Full Version: PKK- freedom fighters or terrorists>
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar...amp;link=125117
Interesting article- the Euro press is loath to call the PKK terrorists, though the Euro Union has labeled them "terrorists".
Considering that the Kurds have had alot of atrocities done to them, similar to the Jews or the American Indian or the Armenians- yet, te Kurds are the largest ethnic group in the world without a homeland of thier own. 27-35 million poeple, 20% of the population of Turkey, about the same in Iraq, and are also in Syria, Iran and Armenia.
1) Should there be a homeland created for all Kurds, with the same guarunteed rights of return as Israel? IF no, why not?
2) Considering that the poeple in the PKK have centuries of persecution by the poeple they are bombing, is thier cause legit? Could they be considered "freedom fighters?"
Interesting article- the Euro press is loath to call the PKK terrorists, though the Euro Union has labeled them "terrorists".
Considering that the Kurds have had alot of atrocities done to them, similar to the Jews or the American Indian or the Armenians- yet, te Kurds are the largest ethnic group in the world without a homeland of thier own. 27-35 million poeple, 20% of the population of Turkey, about the same in Iraq, and are also in Syria, Iran and Armenia.
1) Should there be a homeland created for all Kurds, with the same guarunteed rights of return as Israel? IF no, why not?
2) Considering that the poeple in the PKK have centuries of persecution by the poeple they are bombing, is thier cause legit? Could they be considered "freedom fighters?"
1) Should there be a homeland created for all Kurds, with the same guarunteed rights of return as Israel? IF no, why not?
Yes. If the Kurds in those area's they control democratically wish for autonomy from Turkey, Iraq or Syria, then there is no Earthly reason why the Kurds should not be allowed their own state. The parallel with Israel is apt.
2) Considering that the poeple in the PKK have centuries of persecution by the poeple they are bombing, is thier cause legit? Could they be considered "freedom fighters?"
No. There is no excuse for using violence for a political goal when democratic means remain available. Iraq is supposed to be a democracy now, as is Turkey. Syria might yet be an unashamed tyranny but if the Turks want to be considered a nation worthy of joining in the EU then the EU must hold them to their democratic duty. I hate the EU myself, but this is the reality these people have yet to grasp. In a real democracy, the majority has the right to establish autonomy, whether for themselves or for others.
Frankly, I believe there is plenty of blame to go around for this mess. The Kurds are their own worst enemies. Stuck in an Islamic mentality, their first option is and always has been violence. The Turks are much the same. Turkey, in which ever historical or political configeration you care to name has always been a militant society prone to using violence to establish the dominion of the Turkish people. That might have worked once upon a time when old Daddy Ataturk was boss, but in the C21, things are supposed to be different.
What makes me laugh about this matter is how much anti American sentiment it has generated. The Americans have asked the Turks not to attack delicate Iraq and this is being trumpeted in Turkey as the evil Yankee imperialists keeping the good Turks down.
When Israel retaliated against Hizb'Allah, the European media, whipped up by left wing 'yankophobes' were all over the story as an example of the evil of the USA and its president. With this matter, although Turkey is already engaged in cross border military action, the Euro media watches with indifferent lethargy. No Jews involved and the USA is only peripheral to events.
Yes. If the Kurds in those area's they control democratically wish for autonomy from Turkey, Iraq or Syria, then there is no Earthly reason why the Kurds should not be allowed their own state. The parallel with Israel is apt.
2) Considering that the poeple in the PKK have centuries of persecution by the poeple they are bombing, is thier cause legit? Could they be considered "freedom fighters?"
No. There is no excuse for using violence for a political goal when democratic means remain available. Iraq is supposed to be a democracy now, as is Turkey. Syria might yet be an unashamed tyranny but if the Turks want to be considered a nation worthy of joining in the EU then the EU must hold them to their democratic duty. I hate the EU myself, but this is the reality these people have yet to grasp. In a real democracy, the majority has the right to establish autonomy, whether for themselves or for others.
Frankly, I believe there is plenty of blame to go around for this mess. The Kurds are their own worst enemies. Stuck in an Islamic mentality, their first option is and always has been violence. The Turks are much the same. Turkey, in which ever historical or political configeration you care to name has always been a militant society prone to using violence to establish the dominion of the Turkish people. That might have worked once upon a time when old Daddy Ataturk was boss, but in the C21, things are supposed to be different.
What makes me laugh about this matter is how much anti American sentiment it has generated. The Americans have asked the Turks not to attack delicate Iraq and this is being trumpeted in Turkey as the evil Yankee imperialists keeping the good Turks down.
When Israel retaliated against Hizb'Allah, the European media, whipped up by left wing 'yankophobes' were all over the story as an example of the evil of the USA and its president. With this matter, although Turkey is already engaged in cross border military action, the Euro media watches with indifferent lethargy. No Jews involved and the USA is only peripheral to events.
1) Should there be a homeland created for all Kurds, with the same guarunteed rights of return as Israel? IF no, why not?
It would be nice, yes. But the problem is, that Israel had the means to form their own state, as well as the right (though that is a somewhat contested topic as of the moment). Kurds have only the right, and not the means. We cannot give these means to them distracted as we are with our current middle-eastern troubles, nor can they empower themselves, with the heavy hand of Turkey resting so menacingly above them. However, despite the fact that their cause is futile, they will continue to fight on, in some cases with lethal force, so long as they remain marginalized, ostracized members of their respective nations. I'm seeing yet another example of a "should be" that will never come to pass.
2) Considering that the poeple in the PKK have centuries of persecution by the poeple they are bombing, is thier cause legit? Could they be considered "freedom fighters?"
Though it is abhorrent, violence is really the only method that the Kurds have to protest their mistreatment. The Turkish government, it must be said, has never had a very high tolerance policy for peaceful Kurdish protest (or protest from any minority, for that matter). The PKK is killing people, and though that may be wrong, in the eyes of some, what else can they do? With this method, they are sending a clear, concise message to Turkey; either give us our freedom, or kill us, because we refuse to tolerate any other option.
I fear the outcome of this ultimatum will be bloody.
It would be nice, yes. But the problem is, that Israel had the means to form their own state, as well as the right (though that is a somewhat contested topic as of the moment). Kurds have only the right, and not the means. We cannot give these means to them distracted as we are with our current middle-eastern troubles, nor can they empower themselves, with the heavy hand of Turkey resting so menacingly above them. However, despite the fact that their cause is futile, they will continue to fight on, in some cases with lethal force, so long as they remain marginalized, ostracized members of their respective nations. I'm seeing yet another example of a "should be" that will never come to pass.
2) Considering that the poeple in the PKK have centuries of persecution by the poeple they are bombing, is thier cause legit? Could they be considered "freedom fighters?"
Though it is abhorrent, violence is really the only method that the Kurds have to protest their mistreatment. The Turkish government, it must be said, has never had a very high tolerance policy for peaceful Kurdish protest (or protest from any minority, for that matter). The PKK is killing people, and though that may be wrong, in the eyes of some, what else can they do? With this method, they are sending a clear, concise message to Turkey; either give us our freedom, or kill us, because we refuse to tolerate any other option.
I fear the outcome of this ultimatum will be bloody.
[.[/quote]
QUOTE(akalae @ Oct 24 2007, 09:17 PM) 
1) Should there be a homeland created for all Kurds, with the same guarunteed rights of return as Israel? IF no, why not?
It would be nice, yes. But the problem is, that Israel had the means to form their own state, as well as the right (though that is a somewhat contested topic as of the moment). Kurds have only the right, and not the means. We cannot give these means to them distracted as we are with our current middle-eastern troubles, nor can they empower themselves, with the heavy hand of Turkey resting so menacingly above them. However, despite the fact that their cause is futile, they will continue to fight on, in some cases with lethal force, so long as they remain marginalized, ostracized members of their respective nations. I'm seeing yet another example of a "should be" that will never come to pass.
2) Considering that the poeple in the PKK have centuries of persecution by the poeple they are bombing, is thier cause legit? Could they be considered "freedom fighters?"
Though it is abhorrent, violence is really the only method that the Kurds have to protest their mistreatment. The Turkish government, it must be said, has never had a very high tolerance policy for peaceful Kurdish protest (or protest from any minority, for that matter). The PKK is killing people, and though that may be wrong, in the eyes of some, what else can they do? With this method, they are sending a clear, concise message to Turkey; either give us our freedom, or kill us, because we refuse to tolerate any other option.
I fear the outcome of this ultimatum will be bloody.
It would be nice, yes. But the problem is, that Israel had the means to form their own state, as well as the right (though that is a somewhat contested topic as of the moment). Kurds have only the right, and not the means. We cannot give these means to them distracted as we are with our current middle-eastern troubles, nor can they empower themselves, with the heavy hand of Turkey resting so menacingly above them. However, despite the fact that their cause is futile, they will continue to fight on, in some cases with lethal force, so long as they remain marginalized, ostracized members of their respective nations. I'm seeing yet another example of a "should be" that will never come to pass.
2) Considering that the poeple in the PKK have centuries of persecution by the poeple they are bombing, is thier cause legit? Could they be considered "freedom fighters?"
Though it is abhorrent, violence is really the only method that the Kurds have to protest their mistreatment. The Turkish government, it must be said, has never had a very high tolerance policy for peaceful Kurdish protest (or protest from any minority, for that matter). The PKK is killing people, and though that may be wrong, in the eyes of some, what else can they do? With this method, they are sending a clear, concise message to Turkey; either give us our freedom, or kill us, because we refuse to tolerate any other option.
I fear the outcome of this ultimatum will be bloody.
1) Should there be a homeland created for all Kurds, with the same guarunteed rights of return as Israel? IF no, why not?
"Created for all Kurds" No. Not only is it beyond the realm of practical and political feasibility, but outside powers carving chunks of territory out of sovereign nations to create an ethnic "homeland" would not be a solution - it would simply focus the violence and instability, and drag the powers that are involved into a vicious ethno-nationalist fight.
However, the Kurdish region in N. Iraq enjoys a significant degree of autonomy - with its relative stability and an infrastructure that is in better shape than that in much of the rest of Iraq, it has attracted plenty of Kurds from neighboring countries to its cities to work and aid in the emerging Kurdish entity. Turkey feels as threatened by this turn of events as much as it does by any series of pin-prick attacks by the PKK.
It is important to keep in mind that the Kurds are the largest ethnic minority in Turkey, and, since the foundation of the state, the only one that potentially threatens its territorial integrity. Almost immediately after Mustafa Kemal rallied the nation, kicked out the Greeks and forced the WWI allies to recognize the new Turkey at the Treaty of Lausanne, the country was wracked with major Kurdish revolts. The Sheikh Said rebellion in 1925, the Agri Dag revolt that lasted from 1927 to 1930 and the Dersim rebellion in 1937 all cemented in the minds of the government and the military that the Kurds were "the" internal threat to the Turkish nation.
A legitimate Kurdish governing entity in N. Iraq, with formal autonomy within a loose Iraqi state with an education system that teaches in Kurdish up through the university level strikes at the very core of Ataturk's creation of virulent Turkish ethno-nationalism that is intrinsic to the values of the Turkish state.
2) Considering that the poeple in the PKK have centuries of persecution by the poeple they are bombing, is thier cause legit? Could they be considered "freedom fighters"?
The term "freedom fighters" is more of a sound bite than an accurate description. But the the PKK campaign in southeast Turkey is classic separatist insurgency, with limited goals.
Although the PKK has used terrorist tactics during its campaign - especially in the mid '90's, when they followed a typically brutal Maoist strategy of killing representatives of the state (i.e. schoolteachers, doctors, civil servants, village guards - look at Sendero Luminoso for another example) that were found in the villages and towns of the southeast. However, if you are tracking current events, they are primarily targeting Turkish soldiers these days, not civilians.
In any case, the the PKK would never have reached today's degree of resurgence if Turkey had not failed to implement changes (thus far on paper only) toward its treatment of its Kurdish minority. After the capture of Ocalan, the PKK fragmented and became virtually incapable of conducting operations. The Turkish government failed to exploit a golden opportunity to truly bring all of its Kurdish citizens into the fold, and the re-emergence of violent Kurdish nationalism within Turkey is stark testimony to the abject failure of Turkish domestic policies.
"Created for all Kurds" No. Not only is it beyond the realm of practical and political feasibility, but outside powers carving chunks of territory out of sovereign nations to create an ethnic "homeland" would not be a solution - it would simply focus the violence and instability, and drag the powers that are involved into a vicious ethno-nationalist fight.
However, the Kurdish region in N. Iraq enjoys a significant degree of autonomy - with its relative stability and an infrastructure that is in better shape than that in much of the rest of Iraq, it has attracted plenty of Kurds from neighboring countries to its cities to work and aid in the emerging Kurdish entity. Turkey feels as threatened by this turn of events as much as it does by any series of pin-prick attacks by the PKK.
It is important to keep in mind that the Kurds are the largest ethnic minority in Turkey, and, since the foundation of the state, the only one that potentially threatens its territorial integrity. Almost immediately after Mustafa Kemal rallied the nation, kicked out the Greeks and forced the WWI allies to recognize the new Turkey at the Treaty of Lausanne, the country was wracked with major Kurdish revolts. The Sheikh Said rebellion in 1925, the Agri Dag revolt that lasted from 1927 to 1930 and the Dersim rebellion in 1937 all cemented in the minds of the government and the military that the Kurds were "the" internal threat to the Turkish nation.
A legitimate Kurdish governing entity in N. Iraq, with formal autonomy within a loose Iraqi state with an education system that teaches in Kurdish up through the university level strikes at the very core of Ataturk's creation of virulent Turkish ethno-nationalism that is intrinsic to the values of the Turkish state.
2) Considering that the poeple in the PKK have centuries of persecution by the poeple they are bombing, is thier cause legit? Could they be considered "freedom fighters"?
The term "freedom fighters" is more of a sound bite than an accurate description. But the the PKK campaign in southeast Turkey is classic separatist insurgency, with limited goals.
Although the PKK has used terrorist tactics during its campaign - especially in the mid '90's, when they followed a typically brutal Maoist strategy of killing representatives of the state (i.e. schoolteachers, doctors, civil servants, village guards - look at Sendero Luminoso for another example) that were found in the villages and towns of the southeast. However, if you are tracking current events, they are primarily targeting Turkish soldiers these days, not civilians.
In any case, the the PKK would never have reached today's degree of resurgence if Turkey had not failed to implement changes (thus far on paper only) toward its treatment of its Kurdish minority. After the capture of Ocalan, the PKK fragmented and became virtually incapable of conducting operations. The Turkish government failed to exploit a golden opportunity to truly bring all of its Kurdish citizens into the fold, and the re-emergence of violent Kurdish nationalism within Turkey is stark testimony to the abject failure of Turkish domestic policies.
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