life and death decisions about the 18 year olds who drive around high. And race is totally out of proportion with the way cops make those judgments. To that cop -- if indeed the above scenario happened -- I was nothing more than Ferris Beuller, but I'd argue that black people have a right to be Ferris Beuller, too.... Beuller, Beuller... anyone... anyone.

I don't disagree with most of your points, moif, but I would like to clarify one issue. The "stop snitching" phenomenon has got a lot of ink since 60 Minutes did a story on it. However, the notion of not talking to the police or other officials is hardly a new situation.

Many cultures, including the mainstream dominant culture, send a mixed message about talking to the authorities. Om one hand people are encouraged to be honest, tell the truth, report crimes and be a "whistleblower." On the other hand, children learn early on that to be a "tattle-tale" is not nice. The stoolie, snitch, rat, canary or just plain informer are not exactly titles of honor. Police have their own "code of silence" that matches the Sicilian (later appropriated by the Mafia) philosophy of omerta.

I disagree totally with the idea of "stop snitching" but it didn't start with hip-hop music. Rappers just put it to a beat.



That's bull hockey, Aevans176. "Driving while Black" is not a figment of an overactive imagination, an urban legend or acting suspiciously. It's racial profiling and it is REAL.

It has happened to actors Wesley Snipes, Will Smith, Blair Underwood, and LeVar Burton. It has also happened to football player Marcus Allen, and Olympic athletes Al Joyner and Edwin Moses. African-Americans call it "driving while black"--police officers stopping, questioning, and even searching black drivers who have committed no crime, based on the excuse of a traffic offense. And it has even happened to O.J. Simpson lawyer Johnnie Cochran.

In his pre-Simpson days, Cochran worked hand-in-hand with police officers as an Assistant District Attorney in Los Angeles, putting criminals behind bars. Cochran was driving down Sunset Boulevard one Saturday afternoon with his two youngest children in the back seat when a police car stopped him. Looking in his rearview mirror, Cochran got a frightening shock: "the police were out of their car with their guns out." The officers said that they thought Cochran was driving a stolen car, and with no legal basis they began to search it. But instead of finding evidence, they found Cochran's official badge, identifying him as an Assistant District Attorney. "When they saw my badge, they ran for cover," Cochran said.

The incident unnerved Cochran, but it terrified his young children. "[The officers] had their guns out and my kids were in that car crying. My daughter said, 'Daddy, I thought you were with the police.' I had to explain to her why this happened."
link

I hardly expect you to read David Harris' study, but I personally attended a seminar where he presented his results and interviewed him. Harris is quite credible and his analysis is far more than merely anecdotal.

The sad truth of the matter is you don't HAVE to be playing your music loud or sporting dark-tinted windows (which are illegal in Ohio) or cruising through a "bad neighborhood."

It's enough to be stopped if you happen to be Black and drive into the wrong suburb or a "good" neighborhood or you've dressed too casual or too formal for the liking of a cop. Maybe the cop is wondering why a Black person is driving a particular type of car that seems out of their income range. It could be the cop doesn't like the sight of that White woman sitting so close to that Black man.

Racial--or racist--profiling is a fact of life and no matter how you try to sugarcoat it, Aevans176, there ARE still cases of "the man tryin' to hold a brother down."



I believe you are totally wrong as two left shoes. What you know about Black Americans is based on your own extremely limited exposure to them personally and professionally. You are allowing the extreme examples to represent the millions who have no criminal history, no interest in drugs and are not wallowing in self-pity and defeatism. That is hardly a representative sample and if you believe the worst of Black people represent ALL Black people, it's no surprise that you are so clueless as to the true hopes, dreams, ambitions and aspirations of African Americans.

If I were to think as you do about White Americans with the worst of them representing the rest, I'd have to conclude Whites did nothing but masturbate to pornography, molest children, commit serial and spree murder and enjoy war far more than peace. Fortunately, I'm a bit more sophisticated in my thinking than to allow the dysfunctional few to represent the functional many.



Accountability is a two-way street. Blacks need to be accountable for their own behavior and progress, but that hardly lets Whites off the hook for their own as well. Racial division didn't start with Al Sharpton and it damn sure won't end when he's gone either. However, there are increasingly dissenting voices among African-Americans about Sharpton's usefulness. You'll be happy to read this article that appeared in last week's Washington Post:

It should be said that Sharpton has the support of some African Americans. Even those of us who question his methods are happy to see someone take an aggressive stand against white racism. In an April poll conducted by NBC and the Wall Street Journal, almost half of black Americans said they had a positive opinion of Sharpton.

But Sharpton's overstatements and overexposure have rendered him a divisive figure in the black community. The remaining half of blacks polled either had no opinion, a negative opinion or didn't know who he was.

Memo to everyone everywhere: Al Sharpton isn't a black leader, he just plays one on TV. link 2

Nobody I know ever voted for Sharpton or Jesse Jackson as The President of Black America. At least, I never got a ballot. To a large extent, Sharpton enjoys such a high profile because the mainstream media (including Fox News which loves him) has made Al their "go-to guy" when something relating to race jumps off. Whenever some White dude gets caught saying something stupidly bigoted (Michael Richards, Don Imus, Dog the Bounty Hunter, I'm looking at you), Sharpton is the first person on their speed dial they call to confess their sins and hope for absolution.

Like the reprehensible Ann Coulter, Al Sharpton is another media whore who can be counted on to give great soundbite.




Thank you for pointing out what is quite obvious to most, akalae. Stereotyping an entire group of people for the bad acts of a few is never a good thing.

When I wrote 'common memes, like hip hop culture for example', I mean just that, an example. I'm sure there have been plenty of other ways in which the Afro-ethnic America community of the USA has singled itself out out, and been singled out. My point was that if a Euro-ethnic person does something, for example, makes a song about drug use, that song will likely not garner as much attention as if an Afro-ethnic person makes a song about drug use.


Loud as in bombastic, rebellious, overt. Unwilling to simply conform to the majority view. Banging and singing and dancing in a way that defies, and eventually over runs main stream music culture, as did Jazz, as did the blues/rock n roll as has hip hop. Loud as in blaxpolitation, Shaft, Samule Jackson quoting the Bible, Martin Luther King, Malcom X and the bug eyed fellow who made a film about Maclom X (but whose name I have forgotten). Loud as in the drama when ever a Euro-ethnic women is seen to be on the arm of an Afro-centric man as opposed to the opposite. Loud, meaning abrasive, cocky, static, irreverent, in-your-face. Loud meaning all of the above. The cultural impact the Afro-ethnic minority of twentieth century America has had on the whole world easily out weighs the impact All of Africa has had. Thats what I mean by loud.


No?
Have you watched any non American rap video's lately? Try perusing some the French rappers and see what they take from African American music. Every small time criminal and juvenile deliquent from Copenhagen to Cairo is listening to 50 cent and the myriad gangsta clones and buying into the image of 'the Pimp Thug'. Compare that to a positive example of Afro-ethnic culture in America and what do you have to compare?

Not so long ago, I saw a documentary about hip hop culture in the USA which sought to promote Ice Cube as an example of a positive role model because he'd starred in a few films which didn't promote violence. Being familiar with Ice Cube from my own younger days I had to laugh. The video I linked to in my previous post, the track entitled 'Terrorist Threats' is by Ice Cube and two other gangsta rappers and basically it lays out to any teenager with a few Euro's in his account just what Ice Cube really thinks;

I'm from that WSCG car
beat you up in ER from my PR
nigga, superstar, smokin' on a cigar
little homies know who the OG's are
been the **** since '86 and even right now
I gotta brag to these ******* 'bout my lifestyle
don't mistake the westsider for Al-Qaeda
this ain't supa-fly nigga I'm a spida

Bear in mind two things. One. Most Euro kids listening to tracks like these don't even understand half of whats being said, but they do get the general idea. Life aint nuttin but money and...

Two. This and stuff like it is what most non American teenagers understand to be 'Black Culture'.

Now, nighttimer and I have had many a run in on racial issues, and if I've understood anything then its this; Ice Cube and the rappers like him, do not constitute the Afro-ethnic culture of the USA. They merely have a far louder voice.

I'd like to make an example of a really positive Afro-ethnic American person to hammer home the contrast, but even though I'm quite well read, I can't. I can't, off hand, think of a single African American who isn't suspect in one way or another ...or a media/sports star and most of the really famous Afro-ethnic sports stars are suspect too. OJ Simpson springs immedietely to mind. I guess the most positive examples I can think of, off the top of my head to promote non violent, non 'pimping', non drug using Black American culture, are Tiger Woods and Oprah Winfrey.

My conclusion. That since what ever positive comes out of Afro-ethnic culture in the USA, makes no impact besides the juggernaut of sound that is gangsta rap and its various predessesors and then its not hard to understand why so many stereotypes surrounding American Afro-ethnic culture involve the uppity negro, the gangsta killa, the pimp daddy, the drug dealer, the thug or which ever other term you wish to use.

This perception which can hardly be denied, can only serve to distort how African Americans are seen by non African Americans. The only real question in my mind is why is it like this? Is Afro-ethnic culture really so self destructive, or is it subjected to massive exploitation and prejudice by a mainstream community that thrives on the distortion for its own ends? I suspect a bit of both.





I haven't seen or heard of the '60 minutes' article, but yes I agree. Indeed thats kind of my point. There are hundreds of examples of other groups and cultures maintaining a stony wall of silence surrounding criminal acts, but these are not blasted at the rest of the world in the way hip hop has done with 'snitching'. When was the last time you heard a Sicilian bragging about his whores, money or power on the radio? And if by some amazing coincidence you did, I bet it was a rap! Sicilians are just as likely to be criminals as African Americans, probably more so given their culture, but they don't advertize it to the rest of the world. They STFU. I have never, in my whole life heard of any other group of people who is so consistently portrayed, both by themselves and every one else in such a negative light as African Americans.

Not even Muslims.

And I do accept the fact that those bragging the loudest do not speak on behalf of the Afro-ethnic community, I merely contend that they are the ones being heard and perpetuating the negative image of Afro-ethnic culture in the USA.

And thinking about it, the fact that these rappers can make so much money indicates there is a great hunger for what they have to sell.

Loud? Damn straight Black folks are loud. You say "loud" like it's a bad thing. Loud the way a hungry baby is when they're screaming to be fed. Loud because if a baby cries softly nobody pays attention, but but a baby shouts and screams because it knows volume has a way of getting attention. Black people are trying to be heard. Trying to be seen. Trying to get your attention. Trying to be recognized. Loud? Yeah we are. Louder than a bomb.

I'm reminded of what the late sportswriter, Ralph Wiley, wrote in his book, "Why Black People Tend to Shout,"

Why do Black people tend to shout? Now there is a question for the ages. Black people tend to shout in churches, movie theaters and anywhere else they feed the need to shout, because when joy, pain, anger, confusion and frustration, ego and thought, mix it up the way they do inside Black people, the uproar is too big to hold inside. The feeling must be aired.

Black people shout because they are immortal and sense this. Black people sense this because we have been dying for years, shouting and dying, yet here Black people are, the salt of the earth. Here we are.

Black people tend to shout because they dare to have the nerve to not be silent.

If Black people didn't shout, who would? Now THERE is a question for the ages. link

Black people are loud because when things get too quiet things are getting too dull.



...and a extremely limited and superficial understanding it is.

What's your point? Other cultures have always--ALWAYS--bitten off of Black musical styles. I'm sorry if this makes me sound like a bigot but when I hear some guy who can barely speak English try to flow about how large he's living and all the fools he's smoked with his gat, I crack up with laughter. It's so phony that's it's funny. Jazz is more popular in Europe and Japan than it is here in America. Black hair styles, dress, slang, and music have constantly been imitated and duplicated by kids in Europe, Africa, Japan, South America and wherever else it lands. Back in the day before he became a total freakshow, Michael Jackson and that damn red jacket with the multiple zippers from "Beat It" were popular with teens all around the world. And don't even get me started on how many people have tried to be "like Mike" (Jordan, than is)

People tend to lead, follow, but mostly just imitate whatever and whoever is the "cool" and iconic presence of the time. It wasn't that long ago when many young girls tried their best to look like mini-sluts just like Madonna. When she grew older, they moved on to something else cooler than her. Once upon a time, M.C. Hammer was the end-all and be-all in rap. Never mind that like 50 Cent there were far more talented and skilled rappers than Hammer. The media can only embrace so many ideas and stars at a time. 50 Cent isn't the best rapper. He's just the best known rapper and there's a big difference between the two.



Exactly. The person who gets the most publicity and has the highest profile isn't necessarily the best at what they do. Anyone who knows anything about rap knows Puff Daddy or P. Diddy or Diddy or whatever the hell he's calling himself today sucks as a rapper. But that doesn't matter. What matters is he's made people think he's somebody important in the rap game and that's all that count. Perception is reality and no more so than in hip-hop. Reputation means more than genuine talent or skills--sorry..."skillz."



If that's your conclusion, then I would suggest you aren't as well-read as you think you are. There are many athletes, artists, actors, entertainers, entrepreneurs and activists within the African-American diaspora that provide positive, non-violent, non-pimping, non-drug usage and progressive examples of the culture.




Afraid so. Record companies are in the business of selling music and if it happens to be music that degrades women, celebrates instant gratification, killing, drugs, killing cops and getting away with murder, there's plenty of rap and hip-hop out there to choose from.

But there's also Alicia Keys, Lil' Mama, common, The Black Eyed Peas, India.Arie, Jill Scott, Chris Brown, Wyclef, and even the often insufferably arrogant Kanye West doing their thing and most of it has nothing to do with "thug life."

The thing that kills me is people look at 50 Cent and all they see is a tattooed, muscle man spitting lyrics into a mic and they think, "Man, he's HARDCORE." They don't pay any attention to the fact for Curtis "50 Cent" Jackson, rap isn't a calling. It's strictly business and business is good. Real good.

Unlike traditional music genres like pop, rock and country, whose artists generally make the bulk of their money selling albums and touring, hip-hop has spawned an impressive cadre of musicians-cum-entrepreneurs who have parlayed their fame into lucrative entertainment empires. Curtis "50 Cent" Jackson, who nabbed the No. 2 spot on the list, presides over G-Unit, a diverse portfolio of businesses that includes apparel, ringtones, video games and even a line of fiction. All told, "Fiddy" as he is known to fans, made an estimated $32 million last year. "I'm creating a foundation that will be around for a long time, because fame can come and go or get lost in the lifestyle and the splurging," he told Forbes last year. "I never got into it for the music. I got into it for the business."

Coca Cola announced it would buy Glaceau, maker of VitaminWater, for $4.2 billion in cash. Once the deal is consummated, 50 Cent, who agreed to endorse the brand in 2004 in exchange for a small stake, should walk away with some $100 million.

link

I don't care if you're a butt-ugly rapper like "Fiddy" or not. When you can walk away with $100 million for endorsing flavored water, you aren't just some thug off the street. You're a businessman and what he's selling is his persona. As they used to say back in the day: rhyme pays.

The thing is it's easy to get what's popular confused with what's good. If I were to make a prediction, I'd guess that 50 Cent and others like him will be known more for the money they banked and the controversies they began more than the music they made. I have a hard time conceiving of putting a statue of 50 Cent alongside Duke Ellington, Jimi Hendrix, Robert Johnson, Stevie Wonder, James Brown, Marvin Gaye, Aretha Franklin, and John Coltrane when it comes to Black pioneers of music.

Once upon a time people worried that jazz corrupted the morals of White kids. Then they were sure that Little Richard and Chuck Berry were the devil's own imps with their sexually salacious songs. They had to get Pat Boone to clean up that weird Little Richard's records--and make crazy money too. Now parents are wondering why their precious little darlings are calling each other "nigga" and pumping out Souljah Boy and Jay-Z when they grew up digging Led Zeppelin and the Stones.

All things must pass. It's the nature of the beast called music. Something will come along that will send gangsta rap to the showers. Something always does.

Do I? That wasn't my intention.

I don't think loud is necessarily a bad thing. It all depends on the context. In this instance I am merely pointing out that a minority population of the USA has a louder voice than other minorities, for example Hispanics (and perhaps even to some extent, even louder than the majority).



My point is basically that understanding is nearly always superficial. That Afro-ethnic culture in the USA will always be defined by the lowest common denominator and as such, control of what that is lies at heart of the self identity of the African Americans. It can' t be any other way. Record companies, corporations, even the great global market can only buy whats on offer.


NT, I am very well read, but there is a limit to how many books a person can read! I tend to go for history or science fiction though, yes, I'm not that well read.

My point is however still valid despite that for most people are not well read on this or any other subject and frankly why should it be necessary to be well read to be able to roll the names of a few positive Afro-ethnic Americans off ones tongue without resorting to media or sports stars? How about scientists for example or authors? How many African American scientists are as well known as Eddison, Tesla or Einstein? (though to be fair, Eddison wasn't much of a scientist, more of a brilliant PR man who did apparently employ Afro-ethnic workers). They must exist surely, but when do we ever hear about them? Who are the African American role models?


Without a doubt, but in the mean time, how much damage (as in reinforcing negative stereotypes) will be done in the mean time?

NT, let me ask you a some what OT question the answer to which I could never know. Just how much internal debate is there in the African American population of the United States? Is there any real sense of common identity?

per Jaime's instructions- let's recap for a moment shall we?

1) Is there any other race in the US that has to deal with the cops regarding the "driving while black" ?

If the answer to that is "no"- then we have a system that targets blacks, no matter what or why of the crime- they just target blacks because they are blacks.

It is as simple as 1+1=2

A very easy equation- the American justice system is racist in the extreme, with no real coherence or logic in the system.

Today- 2 poeple were busted for possession of rock cocaine, with the intent to distribute. Each of the four counts they were each charged with carries a LIFE sentence.

Now, compare 4 kilos of cocaine, and the (minimal) impact on society, with say, the massive damage Michael Milken had done to this country. Millons of victims, in fact, IIRC, every single person in America had to pay for his theft, and, even worse, he was allowed to keep his ill-gotten gains, and remains a billionare to this day.

All the cocaine use in America doesn't equal the damage of one Michael Milken- who served, what, 3 years in prison, and was allowed to keep his money he stole?

This is a classic example of the disparity in the law, sentencing, and the "PASS" rich white men get from the system.

Our system is beyond broken, it is completely corrupted, with LEO and DAs fighting a losing battle with reality and politicians wishes, and a very racist society that we live in, and quite frankly, as long as we have the phenom known as "driving while black' as a matter of day to day reality- we are wasting resources instead of 'gettting the bad guys".

Moif- to be fair- gangsta rap is a very, very new musical thing- it is NOT 50 years old or anything like that. Didin't really even come around until the mid to late 90s as far as cross-over appeal, though NWA got the ball rolling.

But really, gangsta rap has NOTHING to do with law enforcement or racism or perceptions of race and criminal justice- these problems of a institutionalized racist justice system is as old as slavery, and older than the civil rights movement.

White America has never historically been above torture, castration, beating, burning and killing black men on a pretty large scale basis until very recently in US history- it has only started to really change AFTER I became an adult. Even as recent as the early 80s there was a pretty dynamic and well run racist society, with unequal enforcement and "extra-judicial vigilant-ism" towards blacks- so , it pretty much pre-dates gangsta rap.

Blaxploitation movies like "sweet sweetbacks revenge" by Mario Van Poeples was a wierd entertainment vs reality vs societal views on black, crime and punishment in our society.

My Grandfather gave this definition "A "good ol' boy" or "redneck" from the south is defined as a white man that will sleep with a black girl in a whore house, but refuses to go to school with her".

That about sums up racial attitudes in the US, to this very day.

It also sums up the criminal justice system- we seem to be more okay with a black man being a criminal than the CEO of a company.

I have always found this so wierd and dysfunctional, from the first time I was exposed to racism, it has never found logic with me- but, we, as a nation, sure seem to revel in our racism.

Look at Aevens- he even denies the existance of "driving while black"- a pretty well known phenomenon to black poeple- but a large chunk of the US population denies it's very existance.

Instead of punishing cops, counties or locales where this happens- instead, they are given rationalizations "oh, well, it just so happens most drugs are being transported by black poeple in fancy cars" or some such nonsense- with 0 evidence to back that up.

Look at CR, who always predicates his debate with comments that have no factual backing.

Driving while black is most likely a phenomenon, but I believe that it's woefully over stated.

The problem people have with your debates, or at least that I have the guts to argue, is that you don't provide one link, one piece of objective information, and argue against points as if you have some moral or intellectual superiority.

I haven't seen one SHRED of evidence that makes apples-to-apples comparisons.

The problem with most race based information about police action and our judicial system is that there is little comparison that deliniates "same situation" incarceration. It never states who has private defense, who has the same records, who are repeat offenders, etc.

Everything I read states "BLACKS JAILED __ X MORE FOR SAME OFFENSES". Does that mean that the justice system is racist or does it have some other reasoning? Probably a combination of both. Let's talk about apples-to-apples situations and show trending before we make blanket assumptions.

Obviously, blanket assumptions and claiming victimization have done nothing. I believe the strategy, in fact, has been counter productive. More Black kids are going to jail than ever. Right? Is America MORE racist than it used to be? I sincerely doubt it.

The problem I have with this debate, particularly your debate CR, is that there is never any objective factual information to back your diatribes. If all research and information followed the same presumptive course, we'd never have any technological or medical advances.

Please feel free to debate my ideas with information. Opinions are like... well....

Aevens- there has been reems and reems of evidence on numerous racial debates that you have either discounted as not "feeling" right, being skewed or not relevent to your particular situation. Facts have been presented on housing, jobs etc- yet, you say "it is because blacks are entitled"- I rather expect it of you, as most do-

you "don't feel it is so widespread"- of course you don't- you are white- police officers don't routinely stop white poeple for being white- you have to be screwing up.

But they stop black poeple because they are black, period.

Of course- you would NEVER take the word of the ACLU (though, interestingly enough- you buy everything GW has to say with total god-like worship )-
http://www.aclu.org/racialjustice/racialpr...ub19990607.html

to be fair- it is hard to find a study- because LEO types lobby SO hard to bar them- they know what the answer will be, and it is embarrasing to them.

One of the things that the ACLU wants is to force the police departments around the nation to hold studies on this kind of stuff:

FIRST: End the use of pretext stops

Virtually all of the thousands of complaints received by the ACLU about DWB – and every recent case and scandal in this area – seem to involve the use of traffic stops for non-traffic purposes, usually drug interdiction. Although the U.S. Supreme Court failed to declare searches subsequent to a pretextual stop unconstitutional, that does not mean that such a tactic is wise or effective from a law enforcement perspective.

It is time for law enforcement professionals to use their own best professional judgment in scrutinizing the wisdom of the pretextual stop tactic. All the evidence to date suggests that using traffic laws for non-traffic purposes has been a disaster for people of color and has deeply eroded public confidence in law enforcement. Using minor traffic violations to find drugs on the highways is like asking officers to find needles in a haystack. In 1997 California Highway Patrol canine units stopped nearly 34,000 vehicles. Only two percent of them were carrying drugs. Law enforcement decisions based on hunches rather than evidence are going to suffer from racial stereotyping, whether conscious or unconscious.

SECOND: Pass the Traffic Stops Statistics Study Act

At the beginning of the 105th Congress, Rep. John Conyers (D-MI) introduced H.R. 118, the Traffic Stops Statistics Act, requiring the collection of several

Do you know how belittling that was? And to have 11 guns drawn on you for traveling through the city – I could've been dead."

– Semell, 25, salesman
categories of data on each traffic stop, including the race of the driver and whether a search was performed. The Attorney General would then conduct a study analyzing the data. This would be the first nationwide, statistically rigorous study of these practices. The idea behind the bill was that if the study confirmed what people of color have experienced for years, it would put to rest the idea that African Americans and other people of color are exaggerating isolated anecdotes into a social problem. Congress and other bodies might then begin to take concrete steps to channel police discretion more appropriately.

The Act passed the House of Representatives in March of 1998 by a unanimous vote and was then referred to the Senate Judiciary Committee, but the Committee never voted on the measure or held any hearings.

In April 1999, Congressman Conyers reintroduced the Traffic Stops Statistics Study Act (HR 1443), sponsored in the Senate (S.821) by Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ) and Russell Feingold (D-WI). Passage of the Act should be viewed as a first step toward addressing a difficult problem. While it does not regulate traffic stops, set standards for them, or require implementation of particular policies, it does require the gathering of solid, comprehensive information, so that discussion of the problem might move beyond the question of whether or not the problem exists, to the question of how to fix the problem.

THIRD: Pass Legislation on Traffic Stops in Every State

Even if the Traffic Stop Statistics Study Act does not become federal law, it has already inspired action at the state and local level. The ACLU calls upon legislators in every state to pass laws that will allow the practice of traffic enforcement to be statistically monitored on an ongoing basis.

In North Carolina, a bill requiring data collection on all traffic stops was passed by overwhelming majorities in both houses of the state legislature and signed into law by the governor on April 21, 1999. This became the first law anywhere in the nation to require the kind of effort that will yield a full, detailed statistical portrait of the use of traffic stops.

Similar bills have been introduced in Pennsylvania, Illinois, Virginia, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Maryland, Arkansas, Texas, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Florida, and California. Efforts are under way in a number of other states to have bills introduced this year.

I have had the fortune, or misfortune, of being in a car once when this happened - I was in the back- they never saw the white guy until they looked in the car.

Lame pretext, guns drawn, obviously "black poeple in luxury car" was the reason for the stop- it was so obvious, even YOU would have problems rationalizing it away.

I still get ribbed about this at work as the 'white guy that was stopped for driving while black" and having a "permanent ghetto pass" for it

But, I have a feeling no amount of evidence, even if they police had white hoods on and were burnign crosses on the hoods of the car, would at all convince you that it happens.

1) Is the first statement accurate? ["The underclass, the class that must remain oppressed for the triumph of the dominant economic class, will continue to be the object of crime control as long as the dominant class seeks to perpetuate itself, that is, as long as capitalism exists"] Why or why not?

No, this is Marxist conspiracist nonsense. The "ruling class" does not benefit from the oppression of (or even the existence of) an underclass. Crime control is focused on poor communities because crime is concentrated in poor communities. It's not rich fat cats that cause crime in those poor communities. It's a predatory minority that's part of those poor communities.

2) Is the second statement accurate? ["America . . . is . . . a classic example of heavy-handed use of state and private power to control minorities and suppress their continuing opposition to the hegemony of white racist ideology."]Why or why not?

The only place I see this being accurate is in some drug sentencing laws. A drug dealer shouldn't get a harsher sentence just because he's caught with crack (a "black drug") than powder cocaine (a "white drug").

3) Is it fair to say that violent crime or street crime should be controlled more than white collar crime or crime that is not easily detected?

I do think that violent crime is more important to control, because of the effect it has on the victims. I don't put prostitution or drugs in this category. So, no, I disagree with the distinction being drawn between "street crime" and "white collar crime." I would say that the priorities should be: violent crime first, then property crimes (including "white collar" theft), then finally "quality of life" crimes (not quite accurately called "victimless") like drug distribution and prostitution.

4) Do you personally feel more threatened by streetwalkers or by call girls?; or by drug dealers on a street corner or by a drug dealer in a high rise office building?

I don't generally feel threatened by any of them, but then I don't encounter any of them most days. Probably a better question for someone who lives in a neighborhood where drug dealers and streetwalkers ply their trade.

5) Do the poor, of whatever race, have more difficulty in the criminal justice system than those with more means? Is it possible, or even desirable, to address giving the rich and the poor exactly equal treatment before the bench?

Sure, everything's easier if you've got money. That said, the largest factor in poor and/or black people having "more difficulty in the criminal justice system" is that they're more likely to have committed a crime. Criminals are a minority everywhere, but they're a larger minority in these underclass communities.

6) Is there a legal system you can point to in a major, multi-racial nation (over 50 million citizens) that is exemplary in its handling of race and income levels for defendants? If so, identify it and give us details.

Don't know. I would dispute CruisingRam's contention that the U.S. is a uniquely racist country. I'm not saying racism doesn't exist here, but I'd say we're less racist than most other human societies that have ever existed.

To clarify- I say we are not unique in racism- racism is a condition as long as there are humans on the planet it seems- but we are unique in our own form of racism- ours is based on the slavery system we had in our country- there are lots of countries that had slavery- our was unique as it was slowly enshrined to mean BLACK slavery.

In Russia, for instance- they had slaves- but they were all white, for the most part- could have had black slaves- just never heard of one.

And this means? Since minorities only make up a fraction of the population (blacks I believe are 12%) would you expect it to be any different? In fact it would be nearly impossible for it to be any other way – correct?




I agree and they all deserve the same long stretches in JAIL.